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Post by dmc1001 on May 16, 2018 2:36:51 GMT
Hmm...could mean the kid is real and the Starbrat just co-opted his image to play on Shepard's guilt. Precisely! I never thought the kid was anything other than a kid.t That's also what I always thought. Just a little more evidence that the Catalyst is a liar and deceiver. You can't trust anything it wants.
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Post by Phantom on May 16, 2018 12:40:32 GMT
Precisely! I never thought the kid was anything other than a kid.t That's also what I always thought. Just a little more evidence that the Catalyst is a liar and deceiver. You can't trust anything it wants. Well i am in that group that believes that Catalyst is an untrustworthy liar. i will not be surprised that others will say that we are not looking at the big picture and that it is telling the truth and it is purely logical and we should trust it. Anyone trust the Catalyst might be indoctrinated. Thus eligible for test experiments within a Cerberus Testing labs.
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Post by dmc1001 on May 16, 2018 13:13:59 GMT
That's also what I always thought. Just a little more evidence that the Catalyst is a liar and deceiver. You can't trust anything it wants. Well i am in that group that believes that Catalyst is an untrustworthy liar. i will not be surprised that others will say that we are not looking at the big picture and that it is telling the truth and it is purely logical and we should trust it. Anyone trust the Catalyst might be indoctrinated. Thus eligible for test experiments within a Cerberus Testing labs. Exactly. Who trusted the Reapers that, in some fashion, they didn't really want to destroy us? Saren. Dr. Kenson (and her team). TIM. Those people were all indoctrinated. What they came to believe also can't be trusted. Since the Catalyst is ultimately behind it all, it can't be trusted.
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Post by themikefest on May 16, 2018 13:19:21 GMT
The catalyst only cares about one thing, survival. That's why it butters up the green. The green works in its favor.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2018 14:42:39 GMT
Precisely! I never thought the kid was anything other than a kid.t That's also what I always thought. Just a little more evidence that the Catalyst is a liar and deceiver. You can't trust anything it wants. Unless, it's the Catalyst who doesn't exist at all. An image conjured up by Shepard in his/her own mind to represent an internal debate about the various options available to him/her. Shepard is completely alone and mortally wounded and faced with a decision that will impact everyone in the galaxy. It seems logical to me that he/she would conjure up an image from the past in order to sort out the various options available within his/her own mind.
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Post by dmc1001 on May 16, 2018 15:13:17 GMT
That's also what I always thought. Just a little more evidence that the Catalyst is a liar and deceiver. You can't trust anything it wants. Unless, it's the Catalyst who doesn't exist at all. An image conjured up by Shepard in his/her own mind to represent an internal debate about the various options available to him/her. Shepard is completely alone and mortally wounded and faced with a decision that will impact everyone in the galaxy. It seems logical to me that he/she would conjure up an image from the past in order to sort out the various options available within his/her own mind. I suppose, but then that means the Leviathan DLC should just be tossed out the window as a hallucination on Shepard's part. The Catalyst is the Intelligence created by the Leviathan. masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Catalyst
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Post by themikefest on May 16, 2018 15:23:35 GMT
I suppose, but then that means the Leviathan DLC should just be tossed out the window as a hallucination on Shepard's part. The Catalyst is the Intelligence created by the Leviathan. masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Catalyst[/I agree since Shepard is never given the option to ask if it knows what the catalyst is.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2018 15:24:28 GMT
Unless, it's the Catalyst who doesn't exist at all. An image conjured up by Shepard in his/her own mind to represent an internal debate about the various options available to him/her. Shepard is completely alone and mortally wounded and faced with a decision that will impact everyone in the galaxy. It seems logical to me that he/she would conjure up an image from the past in order to sort out the various options available within his/her own mind. I suppose, but then that means the Leviathan DLC should just be tossed out the window as a hallucination on Shepard's part. The Catalyst is the Intelligence created by the Leviathan. masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/CatalystWhy? Just because the Leviathan says there's a Catalyst AI controlling the Reapers, doesn't mean that Shepard actually has to meet it or talk with it in order to be faced with the decision to operate the Crucible. The conversation with Leviathan plants the idea in his/her head that there should be an AI involved, but Leviathan doesn't specifically tell Shepard that it resides on the Citadel or that he/she should be able to converse with it directly. The embodiment of what the Catalyst looks like and might say if he/she were conversing with it could still be something Shepard is conjuring in his/her own mind in an effort to bring the pieces of the puzzle together on his/her own in order to make such a weighty decision alone... without help... cut off for the first time from anyone who can give him/her an order or guidance.
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Post by dmc1001 on May 16, 2018 15:31:57 GMT
Why? Just because the Leviathan says there's a Catalyst AI controlling the Reapers, doesn't mean that Shepard actually has to meet it or talk with it in order to be faced with the decision to operate the Crucible. The conversation with Leviathan plants the idea in his/her head that there should be an AI involved, but Leviathan doesn't specifically tell Shepard that it resides on the Citadel or that he/she should be able to converse with it directly. The embodiment of what the Catalyst looks like and might say if he/she were conversing with it could still be something Shepard is conjuring in his/her own mind in an effort to bring the pieces of the puzzle together on his/her own in order to make such a weighty decision alone... without help... cut off for the first time from anyone who can give him/her an order or guidance. Sounds more like a case for IT. I mean, that's more or less one of their claims that the Catalyst was all in Shepard's mind.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2018 15:36:11 GMT
Why? Just because the Leviathan says there's a Catalyst AI controlling the Reapers, doesn't mean that Shepard actually has to meet it or talk with it in order to be faced with the decision to operate the Crucible. The conversation with Leviathan plants the idea in his/her head that there should be an AI involved, but Leviathan doesn't specifically tell Shepard that it resides on the Citadel or that he/she should be able to converse with it directly. The embodiment of what the Catalyst looks like and might say if he/she were conversing with it could still be something Shepard is conjuring in his/her own mind in an effort to bring the pieces of the puzzle together on his/her own in order to make such a weighty decision alone... without help... cut off for the first time from anyone who can give him/her an order or guidance. Sounds more like a case for IT. I mean, that's more or less one of their claims that the Catalyst was all in Shepard's mind. Not all all a case for IT. Dying people review their lives and their options. That's common knowledge. Many even hallucinate in those last moments. Absolutley no indoctrination required.
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Post by themikefest on May 16, 2018 15:37:07 GMT
Leviathan never mentions catalyst. It says intelligence. Does Leviathan know that the catalyst is part of the Citadel? Don't know because Bioware decided that it wasn't necessary to ask if it knew what the catalyst is.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2018 15:49:44 GMT
Leviathan never mentions catalyst. It says intelligence. Does Leviathan know that the catalyst is part of the Citadel? Don't know because Bioware decided that it wasn't necessary to ask if it knew what the catalyst is. Even more reason why Leviathan doesn't need to be thrown out as a hallucination even if the Catalyst is only a representation of that AI brought forth by Shepard himself/herself in those last moments in order to make a terribly weighty decision. That decision perhaps even recognizing a failure to obtain all the information needed at the time when the question could have been asked (resulting in a regret). To me, it all falls in line with the theme of Ulysses (Ashley's poem). A person who is nearing death reviewing their life and deciding within themselves how to go on. "Death closes all, but something 'ere the end, some work of noble note may yet be done."
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Post by dmc1001 on May 16, 2018 16:32:54 GMT
To me, it all falls in line with the theme of Ulysses (Ashley's poem). A person who is nearing death reviewing their life and deciding within themselves how to go on. "Death closes all, but something 'ere the end, some work of noble note may yet be done." If it's just hallucinations how does Shepard know what choices are going to lead to what resolutions? I have a hard time believing there are buttons saying "Destroy", "Control", and "Synthesis". Even if they were there, how would Shepard know what they did? It's seems clear Shepard knew Synthesis would lead to death, Control would lead to being a Reaper and Destroy would end the Reapers. Reviewing one's life just doesn't work here. Too much of a stretch.
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Post by Phantom on May 16, 2018 16:42:27 GMT
this is just me, grandpa in the stargazer should be taken into consideration. that detail did change over time.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2018 16:47:09 GMT
To me, it all falls in line with the theme of Ulysses (Ashley's poem). A person who is nearing death reviewing their life and deciding within themselves how to go on. "Death closes all, but something 'ere the end, some work of noble note may yet be done." If it's just hallucinations how does Shepard know what choices are going to lead to what resolutions? I have a hard time believing there are buttons saying "Destroy", "Control", and "Synthesis". Even if they were there, how would Shepard know what they did? It's seems clear Shepard knew Synthesis would lead to death, Control would lead to being a Reaper and Destroy would end the Reapers. Reviewing one's life just doesn't work here. Too much of a stretch. There aren't buttons marked "Destroy," "Control" and "Synthesis" though. There never were... the Crucible thing was built to either fire or not fire. The reasoning is not a stretch since destroy is shown by Shepard continuing to fight, fire his gun at something... following Anderson. "Control" is represented by following TIM, and Synthesis is represented by throwing down the gun and running towards his/her own path, which happens to be down the center between the other two choices. It can all be said to be Shepard sorting out what he/she believes in (which was the game journey we were always on) and Shepard never really getting to do anything that impacts the galaxy. If the Crucible is fired, it is because Hackett figures out a way to fire it remotely. This is why I like the original ending better... because we weren't given the various post-ending visions. Shepard dies or completely loses consciousness never knowing what actually happened with the galaxy. Even i the last breath scenario where Shepard could live and eventually find out what happens, we were not told what happened (so then Bioware could have continued the story however they saw fit). The EC ruined that. In giving comfort to some of the fans who seemed to need to be spoon fed an ending that justified their choices, it sacrificed the ability for Bioware to just create a post-war galaxy in whatever form they saw fit.
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Post by dmc1001 on May 16, 2018 17:10:43 GMT
This is why I like the original ending better... because we weren't given the various post-ending visions. Shepard dies or completely loses consciousness never knowing what actually happened with the galaxy. Even i the last breath scenario where Shepard could live and eventually find out what happens, we were not told what happened (so then Bioware could have continued the story however they saw fit). The EC ruined that. In giving comfort to some of the fans who seemed to need to be spoon fed an ending that justified their choices, it sacrificed the ability for Bioware to just create a post-war galaxy in whatever form they saw fit. I never saw the original version so I can't speak to it. What I can do is work with what we got. Hallucinations or not, there's NO WAY Shepard could have had a conversation with himself/herself that leads to Synthesis. No way.
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Post by Phantom on May 16, 2018 17:13:26 GMT
This is why I like the original ending better... because we weren't given the various post-ending visions. Shepard dies or completely loses consciousness never knowing what actually happened with the galaxy. Even i the last breath scenario where Shepard could live and eventually find out what happens, we were not told what happened (so then Bioware could have continued the story however they saw fit). The EC ruined that. In giving comfort to some of the fans who seemed to need to be spoon fed an ending that justified their choices, it sacrificed the ability for Bioware to just create a post-war galaxy in whatever form they saw fit. I never saw the original version so I can't speak to it. What I can do is work with what we got. Hallucinations or not, there's NO WAY Shepard could have had a conversation with himself/herself that leads to Synthesis. No way. well even if Shepard did, I do think many versions of Shepard will think it is a bad idea.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2018 17:28:06 GMT
I never saw the original version so I can't speak to it. What I can do is work with what we got. Hallucinations or not, there's NO WAY Shepard could have had a conversation with himself/herself that leads to Synthesis. No way. well even if Shepard did, I do think many versions of Shepard will think it is a bad idea. There is nothing about what I said that precludes any Shepard from thinking synthesis is a bad idea. All I'm saying is that the format of Shepard's political or rather emotional leanings on the matter being either to the right, to the left or center is not a stretch at all. The societal standard for a "making a peace" between two disparate sides is commonly seen as being centrist. Neither is the imagery of someone ascending that far out there when it comes to representations of death. In the original, there was even a beam of light associated with it. All very common Western religious imagery when talking about the Final Judgment at the Pearly Gates. The game itself is riddled with it.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2018 18:02:43 GMT
This is why I like the original ending better... because we weren't given the various post-ending visions. Shepard dies or completely loses consciousness never knowing what actually happened with the galaxy. Even i the last breath scenario where Shepard could live and eventually find out what happens, we were not told what happened (so then Bioware could have continued the story however they saw fit). The EC ruined that. In giving comfort to some of the fans who seemed to need to be spoon fed an ending that justified their choices, it sacrificed the ability for Bioware to just create a post-war galaxy in whatever form they saw fit. I never saw the original version so I can't speak to it. What I can do is work with what we got. Hallucinations or not, there's NO WAY Shepard could have had a conversation with himself/herself that leads to Synthesis. No way. I'd actually recommend you uninstall the EC temporarily and play through once using just the original ones to see if that changes your perceptions at all. Keep in mind that I'm not trying to convince you that the synthesis ending is a good one or that your individual Shepard would have chosen it. However, in the context of a dying person weighing both the pros and cons of a situation, could your Shepard have recalled such imagery from the information he/she had discovered and experienced over the course of the three games... a dying person who knows that he/she will never actually be able to make the choice itself... they still don't really know what the Crucible will do even if Hackett figures out how to get it to fire.
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Post by themikefest on May 16, 2018 18:44:21 GMT
Why not create a thread to discuss it further?
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2018 19:20:14 GMT
Why not create a thread to discuss it further? I don't think I have any more to say on it actually that hasn't already been said in lots of other earlier threads. I do consider the poetry themes intertwined with the story to be a significant "little thing" that shows quite a bit of attention to detail on Bioware's part. As does the "ascension" imagery present in the ending (including the ray of light that was subsequently removed by the EC).
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Post by themikefest on May 16, 2018 20:17:28 GMT
What ray of light? It only happens twice. Just before Harbingers beam of doom its Shepard and when Shepard is passed out on the platform as its going up.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2018 21:26:46 GMT
What ray of light? It only happens twice. Just before Harbingers beam of doom its Shepard and when Shepard is passed out on the platform as its going up. I was thinking about the one when Shepard is passed out on the platform as it is "ascending." Is it still in there after the EC? I'll have to fire up a ME3 ending file to refresh my memory, but I though the EC removed it.
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Post by themikefest on May 16, 2018 21:37:05 GMT
What ray of light? It only happens twice. Just before Harbingers beam of doom its Shepard and when Shepard is passed out on the platform as its going up. I was thinking about the one when Shepard is passed out on the platform as it is "ascending." Is it still in there after the EC? I'll have to fire up a ME3 ending file to refresh my memory, but I though the EC removed it. It's there
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Post by dmc1001 on May 17, 2018 5:27:24 GMT
I'd actually recommend you uninstall the EC temporarily and play through once using just the original ones to see if that changes your perceptions at all. Keep in mind that I'm not trying to convince you that the synthesis ending is a good one or that your individual Shepard would have chosen it. However, in the context of a dying person weighing both the pros and cons of a situation, could your Shepard have recalled such imagery from the information he/she had discovered and experienced over the course of the three games... a dying person who knows that he/she will never actually be able to make the choice itself... they still don't really know what the Crucible will do even if Hackett figures out how to get it to fire. I sort of get it. It's ultimately up to each player to decide for themselves what is true. Hence, a certain person that sometimes posts here believe Synthesis is the only option and that the rest of us all have the minds of racists...or something. In any case, I probably won't bother with the original cut simply because it's not how things ended up turning out and my argument is based solely on the EC.
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