Is Bioware playing it safe?

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Is Bioware playing it safe? Nov 16, 2016 15:03:16 GMT

Post by shechinah on Nov 16, 2016 15:03:16 GMT

Nov 15, 2016 21:33:56 GMT Cyberstrike said:

Nov 14, 2016 22:24:47 GMT daniel said:

Now to be brutally honest the story barely holds together across 3 games and their DLC, (the novels, comics, and anime help somewhat but just barely) because in my OPINION BioWare never really had a much in the way of a three part story planed from to start, I think they saw how well Halo was selling at the time and how Bungie and Microsoft were say that it was trilogy and were thinking that since Star Wars, The Matrix, and The Lord of the Rings made money by being trilogies that saying Mass Effect would be a trilogy would be good for business. I think at best Casey Hudson and Mac Walters went in with the old "we will make it up as we go" approach and while there are a few successful trilogies that did that right (Evil Dead maybe) but I find it leaves a lot to be desired.

I think the Mass Effect team might have had an idea and outlining of where they wanted the series to go and what they wanted to do but I do not think it was planned out as properly and in-depth as it should. I consider an example of this to be Mass Effect 2.

I'll preface what I am about to say with this: I love Mass Effect 2, I enjoy Mass Effect 2 and I think Mass Effect 2 is a recommendable game. However, I cannot Mass Effect 2 worked well as a part of a trilogy especially as the bridging segment between the beginning and the end of said trilogy.

One of its major mistakes was that it introduced a whole new and sizable cast of characters that could die in the very same game thus granting them determinable status in the final game. In addition, fans understandably expected to see content dedicated to these characters given that this was the finale of the series especially as some of these characters were romanceable. If they were absent or had periods of being absent, it was expected that there'd be a logical reason for it.

Another of its major mistakes was the Suicide Mission. I'll note that I love the Suicide Mission: it is my favorite part of Mass Effect 2 and I would love to see similar missions in the future where the success rate is affected by whom I selected for a task based on their skillset and experience. I think, however, emphasised choices and consequences more than the developers intended for it to be. To say it differently: it gave the players more power in determing the mood and theme of the game than I think the developers wanted. The Suicide Mission is portrayed as, well, a suicide mission yet if the player plays their cards right then they'll suffer no personal losses and the mission will be a complete win.

The Suicide Mission was build up to be, again, a suicide mission but if the player makes the right choices then the theme of the story can end up being that no matter how bad the odds are, no matter how impossible something seems and no matter how losses seem invietable, you can beat every odd, do the impossible and come out on top without a single loss.

I am perhaps poorly explaining the Suicide Mission segment of my post: the gist of what I'm getting at with it is that while the Mass Effect team might have intended to only create build up to the ending(s) they had in mind, they inadvertantly allowed players the power to build up to an entirely different endings(s).

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Is Bioware playing it safe? Nov 16, 2016 15:26:16 GMT

Post by shechinah on Nov 16, 2016 15:26:16 GMT

Nov 15, 2016 21:33:56 GMT Cyberstrike said:

Nov 14, 2016 22:24:47 GMT daniel said:

...

Play as a human again the original Mass Effect trilogy was about humanity starting out as newbies on the galactic stage and becoming leaders and proving their worth.
Playing as a rookie look I've played as an already well-trained space marine in the Mass Effect trilogy, (and as well as a warrior, thief, and mage in the various Dragon Age games, a well trained martial artist in Jade Empire and a Jedi/Sith with memory loss in KOTOR 1) so frankly I find the idea of playing as a rookie kind of fresh. Mass Effect was NEVER about aliens it was and still is a story about humans the aliens are there because it's science fiction.

As far as the 3 man team it works (the combat in ME3 was IMHO the best of the series so far) so why fix something that was never really broken?

I just wish and I hope that Mass Effect's humanity will be interesting to me in Mass Effect: Andromeda. I found them interesting in the first Mass Effect and liked that they seemed to show some of human culture like poetry, religion, accents and how the First Contact War had affected them for better and for worse even down the generations.

I didn't feel like they were really underdogs in galactic society since, well, they don't feel like it. While some individuals might be prejudiced towards humanity, it dosen't feel like humanity is slowed down by this. I liked that it seemed like humanity had a habit of biting over more than they could chew in an attempt to seem like they fitted in and could hold their own to the point where they tried to play tough and didn't want to ask for help. It led to them making mistakes but well, mistakes makes us human and it help make them feel human. The mistakes also made sense given the backstory of Mass Effect's humanity. ME1's humanity a sense of having culture and having meaningful flaws, basically.

After Mass Effect 1, humanity began to seem... bland to me. The sense of culture and flaws seemed to ebb out without being replaced by something else which put them at a disadvantage to me because the other races still retained theirs and it showed through their interactions. It was where I began to feel like I was suppose to care about humanity because it was a fictional version of humanity and that does not work for me because non-fictional humanity has flaws, cultures and so much more. In fictional works, I don't feel any automatic kinship towards something or someone because it shares my race.

That's also why I never developed any attachment to Mass Effect's Earth but why I developed much attachment to the Citadel. I'd been to the Citadel in each game, I'd explored it from top to bottom, I'd met people who lived there. I never even got to visit Earth and yet it seemed like I was expected to care about it like I was personally invested in it but again, I'd never had the chance to personally invest myself in it. At best, I got to look at it from the moon.

That lengthy bit aside, I am looking forward to playing a bit more of a green character as well. Ryder might not be a complete rookie but I like the idea of playing a character who is still finding their feet for the lack of a better word.

Last Edit: Nov 16, 2016 15:27:43 GMT by shechinah

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Is Bioware playing it safe? Nov 16, 2016 15:50:05 GMT

Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2016 15:50:05 GMT

I don't mind the racial choice locked into humans in the SP, as long as the alien cast is variable, and there are tons of MP cards. Honestly, I would not have minded it being a story of a rebelling portion of the Migrant Fleet, as imo it fits the mythology, but humans are okay.

In respect to Citadel, which is the harbour in the Trilogy, i hope that part of the innovative storytelling will be the sense of acute alienation, and return to the state of nomadic existence we really lost etc. I really liked the line in the trailer that states "we are the aliens". Playing a a return to the ancient nomadic psyche is really a curio to me. I hope they do develop on that idea.

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Is Bioware playing it safe? Nov 16, 2016 15:51:43 GMT

Post by Iakus on Nov 16, 2016 15:51:43 GMT

Nov 16, 2016 5:38:30 GMT @upupaway95 said:

Nov 15, 2016 22:06:52 GMT Iakus said:

I am sorry. My intention is not to "get on you" specifically. You're just the one unfortunate enough to be addressing me. Rather, I am referring to several people on this thread and others.

It's just frustrating that those of us less than enthused with Bioware and their upcoming Mass Effect game are generally told to just shut up. To the point of stooping to personal attacks (and stupid gifs)

I'm not sure why you're apologizing. It's certainly not necessary and it is probably an indication that I'm still coming across in ways I'm not intending to come across. I do understand your frustration. I think a similar frustration is being felt on both sides of this debate... if only because this same debate had been going on at the old BSN for years and shows no real signs of letting up here either. Under the circumstances (and as I said in my very first post on this thread), I would not blame Bioware for trying to play it as safe as they can. As some others have posted though... even attempting to do anything with this franchise beyond what was already done has been a huge risk for them... and if they had not taken that risk, none of us would have any game to be even curious about. So, they are taking this chance... knowing that they will only please some of us... and I applaud their courage for doing so regardless of how the game actually turns out. I also believe that they are putting their best efforts into it... and anyone's best effort is usually always "good enough" for me.

I fully expect them to play it safe. And there's nothing wrong with that. Tried and true story elements are tried and true for a reason: people like them. A familiar story can still be a good story if it's told well.

But yes, I was shocked to hear they were making another Mass Effect game so quickly. I expected a few more years on the shelf before someone would try to open that box again (much like what happened with the Deus Ex: Invisible War fiasco) Going back to Mass Effect at all is a risk.

But the thing is, they're taking two other risks: They are keeping the endings in place, even if they are attempting to sidestep them. They are determined to keep their 'art", even if it's so radioactive it contaminates the entire MW from further exploration.

Second, almost an extension of that, is that we are traveling to another galaxy. The risk here is less the fact that it's another galaxy and more that they are quite blatantly violating their own lore which puts hard limits on ftl travel without the use of a relay. Bioware's use of "A Wizard Did It" to justify breaks in their own setting has long been a source of frustration for myself and others. But basing an entire new story, and possibly series on it? Again, I ask, what is there to be optimistic about this? I don't look forward to pwning aliens in the face, or banging the crew, or even joy-riding across alien landscapes. All that might be fun, but the true draw for me is a science fiction role playing game. There's really not much of that out there.

And all the pretty graphics and awesome gameplay in the world is not going to save such a game for me if the story is crap. Hell, I'll take a well-told Unity engine RPG over a handwave-invested Frostbite shooter.

So no, best effort isn't necessarily "good enough" for me. I may admire the attempt, and appreciate the effort that went into it. But failure is still failure. And will this be a failure? Honestly, I don't know. Because they are keeping quiet on virtually everything about the game. How long was it before we even go the protagonist's name? But that kind of secrecy doesn't inspire confidence in me. If they can't even tell us "How did we get there?" Does it really matter if they are taking risks or playing it safe if we are being kept in the dark? What is there to be optimistic about? I have plenty of past examples on what to be pessimistic about, but what is there to offset that?

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Is Bioware playing it safe? Nov 16, 2016 16:06:30 GMT blah23 likes this

Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2016 16:06:30 GMT

Nov 16, 2016 15:51:43 GMT Iakus said:

Nov 16, 2016 5:38:30 GMT @upupaway95 said:

I'm not sure why you're apologizing. It's certainly not necessary and it is probably an indication that I'm still coming across in ways I'm not intending to come across. I do understand your frustration. I think a similar frustration is being felt on both sides of this debate... if only because this same debate had been going on at the old BSN for years and shows no real signs of letting up here either. Under the circumstances (and as I said in my very first post on this thread), I would not blame Bioware for trying to play it as safe as they can. As some others have posted though... even attempting to do anything with this franchise beyond what was already done has been a huge risk for them... and if they had not taken that risk, none of us would have any game to be even curious about. So, they are taking this chance... knowing that they will only please some of us... and I applaud their courage for doing so regardless of how the game actually turns out. I also believe that they are putting their best efforts into it... and anyone's best effort is usually always "good enough" for me.

I fully expect them to play it safe. And there's nothing wrong with that. Tried and true story elements are tried and true for a reason: people like them. A familiar story can still be a good story if it's told well.

But yes, I was shocked to hear they were making another Mass Effect game so quickly. I expected a few more years on the shelf before someone would try to open that box again (much like what happened with the Deus Ex: Invisible War fiasco) Going back to Mass Effect at all is a risk.

But the thing is, they're taking two other risks: They are keeping the endings in place, even if they are attempting to sidestep them. They are determined to keep their 'art", even if it's so radioactive it contaminates the entire MW from further exploration.

Second, almost an extension of that, is that we are traveling to another galaxy. The risk here is less the fact that it's another galaxy and more that they are quite blatantly violating their own lore which puts hard limits on ftl travel without the use of a relay. Bioware's use of "A Wizard Did It" to justify breaks in their own setting has long been a source of frustration for myself and others. But basing an entire new story, and possibly series on it? Again, I ask, what is there to be optimistic about this? I don't look forward to pwning aliens in the face, or banging the crew, or even joy-riding across alien landscapes. All that might be fun, but the true draw for me is a science fiction role playing game. There's really not much of that out there.

And all the pretty graphics and awesome gameplay in the world is not going to save such a game for me if the story is crap. Hell, I'll take a well-told Unity engine RPG over a handwave-invested Frostbite shooter.

So no, best effort isn't necessarily "good enough" for me. I may admire the attempt, and appreciate the effort that went into it. But failure is still failure. And will this be a failure? Honestly, I don't know. Because they are keeping quiet on virtually everything about the game. How long was it before we even go the protagonist's name? But that kind of secrecy doesn't inspire confidence in me. If they can't even tell us "How did we get there?" Does it really matter if they are taking risks or playing it safe if we are being kept in the dark? What is there to be optimistic about? I have plenty of past examples on what to be pessimistic about, but what is there to offset that?

We've had this discussion before... and I respect you're position, I really do. Given what's been already put in place, though... you can choose to dump the old lore and try to start fresh with the new. Hopefully, the lore they do write fresh for this series (and I hope it is a series) will be more thoughtfully written and hold together better. It's a single leap of faith... a big one, yes, FOR SURE... and not one, I understand, you're willing to make right now. Still, if it is a reasonably good game and the reviews are reasonably good... would you perhaps consider making that leap... just forgetting the old lore and adopt ME:A as though it was the first Mass Effect ever written? Since there are few science fiction RPGs out there... maybe, just maybe, it might be worth it to do that, huh?

Last Edit: Nov 16, 2016 21:02:00 GMT by Deleted

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Is Bioware playing it safe? Nov 16, 2016 16:15:35 GMT

Post by themikefest on Nov 16, 2016 16:15:35 GMT

Nov 16, 2016 14:02:40 GMT Cyberstrike said:

I'm pretty much the same way especially once The Extended Cut was released that answered all the questions I had, but for MANY fans here and elsewhere the endings are, to put it nicely, still problematic for them and I'm sure there are several people here who can explain in great detail what the problems are/were with the all of the various endings.

For me, the only thing the extended cut fixed is the flashbacks as Shepard was choosing an ending. I will say it introduced one of the funniest scenes I've seen in the trilogy and that is the what-the-crap evac scene. The extended cut left some questions unanswered.

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Is Bioware playing it safe? Nov 16, 2016 16:29:40 GMT

Post by Iakus on Nov 16, 2016 16:29:40 GMT

Nov 16, 2016 16:06:30 GMT @upupaway95 said:

We've had this discussion before... and I respect you're position, I really do. Given what's been already put in place, though... you can choose to dump the old lore and try to start fresh with the new. Hopefully, the lore they do write fresh for this series (and I hope it is a series) will be more thoughtfully written and hold together better. It's a single leap of faith... a big one, yes, FOR SURE... and not one, I understand, you're willing to make right now. Still, if it is a reasonably good game and the reviews are reasonably good... would you perhaps consider making that leap... just forgetting the old lore and adopt ME:A as though it was the first Mass Effect ever written? Since there are few science ficition RPGs out there... maybe, just maybe, it might be worth it to do that, huh?

If I was willing to make a "leap of faith" in rewriting the lore I would have gone with Synthesis

As it is, and as I've said before, if they really wanted to forget the old lore and start fresh, why did they put 'Mass Effect" in the title? Why not make it a new IP? Or at least do a hard reboot like the two Battlestar series? How can there be a fresh start when you keep the old settings yet butcher the lore that made that setting what it is?

And the only other science fiction RPGs out there I'm aware of are

Fallout
Deus Ex
Shadowrun returns (which is as much fantasy as science fiction anyway)
There's also teh upcoming Torment: Tides of Numenera, but that's still in beta testing

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Is Bioware playing it safe? Nov 16, 2016 16:36:58 GMT Trilobite Derby likes this

Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2016 16:36:58 GMT

Nov 16, 2016 16:29:40 GMT Iakus said:

Nov 16, 2016 16:06:30 GMT @upupaway95 said:

We've had this discussion before... and I respect you're position, I really do. Given what's been already put in place, though... you can choose to dump the old lore and try to start fresh with the new. Hopefully, the lore they do write fresh for this series (and I hope it is a series) will be more thoughtfully written and hold together better. It's a single leap of faith... a big one, yes, FOR SURE... and not one, I understand, you're willing to make right now. Still, if it is a reasonably good game and the reviews are reasonably good... would you perhaps consider making that leap... just forgetting the old lore and adopt ME:A as though it was the first Mass Effect ever written? Since there are few science ficition RPGs out there... maybe, just maybe, it might be worth it to do that, huh?

If I was willing to make a "leap of faith" in rewriting the lore I would have gone with Synthesis

As it is, and as I've said before, if they really wanted to forget the old lore and start fresh, why did they put 'Mass Effect" in the title? Why not make it a new IP? Or at least do a hard reboot like the two Battlestar series? How can there be a fresh start when you keep the old settings yet butcher the lore that made that setting what it is?

And the only other science fiction RPGs out there I'm aware of are

Fallout
Deus Ex
Shadowrun returns (which is as much fantasy as science fiction anyway)
There's also teh upcoming Torment: Tides of Numenera, but that's still in beta testing

You know I can't answer "why" on behalf of Bioware. All I know is what is... this is what they have decided (note past tense) to do. It's as much "ancient history" as the endings themselves are. Holding on to "ancient history" can be, IMO, pretty fruitless. People who favor destroy should understand that.

We have no control over Bioware and refuse just means we miss out on playing the game.

Last Edit: Nov 16, 2016 16:39:46 GMT by Deleted

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Is Bioware playing it safe? Nov 16, 2016 17:15:49 GMT

Post by SofaJockey on Nov 16, 2016 17:15:49 GMT

Nov 16, 2016 5:03:19 GMT Iakus said:

Nov 15, 2016 22:20:42 GMT SofaJockey said:

I like UUA's post.

There is room for everyone here.
Don't like what someone else says?
Pivot the conversation, don't beat up the other person.

Don't 'boo', post what you think

.

The edge statements 'love it all', 'hate it all' are largely consistent, so the most interesting discussion is between the two, in my view.

That doesn't mean that perspectives at the edges can't be eloquent, they can, if intelligently expressed.

I have not once attacked another person here for their opinions on Mass Effect or anything else.

I cannot say the reverse is true.

i might usefully add that Iakus is one of those people who I consider expresses themselves eloquently and whose posts I have come to respect, even if I don't always agree with them

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Is Bioware playing it safe? Nov 16, 2016 17:39:16 GMT via mobile

Post by Sylvius the Mad on Nov 16, 2016 17:39:16 GMT

Nov 16, 2016 1:30:43 GMT daniel said:

What about the part on the Krogan home world where you had to choose wether or not to shoot Mordin? To me that was one of the best parts in the trilogy.

1. Assuming Mordin was there.

2. If I recall correctly, Mordin could be talked down rather than shot (I could be wrong about that).

3. The choice regarding the genophage had been addressed so many times preciously in the trilogy, I'd say it was a previously solved problem. There's no way that scene was the first time Shepard was dealing with that question, so the choice should have been trivial.

People often told me how much they loved the moment on Virmire in ME1 where they had to decide to shoot Wrex. That one always irritated me, not only because you could just talk Wrex out of his anger (which made no sense), but more because I actually wanted Shepard to agree with him. If there was meaningful genophage research in that facility, I wanted to recover it, not destroy it. I never understood that sequence.

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Is Bioware playing it safe? Nov 16, 2016 17:42:16 GMT

Post by The Elder King on Nov 16, 2016 17:42:16 GMT

Mordin can be talked out it, I think, if you have a combination of Wrex and Bakara being dead. With both of them alive you surely don't have the choice.

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Is Bioware playing it safe? Nov 16, 2016 17:45:23 GMT The Elder King likes this

Post by themikefest on Nov 16, 2016 17:45:23 GMT

Nov 16, 2016 17:39:16 GMT Sylvius the Mad said:

2. If I recall correctly, Mordin could be talked down rather than shot (I could be wrong about that).

Yes. It only happens if Maelon's data is deleted or the loyalty mission was never completed and Wrev is in charge. Reputation has to be high enough as well. Do not mention the dalatross wanting to sabotage it to eve in the vehicle. Choose the bottom right dialogue.

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Is Bioware playing it safe? Nov 16, 2016 18:35:42 GMT The Elder King and Sylvius the Mad like this

Post by Iakus on Nov 16, 2016 18:35:42 GMT

Nov 16, 2016 17:39:16 GMT Sylvius the Mad said:

People often told me how much they loved the moment on Virmire in ME1 where they had to decide to shoot Wrex. That one always irritated me, not only because you could just talk Wrex out of his anger (which made no sense), but more because I actually wanted Shepard to agree with him. If there was meaningful genophage research in that facility, I wanted to recover it, not destroy it. I never understood that sequence.

Guess I should mention that in my first playthrough of ME1 I wasted a LOT of time on that mission searching for genophage data to download

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Is Bioware playing it safe? Nov 16, 2016 19:34:05 GMT

Post by themikefest on Nov 16, 2016 19:34:05 GMT

Nov 16, 2016 18:51:51 GMT daniel said:

If you did decide to shoot Mordin and back in Mass Effect 1 had let Wrex live he returns and tries to kill you. It shows how brilliantly Bioware put these games together.

If I was Wrex, I would've waited until the reapers were stopped.

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Is Bioware playing it safe? Nov 16, 2016 21:06:24 GMT Sylvius the Mad likes this

Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2016 21:06:24 GMT

Nov 16, 2016 19:34:05 GMT themikefest said:

Nov 16, 2016 18:51:51 GMT daniel said:

If you did decide to shoot Mordin and back in Mass Effect 1 had let Wrex live he returns and tries to kill you. It shows how brilliantly Bioware put these games together.

If I was Wrex, I would've waited until the reapers were stopped.

Don't you really mean if Wrex was you, he would have waited. The thing that Wrex does is logical to Wrex... which is not the same as something being logical to the player. We're not playing as Wrex... so Wrex can do illogical things. I don't think killing a person who has betrayed him, even in the middle of a war, is something that Wrex would hesitate to do even if it wasn't the most sensible thing to do.

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Is Bioware playing it safe? Nov 16, 2016 21:55:01 GMT

Post by themikefest on Nov 16, 2016 21:55:01 GMT

Nov 16, 2016 21:06:24 GMT @upupaway95 said:

Don't you really mean if Wrex was you, he would have waited. The thing that Wrex does is logical to Wrex... which is not the same as something being logical to the player. We're not playing as Wrex... so Wrex can do illogical things. I don't think killing a person who has betrayed him, even in the middle of a war, is something that Wrex would hesitate to do even if it wasn't the most sensible thing to do.

No. I mean't what I said. It wasn't the most sensible thing to do just like it wasn't the most sensible thing to do when aiming his weapon at Shepard on Virmire.

Last Edit: Nov 16, 2016 21:55:35 GMT by themikefest

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Is Bioware playing it safe? Nov 16, 2016 21:57:09 GMT

Post by ravenous on Nov 16, 2016 21:57:09 GMT

I always had problems keeping Eve alive in ME3 on legendary, a friend suggested why don't you play at a much lower difficulty and I just balk at it like are you out of your mind. I always play a game on the hardest difficulty from the start if I can or if I can't then I play the current difficulty to unlock the hardest difficulty.

One of my friends was talking to me recently how he'd like to see a ME game where you play like a Turian, Asari etc non human in a single player campaign instead of playing as a human and I must say that I can see that and think it would work. If that sort of thing were to happen where you can play a non human in single player campaign that I would want to play either a Turian or an Asari

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Is Bioware playing it safe? Nov 16, 2016 22:37:28 GMT

Post by crashsuit on Nov 16, 2016 22:37:28 GMT

Nov 16, 2016 21:57:09 GMT ravenous said:

I always had problems keeping Eve alive in ME3 on legendary, a friend suggested why don't you play at a much lower difficulty and I just balk at it like are you out of your mind. I always play a game on the hardest difficulty from the start if I can or if I can't then I play the current difficulty to unlock the hardest difficulty.

One of my friends was talking to me recently how he'd like to see a ME game where you play like a Turian, Asari etc non human in a single player campaign instead of playing as a human and I must say that I can see that and think it would work. If that sort of thing were to happen where you can play a non human in single player campaign that I would want to play either a Turian or an Asari

Campaign-wise, Mass Effect: Infiltrator had a side mission where you played as a Turian, and I think I remember there being something about strike missions in Andromeda, where you can use your MP kits to play through them. I know those aren't really the same thing as playing through an entire campaign as a non-human character, but it's something at least, and more involved in the stories than ME3's MP, where of course you can play as pretty much any race you want. Personally I'd love to see a Mass Effect prequel/sidequel centered on a Turian in C-Sec in one of the Citadel wards, or maybe playing as some kind of enforcer on Omega. Something like an L.A. Noire or Batman style game, with Mass Effect game mechanics. I'm perfectly happy playing through Mass Effect campaigns as a human, but BioWare keeps hearing from people who want to be able to play as a non-human, who knows what we might see from them in the future?

Last Edit: Nov 16, 2016 22:40:35 GMT by crashsuit

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Is Bioware playing it safe? Nov 16, 2016 22:42:00 GMT

Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2016 22:42:00 GMT

Nov 16, 2016 21:55:01 GMT themikefest said:

Nov 16, 2016 21:06:24 GMT @upupaway95 said:

Don't you really mean if Wrex was you, he would have waited. The thing that Wrex does is logical to Wrex... which is not the same as something being logical to the player. We're not playing as Wrex... so Wrex can do illogical things. I don't think killing a person who has betrayed him, even in the middle of a war, is something that Wrex would hesitate to do even if it wasn't the most sensible thing to do.

No. I mean't what I said. It wasn't the most sensible thing to do just like it wasn't the most sensible thing to do when aiming his weapon at Shepard on Virmire.

... but then you'd be a Krogan... and Krogan are portrayed as being a species driven more my emotion than logic... a species where blood rage takes them over. If you were roleplaying as Wrex, you'd be "obligated" to behave and think like a Krogan, not a human. Wrex did pretty much what any Krogan would do.

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Is Bioware playing it safe? Nov 17, 2016 10:56:02 GMT cloud9 likes this

Post by Arcian on Nov 17, 2016 10:56:02 GMT

Nov 15, 2016 20:15:42 GMT Kappa Neko said:

Nov 14, 2016 22:31:48 GMT Arcian said:

Nothing feels fresh or innovative. All they did was to add a jetpack gimmick to ME3's gameplay mechanics.

Nov 15, 2016 17:09:16 GMT 1 Arcian said:

I love Mass Effect but this game is Mass Effect in name only. I'll keep complaining until BioWare gets back on the right track or they go bankrupt from making bad games, whichever comes first.

Wait, so you want an innovative game but you ALSO want Bioware to not change or add anything new? Right. I think you have a problem there...

The people who whine about Bioware losing their way are people who do NOT want innovation or any kind of change. Which proves you're just here to complain for no reason. Please leave. Just leave.

I'm usually complaining about the story because that's 99% of what I care about in Mass Effect games. Just in this case the gameplay looks fairly bland and the jetpack seems gimmicky and clunky. I don't think they're going to be able to make it feel like an organic part of the gameplay.

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Is Bioware playing it safe? Nov 17, 2016 15:34:31 GMT

Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2016 15:34:31 GMT

I'd say so, The premise of an entire new galaxy is daunting and certainly a step into the unkown, but the trailer reveals that Bioware still places great value upon existing tropes and styles, Great mysteries, beams of light, an ancient evil, etc. The way it's paced feels very similar to what has been done before. Then there is the premise, which is intentionally ambigious about it's specifics (Remember Lazarus?). This is fairly standard for the kind of story Bioware is aiming for; We're not supposed to worry about how the Andromeda project got about or the technicalities of the ark construction. If Andromeda was the first of the franchise I'm heavily inclined to agree with this line of thought, however because we have an established universe with a detailed knowledge on it's history it becomes a lot harder to squeeze in major chain of events and making it appear legit.

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Is Bioware playing it safe? Nov 17, 2016 16:07:37 GMT Iakus likes this

Post by Arcian on Nov 17, 2016 16:07:37 GMT

Nov 17, 2016 15:34:31 GMT @ambrosyne said:

I'd say so, The premise of an entire new galaxy is daunting and certainly a step into the unkown, but the trailer reveals that Bioware still places great value upon existing tropes and styles, Great mysteries, beams of light, an ancient evil, etc. The way it's paced feels very similar to what has been done before. Then there is the premise, which is intentionally ambigious about it's specifics (Remember Lazarus?). This is fairly standard for the kind of story Bioware is aiming for; We're not supposed to worry about how the Andromeda project got about or the technicalities of the ark construction. If Andromeda was the first of the franchise I'm heavily inclined to agree with this line of thought, however because we have an established universe with a detailed knowledge on it's history it becomes a lot harder to squeeze in major chain of events and making it appear legit.

The thing is not to make it "appear" legit, the thing is to actually make it legit. A game's story is as much a part of the product as the gameplay, so why is it okay for a developer to write a bad, inconsistent story that insults the intelligence of everyone who plays it, but not okay to ship a game full of bugs that impairs the gameplay experience?

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Is Bioware playing it safe? Nov 17, 2016 16:10:02 GMT crashsuit, lilyenachaos, and 1 more like this

Post by RoboticWater on Nov 17, 2016 16:10:02 GMT

Nov 17, 2016 10:56:02 GMT Arcian said:

Nov 15, 2016 20:15:42 GMT Kappa Neko said:

Wait, so you want an innovative game but you ALSO want Bioware to not change or add anything new? Right. I think you have a problem there...

The people who whine about Bioware losing their way are people who do NOT want innovation or any kind of change. Which proves you're just here to complain for no reason. Please leave. Just leave.

I'm usually complaining about the story because that's 99% of what I care about in Mass Effect games. Just in this case the gameplay looks fairly bland and the jetpack seems gimmicky and clunky. I don't think they're going to be able to make it feel like an organic part of the gameplay.

The only gameplay we've actually seen hasn't involved any combat, of course it looks bland. Is there any combat-oriented RPG where the walking around bits aren't the least engaging parts of the game?

And what do you mean they won't be able to make the jetpack feel organic? It's a jump button, but with bigger jumps, and we've been jumping in shooters for more than a decade. Why do you think BioWare are suddenly doomed to screw up jumping mechanics? If nothing else, they can just segregate the jumping from the fighting and keep the combat as good as it always was, but somehow, I suspect they used our new vertical mobility to make the level design more vertical and encounters multi-tiered.

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Is Bioware playing it safe? Nov 17, 2016 16:17:23 GMT crashsuit, lilyenachaos, and 1 more like this

Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2016 16:17:23 GMT

Nov 17, 2016 16:07:37 GMT Arcian said:

Nov 17, 2016 15:34:31 GMT @ambrosyne said:

I'd say so, The premise of an entire new galaxy is daunting and certainly a step into the unkown, but the trailer reveals that Bioware still places great value upon existing tropes and styles, Great mysteries, beams of light, an ancient evil, etc. The way it's paced feels very similar to what has been done before. Then there is the premise, which is intentionally ambigious about it's specifics (Remember Lazarus?). This is fairly standard for the kind of story Bioware is aiming for; We're not supposed to worry about how the Andromeda project got about or the technicalities of the ark construction. If Andromeda was the first of the franchise I'm heavily inclined to agree with this line of thought, however because we have an established universe with a detailed knowledge on it's history it becomes a lot harder to squeeze in major chain of events and making it appear legit.

The thing is not to make it "appear" legit, the thing is to actually make it legit. A game's story is as much a part of the product as the gameplay, so why is it okay for a developer to write a bad, inconsistent story that insults the intelligence of everyone who plays it, but not okay to ship a game full of bugs that impairs the gameplay experience?

However, the trend all along here has been to assert that it is impossible to write anything going forward that could possibly be legit because everything that has been written so far is already so inconsistent and screwed up that there is nothing good to build on... so then, if a new Mass Effect game is to exist at all, it has no choice but to retcon something different into the lore. On the old BSN, people suggested many different ways to bring in the tech to make the trip, including a wormhole... and ALL those speculations were shot down by other fans.

So, OK, Bioware are trapped in a box and the fans just won't let them out... so then, no game gets written and we're all left with replaying the old Mass Effect Trilogy from now till the end of time. Making something "appear legit" and moving forward from that is better, IMO, than no game at all.

Oh, and making any singular ending canon would not be received as being any more "legit" than side-stepping the endings. It would just change which groups of people would be complaining about it. I say this because that was also proposed on the old BSN... and shot down just as adamantly as any of the other suggestions.

Last Edit: Nov 17, 2016 19:46:51 GMT by Deleted

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