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Post by armass81 on Nov 23, 2016 17:36:32 GMT
Pretty sure this is where their going at.
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The Elder King
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Post by The Elder King on Nov 23, 2016 17:38:33 GMT
Pretty sure this is where their going at. It's probably one of the reason behind the official exploration propaganda for the Initiative.
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Post by Ivory Samoan on Nov 23, 2016 18:29:54 GMT
As akward the ending of ME3 was I do not want one word or reapers mentioned in this new game. Curious what's out there so a bunch of humans and aliens want to explore is good enough for me. Encountering enemies and other problems can't be to difficult for Bioware writers to produce. Was not keen on a reboot thru exploring a far away universe but Bioware chose that route they should stick with it. Except this clearly isn't a reboot at all: it's a side story in the same universe without reversing any current lore (although adding to it). Curiosity and wanting to explore beyond our known boundaries has always propelled our exploratory nature forward, I think it's a fine premise for a great adventure in a new galaxy launching at a time when humanity is at it's apex in the MW (just saved the day at the Citadel, are on the council and making massive strides forward as a species and Shepard just dismantled the Collectors). It's a good way to sojourn to the side within the same universe without disrespecting the original trilogy by canonising one of the endings to move forward - although I'm not ruling that out much later on, after Andromeda series concludes and we may get a revamped MW galaxy then (like, in 2025 lol). Going out of the Milky Way is not an indicator of any form of reboot IMO, there is already confirmed mentions of Shepard in the Andromeda story (Mac on Twitter), so I can't see why the odd person might not mention something like " what was that Reaper stuff about that Shepard was spouting?" or "Weren't people saying that the geth ship Saren had was a Reaper, what in the biotic wind is a Reaper?".
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Post by Iakus on Nov 23, 2016 19:06:54 GMT
As akward the ending of ME3 was I do not want one word or reapers mentioned in this new game. Curious what's out there so a bunch of humans and aliens want to explore is good enough for me. Encountering enemies and other problems can't be to difficult for Bioware writers to produce. Was not keen on a reboot thru exploring a far away universe but Bioware chose that route they should stick with it. Except this clearly isn't a reboot at all: it's a side story in the same universe without reversing any current lore (although adding to it). Curiosity and wanting to explore beyond our known boundaries has always propelled our exploratory nature forward, I think it's a fine premise for a great adventure in a new galaxy launching at a time when humanity is at it's apex in the MW (just saved the day at the Citadel, are on the council and making massive strides forward as a species and Shepard just dismantled the Collectors). It's a good way to sojourn to the side within the same universe without disrespecting the original trilogy by canonising one of the endings to move forward - although I'm not ruling that out much later on, after Andromeda series concludes and we may get a revamped MW galaxy then (like, in 2025 lol). Going out of the Milky Way is not an indicator of any form of reboot IMO, there is already confirmed mentions of Shepard in the Andromeda story (Mac on Twitter), so I can't see why the odd person might not mention something like " what was that Reaper stuff about that Shepard was spouting?" or "Weren't people saying that the geth ship Saren had was a Reaper, what in the biotic wind is a Reaper?".They're trying to have it both ways. They want to reboot the series without actually changing anything (because that would be tacitly admitting the endings were a mistake) The problem is the tech to travel to other galaxies simply doesn't exist in the ME universe. And having that tech would have dramatically changed the balance of Council space power and influence.
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Post by The Elder King on Nov 23, 2016 19:17:24 GMT
I disagree that they didn't want to do a full reboot because they didn't want to admit the endings were a mistake, I think they just want to keep the same universe and 'lore', as well as leaving the option open to a return of the Milky Way. But we'll never know.
I do agree it's likely the explanation for the technology for going to Andromeda won't be lore friendly, but I'm waiting for the full explanation.
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Post by Iakus on Nov 23, 2016 19:33:10 GMT
I disagree that they didn't want to do a full reboot because they didn't want to admit the endings were a mistake, I think they just want to keep the same universe and 'lore', as well as leaving the option open to a return of the Milky Way. But we'll never know. I do agree it's likely the explanation for the technology for going to Andromeda won't be lore friendly, but I'm waiting for the full explanation. Except that until their either canonize an ending or reject the Shepard trilogy (or at leas the endings), a return to the MW simply cannot happen. (Well, I suppose they could introduce time travel or a Crisis on the Infinite Earths-like crossover with other Bioware IPs to reset the the events, but that might be a little extreme) And I can't be the only one to find the desire to keep the universe and its lore at the expense of its universe and lore to be rather...something..."we had to destroy the setting in order to save it"
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Post by themikefest on Nov 23, 2016 19:38:10 GMT
Except that until their either canonize an ending or reject the Shepard trilogy (or at leas the endings), a return to the MW simply cannot happen. Yeah it can. It wouldn't be hard to do. They have their get-out-of-jail-for-free card. The guy says the details have changed over time. So those details could be anything, even the endings. I'm sure the story told to him was different from the story he told the kid. If Bioware wants to go back to the Milky Way, they will. I would, but that's me.
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Post by Iakus on Nov 23, 2016 19:52:56 GMT
Except that until their either canonize an ending or reject the Shepard trilogy (or at leas the endings), a return to the MW simply cannot happen. Yeah it can. It wouldn't be hard to do. They have their get-out-of-jail-for-free card. The guy says the details have changed over time. So those details could be anything, even the endings. I'm sure the story told to him was different from the story that he told the kid. If Bioware wants to go back to the Milky Way, they will. I would, but that's me. This is true. And imo, I think it would have been the best way to go. But in the end, that is still essentially rejecting the trilogy, turning it into a "story within a story"
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Post by SofNascimento on Nov 23, 2016 21:22:07 GMT
Except this clearly isn't a reboot at all: it's a side story in the same universe without reversing any current lore (although adding to it). Curiosity and wanting to explore beyond our known boundaries has always propelled our exploratory nature forward, I think it's a fine premise for a great adventure in a new galaxy launching at a time when humanity is at it's apex in the MW (just saved the day at the Citadel, are on the council and making massive strides forward as a species and Shepard just dismantled the Collectors). It's a good way to sojourn to the side within the same universe without disrespecting the original trilogy by canonising one of the endings to move forward - although I'm not ruling that out much later on, after Andromeda series concludes and we may get a revamped MW galaxy then (like, in 2025 lol). Going out of the Milky Way is not an indicator of any form of reboot IMO, there is already confirmed mentions of Shepard in the Andromeda story (Mac on Twitter), so I can't see why the odd person might not mention something like " what was that Reaper stuff about that Shepard was spouting?" or "Weren't people saying that the geth ship Saren had was a Reaper, what in the biotic wind is a Reaper?".They're trying to have it both ways. They want to reboot the series without actually changing anything (because that would be tacitly admitting the endings were a mistake) The problem is the tech to travel to other galaxies simply doesn't exist in the ME universe. And having that tech would have dramatically changed the balance of Council space power and influence. I don't know why is so hard to acknowledge this fact. There was a moment in which Bioware just said "fuck it, forget logic and let's go to Andromeda and start again".
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Post by The Elder King on Nov 23, 2016 21:25:54 GMT
They're trying to have it both ways. They want to reboot the series without actually changing anything (because that would be tacitly admitting the endings were a mistake) The problem is the tech to travel to other galaxies simply doesn't exist in the ME universe. And having that tech would have dramatically changed the balance of Council space power and influence. I don't know why is so hard to acknowledge this fact. There was a moment in which Bioware just said "fuck it, forget logic and let's go to Andromeda and start again". Because people have different opinions on the Andromeda trip, and if it makes sense or not lorewise. There were discussions about it since the name was revealed (actually before with the leak and the ARKCON theory), and there was and is a side that think that it makes sense and it might not be against the lore.
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Post by SofNascimento on Nov 23, 2016 21:36:33 GMT
I don't know why is so hard to acknowledge this fact. There was a moment in which Bioware just said "fuck it, forget logic and let's go to Andromeda and start again". Because people have different opinions on the Andromeda trip, and if it makes sense or not lorewise. There were discussions about it since the name was revealed (actually before with the leak and the ARKCON theory), and there was and is a side that think that it makes sense and it might not be against the lore. It makes sense if you consider Mass Effect a cartoon-ish universe with no pretentious to be realistic. That's why I the way I see it the Arks came from another 'Mass Effect universe'. In the trilogy that I played there were no Arks before Andromeda was announced and there was no Arks after. That mess won't taint my Shepard's universe.
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Post by The Elder King on Nov 23, 2016 21:47:06 GMT
Because people have different opinions on the Andromeda trip, and if it makes sense or not lorewise. There were discussions about it since the name was revealed (actually before with the leak and the ARKCON theory), and there was and is a side that think that it makes sense and it might not be against the lore. It makes sense if you consider Mass Effect a cartoon-ish universe with no pretentious to be realistic. That's why I the way I see it the Arks came from another 'Mass Effect universe'. In the trilogy that I played there were no Arks before Andromeda was announced and there was no Arks after. That mess won't taint my Shepard's universe. I disagree with that notion, even if I think it won't make sense once they explained everything. But I'm not going to judge beforehand, and some of the people that suggested the Ark theory or supported it doesn't believe the ME universe is cartoonish and irrealistic. This is just your (and shared with many others, of course) opinion.
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Post by Wulfram on Nov 23, 2016 21:50:50 GMT
They're trying to have it both ways. They want to reboot the series without actually changing anything (because that would be tacitly admitting the endings were a mistake) The problem is the tech to travel to other galaxies simply doesn't exist in the ME universe. And having that tech would have dramatically changed the balance of Council space power and influence. Having that tech wouldn't change the balance of Council space power very much as far as I can see. The big issues with inter-galactic travel would seem to be fuel and drive discharge, but both of those are a lot less of a problem within the galaxy.
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Post by Iakus on Nov 23, 2016 21:51:37 GMT
Because people have different opinions on the Andromeda trip, and if it makes sense or not lorewise. There were discussions about it since the name was revealed (actually before with the leak and the ARKCON theory), and there was and is a side that think that it makes sense and it might not be against the lore. It makes sense if you consider Mass Effect a cartoon-ish universe with no pretentious to be realistic. That's why I the way I see it the Arks came from another 'Mass Effect universe'. In the trilogy that I played there were no Arks before Andromeda was announced and there was no Arks after. That mess won't taint my Shepard's universe. On one hand, I can understand that rationality. It's how I explain Anders in Dragon Age 2. No that isn't the same Anders that was in Awakening, it's a different apostate mage who happens to be named "Anders" and was recruited into the Grey Wardens, likes cats, and befriended a Spirit of Justice. OTOH, I'm not so sure about a story which I have to do that with the very foundation of the setting...
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Post by The Elder King on Nov 23, 2016 21:54:47 GMT
It makes sense if you consider Mass Effect a cartoon-ish universe with no pretentious to be realistic. That's why I the way I see it the Arks came from another 'Mass Effect universe'. In the trilogy that I played there were no Arks before Andromeda was announced and there was no Arks after. That mess won't taint my Shepard's universe. On one hand, I can understand that rationality. It's how I explain Anders in Dragon Age 2. No that isn't the same Anders that was in Awakening, it's a different apostate mage who happens to be named "Anders" and was recruited into the Grey Wardens, likes cats, and befriended a Spirit of Justice. OTOH, I'm not so sure about a story which I have to do that with the very foundation of the setting... I don't understand the piece about Anders. Not that he's not the same as in Awakening, but that it needs an alt universe explanation. His difference in DA2 is explained by being J/V's host. His feeling are heightened because of the spirit, and he was the one that convinced him to fight for the mages. Awakening foreshadowed that in the banter.
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Post by Iakus on Nov 23, 2016 22:02:57 GMT
They're trying to have it both ways. They want to reboot the series without actually changing anything (because that would be tacitly admitting the endings were a mistake) The problem is the tech to travel to other galaxies simply doesn't exist in the ME universe. And having that tech would have dramatically changed the balance of Council space power and influence. Having that tech wouldn't change the balance of Council space power very much as far as I can see. The big issues with inter-galactic travel would seem to be fuel and drive discharge, but both of those are a lot less of a problem within the galaxy. It absolutely would. Right now there's a pretty hard limit on how far you can stray from a relay without discharging, severely limiting exploration (it's even in the codex). Without that limit, you can travel as far as you like, with the only limits being food and fuel. And the Council limits exploration of the relay networks,. No unlocking dormant relays. Humans can settle here, batarians can't. No, quarians you can't settle anywhere. If you weren't reliant on the relays, you can just go "second star on the right, and straight on til morning". You can go to any system you like. And not even be tracked (since ftl travel is untraceable) The Council would have no say in who can settle where. They can't even properly patrol their own colonies, let alone people who just pile into a freighter and go somewhere. The quarians could expand their search for a new homeworld a hundredfold, rather than drifing from one relay to the next. batarians and humans could stop fighting over worlds (or fight over different worlds, maybe) More worlds for the krogan, etc. That whole feeling of exploring new worlds Andromeda is supposed to bring us? yeah, it could be done in the Milky Way, no problem. If it wasn't for that darned "Art" getting in the way
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Post by Iakus on Nov 23, 2016 22:05:23 GMT
On one hand, I can understand that rationality. It's how I explain Anders in Dragon Age 2. No that isn't the same Anders that was in Awakening, it's a different apostate mage who happens to be named "Anders" and was recruited into the Grey Wardens, likes cats, and befriended a Spirit of Justice. OTOH, I'm not so sure about a story which I have to do that with the very foundation of the setting... I don't understand the piece about Anders. Not that he's not the same as in Awakening, but that it needs an alt universe explanation. His difference in DA2 is explained by being J/V's host. His feeling are heightened because of the spirit, and he was the one that convinced him to fight for the mages. Awakening foreshadowed that in the banter. And in my endings, Anders stays at the Vigil. And originally, Velanna was going to be Justice's new host. There's actually more foreshadowing of that than Anders
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Post by The Elder King on Nov 23, 2016 22:21:35 GMT
I don't understand the piece about Anders. Not that he's not the same as in Awakening, but that it needs an alt universe explanation. His difference in DA2 is explained by being J/V's host. His feeling are heightened because of the spirit, and he was the one that convinced him to fight for the mages. Awakening foreshadowed that in the banter. And in my endings, Anders stays at the Vigil. And originally, Velanna was going to be Justice's new host. There's actually more foreshadowing of that than Anders Heh, fair enough. They did give an explanation though. I meant there was foreshadowing of Justice leading Anders to fight for the mages, not for the host. Sorry if I wasn't clear.
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Post by Wulfram on Nov 23, 2016 23:00:14 GMT
It absolutely would. Right now there's a pretty hard limit on how far you can stray from a relay without discharging, severely limiting exploration (it's even in the codex). Without that limit, you can travel as far as you like, with the only limits being food and fuel. And the Council limits exploration of the relay networks,. No unlocking dormant relays. Humans can settle here, batarians can't. No, quarians you can't settle anywhere. If you weren't reliant on the relays, you can just go "second star on the right, and straight on til morning". You can go to any system you like. And not even be tracked (since ftl travel is untraceable) The Council would have no say in who can settle where. They can't even properly patrol their own colonies, let alone people who just pile into a freighter and go somewhere. The quarians could expand their search for a new homeworld a hundredfold, rather than drifing from one relay to the next. batarians and humans could stop fighting over worlds (or fight over different worlds, maybe) More worlds for the krogan, etc. That whole feeling of exploring new worlds Andromeda is supposed to bring us? yeah, it could be done in the Milky Way, no problem. If it wasn't for that darned "Art" getting in the way Discharging basically just needs a planet. I don't see how its a constraint, except that it'll slow you down a bit. People can just go off and settle away from the relay network, its just a pretty crappy option because you're cutting yourself off from the rest of the world. And they can settle worlds in the Terminus systems, like Horizon, if they want to and can defend themselves from the other inhabitants.
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Post by jamiecotc on Nov 23, 2016 23:55:30 GMT
I feel that w/ Control and Synthesis endings, Milky Way residents (And Even Reaper Shepard) could use Reaper technology to advance in all manner of ways, then advance from that in the coming decades and centuries and theoretically beat Ryder to Andromeda.
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Post by Ivory Samoan on Nov 24, 2016 1:39:38 GMT
Yeah it can. It wouldn't be hard to do. They have their get-out-of-jail-for-free card. The guy says the details have changed over time. So those details could be anything, even the endings. I'm sure the story told to him was different from the story that he told the kid. If Bioware wants to go back to the Milky Way, they will. I would, but that's me. This is true. And imo, I think it would have been the best way to go. But in the end, that is still essentially rejecting the trilogy, turning it into a "story within a story" What I was referring to was possibly making one of the endings canon after a looong time has passed (I'm talking in the mid 2020s here). By that time a return to the MW is very possible, in that the lore is kept in place, and the only thing that is retconned/changed is the choice at the end of the trilogy. Plenty of series do this (Deus Ex recently just made one choice canon for the sake of moving forward for example), and by that time I'm nigh on sure even the most ardent ending haters will have mellowed to the point of "meh, all good". This would be of course after a few games in the Andromeda galaxy with Ryder et al, I'm picking 2 released in 2017 and ~2021 or thereabouts. God, 2021 sounds so futuristic eh lol I feel that w/ Control and Synthesis endings, Milky Way residents (And Even Reaper Shepard) could use Reaper technology to advance in all manner of ways, then advance from that in the coming decades and centuries and theoretically beat Ryder to Andromeda. I would love this, finding a pocket of settled humans who have already sullied our name with the local galaxy law enforcement; would make for an awesome twist. The endings choice would obviously sort of throw this into the 'too soon' basket with most, but I would be happy if they did since I'm a dirty Indoc Theory lover
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Iakus on Nov 24, 2016 2:01:21 GMT
It absolutely would. Right now there's a pretty hard limit on how far you can stray from a relay without discharging, severely limiting exploration (it's even in the codex). Without that limit, you can travel as far as you like, with the only limits being food and fuel. And the Council limits exploration of the relay networks,. No unlocking dormant relays. Humans can settle here, batarians can't. No, quarians you can't settle anywhere. If you weren't reliant on the relays, you can just go "second star on the right, and straight on til morning". You can go to any system you like. And not even be tracked (since ftl travel is untraceable) The Council would have no say in who can settle where. They can't even properly patrol their own colonies, let alone people who just pile into a freighter and go somewhere. The quarians could expand their search for a new homeworld a hundredfold, rather than drifing from one relay to the next. batarians and humans could stop fighting over worlds (or fight over different worlds, maybe) More worlds for the krogan, etc. That whole feeling of exploring new worlds Andromeda is supposed to bring us? yeah, it could be done in the Milky Way, no problem. If it wasn't for that darned "Art" getting in the way Discharging basically just needs a planet. I don't see how its a constraint, except that it'll slow you down a bit. People can just go off and settle away from the relay network, its just a pretty crappy option because you're cutting yourself off from the rest of the world. And they can settle worlds in the Terminus systems, like Horizon, if they want to and can defend themselves from the other inhabitants. And you need a planet (with a magnetosphere, this is important) within range. Which is not a guarantee. Even mass-effect-FTL drive is slow relative to the volume of the galaxy. Empty space and systems without suitable drive discharge sites are barriers to exploration. Only the mass relays allow ships to jump hundreds of light years in an instant, the key to expanding across an otherwise impassable galaxy.
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Post by SofNascimento on Nov 24, 2016 2:11:54 GMT
And you need a planet (with a magnetosphere, this is important) within range. Which is not a guarantee. Even mass-effect-FTL drive is slow relative to the volume of the galaxy. Empty space and systems without suitable drive discharge sites are barriers to exploration. Only the mass relays allow ships to jump hundreds of light years in an instant, the key to expanding across an otherwise impassable galaxy.
Yep. The worst thing is that shattering the lore is nothing even the worst part about the AI. The sheer lack of logic of such a project makes it a testament that the people working in Mass Effect right now do not care about reason at all.
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Post by colfoley on Nov 24, 2016 2:28:33 GMT
Kind of glad Columbus or Magellan didn't share these views on logic.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 24, 2016 2:34:10 GMT
Kind of glad Columbus or Magellan didn't share these views on logic. To be fair their reasons weren't the same as AI's. The Andromeda Initiative is doing it just for exploration, whereas Columbus and Magellan did it to discover good trade routes so were doing it for economic benefit.
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