helios969
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Post by helios969 on Oct 1, 2024 7:36:01 GMT
I don't think the desire to cultivate new fans is a zero sum game. Snip. I'll bet you a beer this game doesn't come close to DAI sales numbers...not that either of us is likely able to lay claim to the wager. I like to use the Uncharted series as the ideal approach to cultivating a fanbase. UC1: ~4 million; UC2: ~7 million; UC3: ~6 million; UC 4: ~15 million. It's wiki so take it for what it's worth but I do know the last installment crushed it in sales. And that's what you're looking for. The DA franchise has always been disjointed, but the glue tying it together has always been the potential large choices having significant impact. Without the glue it falls apart. We'll just have to agree to disagree...I'm just not someone who will accept anything a developer throws at me without voicing my displeasure.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 1, 2024 7:46:08 GMT
I don't think the desire to cultivate new fans is a zero sum game. Snip. I'll bet you a beer this game doesn't come close to DAI sales numbers...not that either of us is likely able to lay claim to the wager. I like to use the Uncharted series as the ideal approach to cultivating a fanbase. UC1: ~4 million; UC2: ~7 million; UC3: ~6 million; UC 4: ~15 million. It's wiki so take it for what it's worth but I do know the last installment crushed it in sales. And that's what you're looking for. The DA franchise has always been disjointed, but the glue tying it together has always been the potential large choices having significant impact. Without the glue it falls apart. We'll just have to agree to disagree...I'm just not someone who will accept anything a developer throws at me without voicing my displeasure. But has the choices had a long term impact on the series beyond their original game? Only the choice which leads to who the Warden you get to sacrifice really counts and even then I still feel there is a rather significant caveat.
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Post by QuizzyBunny on Oct 1, 2024 8:21:35 GMT
And you can't even set what CLASS your Inquisitor was! *goes back and checks*
....Holy Hell....you can't! How did we miss that?
Calling it right now - they'll make the Inquisitor a mage by default. I mean, that's what I made so it doesn't really affect me, but still. Those that made rogues/warriors I can understand the frustration and disappointment they must feel if that's the case.
....Which...makes me wonder if that is the case, who did drink from the well? Not that it matters, given what we've been told.
My bet is rather that the class won't matter, we will never get to see the Inky in any kind of fighting capacity... which makes me think that their involvement is very limited. Maybe we'll just be allowed to control them during a meeting or something like that. Would feel anti-climactic for sure, but then again maybe we should just be grateful to see them again at all.
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Post by illuminated11 on Oct 1, 2024 8:24:16 GMT
Choices you’ve made in past games have never influenced the main plot beats of sequels. They can have an impact on specific characters, such as Morrigan or Alistair, and influence the geopolitical backdrop, but the plot always develops the same way. The OGB was wrapped up in Inquisition and could never factor meaningfully into the overarching storyline due to its quantum nature.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 1, 2024 9:05:02 GMT
I've been giving this a lot of thought and I feel I'm most annoyed by the reason they gave for this. Essentially, the game is now set in the north so naturally the previous decisions don't matter. However, this is a stupid argument because it still takes place in a wider world. In fact, I would be surprised if the south was totally oblivious and unaffected by what transpires in the north concerning the returned gods, particularly since they seem hell bent on spreading the Blight. It was a feature of all previous Blights except the 5th which we took part in that whilst the Arch-demon arose in one part of Thedas, there were multiple breakouts as a result elsewhere. Also, other games had companions, antagonists and NPCs from elsewhere in Thedas.
In DAO we had Sten from Par Vollen and Zevran from Antiva among our companions. Duncan was a native of Rivain, as was Isabella. Caladrius was from Tevinter and exporting slaves from the alienage back there (I always thought that encountering a slave in Tevinter who had originally been part of that consignment would be a good way to connect the games). Riorden had come from the Orlesian Wardens, who were sitting on the border unable to enter because permission had been withheld. There were plenty of codices about other parts of Thedas written by Genetivi, whom we then encounter in game.
In DA2 Hawke was a refugee from the Blight. An immediate connection to the previous game. They chose to have Flemeth involved from DAO. Perhaps she was essential to the greater narrative but what about Anders, Justice, Merrill and Isabella? They all featured in DAO/DAA but there was no real reason why they had to use them in DA2. They could have used any possessed mage seeking out their lover in Kirkwall. Why did it have to be our Dalish Warden's clan they involved in the narrative? Why use Isabella as a companion or bring back Zevran for the Crow plot? That set expectations in fans for the future in Thedas with returning characters who had played a major or minor role in the previous game. Meanwhile we once again had characters involved not from the immediate area or even the south. They had the Arishok, the leader of the military for the whole Qun, sitting around in the city for the best part of 4-5 years, for very weird reasons but regardless he was not from the south. Fenris was an escaped Tevinter slave who had also spent time on Seheron. His master, Danarius, a Tevinter Magister, later rolled up with impunity when the place was under martial law by the Templars. Despite the implausibility of him getting away with this, nevertheless he was there. So, being in a completely different part of Thedas isn't a barrier to inclusion. At the end of the game it was the choice of the writers to imply there was some link between the disappearance of the Warden and Hawke, which was silly as it turned out there was none. However, that raised expectations in fans that the Warden would be included in some meaningful way in the next game, when I had been happy to accept the postscript to DAA that one day they simply disappeared (which I assume meant they had gone on their Calling but could also have referred to Witch Hunt). Of course, DA2 was when it first became apparent that if they wanted to follow a particular narrative that contradicted choices in the previous game they would. They could have used a different person as the left hand of the Divine if Leliana was killed in DAO (like they used an alternative to Wrex and Legion in the Mass Effect series) or just use a completely new character for the role, but instead they just brought her back regardless with no explanation until the end of the next game.
Then on to DAI. Major companions are in the game who originate in northern Thedas: Dorian and Iron Bull (even if he has been spending the last 10 years in the south as a spy) A major antagonist and faction come from Tevinter. An advisor, Josephine, comes from Antiva. Once again they had many returning characters that didn't need to be there but clearly they included as fan service. Varric was very much a case in point. There was no suggestion at the end of DA2 that Cassandra was taking him to see the Divine. She got his story and that was it. Instead he became the "tag along" that then became the alternative constant hero in the game since he is now in DAV too, for no good reason because he was from the south and is now Viscount of Kirkwall.
Yet apparently he is running the show at the beginning of the game because he says it was his decision to appoint Rook as his deputy. What is Varric leading that he needs a deputy? Why was Harding demoted? It was Harding who stood alongside the Inquisitor when they stabbed the map in the final scene of Trespasser, not Varric. Why oh why is it Varric who is responsible for talking down Solas and not the Inquisitor? Why wasn't the Inquisitor up there in Minrathous? How is Harding meant to talk about her previous experiences except in the vaguest terms? I know that much of what Hawke's companions did after DA2 amounted to just a few lines of dialogue with Varric in DAI but at least we were able to ask and get an appropriate response.
I don't see why those three decisions are any more important than, say, who drank from the Well of Sorrows, or whether there was an OGB Kieran at one time because Flemeth absorbed the soul from him. What happened to it? The romance is not really important except, possibly, in the case of Solas, only resulting in one snippet of dialogue or reference in a codex, allegedly what they wanted to avoid along with cameos not relative to the plot. The decision about retaining or disbanding the Inquisition is only going to be relevant if the Divine decides to use it to send help to the north. Otherwise, considering it was either a choice of having greater resources to seek for Solas as against greater secrecy in doing so, the decision is now redundant. What difference is the choice the Inquisitor made about Solas going to make other than a bit of forced dialogue or possibly some action on their part that Rook may be forced to prevent?
I still don't understand why they couldn't have used a few more choices from the Keep, if only with respect to DAI, because DAV is a continuation of that story, but now the latest game seems detached from it and from the wider world of Thedas for no good reason.
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mrobnoxiousuk
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Post by mrobnoxiousuk on Oct 1, 2024 9:25:23 GMT
Too many people think being acerbically rude in a discussion is actually sharp wit when it is just an bare excuse for being a twat of the highest order, personally attacking someone rather than their arguments is base and cowardly or if you try to dismiss someone by rolling out the tired old #bulletpoint no 3 to discredit their argument rather than cogently using counter points and bring someone round through reasoned debate.
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Post by illuminated11 on Oct 1, 2024 9:54:22 GMT
I've been giving this a lot of thought and I feel I'm most annoyed by the reason they gave for this. Essentially, the game is now set in the north so naturally the previous decisions don't matter. However, this is a stupid argument because it still takes place in a wider world. In fact, I would be surprised if the south was totally oblivious and unaffected by what transpires in the north concerning the returned gods, particularly since they seem hell bent on spreading the Blight. It was a feature of all previous Blights except the 5th which we took part in that whilst the Arch-demon arose in one part of Thedas, there were multiple breakouts as a result elsewhere. Also, other games had companions, antagonists and NPCs from elsewhere in Thedas. In DAO we had Sten from Par Vollen and Zevran from Antiva among our companions. Duncan was a native of Rivain, as was Isabella. Caladrius was from Tevinter and exporting slaves from the alienage back there (I always thought that encountering a slave in Tevinter who had originally been part of that consignment would be a good way to connect the games). Riorden had come from the Orlesian Wardens, who were sitting on the border unable to enter because permission had been withheld. There were plenty of codices about other parts of Thedas written by Genetivi, whom we then encounter in game. In DA2 Hawke was a refugee from the Blight. An immediate connection to the previous game. They chose to have Flemeth involved from DAO. Perhaps she was essential to the greater narrative but what about Anders, Justice, Merrill and Isabella? They all featured in DAO/DAA but there was no real reason why they had to use them in DA2. They could have used any possessed mage seeking out their lover in Kirkwall. Why did it have to be our Dalish Warden's clan they involved in the narrative? Why use Isabella as a companion or bring back Zevran for the Crow plot? That set expectations in fans for the future in Thedas with returning characters who had played a major or minor role in the previous game. Meanwhile we once again had characters involved not from the immediate area or even the south. They had the Arishok, the leader of the military for the whole Qun, sitting around in the city for the best part of 4-5 years, for very weird reasons but regardless he was not from the south. Fenris was an escaped Tevinter slave who had also spent time on Seheron. His master, Danarius, a Tevinter Magister, later rolled up with impunity when the place was under martial law by the Templars. Despite the implausibility of him getting away with this, nevertheless he was there. So, being in a completely different part of Thedas isn't a barrier to inclusion. At the end of the game it was the choice of the writers to imply there was some link between the disappearance of the Warden and Hawke, which was silly as it turned out there was none. However, that raised expectations in fans that the Warden would be included in some meaningful way in the next game, when I had been happy to accept the postscript to DAA that one day they simply disappeared (which I assume meant they had gone on their Calling but could also have referred to Witch Hunt). Of course, DA2 was when it first became apparent that if they wanted to follow a particular narrative that contradicted choices in the previous game they would. They could have used a different person as the left hand of the Divine if Leliana was killed in DAO (like they used an alternative to Wrex and Legion in the Mass Effect series) or just use a completely new character for the role, but instead they just brought her back regardless with no explanation until the end of the next game. Then on to DAI. Major companions are in the game who originate in northern Thedas: Dorian and Iron Bull (even if he has been spending the last 10 years in the south as a spy) A major antagonist and faction come from Tevinter. An advisor, Josephine, comes from Antiva. Once again they had many returning characters that didn't need to be there but clearly they included as fan service. Varric was very much a case in point. There was no suggestion at the end of DA2 that Cassandra was taking him to see the Divine. She got his story and that was it. Instead he became the "tag along" that then became the alternative constant hero in the game since he is now in DAV too, for no good reason because he was from the south and is now Viscount of Kirkwall. Yet apparently he is running the show at the beginning of the game because he says it was his decision to appoint Rook as his deputy. What is Varric leading that he needs a deputy? Why was Harding demoted? It was Harding who stood alongside the Inquisitor when they stabbed the map in the final scene of Trespasser, not Varric. Why oh why is it Varric who is responsible for talking down Solas and not the Inquisitor? Why wasn't the Inquisitor up there in Minrathous? How is Harding meant to talk about her previous experiences except in the vaguest terms? I know that much of what Hawke's companions did after DA2 amounted to just a few lines of dialogue with Varric in DAI but at least we were able to ask and get an appropriate response. I don't see why those three decisions are any more important than, say, who drank from the Well of Sorrows, or whether there was an OGB Kieran at one time because Flemeth absorbed the soul from him. What happened to it? The romance is not really important except, possibly, in the case of Solas, only resulting in one snippet of dialogue or reference in a codex, allegedly what they wanted to avoid along with cameos not relative to the plot. The decision about retaining or disbanding the Inquisition is only going to be relevant if the Divine decides to use it to send help to the north. Otherwise, considering it was either a choice of having greater resources to seek for Solas as against greater secrecy in doing so, the decision is now redundant. What difference is the choice the Inquisitor made about Solas going to make other than a bit of forced dialogue or possibly some action on their part that Rook may be forced to prevent? I still don't understand why they couldn't have used a few more choices from the Keep, if only with respect to DAI, because DAV is a continuation of that story, but now the latest game seems detached from it and from the wider world of Thedas for no good reason. I agree their justification feels hollow, but there are also a couple assumptions being made here. Characters can still have connections to the south. I don’t think they’re suggesting otherwise. The fact that Harding and Varric are there is proof of that. (Also I’m pretty sure Varric resigns as Viscount in The Missing, and it was always meant to be temporary anyway.) Other characters from past games can still show up as well, they just can’t be too quantum. Sera, Dorian, Isabela would all work in that regard. Moreover, there’s a difference between not mentioning critical player choices (choices that happened ten years prior) and not mentioning critical plot beats. Harding can easily talk about major events like Corypheus assault on Haven and the trek to Skyhold, because these events always happen. She’ll likely refer to the Divine by her title and never reference her by name, much like how Dorian never specifies the name of the Black Divine. Not to mention, Harding was a scout, and not privy to most of the major choices the Inquisitor made in-game. It’s much more likely she’ll talk about her personal experience within the Inquisition and the impact the chaos of the Breach caused for her close family and friends, and draw parallels to current events that way, than she would discuss the Inquisitor running off to an elven temple to do who knows what. Leliana and how they handled her is probably a factor in decisions made for this game. They’ve talked in the past about how they regretted bringing her back without explanation. As for why Varric is there instead of the Inquisitor… we just don’t know, and we don’t know the extent of his relationship with Rook. But I imagine the second in command line is more an exaggeration than meant to be taken literally. Hyperbole is kind of Varric’s main shtick.
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Post by fairdragon on Oct 1, 2024 11:59:29 GMT
You might find this video interesting. Not hysterically ranting, just saying what I feel in a measured, reasonable way. As he says, he is still going to play the game but it won't be the same for him. A really good video. Thank you. I 100% agree and take a look at the channel.
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Post by rekkampum on Oct 1, 2024 13:25:16 GMT
So, confirming my suspicions about the current game being incapable of shaking its previous identity, I just read IGN's article on DAV's development history where Epler basically says that their biggest problem with worldstates was essentially tied to the last iteration of the game and having to account for other players: "One thing that always comes up is world state. How do I know if I'm playing with my friend? Do I need to wait for them to catch up? Are they making their own decisions? But even when we were still more multiplayer-focused, we did still want to tell a story about Solas. It just became a lot more challenging because, again, multiplayer games and single-player games have different pressures, have different needs as a project, as a story. And once you add other people's perspectives into it, it becomes even more challenging.” I think it's a bit clear that them ditching worldstates altogether is a leftover from that and not really tied to any fears about the current story. Pure speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised given how things have been going if they probably just didn't have the time or resources to devote to it after the game was restructured.
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 1, 2024 13:50:19 GMT
Moreover, there’s a difference between not mentioning critical player choices (choices that happened ten years prior) and not mentioning critical plot beats. I agree the ones you mention can be talked about as the same in every world state. However, I was specifically thinking about the events which could be different and where characters from previous games have been used in the next game to advance these. Leaving out the Well of Sorrows and Kieran substantially reduce the Morrigan backstory. As I said, whether there was a OGB or not is important because Flemeth absorbed it. It was also clear that Morrigan became a true mother to him, whether OGB or not, but the former really demonstrated this when she challenged Flemeth over it. As for the Well of Sorrows, I actually think that is way more important than whether you disbanded or kept the Inquisition, or should have been, but it seems the sum total of benefits for the Inquisitor drinking was reading a few old texts and the password to Fen'Harel's sancutary, with no downside at all despite the warnings from Cole and Dorian, plus Solas' admonishment after the event. As I've said, the Disband or Keep option was really linked to the search for Solas. Obviously it made no difference whatsoever to the outcome there. However, I suppose there is an outside chance that Divine Victoria will send her private army to assist the Veilguard if it wasn't disbanded, so perhaps that will influence how much damage ensues in the confrontation in which they are used. The romance one without accompanying Keep choices is going to just result in one canon choice by the writing team in each case. Leaving aside Solas, strangely enough Dorian is the only one that is consistent with our experience in DAI, because he does return to Tevinter regardless. However, consider some of the others: Sera - Can break up with you if you refuse to deny the Temple of Mythal. They will probably ignore this and you always get married. Blackwall - Can be left in prison, allowed out and continue in the Inquisition, or made to join the Wardens. Clearly, he will be freed and I suspect stayed with the Inquisition rather than confirmed in the Wardens Cullen - Less of a problem and I assume they assume you cured him of his addiction and then got married. Cassandra - Really tricky since she can become the Divine, be working to restore the Seekers or neither, but since she does seem to pull back from the romance because of her duties, just maintaining a warm friendship thereafter, I assume they will go with that. Josephine - Varied outcomes for the family business but I'll admit that isn't really that important. Probably just in southern Antiva or still in Orlais. The Iron Bull - Already know what they have chosen for this one: Weakes preferred outcome. Also, if you don't romance him then I assume they still assume the same because he would have romanced Dorian instead. So, whilst the LI will no doubt get a mention, it is not consistent with what many players experienced in the game. I dare say the decision with regard to Solas will impact on whether the Inquisitor is presented and remembered by others as ruthless or benign, even though in the case of my male Lavellan he was a merciful judge and good friend of Solas right up until he learnt that he had been lying to him and intended betraying him by destroying his world. Then he declared he was going to stop him because he felt the entire population of Thedas was more important than Solas' survival. I wonder if their portrayal of him will reflect this on such scant information?
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Post by gervaise21 on Oct 1, 2024 13:53:20 GMT
I think it's a bit clear that them ditching worldstates altogether is a leftover from that and not really tied to any fears about the current story. Pure speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised given how things have been going if they probably just didn't have the time or resources to devote to it after the game was restructured. I think it was definitely due to having been working on a multi-player game and then switching back, by which time it was too late and would involve too much work to incorporate either the Keep or a more substantial number of choices taken from it. However, they won't admit that so we get the lame excuses instead.
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Post by rekkampum on Oct 1, 2024 14:02:49 GMT
I think it's a bit clear that them ditching worldstates altogether is a leftover from that and not really tied to any fears about the current story. Pure speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised given how things have been going if they probably just didn't have the time or resources to devote to it after the game was restructured. I think it was definitely due to having been working on a multi-player game and the switching back, by which time it was too late and would involve too much work to incorporate either the Keep or a more substantial number of choices taken from it. However, they won't admit that so we get the lame excuses instead. Yeah, just digesting it and there apparently were, in addition to that, so many problems in general with how BW was approaching the game's writing, to the point Gaider even made a statement about it on Twitter. So all that, a pandemic, a writer's strike, and this dramatic restructuring taking place really shows it's a miracle we're even getting a solid narrative at all. I just wish Busche would've been honest and not fudged it - or seen the devs double down later on- because she really made it seem like there were going to be adequate compromises, and as we see, there are none.
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Post by sloth on Oct 1, 2024 14:44:34 GMT
I think it's a bit clear that them ditching worldstates altogether is a leftover from that and not really tied to any fears about the current story. Pure speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised given how things have been going if they probably just didn't have the time or resources to devote to it after the game was restructured. I think it was definitely due to having been working on a multi-player game and the switching back, by which time it was too late and would involve too much work to incorporate either the Keep or a more substantial number of choices taken from it. However, they won't admit that so we get the lame excuses instead. yep. the way they are addressing this topic and dealing with the complains it's... weird, to avoid another term... saying things like "you shouldn't ask for your favorite character to cameo. Do you want to see that character killed?" or "I won't bring back characters and not to do something dramatic with them". I mean... I thought they played the first three games? Because we had past characters doing a lot of things, from "just cameos" to "being key characters to new plots", while also mentioning their roles in past games. Did anyone complain about that? Is even more absurd reading those things from people that actually worked in the franchise since DA:O
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Post by danaxe on Oct 1, 2024 15:14:06 GMT
yep. the way they are addressing this topic and dealing with the complains it's... weird, to avoid another term... saying things like "you shouldn't ask for your favorite character to cameo. Do you want to see that character killed?" or "I won't bring back characters and not to do something dramatic with them". I mean... I thought they played the first three games? Because we had past characters doing a lot of things, from "just cameos" to "being key characters to new plots", while also mentioning their roles in past games. Did anyone complain about that? Is even more absurd reading those things from people that actually worked in the franchise since DA:O Wait, did they really say that? Cause..... if that's the case, what does that mean for the ones that ARE returning? Was that a freudian slip, and we're just about to see Varric, Morrigan and possibly even the Inquisitor, dying in Veilguard? I mean, if their goal is to cut all ties to the past so they dont have to deal with them in the future, killing them all is a very... final way to do it...
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Post by sloth on Oct 1, 2024 15:19:38 GMT
yep. the way they are addressing this topic and dealing with the complains it's... weird, to avoid another term... saying things like "you shouldn't ask for your favorite character to cameo. Do you want to see that character killed?" or "I won't bring back characters and not to do something dramatic with them". I mean... I thought they played the first three games? Because we had past characters doing a lot of things, from "just cameos" to "being key characters to new plots", while also mentioning their roles in past games. Did anyone complain about that? Is even more absurd reading those things from people that actually worked in the franchise since DA:O Wait, did they really say that? Cause..... if that's the case, what does that mean for the ones that ARE returning? Was that a freudian slip, and we're just about to see Varric, Morrigan and possibly even the Inquisitor, dying in Veilguard? I mean, if their goal is to cut all ties to the past so they dont have to deal with them in the future, killing them all is a very... final way to do it... saw that in a reddit post: https://www.reddit.com/r/dragonage/comments/1fpfv1l/dav_spoilers_be_careful_what_we_wish_for/ and I agree... I also think that Morrigan and Varric won't survive this game I get this feeling not because of what they said, but this "bringing back characters with blank slate", I think it makes easier for them to get killed in the story
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Post by danaxe on Oct 1, 2024 15:39:14 GMT
saw that in a reddit post: https://www.reddit.com/r/dragonage/comments/1fpfv1l/dav_spoilers_be_careful_what_we_wish_for/ and I agree... I also think that Morrigan and Varric won't survive this game I get this feeling not because of what they said, but this "bringing back characters with blank slate", I think it makes easier for them to get killed in the story Im speechless.... these people have completely lost the plot. Drunk out of their minds.. And what type of attitude is that when talking to fans of the franchise they work on? If they are frustrated or something, its better to just keep their mouths shut than doing this... I dont get it. The more info comes out, the more it feels like we are watching a controlled demolition of the franchise. Is it even possible to keep hurting their own case like this without actually wanting to hurt it? Im baffled. Dont know what to think anymore...
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Post by rekkampum on Oct 1, 2024 15:44:26 GMT
Wait, did they really say that? Cause..... if that's the case, what does that mean for the ones that ARE returning? Was that a freudian slip, and we're just about to see Varric, Morrigan and possibly even the Inquisitor, dying in Veilguard? I mean, if their goal is to cut all ties to the past so they dont have to deal with them in the future, killing them all is a very... final way to do it... saw that in a reddit post: https://www.reddit.com/r/dragonage/comments/1fpfv1l/dav_spoilers_be_careful_what_we_wish_for/ and I agree... I also think that Morrigan and Varric won't survive this game I get this feeling not because of what they said, but this "bringing back characters with blank slate", I think it makes easier for them to get killed in the story The comment from Epler referencing Bull is really odd because in that case what people would be asking for absolutely would make sense and at least be decent acknowledgement that their choice had an impact... And let's not forget that if you romanced a Bull that was still loyal to the Qun, his betrayal actually becomes a point of note in the aftermath so it WOULD be something worth mentioning in brief since Inky's cameoing in DAV.
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Post by illuminated11 on Oct 1, 2024 17:06:43 GMT
I could see reboot from live service combined with covid being major contributing factors in this decision, yes. It would roughly line up with what we know of the timeline.
That said, people are taking those tweets a little too seriously. Kirby and Weekes were having a lighthearted exchange with a Merrill fan, and it got blown up and rolled into the entire argument about world states. Plus most writers I know constantly make jokes about tormenting their characters, irrespective of how true it actually is. The Merrill fan even received death threats over this cropped screenshot, because of course they did.
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Post by OhDaniGirl on Oct 1, 2024 17:16:39 GMT
The Merrill fan even received death threats You've got to be kidding. Ugh, people can be gross.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 1, 2024 19:43:29 GMT
saw that in a reddit post: https://www.reddit.com/r/dragonage/comments/1fpfv1l/dav_spoilers_be_careful_what_we_wish_for/ and I agree... I also think that Morrigan and Varric won't survive this game I get this feeling not because of what they said, but this "bringing back characters with blank slate", I think it makes easier for them to get killed in the story The comment from Epler referencing Bull is really odd because in that case what people would be asking for absolutely would make sense and at least be decent acknowledgement that their choice had an impact... And let's not forget that if you romanced a Bull that was still loyal to the Qun, his betrayal actually becomes a point of note in the aftermath so it WOULD be something worth mentioning in brief since Inky's cameoing in DAV. that choice already mattered...in Inquisition. As for the overall conversation here this sounds like typical gallows writer humor but it does highlight what I've been saying. Having characters return beyond their initial expiration date, especially beyond a cameo capacity, requires new stories and stories are meant to have drama and conflict. That drama and conflict is itself a huge risk but it usually involves putting your character through mental and physical crisis, maybe even killing them. Which, gallows humor part of it, since fans can't leave characters alone it usually involves killing them to make the point really clear. And having characters go beyond their endings or just continuing them. Take Leiliana. While it's debatable if her story ended in Origins she was horribly handled in Inquisition. At least for my world state they ruined her character by A. Repeating the same gimmick, thus arc from Origins. B. Had the harden/soften point make no sense which C. Results in borderline character assassination for her being hardened. Or Hawke, most people do not like how they were handled. So, imo it's better to leave finished characters in the past rather then risk ruining them. Because can't stand the idea of them ruining the Inquisitor for instance. Edit: I mean just imagine for a second as a writer you craft a perfect narrative for the character you just wrote, tied them off with a bow. And then you have to do it again, not because you want to, or because you had a specific plan to, but because of some nebulous and ill defined 'fan demand'. Would drive me nuts.
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Post by azarhal on Oct 1, 2024 19:52:09 GMT
Results in borderline character assassination for her being hardened. Now, now, Leliana was already called Princess Stabbity in DAO. I do agree thought that they repeated her storyline with the soft/hardened in DAI.
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Post by Reznore on Oct 1, 2024 19:53:39 GMT
Leliana was Laidlaw wifu. That's why she was brought back every game. But I don't think the import function made for better stories. The OGB ended up like a nothing burger. We got a litteral god baby, we had no idea what would be the consequences, or why Flemeth wanted to save one. (we still don't really know btw) To get rid of that storyline because Kieran isn't a thing for everyone, and the God soul can be destroyed by normal slaying by warden...we got an emotional payoff. We got a story about Flemeth and Morrigan bad relationship. We got Morrigan as a mommy. And the soul possibly got destroyed when Solas slurped Flemeth and Kieran is a normal child who no one cares about (besides some people who played the warden as the father) Same as the Well of Sorrow, the stake were high. Forever bound to Mythal and your every action further her wether you know it or not. "a soul is not forced on the unwilling, Morrigan" become hollow words. If Morrigan has a piece of Mythal, the question of consent will never be raised now.
The change of PC + big choices in every game never quite worked.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 1, 2024 19:53:52 GMT
Results in borderline character assassination for her being hardened. Now, now, Leliana was already called Princess Stabbity in DAO. I do agree thought that they repeated her storyline with the soft/hardened in DAI. better that then divine murder nun.
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Post by sloth on Oct 1, 2024 20:36:28 GMT
The comment from Epler referencing Bull is really odd because in that case what people would be asking for absolutely would make sense and at least be decent acknowledgement that their choice had an impact... And let's not forget that if you romanced a Bull that was still loyal to the Qun, his betrayal actually becomes a point of note in the aftermath so it WOULD be something worth mentioning in brief since Inky's cameoing in DAV. that choice already mattered...in Inquisition. As for the overall conversation here this sounds like typical gallows writer humor but it does highlight what I've been saying. Having characters return beyond their initial expiration date, especially beyond a cameo capacity, requires new stories and stories are meant to have drama and conflict. That drama and conflict is itself a huge risk but it usually involves putting your character through mental and physical crisis, maybe even killing them. Which, gallows humor part of it, since fans can't leave characters alone it usually involves killing them to make the point really clear. And having characters go beyond their endings or just continuing them. Take Leiliana. While it's debatable if her story ended in Origins she was horribly handled in Inquisition. At least for my world state they ruined her character by A. Repeating the same gimmick, thus arc from Origins. B. Had the harden/soften point make no sense which C. Results in borderline character assassination for her being hardened. Or Hawke, most people do not like how they were handled. So, imo it's better to leave finished characters in the past rather then risk ruining them. Because can't stand the idea of them ruining the Inquisitor for instance. Edit: I mean just imagine for a second as a writer you craft a perfect narrative for the character you just wrote, tied them off with a bow. And then you have to do it again, not because you want to, or because you had a specific plan to, but because of some nebulous and ill defined 'fan demand'. Would drive me nuts. yeah, I also think they were kinda joking, but if they were addressing the complains, it sounded a bit condescending, in my opinion but I also think they didn't know how many people were complaining about that, apparently that conversation happened in the beginning of the last week, so I don't think they would answer that way today but about continuing characters beyond their endings, I don't think there's a restriction to that. Think the writers should do the story they want. If they think a character story ended in a game and thought about a good plot with this character that would happen in the next game, they shouldn't feel limited by the previously plot or feel that they have the obligation to do because of fan demand (which is not a strange thing to Bioware, as we had Cullen appearing in 3 games and they already said that Harding is now a companion by popular demand). It just have to be well-written. that said, I kinda agree about Leliana, I liked her in Inquisition, but her plot is too similar to her story in DA:O. But what you said is what I think about Morrigan appearing in DA:TV. Like, her story was finished in Inquisition, right? But in her case, I'm even more worried, since the game will not recognize what she did before in past games. She is coming with a blank or generic slate, so the chances that she will be out of character are high, and with that, so are the chances that her character will be ruined
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Post by rekkampum on Oct 1, 2024 21:01:15 GMT
The comment from Epler referencing Bull is really odd because in that case what people would be asking for absolutely would make sense and at least be decent acknowledgement that their choice had an impact... And let's not forget that if you romanced a Bull that was still loyal to the Qun, his betrayal actually becomes a point of note in the aftermath so it WOULD be something worth mentioning in brief since Inky's cameoing in DAV. that choice already mattered...in Inquisition. As for the overall conversation here this sounds like typical gallows writer humor but it does highlight what I've been saying. Having characters return beyond their initial expiration date, especially beyond a cameo capacity, requires new stories and stories are meant to have drama and conflict. That drama and conflict is itself a huge risk but it usually involves putting your character through mental and physical crisis, maybe even killing them. Which, gallows humor part of it, since fans can't leave characters alone it usually involves killing them to make the point really clear. And having characters go beyond their endings or just continuing them. Take Leiliana. While it's debatable if her story ended in Origins she was horribly handled in Inquisition. At least for my world state they ruined her character by A. Repeating the same gimmick, thus arc from Origins. B. Had the harden/soften point make no sense which C. Results in borderline character assassination for her being hardened. Or Hawke, most people do not like how they were handled. So, imo it's better to leave finished characters in the past rather then risk ruining them. Because can't stand the idea of them ruining the Inquisitor for instance. Edit: I mean just imagine for a second as a writer you craft a perfect narrative for the character you just wrote, tied them off with a bow. And then you have to do it again, not because you want to, or because you had a specific plan to, but because of some nebulous and ill defined 'fan demand'. Would drive me nuts. The conversation re: IB with Epler was not about whether or not IB should be in the game, but whether or not a line or so referencing him if he survived was appropriate, and it's more than appropriate in a game where the Inquisitor appears. It could even appear when a player for sake of argument asked Inky about their past and what they've been doing since. The exact same happens in Inquisition for those who romanced DA II characters with Hawke. It's really not that difficult. Re: Leliana, she was already referenced in DA II if she survived, so her character appearing in three made sense. I thought she was handled great. Her arc in Origins was in her dealing with her past as a bard with the woman who betrayed her; in the third game, it was about the mounting pressure she was facing having to lead a network of spies during a world-altering event and conflict she had strong opinions about. It's not character assassination since you still have a chance to influence whether she remains true to herself and even help her achieve one of their goals for peace in Thedas. (EDIT: Let's also remember that she had a personal connection to Divine Justinia so her loss dramatically impacted her and even led to a minor sidequest Inky could assist her in resolving it so she could heal from that loss, especially during the aftermath of the Fade Mission) No one had that with Hawke and while I had no problem with them in Inquisition, it's obvious other people would because people interpret narratives differently. I also am a writer. They've been making small references to choices -even obscure ones -for well over a decade in their sequels since transfers became the norm. No one is forcing them to do so either. No one's forcing you to have a worldstate with characters you don't want in it any more than they can myself.
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