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Post by The Elder King on Dec 31, 2016 7:06:10 GMT
I don't think they're going to have the same exact backstory because they're different characters. Not that I think it'd actually be that different like the example mentioned, but they're not the same person. I don't think they should have the same options as well, because it'd mean the sibling npc isn't a definite character but a swap with yours, which they don't want to do, and it'd mean more work for the VAs. I'd like more options to give us choice (although keeping a set on for the siblings as npcs), but, again, it'd mean more work in the VA department. I disagree we're losing that much control. We're losing control over our background, which doesn't mean our character is a predefinite protagonist. Plenty of rpgs had a single-starting background. It's not necessary (although is something I like) for being able to roleplay a character. That's a possibility, though I hope they decided to follow DAI on that regards. Even without it, we can still have a little control of our background as in DAI, for other topics. "They're different characters". I've really grown to hate that phrase. I knew from the moment they first announced this idea I would hate it, and seems I wasn't disappointed. As you said, when as a NPC they can have a single set backstory thus stay as a definite character. Just if chosen to be the avatar is when they should have some backgrounds as options. I'm sure the VAs wouldn't care about it being extra work, since that means more money for them. And Bioware is still saving money since they are unfortunately not doing the two VAs per sex like DAI, so it would be a win-win-win. Less control over background. Check. Less control over personality. Check. Less control over certain relationships and options. Check. Sure sounds like we are losing control over them. As I said, this sounds like we are near Adam Jenson/Geralt territory. I doubt it. It seems pretty much everything good about DAI in terms of protagonists they are going the complete opposite direction. No doubt because of the vocal minority who complained about the Inquisitor. Extra work is extra work. While it's true MEA won't have the dual VA options DAI had, it seems the number of dialovurs is increased. Every project is different in terms of budget and writings. The less control about personality is something that already happened in ME3. Again, I don't see why we have to compare it to DAI. They're games from different franchises. They always did different stuff in terms of the many features, MC included, so the fact that DAI had it doesn't mean MEA would necessarily follow it. It doesn't seem as well a decision who would come from the higher ups (like the open world likely is), so the developers in the different teams choose themselves how to deal with it. Beside, I don't think it'll be as limiting as some people are suggesting. Same goes for the relationship with the family members. We always had fixed background relationship with certain characters, in most Bioware games (with maybe DAI as an exception since all the characters we know are those we meet up after the start of the game and our control, but that was not going to happen regardless of the siblings situation). It's not exactly a news. Would I prefer more control? Yes. But coming from Mass Effect, where Shepard was always the more defined character, which Was further enhanced in ME3, again, why should I or everyone expect it to be necessarily different? I'd have sure liked if they followed (some) of the decision taken for DAI in regards of the main character, but it wasn't something sure of even probable. Again, we'll wait and see about it. The fact that they're not following DAI in many points in regards of the LC (though I'm glad they increased the dialogue options again, which should give us more choices and role playing options then in ME3), but it doesn't mean there might not be something they took from it. |
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Post by dmc1001 on Dec 31, 2016 7:07:15 GMT
Ok. You can either be Sara or Scott. In the same manner, you can either be a Human or a Qunari. Should they have the exact same personalities? Yes. I said yes to that multiple times now. If we could be a Human or a Qunari, both should have all the same personality options. Happy, angry, sincere, sarcastic, etc. Both should have all as options than be restricted to only Human or Qunari. Happy, angry, sincere, etc, yes, but the actual dialogue responses shouldn't be identical. I think that's what the OP is getting at. It was one thing for BroShep and FemShep to get a lot of dialogue that's similar because they're functionally the same character. With Scott and Sara we have different characters who ought to be treated differently. |
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The Elder King
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Post by The Elder King on Dec 31, 2016 7:08:04 GMT
I tend toward the defaults. I've read tons of ME fanfic and while I have no problem enjoying a Shepard of a non-default name, when I see "John Shepard" (or Jane, but I mostly read about BroShep) it resonates somehow as "correct". That is, it's the default so my mind seems to make it more compatible. It's perhaps more true in ME:A because I'm guessing that if I play BroRyder, my sister is still going to be Sara and if I play SisRyder my brother will be Scott. Perhaps we can alter the sibling name as well but it seems unlikely. Hence, Scott and Sara make the most sense to me. I'm almost certain Bioware said that you cannot change your sibling's name, so if you play male your sister will always be Sarah and if you play female your brother will always be Scott. Considering they put in only the default name to be recognized for the MC, it's obvious there won't be a choice for the sibling. It'd create more problems to not have the sibling npc's name recognized then The one picked by the players. |
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 31, 2016 7:41:52 GMT
Yes. I said yes to that multiple times now. If we could be a Human or a Qunari, both should have all the same personality options. Happy, angry, sincere, sarcastic, etc. Both should have all as options than be restricted to only Human or Qunari. Happy, angry, sincere, etc, yes, but the actual dialogue responses shouldn't be identical. I think that's what the OP is getting at. It was one thing for BroShep and FemShep to get a lot of dialogue that's similar because they're functionally the same character. With Scott and Sara we have different characters who ought to be treated differently. By dialogue responses not being identical and treated differently, do you mean what Ryder says or what the person they are talking to says? If the latter then yes I agree since for some scenarios that wouldn't work, like for example flirting with LIs who are only attracted to one sex. If you mean the former then no I disagree because they are the same character in this situation: our character. |
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 31, 2016 7:52:04 GMT
"They're different characters". I've really grown to hate that phrase. I knew from the moment they first announced this idea I would hate it, and seems I wasn't disappointed. As you said, when as a NPC they can have a single set backstory thus stay as a definite character. Just if chosen to be the avatar is when they should have some backgrounds as options. I'm sure the VAs wouldn't care about it being extra work, since that means more money for them. And Bioware is still saving money since they are unfortunately not doing the two VAs per sex like DAI, so it would be a win-win-win. Less control over background. Check. Less control over personality. Check. Less control over certain relationships and options. Check. Sure sounds like we are losing control over them. As I said, this sounds like we are near Adam Jenson/Geralt territory. I doubt it. It seems pretty much everything good about DAI in terms of protagonists they are going the complete opposite direction. No doubt because of the vocal minority who complained about the Inquisitor. Extra work is extra work. While it's true MEA won't have the dual VA options DAI had, it seems the number of dialovurs is increased. Every project is different in terms of budget and writings. The less control about personality is something that already happened in ME3. Again, I don't see why we have to compare it to DAI. They're games from different franchises. They always did different stuff in terms of the many features, MC included, so the fact that DAI had it doesn't mean MEA would necessarily follow it. It doesn't seem as well a decision who would come from the higher ups (like the open world likely is), so the developers in the different teams choose themselves how to deal with it. Beside, I don't think it'll be as limiting as some people are suggesting. Same goes for the relationship with the family members. We always had fixed background relationship with certain characters, in most Bioware games (with maybe DAI as an exception since all the characters we know are those we meet up after the start of the game and our control, but that was not going to happen regardless of the siblings situation). It's not exactly a news. Would I prefer more control? Yes. But coming from Mass Effect, where Shepard was always the more defined character, which Was further enhanced in ME3, again, why should I or everyone expect it to be necessarily different? I'd have sure liked if they followed (some) of the decision taken for DAI in regards of the main character, but it wasn't something sure of even probable. Again, we'll wait and see about it. The fact that they're not following DAI in many points in regards of the LC (though I'm glad they increased the dialogue options again, which should give us more choices and role playing options then in ME3), but it doesn't mean there might not be something they took from it. While yes they are from different franchise they are both made from the same company who has taken what has worked in one and applied it the other in the past, like Dragon Age taking the dialogue wheel. But yes they won't necessarily follow it. We've had the nebulous or no predetermined relationships in a few other Bioware games, like for example KOTOR. Granted that was because of us being a new person via the power of amnesia but still. But yeah, I knew that was going to be a negative thing ever since they announced it, but I figured we could possibly have a few options for background that determined relationship. I don't see anything else they could have taken from the Inquisitor for the Ryder siblings. Yeah, I guess the joke is on me for expecting the best out of them in regards to that. Normally they overcorrect fan complaints so I guess I was hoping this would be one of those times.  |
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The Elder King
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Post by The Elder King on Dec 31, 2016 9:34:41 GMT
It happened in Origins in certain ones, in DA2 and ME as well. Certain background relationships were fixed, and some couldn't have been changed even later on (Anderson), as well as Mass Effect games forcing certain relationships on the players.
They of course could've taken more for the inquisitor. I guess it's just my negative experience in regards of ME3 auto dialogue and dialogue options that didn't lead me to hope for more.
They could still have taken something in regards of defining something (or some opinion) about our background and past experiences in dialogues, as well as the relationships with the family members prior the game, even if unlikely. We'll have to wait and see, though not expecting much on this point might be the best choice.
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Post by dalinne on Dec 31, 2016 9:45:06 GMT
At this point, I just hope different PC won't translate into Sara Ryder constantly sexual harrassed  |
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Post by hammerstorm on Dec 31, 2016 9:47:14 GMT
I think it is best to wait until we know what the difference is before we start throw a tantrum.
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Post by Kian on Dec 31, 2016 10:56:36 GMT
Soooooooo.....how about that Scott......?  You know, it's weird. I've noticed that I only refer to the twins as Scott and Sarah (not broRyder and sisRyder, like some others). I have a feeling that I'm going to leave their names default, even though I pretty much ALWAYS change the name. The only game where I didn't change the default names was DA2, the OTHER game with a preset family. I don't love the names Scott and Sarah (conversely, I loved Garrett and Marion), but I think it's pretty much a done deal in my mind already. I don't particularly like the name Scott either, but if this will be the only name available in game to be used by other characters (as opposed to a list we can choose from, which would be amazing, but eh, I can understand how much more work it would imply so I'm not too hopeful about it) than I'll go with it. I'm talking about other characters reffering to you by your first name lol... I was a bit unclear there.  |
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Post by Kian on Dec 31, 2016 11:00:19 GMT
I did post about how we'll be seeing scott at the keynote next week. But it got burried, on a page of people crying about being uncomfortable. Not even burried by the pictures. The irony. They swap back and forth between Scott and Sarah Ryder for trailers so we will be seeing Scott at the NVIDIA keynote.  Didn't know this, cool, thanks  Looking forward to more trailers or gameplay (even better) and especially if it's focused on Scott, so this is great. PS: Just block the trolls and move on. Reading some of their posts is enough to see what you're dealing with haha... so not worth the effort |
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Post by saberchic on Dec 31, 2016 15:26:26 GMT
I think it is best to wait until we know what the difference is before we start throw a tantrum. What? Get out of here with your common sense! You're ruining people's doom and gloom parade. They want to be miserable, and you are throwing logic into it! The nerve!  |
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Post by President of Boom on Dec 31, 2016 16:18:22 GMT
Whom I choose as my canon PC usually depends to a great extent on the VA. For instance, female Shepard is the only Shepard for me solely because of the voice acting. I gave male Shepard a chance, but in contrast to the female version I found him as interesting as the guy reading the side effects at the end of the medication commercials.
The notion of two completely different personalities will make my decision much harder this time. From what I've heard so far I'm leaning toward Scott, but regardless of whom I choose there will always be the nagging feeling that maybe the other sibling has a more interesting background/lines/personality.
I know it doesn't seem very likely, but I'm still hoping that the NPC sibling will eventually become either the main villain or the right hand of the main villain. I'm also hoping that the predetermined differences between the PC sibling and NPC sibling will somehow contribute to this.
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Post by dmc1001 on Dec 31, 2016 17:41:23 GMT
Happy, angry, sincere, etc, yes, but the actual dialogue responses shouldn't be identical. I think that's what the OP is getting at. It was one thing for BroShep and FemShep to get a lot of dialogue that's similar because they're functionally the same character. With Scott and Sara we have different characters who ought to be treated differently. By dialogue responses not being identical and treated differently, do you mean what Ryder says or what the person they are talking to says? If the latter then yes I agree since for some scenarios that wouldn't work, like for example flirting with LIs who are only attracted to one sex. If you mean the former then no I disagree because they are the same character in this situation: our character. I think we're just disagreeing on this one to some extent. As I said, Scott and Sara are individual characters and so should have at least some level of different reaction to things. So, let's say BroShepard and FemShepard were siblings instead of the same person. In my mind, I shouldn't be able to allow both of them to have the Butcher of Torfan background. Otherwise, why bother with the twin scenario? Because we're then just back to them being the same character swapped out. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2016 19:04:28 GMT
By dialogue responses not being identical and treated differently, do you mean what Ryder says or what the person they are talking to says? If the latter then yes I agree since for some scenarios that wouldn't work, like for example flirting with LIs who are only attracted to one sex. If you mean the former then no I disagree because they are the same character in this situation: our character. I think we're just disagreeing on this one to some extent. As I said, Scott and Sara are individual characters and so should have at least some level of different reaction to things. So, let's say BroShepard and FemShepard were siblings instead of the same person. In my mind, I shouldn't be able to allow both of them to have the Butcher of Torfan background. Otherwise, why bother with the twin scenario? Because we're then just back to them being the same character swapped out. This is a really good point. If our character was totally a blank slate, then they could have gone the DA2 route and just had Scott and Sarah be the "twin sibling" character based on whichever one you pick. For example, if you pick a male PC, then you get Sarah as your twin. If you pick a female PC, then you get Scott as your twin. But they didn't do that. They made them two separate characters and you select to play as one of them. You aren't picking to play as a male or female PC. You are picking to play as either Scott or Sarah. And they are both already somewhat set characters. I can see why some people don't love it. It's different than what Bioware has done in the past, so it might be outside of what some people like. I know that if Bioware made a game with a set protagonist without customization options, I'd be annoyed. So I understand why people are annoyed at this. But, personally, I'm intrigued and definitely willing to give it a go before dismissing it. |
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Post by dmc1001 on Dec 31, 2016 19:09:21 GMT
Per my earlier example, had I made an Earthborn, Butcher of Torfan Shepard, I could still play full on Paragon from that point onward. I actually have a Shepard who is full Renegade for ME1-2 but then goes Paragon "after thinking on his actions for 6 months" in ME3. I imagine that whatever background Scott and Sara start with we'll still have plenty of options on how they react. They just won't be identical.
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Post by Two Faces on Dec 31, 2016 19:13:07 GMT
I wonder why there isn't any "Meme and Fun Mass Effect Andromeda thread", so here we go.  |
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Post by jjdxb on Dec 31, 2016 21:47:42 GMT
As I said, I think it's okay for the NPC to be predefined...But as a player I want to act the way I want. Everything else limits the role playing experience in my view. It makes no sense for the NPC twin to be predefined if the PC twin isn't. They don't exist in individual vacuums. For example, douchey violent Scott up to the game start should affect the way Sara treats him, but that can't happen if predefined goody two-shoes Sara treats you're one yourself. |
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 31, 2016 21:57:24 GMT
As I said, I think it's okay for the NPC to be predefined...But as a player I want to act the way I want. Everything else limits the role playing experience in my view. It makes no sense for the NPC twin to be predefined if the PC twin isn't. They don't exist in individual vacuums. For example, douchey violent Scott up to the game start should affect the way Sara treats him, but that can't happen if predefined goody two-shoes Sara treats you're one yourself. By that logic we should have no options at all in the entire game because people can't react differently to those options. Many games have had NPCs who were predefined for the most part with a little wiggle room for how the player acted, for example like the Origins characters in DAO. They were mostly predefined and even had a predefined relationship with the Warden, but had some flexibility to allow the player to be how they wanted. |
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Dec 31, 2016 22:05:54 GMT
By dialogue responses not being identical and treated differently, do you mean what Ryder says or what the person they are talking to says? If the latter then yes I agree since for some scenarios that wouldn't work, like for example flirting with LIs who are only attracted to one sex. If you mean the former then no I disagree because they are the same character in this situation: our character. I think we're just disagreeing on this one to some extent. As I said, Scott and Sara are individual characters and so should have at least some level of different reaction to things. So, let's say BroShepard and FemShepard were siblings instead of the same person. In my mind, I shouldn't be able to allow both of them to have the Butcher of Torfan background. Otherwise, why bother with the twin scenario? Because we're then just back to them being the same character swapped out. Except they aren't individual characters. They are only individual when we are not playing as them. The one we play should not be their NPC self but us, which means they should not have exclusive reactions to things or exclusive anything involving themselves. Why not? More than one person survived the Battle of Torfan. You could even have the Sole Survivor background be that they were the only two survivors. If this is the cost of a sibling scenario, then I hope Bioware never even considers the concept again. At this point, I just hope different PC won't translate into Sara Ryder constantly sexual harrassed Considering what they did with female Shepard, I'm more worried that Sarah Ryder will constantly sexual harass. |
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Post by saberchic on Dec 31, 2016 22:07:41 GMT
I figure the twin will be like Bethany or Carver but perhaps a bit less...shoehorned into a particular personality (if that makes sense).
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Post by London on Dec 31, 2016 22:32:31 GMT
Just using my first post to celebrate how hot Scott turned out. Thanks for sharing the model.
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Post by hammerstorm on Dec 31, 2016 23:32:04 GMT
Just using my first post to celebrate how hot Scott turned out. Thanks for sharing the model. Welcome to BSN. And there is worse way to use the FIRST POST. Hope you are enjoying your visit. (It will be forever  ) |
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Post by jjdxb on Jan 1, 2017 1:12:38 GMT
It makes no sense for the NPC twin to be predefined if the PC twin isn't. They don't exist in individual vacuums. For example, douchey violent Scott up to the game start should affect the way Sara treats him, but that can't happen if predefined goody two-shoes Sara treats you're one yourself. By that logic we should have no options at all in the entire game because people can't react differently to those options. Many games have had NPCs who were predefined for the most part with a little wiggle room for how the player acted, for example like the Origins characters in DAO. They were mostly predefined and even had a predefined relationship with the Warden, but had some flexibility to allow the player to be how they wanted. Those Origin characters also for the most part ceased to be of any real importance after the origin story. Jowan isn't a potential PC character, nor is he a critical plot character on the level of what the twin is supposed to be. There's barely any interaction with them past meeting Riordan. Your twin grew up with you. If you were a douche growing up, that must affect them on a personal level. Jowan is frankly irrelevant. Sarah is not. Any roleplayed personality your PC had before the game physically started would alter your siblings personality and attitude towards you at game start, especially if its a twin. The only way to avoid this is to defined just enough of each sibling's history, personality and interactions with each other that those first in-game interactions don't seem silly. Imagine DA2 if Hawke were a blank slate? You could be a total douchebag right from the beginning and Bethany would still think the sun shines out of your arse. Sure, she might decide she hates your attitude, but your character was always a douchebag, that process should have started earlier. You can get away with this if you either don't have strong relationships at the start (Circle mage), or you kill them off (e.g. Human and Dwarf Noble). But we already know the twin isn't going to fade away after the opening chapters. You either have these strong relationships and predefined personalities, or neither. It's fine if you prefer the latter, but mixing the two won't work. |
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 1, 2017 1:18:00 GMT
By that logic we should have no options at all in the entire game because people can't react differently to those options. Many games have had NPCs who were predefined for the most part with a little wiggle room for how the player acted, for example like the Origins characters in DAO. They were mostly predefined and even had a predefined relationship with the Warden, but had some flexibility to allow the player to be how they wanted. Those Origin characters also for the most part ceased to be of any real importance after the origin story. Jowan isn't a potential PC character, nor is he a critical plot character on the level of what the twin is supposed to be. There's barely any interaction with them past meeting Riordan. Your twin grew up with you. If you were a douche growing up, that must affect them on a personal level. Jowan is frankly irrelevant. Sarah is not. Any roleplayed personality your PC had before the game physically started would alter your siblings personality and attitude towards you at game start, especially if its a twin. The only way to avoid this is to defined just enough of each sibling's history, personality and interactions with each other that those first in-game interactions don't seem silly. Imagine DA2 if Hawke were a blank slate? You could be a total douchebag right from the beginning and Bethany would still think the sun shines out of your arse. Sure, she might decide she hates your attitude, but your character was always a douchebag, that process should have started earlier. You can get away with this if you either don't have strong relationships at the start (Circle mage), or you kill them off (e.g. Human and Dwarf Noble). But we already know the twin isn't going to fade away after the opening chapters. You either have these strong relationships and predefined personalities, or neither. It's fine if you prefer the latter, but mixing the two won't work. You only have to interact with your twin once according to Bioware actually, so after that interaction they too cease to be of any real importance thus the comparison stands. Or why not just have it be of a few options? Have it determined by having something like the Psychological Profile that Shepard has in character creation, except instead of being about your defining moment as a soldier it is your relationship with your family. Your sibling's personality will still be the same, just have a different opinion of you. Chances are their opinion will change during the events of the game based on what you do, so it's not like the idea isn't already there. Okay. *imagines Hawke being a blank slate* DA2 just got exponentially better in my imagination. And no, you can have both. Again, their most recent game Inquisition did it. The Inquisitor was a blank slate with no real predefined personality, and yet they could still have strong relationships. |
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Post by lightdrago3 on Jan 1, 2017 2:19:21 GMT
Those Origin characters also for the most part ceased to be of any real importance after the origin story. Jowan isn't a potential PC character, nor is he a critical plot character on the level of what the twin is supposed to be. There's barely any interaction with them past meeting Riordan. Your twin grew up with you. If you were a douche growing up, that must affect them on a personal level. Jowan is frankly irrelevant. Sarah is not. Any roleplayed personality your PC had before the game physically started would alter your siblings personality and attitude towards you at game start, especially if its a twin. The only way to avoid this is to defined just enough of each sibling's history, personality and interactions with each other that those first in-game interactions don't seem silly. Imagine DA2 if Hawke were a blank slate? You could be a total douchebag right from the beginning and Bethany would still think the sun shines out of your arse. Sure, she might decide she hates your attitude, but your character was always a douchebag, that process should have started earlier. You can get away with this if you either don't have strong relationships at the start (Circle mage), or you kill them off (e.g. Human and Dwarf Noble). But we already know the twin isn't going to fade away after the opening chapters. You either have these strong relationships and predefined personalities, or neither. It's fine if you prefer the latter, but mixing the two won't work. You only have to interact with your twin once according to Bioware actually, so after that interaction they too cease to be of any real importance thus the comparison stands. Or why not just have it be of a few options? Have it determined by having something like the Psychological Profile that Shepard has in character creation, except instead of being about your defining moment as a soldier it is your relationship with your family. Your sibling's personality will still be the same, just have a different opinion of you. Chances are their opinion will change during the events of the game based on what you do, so it's not like the idea isn't already there. Okay. *imagines Hawke being a blank slate* DA2 just got exponentially better in my imagination. And no, you can have both. Again, their most recent game Inquisition did it. The Inquisitor was a blank slate with no real predefined personality, and yet they could still have strong relationships. I'm going to have to disagree with you there. If Hawke was a blank slate, they would be a boring character to follow. Unlike my Warden and Inquisitor, Hawke had personality. Not to mention a defined one. The others were just too bland, but Hawke brought character to the table which I loved, and liked the auto dialogue that happened which was consistent with my Hawke's personality. Don't get me wrong, I loved my other protags, but Hawke just had something that put him ahead of the two of them in terms of character. And the other two protagonists aren't that much of a blank slate are they? They still have a defined background. There are things we can't change about them, constricting roleplayability. And some of the auto dialogue for the Inquisitor could contradict with one's characterization. I was playing as a serious and diplomatic Inquisitor, yet in Trespasser he jokingly asked some rhetoric questions, which went against him. That isn't very blank is it? The best "blank slate" character I can think of from an RPG is the Courier from Fallout New Vegas, as all we know about their background, is, well, they work as a courier. Not to mention, we have very little information besides a comment from a Bioware employee. Until we see more information about this feature and delve into it further, shouldn't we wait for all the crying and criticism for later? It may not be as bad as you think it. It could just be a minor tone difference between the two twins. In my opinion, I think it will add a little flavor and character to the twins, which is a good thing to see. But there is an upcoming showcase of Mass Effect: Andromeda on January 4. Perhaps we can form an educated opinion then. |
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