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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Nov 27, 2016 1:28:57 GMT
"Mass Effect 1 is the only story that made sense." "The writers didn't even know what the Reapers were themselves." "Nothing from a writing standpoint was good in either ME2 or ME3" and similar forum-going cliches.
Incidentally all these are from the Community Thread in NeoGAF from yesterday. I know I can bitch and moan about how shit I think the writing is in ME3, but I loathe the generalizations of how because the plot pretty much fails at large in ME2 and ME3 at least as a continuation ppl take it to extremes and discredit anything ME2 or ME3 do well and say "ME1 is perfect". And then, in that same topic people get really defensive when some start pointing out how there are obvious patchwork and stitched-together plot elements in ME1 as well, as if it's blasphemy.
I bring it up because I remember this happening a lot back on the old BioWare forum as well and it really annoyed me how I could never point anything out about ME3 being sucky in my opinion without someone going "But ME2 was teh worst, so..." or "Every game is a reboot after ME1" and before we turn this into a competition to see who can complain the most, let me go back on topic and say I just think it's silly that people are so nostalgic about ME1 to the point that nothing in ME2 or ME3 can compare almost, when they did have really strong moments, world building, even continuity in important places and it's as if that doesn't matter because as a whole it didn't connect in the end.
I just think it's ironic because people don't realize how easy part 1 is to make in most stories. The writers can come up with anything and keep that idea spinning in a coherent fashion for that first story arc, but it's not until part 2 and 3 have to switch things up and focus on different sub-stories, themes or expand the scope a bit that it gets tough and they have to follow up on what was made up in part 1. And ME1 is a story I am sure contradicted its own logic numerous times as they developed it due to cuts but they ended up making it work. According to Dave Gaider any BioWare ever had massive cuts in its core story or content that made writers bang their heads against a wall, and ME1 was no different. The final cut was definitely more coherent than ME2 or ME3, but there are still visible patches in it or leaps in logic or plot pacing, most notably in how the Citadel search for evidence against saren goes or how barebones Therum is. It's really the final crescendo of Ilos and the finale that is ME1's saving grace in terms of its plot, and the notion that ME3 failed because "they hadn't thought up the story" or "they wrote as they went along" is an illegitemate criticsm in my view because if you replaced ME3's ending with a great one, you'd have a damn satisfying plot for the whole trilogy even with the Dark Energy mysteries of ME2 dropped.
The thing is, you can't say a writer has to pen out their stories for their entire stretch of their plan. Look at Breaking Bad (haven't watched it personally, but...) it's such a damn revered show and notably for how good its ending was as well, but guess what, the writers admitted they almost wrote themselves into corners that would break the story 2-3 times along the way because they hadn't planned anything out beyond the overall structure, just like Mass Effect. You can write an excellent 3-part story or a series story starting from part 1 without knowing exactly how part 2 or 3 turns out in advance as a writer. It's simply a matter of writing smart and knowing how to use the restrictions you've created for yourself to your advantage. The Reaper threat in the trilogy was so massive most fans saw it becoming an issue way before ME3, even some were skeptical as they were revealed to be the main villains in ME1 already. But it was all a matter of how the issue would've been handled. The scenario with the Crucible and the war we got in ME3 was just one way it could've been done. There could've been more, but smaller Crucibles. There could've been Conduit-like devices scattered throughout the Milky Way that would sabotage Mass Relay systems to damage Reapers nearby, or anything, really. Beating Reapers were a matter of doing something unconventional and not making it too contrived. You could've done it within those requirements in ME3 or used the plot of ME2 in different ways to satisfy the idea that there was meaning to having three parts in a story that started with ME1.
All in all, I just think the assumption that a story has to be written with an ending planned completely in advance is an illegitimate criticism. Moreover, I think saying that ME2 or ME3 sucks, while kinda fair since ME1 defined our perception of what the series should be, I don't think for a second the final product of ME1 was one that fulfilled the idea BioWare had in their minds when they were making ME1 - it was a game made with an ambitious vision and to some extent fell kinda short in various places, and naturally BioWare wanted to refine things with future games to better fulfill their initial idea. I'm not arguing ME3 is more in line with what ME1 tried to be at all, no, ME3 sucks, but aside from certain Gears of War shitty aspects ME2 certainly was more what they tried to make with ME1, and aesthetically I beileve ME3 was closer as well. I think people's rose-tinted glasses for ME1 are mainly due to the initial fanbase from 2007~ that replayed that game over and over and then felt alienated when ME2 shipped and veered so far off the direction they had gotten adjusted to, which was already a direction BioWare hadn't 100% consciously made to begin with.
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Post by dmc1001 on Nov 27, 2016 4:25:03 GMT
People like to complain. That's all. I love ME3 but admittedly it comes from my desire to have Shepard be able to have Kaidan as a love interest. My main "issue" with ME2 is that there's almost no Kaidan. I don't have a problem with the plot. Sure, I could pick it apart and say "but they could have done this, and this would have been so much better and why didn't they do that" but...well, I could do that with any game or book or movie. None of it was perfect but I think it's collectively the best gaming series I've ever played in my life. It actually affected me on some weird levels. Hell, I read lots of ME fanfic. Never happened with a game before for me.
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Post by amoebae on Jan 10, 2017 16:17:59 GMT
People have different opinions. The best thing to do is smile, shrug, and move on.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2017 17:33:15 GMT
Then why don't you occasionally put in a critical word for ME1 or ME2 or Chris L'Etoile instead of always starting thread and thread after thread by ragging on ME3 or, more specifically, Mac's writing? Just asking?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2017 23:17:54 GMT
People who claim that ME1's script was such solid writing and superior to the scripts of next two games, are wearing nostalgia goggles.
The game even begins with a massive plot hole. Saren, a Spectre with indoctrinated Asari commandos in his service, attacks Eden Prime to access a Prothean beacon that leads to a back door onto the Presidium. He exposes himself as a traitor for piece of Prothean junk he didn't need.
All Sovereign had to do was send his indoctrinated minions, all of whom already had full access to the Presidium, to seize Citadel control from the inside. No backdoor needed.
The plot of ME1 makes zero sense.
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Post by anehforaneh on Jan 10, 2017 23:27:58 GMT
I'm not as quick to rag on the writing of any of the entries, or the authors. I imagine it is pretty difficult coming up with multiple dialog options that both satisfy narratively and aesthetically.
While conversations in all three games could be dull and contrive at times, I was always more interested in the overall story. The more immersive gameplay in ME2/ME3 (compared to the first game) provided a good enough buffer to insulate me from a lacking plot; i.e., the games were still fun.
In fact, while I absolutely loved ME1 back in '07, I kinda dread playing it now because it's so clunky and monotonous. Half the game is micromanaging your weapon/armor mods. The other half is cursing at the idiot that didn't install lateral thrusters on the Mako.
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Post by anehforaneh on Jan 10, 2017 23:32:40 GMT
People who claim that ME1's script was such solid writing and superior to the scripts of next two games, are wearing nostalgia goggles. The game even begins with a massive plot hole. Saren, a Spectre with indoctrinated Asari commandos in his service, attacks Eden Prime to access a Prothean beacon that leads to a back door onto the Presidium. He exposes himself as a traitor for piece of Prothean junk he didn't need. All Sovereign had to do was send his indoctrinated minions, all of whom already had full access to the Presidium, to seize Citadel control from the inside. No backdoor needed. The plot of ME1 makes zero sense. I may be remembering things wrong, but didn't Saren need the information in the beacon(s) to find Ilos so he would know how to undo what the protheans did? Sure, he could have easily gained access to the Council Chamber, but then... what? He didn't have the code to unblock the signal.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jan 10, 2017 23:36:16 GMT
People who claim that ME1's script was such solid writing and superior to the scripts of next two games, are wearing nostalgia goggles. The game even begins with a massive plot hole. Saren, a Spectre with indoctrinated Asari commandos in his service, attacks Eden Prime to access a Prothean beacon that leads to a back door onto the Presidium. He exposes himself as a traitor for piece of Prothean junk he didn't need. All Sovereign had to do was send his indoctrinated minions, all of whom already had full access to the Presidium, to seize Citadel control from the inside. No backdoor needed. The plot of ME1 makes zero sense. I may be remembering things wrong, but didn't Saren need the information in the beacon(s) to find Ilos so he would know how to undo what the protheans did? Sure, he could have easily gained access to the Council Chamber, but then... what? He didn't have the code to unblock the signal. He didn't need any code. All he had to do was keep the arms open long enough for Sovereign to dock and then close them and allow Sovereign to access the relay system and kick start the apocalypse. All that could have been done without the need to attack Eden Prime or spend time searching for the Conduit.
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Post by anehforaneh on Jan 10, 2017 23:46:54 GMT
Hmph. Yeah, that's a pretty big plot hole. I think I like my version better.
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Post by Plague Doctor on Jan 11, 2017 9:32:43 GMT
Well, i like all three games but i do admit that i enjoyed part 1 the most. I dont think its perfect though, the overall tone and feel just appealed to me the most. My biggest criticism with ME3 is just how far removed it is from the original. I mean seriously, can you imagine Kai Leng or Cerberus ninjas in general in ME1? It did have quite a few flaws though, like plotholes both major and minor, almost no Normandy Crew interaction, and some really weird glitches that can actually ruin some moments. Bipolar Tali arguing with herself over whether to save the council or not sure took a lot of drama out of the big final choice for me on my first playthrough.
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Post by disi on Jan 11, 2017 11:33:10 GMT
I think the reason Sovereign didn't go straight for the Citadel is explained by Vigil. It mentions that Reapers are working in seclusion and do things through their minions while they are preparing for the invasion. IIRC Shephard even asks Vigil why they didn't attack the Citadel directly. Instead he prepares for the invasion by letting his minion Saren search for the only weapon that could defeat them. Imagine he fails. All other Reapers are stuck in dark space indefinitely, he had to be very careful. p.s. Sovereign does fail because he got cocky. If he would have stayed in the background and waited another ~100 years, Shephard would be dead. He made this human his personal enemy. I think the real problem is that you have no clue what is happening at the end of ME2. A machine needs organic beings for its creation? I only got the information that reapers are made of organic civilisations at the end of ME3 As a backup plan the Collectors as slaves to the reapers create a new reaper out of humans they harvest colony by colony.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Jan 11, 2017 12:41:59 GMT
Well, i like all three games but i do admit that i enjoyed part 1 the most. I dont think its perfect though, the overall tone and feel just appealed to me the most. My biggest criticism with ME3 is just how far removed it is from the original. I mean seriously, can you imagine Kai Leng or Cerberus ninjas in general in ME1? It did have quite a few flaws though, like plotholes both major and minor, almost no Normandy Crew interaction, and some really weird glitches that can actually ruin some moments. Bipolar Tali arguing with herself over whether to save the council or not sure took a lot of drama out of the big final choice for me on my first playthrough.
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Post by Plague Doctor on Jan 11, 2017 12:52:20 GMT
Well, i like all three games but i do admit that i enjoyed part 1 the most. I dont think its perfect though, the overall tone and feel just appealed to me the most. My biggest criticism with ME3 is just how far removed it is from the original. I mean seriously, can you imagine Kai Leng or Cerberus ninjas in general in ME1? It did have quite a few flaws though, like plotholes both major and minor, almost no Normandy Crew interaction, and some really weird glitches that can actually ruin some moments. Bipolar Tali arguing with herself over whether to save the council or not sure took a lot of drama out of the big final choice for me on my first playthrough. I meant Normandy crew members, not companions. Adams, Pressly and Joker etc.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2017 13:06:51 GMT
I think the reason Sovereign didn't go straight for the Citadel is explained by Vigil. It mentions that Reapers are working in seclusion and do things through their minions while they are preparing for the invasion. IIRC Shephard even asks Vigil why they didn't attack the Citadel directly. Instead he prepares for the invasion by letting his minion Saren search for the only weapon that could defeat them. Imagine he fails. All other Reapers are stuck in dark space indefinitely, he had to be very careful. p.s. Sovereign does fail because he got cocky. If he would have stayed in the background and waited another ~100 years, Shephard would be dead. He made this human his personal enemy. I think the real problem is that you have no clue what is happening at the end of ME2. A machine needs organic beings for its creation? I only got the information that reapers are made of organic civilisations at the end of ME3 As a backup plan the Collectors as slaves to the reapers create a new reaper out of humans they harvest colony by colony. Vigil's explanation for Sovereign not going directly to the Citadel is really, really lame in Vigil basically just says that by attacking the Citadel, Sovereign would find himself as a solitary Reaper up against every fleet in the galaxy alone. The reality though is that, in the end of ME1, Sovereign attacks the Citadel alone. The only additional help he has is a single henchman who uses an alleged backdoor to drop him into the middle of a public plaza on the Citadel... a place where, prior to exposing himself, Saren could have gotten to any day of the week with any number of his asari commandos supporting him under cover. From the outset, Sovereign and Saren already know that the signal he sent to the keepers to open the Relay for the Reapers didn't work; the Reapers built the Citadel, so Sovereign must also know exactly where that Relay needs to be activated from. In Saren (as a Spectre), he has an individual who can get into Citadel Tower, Council Chambers, and even Citadel Control unquestioned; yet, what does he do first? Inexplicably, Saren attacks a colony to gain information he doesn't really need. The Protheans needed the backdoor to get onto the Citadel, because the Reapers already controlled the Citadel in that cycle. Vigil even says that the Reapers swept in and took the Citadel first. Saren does not need a backdoor to get onto the Citadel to start the invasion... he needed to keep his Spectre access intact. He needed to keep his cover. By attacking Eden Prime, he blew his cover completely for no good purpose. ME1 even goes so far as to prove to the player that a spectre can go anywhere on the Citadel and do about anything while there without C-Sec raising an eyebrow. Shepard can even walk into Citadel Control fully armed, with a fully armed squad, and plant a bug for Emily Wong (a place where she allegedly can't go). The only information Vigil really gives Saren in the end is "the Protheans did it." Is this knowledge critical for Saren to know? Not really. The rest of Vigil's info dump to Shepard is about how the Reapers invaded the Protheans. That is, it's about stuff Sovereign certainly already knows (and therefore Saren can easily also know) without having to talk to Vigil about it. Another contradiction... there is no report of a Reaper having to be in the vicinity of the Citadel when that signal is sent to the other Reapers. The keepers normally do the job and Vigil indicates that there was no warning when the whole Reaper fleet attacked the Citadel... no appearance of a solitary Reaper having to plant itself on the Citadel Tower to send the signal out. So, if the keepers normally do the job alone; why couldn't Sovereign at least try first just sending in Saren covertly with whatever "codes" were needed to send the signal out? Why Sovereign just didn't send Saren to the Citadel to covertly try to open the Relay in the first place is never explained in the plot of ME1... and it creates the basic foundation for "plot failure" that the Trilogy is noted for time and again. It's really difficult to rescue a series ending from a bad beginning. ME3's ending failed (in large measure) BECAUSE ME1's plot fails.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Jan 11, 2017 13:59:08 GMT
I meant Normandy crew members, not companions. Adams, Pressly and Joker etc. Because Chalkwas and Adams have sooo much interaction in ME3 /s Joker has about as much in ME3 as in ME2 and then there's the ambient banter sometimes.
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Post by Plague Doctor on Jan 11, 2017 14:22:34 GMT
I meant Normandy crew members, not companions. Adams, Pressly and Joker etc. Because Chalkwas and Adams have sooo much interaction in ME3 /s Joker has about as much in ME3 as in ME2 and then there's the ambient banter sometimes. Well lets agree to disagree then. I never felt like i got to know the Normandy crew in ME1. In both sequels i did. In fact i didnt really care about Joker in ME1 since he was just some guy who flew my ship, at least to me. ME2 made me love him. In ME2 you also have Kelly, Rupert, Ken and Gabby. All of which i liked. In ME3 you get Cortez and Traynor, both of which are great as well. All im saying is had the Collectors kidnapped the crew in ME1 i wouldnt have stopped everything i was doing to rescue them as fast as possible.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2017 14:25:38 GMT
I meant Normandy crew members, not companions. Adams, Pressly and Joker etc. Because Chalkwas and Adams have sooo much interaction in ME3 /s Joker has about as much in ME3 as in ME2 and then there's the ambient banter sometimes. Squad mate interaction is actually quite limited in ME1. Unless an LI, we have: 1 recruitment conversation, 1"welcome aboard" conversation, 1 info dump about their species, 1 "can you do this little job for me" conversation, 1 "thank you" conversation, and then an ongoing repeat of some phrase that basically tells you there are no more conversations to be had. Wrex has a little extra if you bother to save him on Virmire. Pressly, Adams, and Chakwas all have 1 conversation and then basically 1 extra line that will repeat throughout the entire game. In ME2, the pattern is about the same. Legion has some extra conversation, but the positioning of his recruitment means that, in many playthroughs, the player will not trigger these anyways. There is a couple of conversations with Chakwas, 3 or 4 with Donnelly and Daniels and with Kelly (who is, after all, a LI; whereas Pressly was not). The big difference was the addition of the banter that you can listen in on. However, that same "eavesdropping aspect is what people mercilessly criticize ME3 for doing. In ME3, you still have 3 or 4 interactive conversations with Chakwas and with Adams, you have a few more with Samantha, and you can also have somewhat interactive moments with Copithorne (which he's arguing with Garrus and Javik and when he arguing with Allers). With the Citadel DLC, the number of interactive conversations you have available actually favors ME3 by quite a bit. What is different is the pseudo-choices. Dialogue wheel options put there just to cause the player to think there making a choice. Selections that often make no difference in what Shepard actually utters or that just make the player have to select one after another to hear a long info dump of "investigate" conversations. As you have already said, you prefer making these falst selections. I prefer that the game not get bogged down with having to wait for me to click a button just for the saking of clicking the button. I like the NPC to give me the whole info dump in one blurb (that I can skip entirely with the press of one button) rather than having to walk through an entire "investigate" menu with several clicks if I want to hear the whole thing and I don't like thinking I'm selecting a "different" choice when the PC winds up just saying the same thing for both.
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Post by themikefest on Jan 11, 2017 14:27:46 GMT
Well lets agree to disagree then. I never felt like i got to know the Normandy crew in ME1. In both sequels i did. In fact i didnt really care about Joker in ME1 since he was just some guy who flew my ship, at least to me. ME2 made me love him. In ME2 you also have Kelly, Rupert, Ken and Gabby. All of which i liked. In ME3 you get Cortez and Traynor, both of which are great as well. All im saying is had the Collectors kidnapped the crew in ME1 i wouldnt have stopped everything i was doing to rescue them as fast as possible. I like to have more interaction with the crewmembers. I find them more interesting than most of the squadmates. They are just as important as squadmates. I'm one of the few that has been posting in the Andromeda section that I like for more interaction with the crew than what was in the trilogy
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Post by disi on Jan 11, 2017 14:35:33 GMT
The only information Vigil really gives Saren in the end is "the Protheans did it." Is this knowledge critical for Saren to know? Not really. The rest of Vigil's info dump to Shepard is about how the Reapers invaded the Protheans. That is, it's about stuff Sovereign certainly already knows (and therefore Saren can easily also know) without having to talk to Vigil about it. Why Sovereign just didn't send Saren to the Citadel to covertly try to open the Relay in the first place is never explained in the plot of ME1... and it creates the basic foundation for "plot failure" that the Trilogy is noted for time and again. It's really difficult to rescue a series ending from a bad beginning. ME3's ending failed BECAUSE ME1's plot fails. Vigil also says "Reapers move in mysterious ways", you cannot understand why they do things. This forbids any further discussion. Sovereign does become very personal on Virmire with Shephard giving his "we are infinite" speech. I could even imagine he went rogue and attacked due to the fact that he hated him, at least this is what I would like to believe. Shephard being the guy who even pisses off godlike beings. But the plot in me2 is very strange, I would not have Shephard killed in the first place and breaking romances established in me1 as a consequence of working for a terrorist organisation you fought during the entire game of me1. And me3, how did the Reapers get out of dark space to attack earth? I couldn't find an answer for that. Internet says they weren't trapped and I cannot point the text but always had the impression they were. One is left behind to prepare for the next cycle. I don't claim to be an expert, never read any comic or books and only play it a second time at the moment.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2017 14:38:06 GMT
Meh, different strokes for different folks.
Personally, for those who herald the writing of ME1 as vastly superior to that of ME2 and ME3 arguably are letting nostalgia blur over some of the more lesser elements of the writing in ME1.
Like the supposedly great dialogue from the characters. ME2 and ME3 had better character dialogue and interaction, sorry most of ME1 was plot dump and info spamming. We needed it, cause world building and lore establishment were what ME1 had to start with to get the immersion into the universe rolling. But I've seen it handled much better than the stiff walking codex entries that was talking with the squad mates in ME1.
I think it wasn't just writing that worked in ME1's favour in some areas though. I think other elements excelled to create quality scenes and missions in the game. Noveria and Virmire for example were well written, designed and executed missions, fairly epic in scale and length compared to the shorter, more polished designed levels of ME2. But I don't think any level in ME2 comes really close to the quality of Noveria and Virmire, possibly because of the length. I'm including the Suicide Mission here, which I think at this point has become overrated. ME2 had great missions don't get me wrong, but I still think Noveria and Virmire are highlights of when every area of the development and creation excelled.
But no matter how good individual missions are, overall the main narratives of all three games aren't particularly strong or coherent. But I suppose for the success of these games they didn't need to be.
There's no such thing as an original story anymore anyways so.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2017 14:39:29 GMT
Well lets agree to disagree then. I never felt like i got to know the Normandy crew in ME1. In both sequels i did. In fact i didnt really care about Joker in ME1 since he was just some guy who flew my ship, at least to me. ME2 made me love him. In ME2 you also have Kelly, Rupert, Ken and Gabby. All of which i liked. In ME3 you get Cortez and Traynor, both of which are great as well. All im saying is had the Collectors kidnapped the crew in ME1 i wouldnt have stopped everything i was doing to rescue them as fast as possible. I like to have more interaction with the crewmembers. I find them more interesting than most of the squadmates. They are just as important as squadmates. I'm one of the few that has been posting in the Andromeda section that I like for more interaction with the crew than what was in the trilogy I agree... more interaction (and interactions that actually matter) would be nice with everyone... crew, people in the hubs, squad, superiors, and even enemies. More is better. Still, it is a bit of a fallacy to say that ME3 offered less than ME1 overall... and it is actually unnecessary for people to dis ME3 to make the request for more interactive conversations in ME:A.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2017 14:40:54 GMT
The only information Vigil really gives Saren in the end is "the Protheans did it." Is this knowledge critical for Saren to know? Not really. The rest of Vigil's info dump to Shepard is about how the Reapers invaded the Protheans. That is, it's about stuff Sovereign certainly already knows (and therefore Saren can easily also know) without having to talk to Vigil about it. Why Sovereign just didn't send Saren to the Citadel to covertly try to open the Relay in the first place is never explained in the plot of ME1... and it creates the basic foundation for "plot failure" that the Trilogy is noted for time and again. It's really difficult to rescue a series ending from a bad beginning. ME3's ending failed BECAUSE ME1's plot fails. Vigil also says "Reapers move in mysterious ways", you cannot understand why they do things. This forbids any further discussion.
Sovereign does become very personal on Virmire with Shephard giving his "we are infinite" speech. I could even imagine he went rogue and attacked due to the fact that he hated him, at least this is what I would like to believe. Shephard being the guy who even pisses off godlike beings. But the plot in me2 is very strange, I would not have Shephard killed in the first place and breaking romances established in me1 as a consequence of working for a terrorist organisation you fought during the entire game of me1. And me3, how did the Reapers get out of dark space to attack earth? I couldn't find an answer for that. Internet says they weren't trapped and I cannot point the text but always had the impression they were. One is left behind to prepare for the next cycle. I don't claim to be an expert, never read any comic or books and only play it a second time at the moment. ... and that's a cop out that only contributes to why ME1's plot fails so badly. It's not an explanation that contributes anything towards making the plot better. We agree that ME2's plot "is strange." As an individual game, it doesn't undermine it's own plot at the beginning in the same way that ME1 does; but it also doesn't contribute to improving on ME1's plot. It was, just as much as ME:A is, an attempt to just avoid the plot problems ME1 had already established. The did ultimately try to somewhat connect the two with the Arrival DLC... but that also really fails. The premise in ME1 is that the main Citadel relay to dark space needs to be activated from the Citadel for the Reapers to enter. With Arrival, the Alpha relay substitutes for that Citadel Relay... but guess what, Normandy is clearly shown leaving through that very relay moments before it is destroyed. The Codex in ME1 clearly states that Primary Relays (the ones that enable travel long distances of several thousand LY) only work in pairs (one point to one other point); whereas, secondary relays are networked but can only allow travel a few hundred LY. Yet, the entire 3 games continually expose us to Primary Relays that connect to more than one other destination. If the Alpha relay connects to dark space, then Normandy should not be entering and leaving the system through it since Normandy clearly is not coming and going through dark space.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jan 11, 2017 15:54:52 GMT
All Sovereign had to do was send his indoctrinated minions, all of whom already had full access to the Presidium, to seize Citadel control from the inside. No backdoor needed. And then what? Hold it for a couple of hours while the Council and all of C-Sec wonder why Saren's holding down the doors open button while a giant unidentified ship approaches? The reality though is that, in the end of ME1, Sovereign attacks the Citadel alone. The only additional help he has is a single henchman who uses an alleged backdoor to drop him into the middle of a public plaza on the Citadel... a place where, prior to exposing himself, Saren could have gotten to any day of the week with any number of his asari commandos supporting him under cover. Aren't you forgetting the giant fleet of geth at his back, and the geth troops that went with him through the Conduit? Benezia has a few followers sure, but she doesn't have a whole damn army and that's more or less what you'd need to actually hold the tower controls, once you got them. We've been over this and over this. By attacking Eden Prime, he blew his cover completely for no good purpose. Yes, by attacking, as opposed to covertly securing it. Here we agree. But again, then there'd be no game. We can allow one goof, typically. Another contradiction... there is no report of a Reaper having to be in the vicinity of the Citadel when that signal is sent to the other Reapers. The keepers normally do the job and Vigil indicates that there was no warning when the whole Reaper fleet attacked the Citadel... no appearance of a solitary Reaper having to plant itself on the Citadel Tower to send the signal out. So, if the keepers normally do the job alone; why couldn't Sovereign at least try first just sending in Saren covertly with whatever "codes" were needed to send the signal out? Why Sovereign just didn't send Saren to the Citadel to covertly try to open the Relay in the first place is never explained in the plot of ME1... and it creates the basic foundation for "plot failure" that the Trilogy is noted for time and again. It's really difficult to rescue a series ending from a bad beginning. ME3's ending failed (in large measure) BECAUSE ME1's plot fails. Is there any indication the "dark relay" controls are out in the open as opposed to the sealed off hidden areas (i.e. keeper tunnels) we know the Citadel has? On the contrary it's more logical said controls are precisely in those out of reach areas. Areas Saren wouldn't be able to access. Areas Sovereign itself might not know how to reach it from a tiny meatbag's perspective. Remember the keepers put up walls autonomously and the structure of the Citadel can shift. Knowing where you interface doesn't mean knowing how to guide a tiny pawn there though obstacles you never even think about.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2017 16:08:55 GMT
All Sovereign had to do was send his indoctrinated minions, all of whom already had full access to the Presidium, to seize Citadel control from the inside. No backdoor needed. And then what? Hold it for a couple of hours while the Council and all of C-Sec wonder why Saren's holding down the doors open button while a giant unidentified ship approaches? The reality though is that, in the end of ME1, Sovereign attacks the Citadel alone. The only additional help he has is a single henchman who uses an alleged backdoor to drop him into the middle of a public plaza on the Citadel... a place where, prior to exposing himself, Saren could have gotten to any day of the week with any number of his asari commandos supporting him under cover. Aren't you forgetting the giant fleet of geth at his back, and the geth troops that went with him through the Conduit? Benezia has a few followers sure, but she doesn't have a whole damn army and that's more or less what you'd need to actually hold the tower controls, once you got them. We've been over this and over this. By attacking Eden Prime, he blew his cover completely for no good purpose. Yes, by attacking, as opposed to covertly securing it. Here we agree. But again, then there'd be no game. We can allow one goof, typically. Another contradiction... there is no report of a Reaper having to be in the vicinity of the Citadel when that signal is sent to the other Reapers. The keepers normally do the job and Vigil indicates that there was no warning when the whole Reaper fleet attacked the Citadel... no appearance of a solitary Reaper having to plant itself on the Citadel Tower to send the signal out. So, if the keepers normally do the job alone; why couldn't Sovereign at least try first just sending in Saren covertly with whatever "codes" were needed to send the signal out? Why Sovereign just didn't send Saren to the Citadel to covertly try to open the Relay in the first place is never explained in the plot of ME1... and it creates the basic foundation for "plot failure" that the Trilogy is noted for time and again. It's really difficult to rescue a series ending from a bad beginning. ME3's ending failed (in large measure) BECAUSE ME1's plot fails. Is there any indication the "dark relay" controls are out in the open as opposed to the sealed off hidden areas (i.e. keeper tunnels) we know the Citadel has? On the contrary it's more logical said controls are precisely in those out of reach areas. Areas Saren wouldn't be able to access. Areas Sovereign itself might not know how to reach it from a tiny meatbag's perspective. Remember the keepers put up walls autonomously and the structure of the Citadel can shift. Knowing where you interface doesn't mean knowing how to guide a tiny pawn there though obstacles you never even think about. 1) Saren not taking all of his geth troops through the conduit just fortifies the point that they were not needed at all to access and overtake the control aspects of the Citadel. As you said, we agree on the covert action and that there would be no game otherwise... which also just fortifies that it is a poorly conceived plot for a game to start with. Point 3, we do know that Sovereign's physical presence at the Citadel was not needed to start those invasions, so, even if they are in a keeper tunnel, Sovereign would have been much better off sending someone who could get at least close to that location covertly... as opposed to his having to stroll in through the open arms, etc. I am forgiving an error or two throughout the whole series - in that I'm one here who likes the whole series, including the ME3 endings. What I have difficulty "forgiving" are people who continually want to solely blame the endings for the problems with the plot in the game and continually put ME1 and their authors up on a pedestal. ME1's plot IS the foundation for ME3's plot and endings... and without a good foundation, ME3 really had very little sound plot on which to base an ending to start with. The purpose of a first instalment in a Trilogy is to set up the finale. ME1 failed to do that.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jan 11, 2017 16:10:54 GMT
Vigil also says "Reapers move in mysterious ways", you cannot understand why they do things. This forbids any further discussion.
Sovereign does become very personal on Virmire with Shephard giving his "we are infinite" speech. I could even imagine he went rogue and attacked due to the fact that he hated him, at least this is what I would like to believe. Shephard being the guy who even pisses off godlike beings. But the plot in me2 is very strange, I would not have Shephard killed in the first place and breaking romances established in me1 as a consequence of working for a terrorist organisation you fought during the entire game of me1. And me3, how did the Reapers get out of dark space to attack earth? I couldn't find an answer for that. Internet says they weren't trapped and I cannot point the text but always had the impression they were. One is left behind to prepare for the next cycle. I don't claim to be an expert, never read any comic or books and only play it a second time at the moment. ... and that's a cop out that only contributes to why ME1's plot fails so badly. It's not an explanation that contributes anything towards making the plot better. We agree that ME2's plot "is strange." As an individual game, it doesn't undermine it's own plot at the beginning in the same way that ME1 does; but it also doesn't contribute to improving on ME1's plot. It was, just as much as ME:A is, an attempt to just avoid the plot problems ME1 had already established. The did ultimately try to somewhat connect the two with the Arrival DLC... but that also really fails. The premise in ME1 is that the main Citadel relay to dark space needs to be activated from the Citadel for the Reapers to enter. With Arrival, the Alpha relay substitutes for that Citadel Relay... but guess what, Normandy is clearly shown leaving through that very relay moments before it is destroyed. The Codex in ME1 clearly states that Primary Relays (the ones that enable travel long distances of several thousand LY) only work in pairs (one point to one other point); whereas, secondary relays are networked but can only allow travel a few hundred LY. Yet, the entire 3 games continually expose us to Primary Relays that connect to more than one other destination. If the Alpha relay connects to dark space, then Normandy should not be entering and leaving the system through it since Normandy clearly is not coming and going through dark space. What Primary Relays connect to multiple Primary Relays? Also Alpha Relay doesn't really connect to Dark space. It is just the closes Relay to the entry point from Dark space the Reapers can take. With the effect of being able to line up directly with Citadel.
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