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Post by illuminated11 on Oct 1, 2024 21:21:27 GMT
Yeah, I agree with rekkampum on Leliana. I love her arc in Inquisition, and while it echoes her arc from Origins, the parallels are done deliberately. I also like how the choice comes down to your Inquisitor being willing to stick their neck out for an underling they don't know and have never seen, because that's the sort of radical idealism that drove Leliana in Origins to join your group. Leliana in Origins is trying to reconcile her past with her faith, while Leliana in Inquisition is trying to reconcile her faith with the present.
And yeah, the writers probably shouldn't have said anything. I'm a little surprised they haven't gone dark until after Veilguard releases, at least when it comes to social media. But I also can only imagine how frustrating it is to have everything you say picked over with a fine tooth comb by hundreds if not thousands of people.
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Post by rekkampum on Oct 1, 2024 21:25:49 GMT
Yeah, I agree with rekkampum on Leliana. I love her arc in Inquisition, and while it echoes her arc from Origins, the parallels are done deliberately. I also like how the choice comes down to your Inquisitor being willing to stick their neck out for an underling they don't know and have never seen, because that's the sort of radical idealism that drove Leliana in Origins to join your group. And yeah, the writers probably shouldn't have said anything. I'm a little surprised they haven't gone dark until after Veilguard releases, at least when it comes to social media. But I also can only imagine how frustrating it is to have everything you say picked over with a fine tooth comb by hundreds if not thousands of people. Knowing the fandom's history, yeah, I can imagine it's brutal. I still remember when Weekes pointed out the reception to Hawke being a primary reason he really wasn't that interested in trying to consider bringing back the HoF, because we all know that would definitely be divisive.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 1, 2024 21:27:55 GMT
that choice already mattered...in Inquisition. As for the overall conversation here this sounds like typical gallows writer humor but it does highlight what I've been saying. Having characters return beyond their initial expiration date, especially beyond a cameo capacity, requires new stories and stories are meant to have drama and conflict. That drama and conflict is itself a huge risk but it usually involves putting your character through mental and physical crisis, maybe even killing them. Which, gallows humor part of it, since fans can't leave characters alone it usually involves killing them to make the point really clear. And having characters go beyond their endings or just continuing them. Take Leiliana. While it's debatable if her story ended in Origins she was horribly handled in Inquisition. At least for my world state they ruined her character by A. Repeating the same gimmick, thus arc from Origins. B. Had the harden/soften point make no sense which C. Results in borderline character assassination for her being hardened. Or Hawke, most people do not like how they were handled. So, imo it's better to leave finished characters in the past rather then risk ruining them. Because can't stand the idea of them ruining the Inquisitor for instance. Edit: I mean just imagine for a second as a writer you craft a perfect narrative for the character you just wrote, tied them off with a bow. And then you have to do it again, not because you want to, or because you had a specific plan to, but because of some nebulous and ill defined 'fan demand'. Would drive me nuts. yeah, I also think they were kinda joking, but if they were addressing the complains, it sounded a bit condescending, in my opinion but I also think they didn't know how many people were complaining about that, apparently that conversation happened in the beginning of the last week, so I don't think they would answer that way today but about continuing characters beyond their endings, I don't think there's a restriction to that. Think the writers should do the story they want. If they think a character story ended in a game and thought about a good plot with this character that would happen in the next game, they shouldn't feel limited by the previously plot or feel that they have the obligation to do because of fan demand (which is not a strange thing to Bioware, as we had Cullen appearing in 3 games and they already said that Harding is now a companion by popular demand). It just have to be well-written. that said, I kinda agree about Leliana, I liked her in Inquisition, but her plot is too similar to her story in DA:O. But what you said is what I think about Morrigan appearing in DA:TV. Like, her story was finished in Inquisition, right? But in her case, I'm even more worried, since the game will not recognize what she did before in past games. She is coming with a blank or generic slate, so the chances that she will be out of character are high, and with that, so are the chances that her character will be ruined That's fair. And yeah I do agree here but the thing is I don't think they should feel compelled to do so either way on this which is really part of my point. If they feel like they can do something with it, then do something with it, if not then I am perfectly fine with it. On the Harding thing though watched a couple of Tresspasser vids with some comments in this thread in mind and I indeed saw Harding hanging out at the wartable. So while she may have been back by 'popular demand' it seems her inclusion or some basic plan of it went all the way back to and set up in Tresspasser. that choice already mattered...in Inquisition. As for the overall conversation here this sounds like typical gallows writer humor but it does highlight what I've been saying. Having characters return beyond their initial expiration date, especially beyond a cameo capacity, requires new stories and stories are meant to have drama and conflict. That drama and conflict is itself a huge risk but it usually involves putting your character through mental and physical crisis, maybe even killing them. Which, gallows humor part of it, since fans can't leave characters alone it usually involves killing them to make the point really clear. And having characters go beyond their endings or just continuing them. Take Leiliana. While it's debatable if her story ended in Origins she was horribly handled in Inquisition. At least for my world state they ruined her character by A. Repeating the same gimmick, thus arc from Origins. B. Had the harden/soften point make no sense which C. Results in borderline character assassination for her being hardened. Or Hawke, most people do not like how they were handled. So, imo it's better to leave finished characters in the past rather then risk ruining them. Because can't stand the idea of them ruining the Inquisitor for instance. Edit: I mean just imagine for a second as a writer you craft a perfect narrative for the character you just wrote, tied them off with a bow. And then you have to do it again, not because you want to, or because you had a specific plan to, but because of some nebulous and ill defined 'fan demand'. Would drive me nuts. The conversation re: IB with Epler was not about whether or not IB should be in the game, but whether or not a line or so referencing him if he survived was appropriate, and it's more than appropriate in a game where the Inquisitor appears. It could even appear when a player for sake of argument asked Inky about their past and what they've been doing since. The exact same happens in Inquisition for those who romanced DA II characters with Hawke. It's really not that difficult. Re: Leliana, she was already referenced in DA II if she survived, so her character appearing in three made sense. I thought she was handled great. Her arc in Origins was in her dealing with her past as a bard with the woman who betrayed her; in the third game, it was about the mounting pressure she was facing having to lead a network of spies during a world-altering event and conflict she had strong opinions about. It's not character assassination since you still have a chance to influence whether she remains true to herself and even help her achieve one of their goals for peace in Thedas. No one had that with Hawke and while I had no problem with them in Inquisition, it's obvious other people would because people interpret narratives differently. I also am a writer. They've been making small references to choices -even obscure ones -for well over a decade in their sequels since transfers became the norm. No one is forcing them to do so either. No one's forcing you to have a worldstate with characters you don't want in it any more than they can myself. Its also really not that neccessary. Its nice when it happens but I don't see the compelling need where it has to be included or BioWare has comitted some cardinal writing sin, especially since conversations don't tend to work like that IRL. And I was debating bringing up that very thing and whether or not it is appropriate because I too am something of a writer myself...just me bringing it up has made me been called arrogant by the member of these boards and I am not entirely sure they are wrong considering my writing 'credentials' are pretty amateurish. However, it does also inform my opinion on these issues and from viewing and observing entertainment for most of my life, especially with a critical lense to try and learn from these properties to improve my own writing, and putting myself in the shoes of these writers. Asking myself how would I feel in their circumstances? And combined with everything else is the reason that I A. agree with their logic and B. think they are right in their ultimate decision. If they really think that this is the best way to move the franchise forward then I trust them enough, based on how much I love both ME and DA, for me to think its the right decision for this particular story. And yes, we can't force employees of multi billion dollar companions to make choices, especially since these choices have been made months or even years ago already so its too late and we just have to go in for the ride. But I also just disagree with this logic. Sure choices being reflected as flavor or cameo is always nice. But since I have felt almost no video games genuinely make your choices matter that I have no expectation for them to matter. And this goes for Dragon Age. As I mentioned above I can only think of one choice that has genuinely mattered and effected the plot in a meaningful way going from one game to another, the Hawk/ Warden choice could change very much depending on 'who' the Warden is. The rest have just been cameos and flavor which, again I will stress while nice, has had pretty much zero effect on the plot. No matter who the ruler of Ferelden is the mages are always banished so we always have to decide how we take them in. No matter what happens with Connor all he is is just an exposition device in Inquisition. No matter what happens with Morrigan and our relationship, even stabbing her, she always shows up in Inquisition and always has pretty much the exact same plot role. No matter whether or not we kill Leiliana she always shows up in Inquisition and she always retries at the end of Trespasser. As I have said if they decided to do any number of cameos and references it could be cool, it could work, but then it could also not work either as we saw with DA 2. But given the circumstances I don't see why they have to be there. To me 'choices mattering' has never been the main attraction in these games, its been the truffle on top of the chochlate pie at the end of a big breakfast for instance. Characters. Story. Worldbuilding. These are the reasons why I love DA, my choices reflecting is like cool...now where do we go from here? Which perhaps my most controversial take yet but I really wish they hadn't even marketed this. Would've probably come out either way but really should've left it for the game considering their revelation has actually provided some pretty significant story spoilers.
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Post by rekkampum on Oct 1, 2024 22:12:59 GMT
The conversation re: IB with Epler was not about whether or not IB should be in the game, but whether or not a line or so referencing him if he survived was appropriate, and it's more than appropriate in a game where the Inquisitor appears. It could even appear when a player for sake of argument asked Inky about their past and what they've been doing since. The exact same happens in Inquisition for those who romanced DA II characters with Hawke. It's really not that difficult. Re: Leliana, she was already referenced in DA II if she survived, so her character appearing in three made sense. I thought she was handled great. Her arc in Origins was in her dealing with her past as a bard with the woman who betrayed her; in the third game, it was about the mounting pressure she was facing having to lead a network of spies during a world-altering event and conflict she had strong opinions about. It's not character assassination since you still have a chance to influence whether she remains true to herself and even help her achieve one of their goals for peace in Thedas. No one had that with Hawke and while I had no problem with them in Inquisition, it's obvious other people would because people interpret narratives differently. I also am a writer. They've been making small references to choices -even obscure ones -for well over a decade in their sequels since transfers became the norm. No one is forcing them to do so either. No one's forcing you to have a worldstate with characters you don't want in it any more than they can myself. Its also really not that neccessary. Its nice when it happens but I don't see the compelling need where it has to be included or BioWare has comitted some cardinal writing sin, especially since conversations don't tend to work like that IRL. And I was debating bringing up that very thing and whether or not it is appropriate because I too am something of a writer myself...just me bringing it up has made me been called arrogant by the member of these boards and I am not entirely sure they are wrong considering my writing 'credentials' are pretty amateurish. However, it does also inform my opinion on these issues and from viewing and observing entertainment for most of my life, especially with a critical lense to try and learn from these properties to improve my own writing, and putting myself in the shoes of these writers. Asking myself how would I feel in their circumstances? And combined with everything else is the reason that I A. agree with their logic and B. think they are right in their ultimate decision. If they really think that this is the best way to move the franchise forward then I trust them enough, based on how much I love both ME and DA, for me to think its the right decision for this particular story. And yes, we can't force employees of multi billion dollar companions to make choices, especially since these choices have been made months or even years ago already so its too late and we just have to go in for the ride. But I also just disagree with this logic. Sure choices being reflected as flavor or cameo is always nice. But since I have felt almost no video games genuinely make your choices matter that I have no expectation for them to matter. And this goes for Dragon Age. As I mentioned above I can only think of one choice that has genuinely mattered and effected the plot in a meaningful way going from one game to another, the Hawk/ Warden choice could change very much depending on 'who' the Warden is. The rest have just been cameos and flavor which, again I will stress while nice, has had pretty much zero effect on the plot. No matter who the ruler of Ferelden is the mages are always banished so we always have to decide how we take them in. No matter what happens with Connor all he is is just an exposition device in Inquisition. No matter what happens with Morrigan and our relationship, even stabbing her, she always shows up in Inquisition and always has pretty much the exact same plot role. No matter whether or not we kill Leiliana she always shows up in Inquisition and she always retries at the end of Trespasser. As I have said if they decided to do any number of cameos and references it could be cool, it could work, but then it could also not work either as we saw with DA 2. But given the circumstances I don't see why they have to be there. To me 'choices mattering' has never been the main attraction in these games, its been the truffle on top of the chochlate pie at the end of a big breakfast for instance. Characters. Story. Worldbuilding. These are the reasons why I love DA, my choices reflecting is like cool...now where do we go from here? Which perhaps my most controversial take yet but I really wish they hadn't even marketed this. Would've probably come out either way but really should've left it for the game considering their revelation has actually provided some pretty significant story spoilers. Once again, I'm not arguing it's necessary nor can you find that in my comments, just that it makes sense when the Inquisitor is appearing in the game, who they romanced is literally something confirmed to transfer over, and we will more than likely be able to discuss their past with them. Epler's response was about whether or not players would appreciate it, and given not a single person has ever complained about a few lines referencing Hawke's LI when asked about their past, there'd be no reason to worry about it not being seen as meaningful with Inky. They're a character with a life and it's been a long time since Trespasser. Minute little details like those help characters in systems that reference choices as extensively as BW's games do feel alive. That said, Leliana shows up during Inquisition, and they created an entirely new concept in lore explaining why so that it fits her character, only reinforcing that her commitment to her ideals literally transcends life and death. She also disappears once Trespasser ends if she died in Origins because her spirit is finally at rest, so that aspect has been resolved efficiently. (EDIT: I just realized this only happens if she doesn't become Divine, and that if she does, she doesn't disappear, so that only makes this weird spiritual event taking place with her even more significant) Kieran (EDIT) was a problem started by introducing the Dark Ritual and then continuing to entertain it in Witch Hunt and would've remained one even if fans weren't interested in seeing him return. It was inevitable in some sense that a person who literally had world-altering implications in some world-states because of the finale in Origins couldn't be ignored forever, and in Kieran's case, they managed to resolve that while allowing us to see two iconic characters further evolve since we'd last seen them in the first game. Morrigan wasn't the same person she was prior to becoming a mother, and her trauma given her own mother's history was a major element informing that. So she is much different, as originally, she only saw Kieran as a tool to be used to further her own arcane pursuits. By the time of Inquisition, she was ready to do anything to prevent him from ever suffering from what she had, even to the point of sacrificing her own self to the very person she spent most of her life trying to escape. For me, it was a beautiful and brilliant scene. Others may feel differently, and it's a given as no one reacts the same. Also obviously people being rude to you is annoying and uncalled for, but outside of that you have several times -including here - before tried to use how you personally would want things to happen as the perspective that is correct. I disagreed with you without trying to leverage my experience as though it gives me more credibility on the subject and have still respected your right to disagree. That said, neither of us are writing their story no matter our level of experience doing so, so at the end of the day it is up to BW to decide, not us. But when they are priding themselves in certain things and have botched what is already a staple of their series and been dishonest about it- Epler even brags during the interview I cited about how extensive his lore writing is by claiming he'd be able to write FIVE additional DA games if he was asked to- folks are going to hold them to that standard. Do they deserve all the harassment? Certainly not. Analysis of the media they produce, on the other hand, isn't unreasonable.
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Post by fairdragon on Oct 2, 2024 8:11:35 GMT
Here is a dev opinion from not Bioware and he explain in a good way why we get what we get:
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Post by bierkrug on Oct 2, 2024 9:05:30 GMT
Here is a dev opinion from not Bioware and he explain in a good way why we get what we get: He certainly explains well that choice is costly for developers. But for Bioware, the choices were a trademark. If it's about money, then maybe don't spend so much on hiring big names like Mr Zimmer and use these funds instead to keep one of your core values running.
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Post by ellanathehamster on Oct 2, 2024 9:44:30 GMT
I'm still not over how inquisitor class isn't a choice in CC. Moreover, description for elf says "able hunter". Why mention any class at all, then?
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Post by hookntackle on Oct 2, 2024 10:37:31 GMT
It's kind of disappointing, but I'm actually still more suprised the Inquisitor appears at all; let alone is customizable. I think that's getting swept under the rug also.
You also have to remember that we are, statistically, an odd bunch. So much time has passed since DAI, and even between previous installments there was sort of a looser connection [than ie Mass Effect OT] you never really had this super consistent fanbase with all-encompassing playthroughs to consider primarily. They did this in many regards, but they could have chosen the easy way out and just completely cut the chord to the previous games and yet they didn't. I really appreciate that. New audience yadda yadda, it's clearly not as ungrateful as it seems.
That's not to say I'm really disappointed by many very obvious setups in DAI not being as critical after all. Saying that doesn't mean they were "meaningless", and might be heavily featured/built upon, except only for the fact that they happened rather than how.
Really that's why I came to appreciate the option the leave Hawke -one of my favorite protagonists ever- behind in the Fade so much more, because the amount of grand scale characters sort of just disappearing being "busy" with other stuff because whatever, when the stakes always are literally THE WORLD, was getting a bit annyoing. I know we will never ever hear from them again realistically, but it is much more satisfying to know they've put themselves in yet another impossible situation to do heroic things, they might get out by some way or another, they might turn into a potato, who knows, at least justifying absence ad infinitum without the downer of just being certainly killed off or "around" but becoming entirely meaningless. Yes, I was the kid who'd be content playing with just the box.
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Post by OhDaniGirl on Oct 2, 2024 12:35:32 GMT
I'm still not over how inquisitor class isn't a choice in CC. Moreover, description for elf says "able hunter". Why mention any class at all, then? This does sting a bit, but mage or no, the Inky has basically been a hunter of sorts for the past 8 years. And as a Dalish, it's not unreasonable to think even the mages have basic hunting skills as a matter of survival. I can forgive it.
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Post by TabithaTH on Oct 2, 2024 15:30:03 GMT
I found this to be a pretty good take on the situation.
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Post by KalleDemos on Oct 2, 2024 20:26:27 GMT
I found this to be a pretty good take on the situation.
I don't find this to be a good take at all. For lack of a better phrase 'toxic positivity' is part of the problem. Limiting previous choices to three is a decision that should never have been tolerated. The idea that 'Bioware Magic' will see the company through any storm has sank them before. Some people may be able to rationalize this, explain it away or maybe they don't care because 'FLOWING HAIR!!!' but I think this will have very negative consequences of the game's prospects. And I think the devs are at least partly aware of this as well. It's not a coincidence that this news released AFTER pre-orders and AFTER the investor call. Driving a stake through one of the pillars of Dragon Age's foundation, Bioware's modus operandi has produced predictable widespread condemnation. Tho unfortunate, it must be stated that threats and harassment are unacceptable and are not valid responses. The dev's reaction to the backlash just highlights how out of touch they are. I think they think they can hand-wave all of this away. That everything will be 'fine'. 'The paying customers we strung along for a decade don't really matter. That good 'ol Bioware Magic will draw in tons of brand new fans for installment #4, right?'. I think that's a gamble they will lose.
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Post by fairdragon on Oct 3, 2024 10:07:37 GMT
Here is a dev opinion from not Bioware and he explain in a good way why we get what we get: never have been tolerated I think it was a question of resources. And the story of this game getting where it is now. I understand what you are feeling, but nobody here can change a thing. If you want to be heared, write a nice massage to someone that worked on it. I wrote Darrah a little comment and he said thanks. This isn't Joplin this is EAs Morrison.
As i have hear from slander gaming. DAIs music director was part of Mr. Zimmers company. When he left it was a question of the next person or a different company. This decission was made long before they go back to SP. And braking a contract is expensive.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 3, 2024 10:43:48 GMT
I touched on the argument earlier but think it was probably in artfully stated on my part at the time about how people are complaining over the number of choices as if the numbers are the end all and be all of the debate.
And its one of the things that does keep on coming up, numbers versus mechanics. And what I care about is the mechanics of an issue and not the numbers of an issue. Didn't watch the video but did see it in my YouTube feed where the smooth headed Qunari was on the thumbnail, something about the choice issue, and the title 'BioWare is going to reboot Dragon Age aren't they?'
My immediete thought was 'of course not, don't be silly.' Why? Because the number of choices being reflected here is greater then zero. There are choices being reflected. There is continuity between past games. We can argue about what choices should and should not have been included here and the implications of them being included or not included...but the number is greater then zero, so BioWare continues to maintain the mechanical standards they have done since the beginning.
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Post by ergates on Oct 3, 2024 10:58:55 GMT
I can't help but notice there's a 'next' button on that first screenshot.
Is it possible that clicking that will add another page with more choice options?
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Post by sloth on Oct 3, 2024 15:22:10 GMT
I touched on the argument earlier but think it was probably in artfully stated on my part at the time about how people are complaining over the number of choices as if the numbers are the end all and be all of the debate. And its one of the things that does keep on coming up, numbers versus mechanics. And what I care about is the mechanics of an issue and not the numbers of an issue. Didn't watch the video but did see it in my YouTube feed where the smooth headed Qunari was on the thumbnail, something about the choice issue, and the title 'BioWare is going to reboot Dragon Age aren't they?' My immediete thought was 'of course not, don't be silly.' Why? Because the number of choices being reflected here is greater then zero. There are choices being reflected. There is continuity between past games. We can argue about what choices should and should not have been included here and the implications of them being included or not included...but the number is greater then zero, so BioWare continues to maintain the mechanical standards they have done since the beginning. though I believe they're trying to put the franchise in a point that they can take full control, I still don't think they're doing a reboot of the franchise. I'll have to play the game to see with my own eyes if that is the case, but DA:TV being the most direct sequel to its previous game, it is hard to believe that they are rebooting it (although, this particular reason also makes the decision to reduce the number of choices even more odd) about number of choices, I agree that "more than 0" is a sign that they are bringing back something from past games, but, of those 3, we got 0 from DA:O, 0 from DA:A and 0 from DA2, so I can't help but think that they are really trying to forget those games that came before DA:I but what you said made me think: people are discussing the number of choices, but I didn't see a lot of people talking about how those 3 choices can impact the next game... and maybe analyzing that would make things sound better or worse? for example, regarding the stop or save Solas decision, I think that, from the 3, this is what will have the greater impact in the game, and we'll be able to see it through interactions with the Inquisitor, or maybe even impact the end of the game. about disbanding or not the Inquisition: not sure how this will impact DA:TV, but I'm guessing it won't be anything big. Like, maybe just how and where you'll be interacting with the Inquisitor and some lines? and about the Inquisitor romance options, I think this will only impact those who romanced Solas. For the others, don't think it will matter besides probably cameos or lines (which, if true, would be ironic considering what the developers said recently but I digress). But, considering those who didn't romance Solas, I think there's a possibility that the lack of choices would make this one even less meaningful. Let's take Iron Bull, for example. If I'm not mistaken, even a romanced Iron Bull will betray the Inquisitor if the Chargers die in his personal quest. So, in this case, Inquisitor romanced Iron Bull, but he died betraying the Inquisition. So, if it's only possible to choose if Iron Bull was romanced or not, how will the game react about him being alive or not? Is Iron Bull not being mentioned at all? So, in this case, the 3 important choices could be reduced to 2? EDIT: yeah, just found out the route they're taking to avoid some of these problems and that being true... yeah, if retconning is a thing they're doing, then everything they said like " it's still your DA" or " we are leaving some choices for another time because we don't want just simple cameos or one-liners" is all a lie and things are looking worse than I thought. Wow, can't wait for this game to be launched so I can play it and decide if I'll like or hate it. The hype is being damaged everyday with those news.
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Post by The Pluto Lounge on Oct 3, 2024 16:46:46 GMT
The comment from Epler referencing Bull is really odd because in that case what people would be asking for absolutely would make sense and at least be decent acknowledgement that their choice had an impact... And let's not forget that if you romanced a Bull that was still loyal to the Qun, his betrayal actually becomes a point of note in the aftermath so it WOULD be something worth mentioning in brief since Inky's cameoing in DAV. that choice already mattered...in Inquisition. As for the overall conversation here this sounds like typical gallows writer humor but it does highlight what I've been saying. Having characters return beyond their initial expiration date, especially beyond a cameo capacity, requires new stories and stories are meant to have drama and conflict. That drama and conflict is itself a huge risk but it usually involves putting your character through mental and physical crisis, maybe even killing them. Which, gallows humor part of it, since fans can't leave characters alone it usually involves killing them to make the point really clear. And having characters go beyond their endings or just continuing them. Take Leiliana. While it's debatable if her story ended in Origins she was horribly handled in Inquisition. At least for my world state they ruined her character by A. Repeating the same gimmick, thus arc from Origins. B. Had the harden/soften point make no sense which C. Results in borderline character assassination for her being hardened. Or Hawke, most people do not like how they were handled. So, imo it's better to leave finished characters in the past rather then risk ruining them. Because can't stand the idea of them ruining the Inquisitor for instance. Edit: I mean just imagine for a second as a writer you craft a perfect narrative for the character you just wrote, tied them off with a bow. And then you have to do it again, not because you want to, or because you had a specific plan to, but because of some nebulous and ill defined 'fan demand'. Would drive me nuts. I totally agree with this! For Leliana, I really wish they had introduced a new character in Dragon Age 2 instead of bringing back the former bard. Then, they could’ve continued that new character’s story in Inquisition. Leliana’s arc in Inquisition would’ve been so much better with someone fresh because you’d just enjoy it without constantly comparing it to her arc in Origins. Especially if you’ve read the side books—it just feels like there's too much Leliana, almost like she's a writer's pet, kind of like Felicity in Arrow. 😈 As for Varric and Morrigan, I think both of their arcs wrapped up nicely after Inquisition. Morrigan kind of makes sense being in Veilguard, especially if Flemeth is in her head. But if she’s not and no import choices, are we just going to get more of the same “know-it-all” Morrigan? That could get pretty exhausting. The Well choice isn’t even that big of a deal since we already have Elvhen artifacts. It’s kind of like the Speed Force—you don’t really need to explain it (not saying its a good thing). Morrigan’s thirst for knowledge could easily lead her to an artifact that has some of Mythal’s essence or something. Eh, as I type this... I'm kind of done with both Witches of the Wild. Now, about the male dwarf—he shouldn’t have been in Veilguard. With Harding now a companion, that Missing comic should’ve focused on her, leading the way and introducing a new character to join her. Instead, she came off as Varric’s sidekick. With Hawke, I would have rather that character was not featured in Inquisition. I'm not the biggest fan of the Inquisitor, so when Hawke appeared all I wanted to do was control Hawke and continue the story controlling them. However, I had no control and that was a weird and frustrating experience. Finally, when it comes to import choices, there should’ve been more to give players proper closure on their previous game stories, so everyone could move on to the next chapter with Bioware. These could’ve been handled through something simple like letters or reports.
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KalleDemos
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Post by KalleDemos on Oct 3, 2024 18:00:53 GMT
Here is a dev opinion from not Bioware and he explain in a good way why we get what we get: never have been tolerated I think it was a question of resources. And the story of this game getting where it is now. I understand what you are feeling, but nobody here can change a thing. If you want to be heared, write a nice massage to someone that worked on it. I wrote Darrah a little comment and he said thanks. This isn't Joplin this is EAs Morrison.
As i have hear from slander gaming. DAIs music director was part of Mr. Zimmers company. When he left it was a question of the next person or a different company. This decission was made long before they go back to SP. And braking a contract is expensive.
Many in the fandom including myself will be voting with our wallets later this month. I've no doubt the devs will hear us loud and clear then.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 3, 2024 21:23:00 GMT
I touched on the argument earlier but think it was probably in artfully stated on my part at the time about how people are complaining over the number of choices as if the numbers are the end all and be all of the debate. And its one of the things that does keep on coming up, numbers versus mechanics. And what I care about is the mechanics of an issue and not the numbers of an issue. Didn't watch the video but did see it in my YouTube feed where the smooth headed Qunari was on the thumbnail, something about the choice issue, and the title 'BioWare is going to reboot Dragon Age aren't they?' My immediete thought was 'of course not, don't be silly.' Why? Because the number of choices being reflected here is greater then zero. There are choices being reflected. There is continuity between past games. We can argue about what choices should and should not have been included here and the implications of them being included or not included...but the number is greater then zero, so BioWare continues to maintain the mechanical standards they have done since the beginning. though I believe they're trying to put the franchise in a point that they can take full control, I still don't think they're doing a reboot of the franchise. I'll have to play the game to see with my own eyes if that is the case, but DA:TV being the most direct sequel to its previous game, it is hard to believe that they are rebooting it (although, this particular reason also makes the decision to reduce the number of choices even more odd) about number of choices, I agree that "more than 0" is a sign that they are bringing back something from past games, but, of those 3, we got 0 from DA:O, 0 from DA:A and 0 from DA2, so I can't help but think that they are really trying to forget those games that came before DA:I but what you said made me think: people are discussing the number of choices, but I didn't see a lot of people talking about how those 3 choices can impact the next game... and maybe analyzing that would make things sound better or worse? for example, regarding the stop or save Solas decision, I think that, from the 3, this is what will have the greater impact in the game, and we'll be able to see it through interactions with the Inquisitor, or maybe even impact the end of the game. about disbanding or not the Inquisition: not sure how this will impact DA:TV, but I'm guessing it won't be anything big. Like, maybe just how and where you'll be interacting with the Inquisitor and some lines? and about the Inquisitor romance options, I think this will only impact those who romanced Solas. For the others, don't think it will matter besides probably cameos or lines (which, if true, would be ironic considering what the developers said recently but I digress). But, considering those who didn't romance Solas, I think there's a possibility that the lack of choices would make this one even less meaningful. Let's take Iron Bull, for example. If I'm not mistaken, even a romanced Iron Bull will betray the Inquisitor if the Chargers die in his personal quest. So, in this case, Inquisitor romanced Iron Bull, but he died betraying the Inquisition. So, if it's only possible to choose if Iron Bull was romanced or not, how will the game react about him being alive or not? Is Iron Bull not being mentioned at all? So, in this case, the 3 important choices could be reduced to 2? EDIT: yeah, just found out the route they're taking to avoid some of these problems and that being true... yeah, if retconning is a thing they're doing, then everything they said like " it's still your DA" or " we are leaving some choices for another time because we don't want just simple cameos or one-liners" is all a lie and things are looking worse than I thought. Wow, can't wait for this game to be launched so I can play it and decide if I'll like or hate it. The hype is being damaged everyday with those news. That's the thing though, if only a very few number of choices mattered from Inquisition...because they were tied off and wrapped up not out of malicious reasons...then why would there be a reasonable expectation that any of the choices would matter from 2 or Origins? Like I am wracking my brain here and I just can't think of a single choice from 2 that would be relevant given the circumstances BioWare is both dealing with and has set up. And even the choice I would include from Origins, the Kieran choice, would only matter at this point simply to get an extra few lines of dialog with Morrigan other then being some huge choice that matters in regards to the plot. And keep in mind that fans have often complained about how BioWare has incorporated these choices before, in both games. That they don't matter enough, that they have been retconned, ignored, or hand waved aside as they have established cannon choices before and that these have been no nos. So in essence BioWare continues to follow what was at the time what they heard fans wanted. Rather not having the choice rather then choices that are poorly executed (which keep in mind people will say 'well do better' but with expectations and headcanons on the line that is a next to impossible ask). As for the reast... I assume you are talking about the Bull choice in terms of retcon?
Not going to go into the weeds too much already talked about it enough but nothing really has been retconned. A Bull who is loyal to the Qun is not going to be involved with the Inquisitor in a romantic sense. that choice already mattered...in Inquisition. As for the overall conversation here this sounds like typical gallows writer humor but it does highlight what I've been saying. Having characters return beyond their initial expiration date, especially beyond a cameo capacity, requires new stories and stories are meant to have drama and conflict. That drama and conflict is itself a huge risk but it usually involves putting your character through mental and physical crisis, maybe even killing them. Which, gallows humor part of it, since fans can't leave characters alone it usually involves killing them to make the point really clear. And having characters go beyond their endings or just continuing them. Take Leiliana. While it's debatable if her story ended in Origins she was horribly handled in Inquisition. At least for my world state they ruined her character by A. Repeating the same gimmick, thus arc from Origins. B. Had the harden/soften point make no sense which C. Results in borderline character assassination for her being hardened. Or Hawke, most people do not like how they were handled. So, imo it's better to leave finished characters in the past rather then risk ruining them. Because can't stand the idea of them ruining the Inquisitor for instance. Edit: I mean just imagine for a second as a writer you craft a perfect narrative for the character you just wrote, tied them off with a bow. And then you have to do it again, not because you want to, or because you had a specific plan to, but because of some nebulous and ill defined 'fan demand'. Would drive me nuts. I totally agree with this! For Leliana, I really wish they had introduced a new character in Dragon Age 2 instead of bringing back the former bard. Then, they could’ve continued that new character’s story in Inquisition. Leliana’s arc in Inquisition would’ve been so much better with someone fresh because you’d just enjoy it without constantly comparing it to her arc in Origins. Especially if you’ve read the side books—it just feels like there's too much Leliana, almost like she's a writer's pet, kind of like Felicity in Arrow. 😈 As for Varric and Morrigan, I think both of their arcs wrapped up nicely after Inquisition. Morrigan kind of makes sense being in Veilguard, especially if Flemeth is in her head. But if she’s not and no import choices, are we just going to get more of the same “know-it-all” Morrigan? That could get pretty exhausting. The Well choice isn’t even that big of a deal since we already have Elvhen artifacts. It’s kind of like the Speed Force—you don’t really need to explain it (not saying its a good thing). Morrigan’s thirst for knowledge could easily lead her to an artifact that has some of Mythal’s essence or something. Eh, as I type this... I'm kind of done with both Witches of the Wild. Now, about the male dwarf—he shouldn’t have been in Veilguard. With Harding now a companion, that Missing comic should’ve focused on her, leading the way and introducing a new character to join her. Instead, she came off as Varric’s sidekick. With Hawke, I would have rather that character was not featured in Inquisition. I'm not the biggest fan of the Inquisitor, so when Hawke appeared all I wanted to do was control Hawke and continue the story controlling them. However, I had no control and that was a weird and frustrating experience. Finally, when it comes to import choices, there should’ve been more to give players proper closure on their previous game stories, so everyone could move on to the next chapter with Bioware. These could’ve been handled through something simple like letters or reports. Yeah some of what I talked about above to and I do think that BioWare tends to get way too reliant on fan opinion and fan expectation and what the fans want and what they think the fans want. Sometimes they are right. While a lot of people are upset by this decision regarding the choices, rightly or wrongly, this is something that can be traced right back to fan commentary. But sometimes they are wrong to and Varric's inclusion here is I think maybe not so much fan commentary wanting him back but BioWare wanting to play it safe with the fans so much that they want to keep him in there as one of the through threads of the franchise at this point. The storyteller.
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Post by ahglock on Oct 3, 2024 21:47:18 GMT
None of the other Dragon Ages were a direct continuation of the one before. There were hooks tying them together but no cliffhanger ending. So the limited tie ins seems off.its not the worst thing ever, but it is disappointing. On the bright side I feel no need to get a DAI run in again since none of it matters.
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Post by MeadKnight on Oct 3, 2024 21:49:24 GMT
None of the other Dragon Ages were a direct continuation of the one before. There were hooks tying them together but no cliffhanger ending. So the limited tie ins seems off.its not the worst thing ever, but it is disappointing. On the bright side I feel no need to get a DAI run in again since none of it matters. I was just in the middle of a run when the 3 choices was announced, kinda killed my motivation. might just try to skip to the end just to replay Trespasser.
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Post by themikefest on Oct 3, 2024 22:32:13 GMT
With Hawke, I would have rather that character was not featured in Inquisition. I'm not the biggest fan of the Inquisitor, so when Hawke appeared all I wanted to do was control Hawke and continue the story controlling them. However, I had no control and that was a weird and frustrating experience. It would have been nice to control Hawke. What bothered me is Hawke goes off to Weisshaupt, if he she survives the fade. I would have Hawke and the Grey warden survive. The Grey Warden heads to Weisshaupt while Hawke stays at Skyhold to show up at the end to help defeat Cory.
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Post by sloth on Oct 4, 2024 0:52:13 GMT
though I believe they're trying to put the franchise in a point that they can take full control, I still don't think they're doing a reboot of the franchise. I'll have to play the game to see with my own eyes if that is the case, but DA:TV being the most direct sequel to its previous game, it is hard to believe that they are rebooting it (although, this particular reason also makes the decision to reduce the number of choices even more odd) about number of choices, I agree that "more than 0" is a sign that they are bringing back something from past games, but, of those 3, we got 0 from DA:O, 0 from DA:A and 0 from DA2, so I can't help but think that they are really trying to forget those games that came before DA:I but what you said made me think: people are discussing the number of choices, but I didn't see a lot of people talking about how those 3 choices can impact the next game... and maybe analyzing that would make things sound better or worse? for example, regarding the stop or save Solas decision, I think that, from the 3, this is what will have the greater impact in the game, and we'll be able to see it through interactions with the Inquisitor, or maybe even impact the end of the game. about disbanding or not the Inquisition: not sure how this will impact DA:TV, but I'm guessing it won't be anything big. Like, maybe just how and where you'll be interacting with the Inquisitor and some lines? and about the Inquisitor romance options, I think this will only impact those who romanced Solas. For the others, don't think it will matter besides probably cameos or lines (which, if true, would be ironic considering what the developers said recently but I digress). But, considering those who didn't romance Solas, I think there's a possibility that the lack of choices would make this one even less meaningful. Let's take Iron Bull, for example. If I'm not mistaken, even a romanced Iron Bull will betray the Inquisitor if the Chargers die in his personal quest. So, in this case, Inquisitor romanced Iron Bull, but he died betraying the Inquisition. So, if it's only possible to choose if Iron Bull was romanced or not, how will the game react about him being alive or not? Is Iron Bull not being mentioned at all? So, in this case, the 3 important choices could be reduced to 2? EDIT: yeah, just found out the route they're taking to avoid some of these problems and that being true... yeah, if retconning is a thing they're doing, then everything they said like " it's still your DA" or " we are leaving some choices for another time because we don't want just simple cameos or one-liners" is all a lie and things are looking worse than I thought. Wow, can't wait for this game to be launched so I can play it and decide if I'll like or hate it. The hype is being damaged everyday with those news. That's the thing though, if only a very few number of choices mattered from Inquisition...because they were tied off and wrapped up not out of malicious reasons...then why would there be a reasonable expectation that any of the choices would matter from 2 or Origins? Like I am wracking my brain here and I just can't think of a single choice from 2 that would be relevant given the circumstances BioWare is both dealing with and has set up. And even the choice I would include from Origins, the Kieran choice, would only matter at this point simply to get an extra few lines of dialog with Morrigan other then being some huge choice that matters in regards to the plot. And keep in mind that fans have often complained about how BioWare has incorporated these choices before, in both games. That they don't matter enough, that they have been retconned, ignored, or hand waved aside as they have established cannon choices before and that these have been no nos. So in essence BioWare continues to follow what was at the time what they heard fans wanted. Rather not having the choice rather then choices that are poorly executed (which keep in mind people will say 'well do better' but with expectations and headcanons on the line that is a next to impossible ask). As for the reast... I assume you are talking about the Bull choice in terms of retcon?
Not going to go into the weeds too much already talked about it enough but nothing really has been retconned. A Bull who is loyal to the Qun is not going to be involved with the Inquisitor in a romantic sense. I think that the choices from past games can impact both the franchise and next game in different ways The possibility to choose decisions from DA:O and DA2 would impact Thedas (which I believe is the "main protagonist" of the franchise, like the Shepard is to Mass Effect). And I don't think everything that we choose must appear in the next game, but, the game allowing those decisions to be imported would be the game saying "yes, that happened in Thedas". So, those decisions, small or big, would be helping with the world building. The players wouldn't depend on headcanons (and, in my opinion, when the writer forces the player to headcanon something, they are not doing a good job, especially in a game which decisions are the most important things). The Keep did this job perfectly: allowed the players to inform a lot of decisions that built their worldstate, and allowed the developers to pick what they wanted to use in DA:I. Now, for the next game, I think the decisions that would matter are the decisions that the writers want to matter. And I think they should pick decisions that would serve for making the whole game better, so, things that matter to the plot and also for worldbuilding, as it would also contribute for the game "being good". Reducing mentions to things happening around Thedas is reducing the lore of the game. Reducing the lore of the game is bad writing, in my opinion. Nobody mentioning the the Hero of Ferelden, who ended the last Blight? In a world where we are possibly getting another Blight? I think that is bad writing. It doesn't damage the plot they are aiming for DA:TV, but it damages the story of Thedas. Hawke being left in the Fade or going to Weisshaupt/helping Varric in Kirkwall, for example. Varric not mentioning which of these happened? The Champion of Kirkwall? Again, I think that is bad writing, out of character (I mean, it happened in DA:I, Varric spoke about his friends for no reason, and it didnt matter in the plot, but made sense) The Divine could literally be a mage, and nobody in Tevinter would say a world about that through the whole game? Not even in others North countries that are following the Southern Chantry? DA:2 is the story with the smaller scale, and yet it used past decisions in a good way. They were able to tell the story they wanted in DA:2, and yet remember decisions from DA:O and DA:A. I also think that, between a little mention and no mention at all, they choose the latter. And I think they went with the worse option of those two about that thing yes, I was talking about the Iron Bull, found out in the discussion in the Lucanis thread. Some people already said there what I think too I'd just add that I think the way they choose to deal with it demands some "headcanon", which, as I said, I think it's bad writing on their part now, I totally understand your point, sorry if it seems that I'm taking my frustration out on this conversation. It is just that until last week I was pretty hyped for a new DA game, but it took a real blow with these recent news
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Post by Guardian on Oct 4, 2024 1:39:39 GMT
Many in the fandom including myself will be voting with our wallets later this month. I've no doubt the devs will hear us loud and clear then. Maybe not BioWare, but EA will. BioWare didn't listen after ME 3 or Andromeda, I doubt they'll listen now. Remember - they still refuse to talk about how they screwed up the end to ME 3. But EA? You better believe they'll be listening... It's kind of disappointing, but I'm actually still more suprised the Inquisitor appears at all; let alone is customizable. I think that's getting swept under the rug also. I thought I remember reading somewhere about how this was meant more to be for those that pursued Solas with an elf Inquisitor romantically? I'm probably mistaken, so don't quote me on that. Or I could have misread it or read too much into it.
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Post by fairdragon on Oct 4, 2024 8:16:22 GMT
I think it was a question of resources. And the story of this game getting where it is now. I understand what you are feeling, but nobody here can change a thing. If you want to be heared, write a nice massage to someone that worked on it. I wrote Darrah a little comment and he said thanks. This isn't Joplin this is EAs Morrison.
As i have hear from slander gaming. DAIs music director was part of Mr. Zimmers company. When he left it was a question of the next person or a different company. This decission was made long before they go back to SP. And braking a contract is expensive.
Many in the fandom including myself will be voting with our wallets later this month. I've no doubt the devs will hear us loud and clear then. I understand. But i am not so sure if it will be as loud and clear as you hope it will be. After the info came out, it was at #120 in steam sales and i really saw the effort they have to make to get it back in the right direction. Then the AC delay happend and they appeared on the Tokio game show and since then it is in the 70-90 in steam sales. (#74 at the moment) I thought from the beginning that this game will sale good in the asian market. especially Japan. So at the moment it is sitting very well if you take into account Anthem and the negative feedback online.
And after it's release we will see in what direction it will go. The quality of the game will be importent.
Edit:
Maybe not BioWare, but EA will. BioWare didn't listen after ME 3 or Andromeda, I doubt they'll listen now. Remember - they still refuse to talk about how they screwed up the end to ME 3. But EA? You better believe they'll be listening... EA doesn't hear, they only look up numbers. And we only got SP because Anthem have bad numbers and SP good numbers. DAI and DA:TV only got so much time because DA2 have had bad numbers. The only way EA will say consequences over games is importent is when a game with them get good numbers. I don't see a single game with that out their.
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Oct 24, 2024 12:01:58 GMT
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fairdragon
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Jul 30, 2020 17:14:13 GMT
July 2020
fairdragon
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate
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Post by fairdragon on Oct 4, 2024 8:24:13 GMT
Like I am wracking my brain here and I just can't think of a single choice from 2 that would be relevant given the circumstances BioWare is both dealing with and has set up. And even the choice I would include from Origins, the Kieran choice, would only matter at this point simply to get an extra few lines of dialog with Morrigan other then being some huge choice that matters in regards to the plot. That is a question of the character they want to bring back. If nobody of 2 has a NPC role, then no choice is importent. I agree with that. And no Varric friend or foe with Hawk doesn't matter as hawk will not be back. But i dissagree with Kieran, because Kieran can be the reason Morrigan accepted Mythals soul. So if they wanted, the well and Kieran could change the way Morrigan or the inquisitior appear.
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