Amirit
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Amirit on Dec 5, 2016 21:52:29 GMT
Too lazy to link the tweet, but go to his profile and see for yourselves if you don't believe me (why wouldn't you?). So, there was a bit of misinformation from IGN when they quoted Mac for having said that all romances are available regardless of gender. He corrected them and clarified that romance options depend specifically on whether you're Scott or Sara. So no player-sexuality, and no "one for the bisexuals, gays and straight". In other words, characters are given agency this time, and romance will just as much depend on whether they dig you in the first place so you're not just ordering which romance you want within your possibility. It could very well be that most characters are bisexual or anything, but really, what matters here seems to be what they think of each other as persons and not as sex-objects. Also, this is fantastic. It can mean that when playing as Scott, Sara will find love with one of her romance-exclusive companions during the campaign as well, and in terms of choices it means they're that much more tightly planned for whatever sequels Andromeda might have. But this is what we had in ME (did not we?) and DAI. Why is it surprising? I totally understand (I do!) possible concern about removing character's sexuality (DA2-style), but that would be (justified) paranoia talking not reasons
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Dec 5, 2016 22:04:42 GMT
Romance in DA:I was dependant on character, yes, whether you were male or female and alterations whether you were human, dwarf, qunari or elven but the focus was still on the player becuase the player was essentially a nobody because you could customize them into oblivion. In ME:A it's more like DA2 where the protgaonist is a very specific character and they have a sibling who will be in the story regardless of which sibling you play as, so the female protagonist is not even the same character as the male. When Mac says romance depends on which character YOU are, I find it fascinating because it means the romance options will be available not due to whether you're a man or a woman or gay or straight and even if those things factor in, there's a potential the romance more occurs because Vetra likes Scott but not Sara or Peebee and Sara have a natural connection moreso than Peebee and scott.
Of course, the elven female Solas romance in DA:I was fantastic but that was still just one outcome of the same character. In ME:A whatever you do, you're either Scott or Sara and romances will depend more on that than your "create-a-character" customization.
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Post by Kian on Dec 5, 2016 23:40:18 GMT
Yes, they should include a few bi- characters, but also should watch out to pick the right characters... I still laugh my ass off when I think they made Kaidan bi-... ridiculous... just ridiculous.... They didn't "make" Kaidan bi for ME3. As a matter of fact, as far as I know, they never stated officially yes or no. That aside though, from a character point of view, Kaidan was never identified in ME1 and ME2 as str8. He has sex with a woman, but that does not mean he's str8. Of course that's the usual preconception of the less educated. Generally society assumes one is str8 "until proven otherwise" which is idiotic. And claiming something is valid because "most people think it is" is an argumentum ad populum (aka a logical fallacy) Anyway, to sum it up: the subject doesn't really come up so if you're used to using your brain, you'll realise from ME1 (seeing it the first time that is) that Kaidan may be bi. I like to think that was the writer's intention since there are quite a few signals. Obviously, if there is a Bioware dev that has specifically said, at some point, that Kaidan was str8 and they changed that for ME3 as fan service, then I'm wrong about this (though I'm not wrong in the reasoning that lead me to this conclusion, it's just a bit of meta data that I couldn't have taken into consideration).
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2016 0:05:08 GMT
Yes, they should include a few bi- characters, but also should watch out to pick the right characters... I still laugh my ass off when I think they made Kaidan bi-... ridiculous... just ridiculous.... They didn't "make" Kaidan bi for ME3. As a matter of fact, as far as I know, they never stated officially yes or no. That aside though, from a character point of view, Kaidan was never identified in ME1 and ME2 as str8. He has sex with a woman, but that does not mean he's str8. Of course that's the usual preconception of the less educated. Generally society assumes one is str8 "until proven otherwise" which is idiotic. And claiming something is valid because "most people think it is" is an argumentum ad populum (aka a logical fallacy) Anyway, to sum it up: the subject doesn't really come up so if you're used to using your brain, you'll realise from ME1 (seeing it the first time that is) that Kaidan may be bi. I like to think that was the writer's intention since there are quite a few signals. Obviously, if there is a Bioware dev that has specifically said, at some point, that Kaidan was str8 and they changed that for ME3 as fan service, then I'm wrong about this (though I'm not wrong in the reasoning that lead me to this conclusion, it's just a bit of meta data that I couldn't have taken into consideration). In fairness, I think Kaidan was likely intended to be straight in ME1. Of course, it was never confirmed. And that's the interesting way that bisexuality is perceived -- we have a "straight until proven otherwise" norm, unfortunately. It's totally flawed and it causes this exact situation. When people say that that Kaidan was 'straight' in ME1, they are making an assumption. There's certainly evidence to support it, but the more accurate thing to say is that he isn't gay (or he is either straight or bisexual). But, of course, people just assume heterosexuality. (insert the blah blah blah "heterosexuality is the 'norm' so it's okay to assume that everyone is straight" blah blah blah). And that's where the whole "changed sexuality" thing comes from. I agree that there's plenty of subtext between ME1 and ME2 that could lead to an interpretation that he's into Shep. And it's crazy to me for people to think that it came out of nowhere. The sexual tension between them was crazy.
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Post by Catilina on Dec 6, 2016 0:11:11 GMT
They didn't "make" Kaidan bi for ME3. As a matter of fact, as far as I know, they never stated officially yes or no. That aside though, from a character point of view, Kaidan was never identified in ME1 and ME2 as str8. He has sex with a woman, but that does not mean he's str8. Of course that's the usual preconception of the less educated. Generally society assumes one is str8 "until proven otherwise" which is idiotic. And claiming something is valid because "most people think it is" is an argumentum ad populum (aka a logical fallacy) Anyway, to sum it up: the subject doesn't really come up so if you're used to using your brain, you'll realise from ME1 (seeing it the first time that is) that Kaidan may be bi. I like to think that was the writer's intention since there are quite a few signals. Obviously, if there is a Bioware dev that has specifically said, at some point, that Kaidan was str8 and they changed that for ME3 as fan service, then I'm wrong about this (though I'm not wrong in the reasoning that lead me to this conclusion, it's just a bit of meta data that I couldn't have taken into consideration). In fairness, I think Kaidan was likely intended to be straight in ME1. Of course, it was never confirmed. And that's the interesting way that bisexuality is perceived -- we have a "straight until proven otherwise" norm, unfortunately. It's totally flawed and it causes this exact situation. When people say that that Kaidan was 'straight' in ME1, they are making an assumption. There's certainly evidence to support it, but the more accurate thing to say is that he isn't gay (or he is either straight or bisexual). But, of course, people just assume heterosexuality. (insert the blah blah blah "heterosexuality is the 'norm' so it's okay to assume that everyone is straight" blah blah blah). And that's where the whole "changed sexuality" thing comes from. I agree that there's plenty of subtext between ME1 and ME2 that could lead to an interpretation that he's into Shep. And it's crazy to me for people to think that it came out of nowhere. The sexual tension between them was crazy. Exactly so!
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Post by luzarius on Dec 19, 2016 15:49:30 GMT
I prefer no restrictions of any kind. Then you can replay the game in many different ways with different role plays. I understand that it makes it slightly more immersive to have defined sexual preferences, but it's too limiting and hurts replay value IMO.
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Post by Lady Artifice on Dec 19, 2016 21:39:55 GMT
Romance in DA:I was dependant on character, yes, whether you were male or female and alterations whether you were human, dwarf, qunari or elven but the focus was still on the player becuase the player was essentially a nobody because you could customize them into oblivion. In ME:A it's more like DA2 where the protgaonist is a very specific character and they have a sibling who will be in the story regardless of which sibling you play as, so the female protagonist is not even the same character as the male. When Mac says romance depends on which character YOU are, I find it fascinating because it means the romance options will be available not due to whether you're a man or a woman or gay or straight and even if those things factor in, there's a potential the romance more occurs because Vetra likes Scott but not Sara or Peebee and Sara have a natural connection moreso than Peebee and scott. Of course, the elven female Solas romance in DA:I was fantastic but that was still just one outcome of the same character. In ME:A whatever you do, you're either Scott or Sara and romances will depend more on that than your "create-a-character" customization. I think you're reading a lot into Mac's evasive comment that might not actually be there. Unless we assume that Sara and Scott are each partially set characters that will have reliably distinct personalities no matter how we play them, then there isn't a hugely impactful way to consistently differentiate them other than gender. I certainly hope their personalities aren't set in such a way. I was hoping for more refined control over my character's personality and preferences in this game, not less.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by dmc1001 on Dec 23, 2016 5:37:02 GMT
Yes, they should include a few bi- characters, but also should watch out to pick the right characters... I still laugh my ass off when I think they made Kaidan bi-... ridiculous... just ridiculous.... They didn't "make" Kaidan bi for ME3. As a matter of fact, as far as I know, they never stated officially yes or no. That aside though, from a character point of view, Kaidan was never identified in ME1 and ME2 as str8. He has sex with a woman, but that does not mean he's str8. Of course that's the usual preconception of the less educated. Generally society assumes one is str8 "until proven otherwise" which is idiotic. And claiming something is valid because "most people think it is" is an argumentum ad populum (aka a logical fallacy) Anyway, to sum it up: the subject doesn't really come up so if you're used to using your brain, you'll realise from ME1 (seeing it the first time that is) that Kaidan may be bi. I like to think that was the writer's intention since there are quite a few signals. Obviously, if there is a Bioware dev that has specifically said, at some point, that Kaidan was str8 and they changed that for ME3 as fan service, then I'm wrong about this (though I'm not wrong in the reasoning that lead me to this conclusion, it's just a bit of meta data that I couldn't have taken into consideration). It's clear even in ME3 that Kaidan appreciates the female body, even if he ends up in a relationship with BroShep. It could be Shepard is pretty much the only guy that might interest Kaidan and he's otherwise into women. Or, ya know, the spectrum of sexuality isn't A-B-C. It's way more complicated and doesn't have to fit into a special mold. However, it is certain that Kaidan is sexually interested in women regardless of who he romances.
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Post by geometricflowers on Dec 30, 2016 16:49:19 GMT
That's fair. I figured Kaidan was a 1 or 2 on the Kinsey scale, personally. Mostly into women, but also interested in the occasional man.
(On a related note, is it just me or do most Bioware bisexuals state more preference for women? Ex: Leliana, Zevran, Anders, Isabella, Iron Bull, etc. Then again, those are all DA, so maybe that's mostly limited to that series.)
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2016 16:58:53 GMT
That's fair. I figured Kaidan was a 1 or 2 on the Kinsey scale, personally. Mostly into women, but also interested in the occasional man. (On a related note, is it just me or do most Bioware bisexuals state more preference for women? Ex: Leliana, Zevran, Anders, Isabella, Iron Bull, etc. Then again, those are all DA, so maybe that's mostly limited to that series.) Yeah, it's not just you. To date, none of the bisexual guys have demonstrated a preference for men. All of them talk way more about women than men. Sky, Kaidan, & Fenris don't show any interest in men outside of the PC. Anders' only interest in men is Karl, but that's only to the male Hawke. To female Hawke, he never shows any interest in men. Bull will only show interest in another man if both he and Dorian aren't romanced and you've had them in the party long enough to trigger a romance between them. Zevran makes a passing reference to a Prince who has naked when he killed him and, some believe, that he and Talisen were romantically involved, but it's never confirmed in game. The bisexual female characters do show more same sex interest. In addition to Leliana and Isabela, there's also Silk Fox who can end up in a triple relationship with the male PC and Dawn Star. And a bunch of the asari (including Samara and Morinth) show a preference to other women, though I suppose it could be explained in the lore since the species is all female and for millennia they had to reproduce with each other (i.e. other females). Frankly, overall, I believe it falls back on that whole, "Two guys are gross but two girls are hawt" nonsense.
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princessdemeter
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Post by princessdemeter on Dec 31, 2016 4:05:56 GMT
Zevran makes a passing reference to a Prince who has naked when he killed him and, some believe, that he and Talisen were romantically involved, but it's never confirmed in game. Actually, Zevran and Taliesen is canon and confirmed in World of Thedas. They were involved in a polyamorous relationship with Rinna ...at least, for a while. Didn't end well on any front.
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Ianamus
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Post by Ianamus on Jan 1, 2017 15:09:44 GMT
That's fair. I figured Kaidan was a 1 or 2 on the Kinsey scale, personally. Mostly into women, but also interested in the occasional man. (On a related note, is it just me or do most Bioware bisexuals state more preference for women? Ex: Leliana, Zevran, Anders, Isabella, Iron Bull, etc. Then again, those are all DA, so maybe that's mostly limited to that series.) Yeah, it's not just you. To date, none of the bisexual guys have demonstrated a preference for men. All of them talk way more about women than men. Sky, Kaidan, & Fenris don't show any interest in men outside of the PC. Anders' only interest in men is Karl, but that's only to the male Hawke. To female Hawke, he never shows any interest in men. Bull will only show interest in another man if both he and Dorian aren't romanced and you've had them in the party long enough to trigger a romance between them. Zevran makes a passing reference to a Prince who has naked when he killed him and, some believe, that he and Talisen were romantically involved, but it's never confirmed in game. The bisexual female characters do show more same sex interest. In addition to Leliana and Isabela, there's also Silk Fox who can end up in a triple relationship with the male PC and Dawn Star. And a bunch of the asari (including Samara and Morinth) show a preference to other women, though I suppose it could be explained in the lore since the species is all female and for millennia they had to reproduce with each other (i.e. other females). Frankly, overall, I believe it falls back on that whole, "Two guys are gross but two girls are hawt" nonsense. I don't think it's because "two guys are gross", or even primarily about male players. I think it's mostly like that to allow female players to romance their dudes without having to worry that they might be more attracted to guys than them. I mean, look at Anders. Your average straight male player who plays male Hawke still sees Anders male lover and has him flirt with them, it's only those playing a female protagonist who never have to see this and get the illusion that he isn't interested in men at all. Nor do they with Fenris, who doesn't really express interest in anyone outside of the player or Isabela. Kaidan was clearly designed to be a love interest for female players first and foremost, given that he isn't even available for men until the final game. To me this looks like "Men are happy to date women who are bi, but women don't want a man who expresses interest in other men". Wasn't the original excuse for Karl and Anders relationship not being disclosed with a female Hawke that he didn't want to make "Hawke" (or, rather, the average female player behind her) feel awkward?
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Post by Catilina on Jan 1, 2017 15:19:59 GMT
Yeah, it's not just you. To date, none of the bisexual guys have demonstrated a preference for men. All of them talk way more about women than men. Sky, Kaidan, & Fenris don't show any interest in men outside of the PC. Anders' only interest in men is Karl, but that's only to the male Hawke. To female Hawke, he never shows any interest in men. Bull will only show interest in another man if both he and Dorian aren't romanced and you've had them in the party long enough to trigger a romance between them. Zevran makes a passing reference to a Prince who has naked when he killed him and, some believe, that he and Talisen were romantically involved, but it's never confirmed in game. The bisexual female characters do show more same sex interest. In addition to Leliana and Isabela, there's also Silk Fox who can end up in a triple relationship with the male PC and Dawn Star. And a bunch of the asari (including Samara and Morinth) show a preference to other women, though I suppose it could be explained in the lore since the species is all female and for millennia they had to reproduce with each other (i.e. other females). Frankly, overall, I believe it falls back on that whole, "Two guys are gross but two girls are hawt" nonsense. I don't think it's because "two guys are gross", or even primarily about male players. I think it's mostly like that to allow female players to romance their dudes without having to worry that they might be more attracted to guys than them. I mean, look at Anders. Your average straight male player who plays male Hawke still to see Anders male lover and have him flirt with them, it's only those playing a female protagonist who never have to see this and get the illusion that he isn't interested in men at all. Nor do they with Fenris, who doesn't really express interest in anyone outside of the player or Isabela. Kaidan was clearly designed to be a love interest for female players first and foremost, given that he isn't even available for men until the final game. To me this looks like "Men are happy to date women who are bi, but women don't want a man who expresses interest in other men". Wasn't the original excuse for Karl and Anders relationship not being disclosed with a female Hawke that he didn't want to make "her" :cough:theplayer:cough: feel awkward? Perhaps this is an explanation, but it shows a sad picture. Was it really necessary?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2017 17:11:35 GMT
I don't think it's because "two guys are gross", or even primarily about male players. I think it's mostly like that to allow female players to romance their dudes without having to worry that they might be more attracted to guys than them. I mean, look at Anders. Your average straight male player who plays male Hawke still sees Anders male lover and has him flirt with them, it's only those playing a female protagonist who never have to see this and get the illusion that he isn't interested in men at all. Nor do they with Fenris, who doesn't really express interest in anyone outside of the player or Isabela. Kaidan was clearly designed to be a love interest for female players first and foremost, given that he isn't even available for men until the final game. To me this looks like "Men are happy to date women who are bi, but women don't want a man who expresses interest in other men". Wasn't the original excuse for Karl and Anders relationship not being disclosed with a female Hawke that he didn't want to make "Hawke" (or, rather, the average female player behind her) feel awkward? That's an interesting theory, but I'm not sure I'm totally buying it. If it were primarily female devs or if there was some accepted norm about women not being into two guys, then maybe that's the case. But it's mostly male devs and, while there are certainly some ladies who don't like seeing two men together, I'm not sure if it's a commonly accepted "norm" that people would want to build characters around. So it seems as if it's male devs making the decision and deciding that female players would be uncomfortable with a bisexual guy who is into guys. But I don't know of what they would base this on. So it comes back, for me, to the idea that the male devs (whether consciously or subconsciously) identify male characters who are into other male characters as less desirable for female players. Maybe I'm wrong about this, but that's how I see it.
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Post by Ianamus on Jan 1, 2017 17:29:29 GMT
I don't think it's because "two guys are gross", or even primarily about male players. I think it's mostly like that to allow female players to romance their dudes without having to worry that they might be more attracted to guys than them. I mean, look at Anders. Your average straight male player who plays male Hawke still sees Anders male lover and has him flirt with them, it's only those playing a female protagonist who never have to see this and get the illusion that he isn't interested in men at all. Nor do they with Fenris, who doesn't really express interest in anyone outside of the player or Isabela. Kaidan was clearly designed to be a love interest for female players first and foremost, given that he isn't even available for men until the final game. To me this looks like "Men are happy to date women who are bi, but women don't want a man who expresses interest in other men". Wasn't the original excuse for Karl and Anders relationship not being disclosed with a female Hawke that he didn't want to make "Hawke" (or, rather, the average female player behind her) feel awkward? That's an interesting theory, but I'm not sure I'm totally buying it. If it were primarily female devs or if there was some accepted norm about women not being into two guys, then maybe that's the case. But it's mostly male devs and, while there are certainly some ladies who don't like seeing two men together, I'm not sure if it's a commonly accepted "norm" that people would want to build characters around. So it seems as if it's male devs making the decision and deciding that female players would be uncomfortable with a bisexual guy who is into guys. But I don't know of what they would base this on. So it comes back, for me, to the idea that the male devs (whether consciously or subconsciously) identify male characters who are into other male characters as less desirable for female players. Maybe I'm wrong about this, but that's how I see it. I'm certain it was the case with Anders Romance, at the very least. It doesn't matter what the devs are primarily, the programmers and artists have no say in the matter. All that matters in these cases is who the writer of that particular character was, and we know Anders was written by a woman in Dragon Age 2. I don't want to single her out or anything, but I have never agreed with her decision to hide Anders and Karls relationship (or, potentially, have it not exist at all) if the player is playing as a female Hawke. While the male devs probably also consciously or subconsciously believe that male characters who express interest in other men are less desirable to female players, female devs are clearly not immune to this either. As shown above, the most blatant example of this came from a female dev.
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Post by Catilina on Jan 1, 2017 17:36:22 GMT
That's an interesting theory, but I'm not sure I'm totally buying it. If it were primarily female devs or if there was some accepted norm about women not being into two guys, then maybe that's the case. But it's mostly male devs and, while there are certainly some ladies who don't like seeing two men together, I'm not sure if it's a commonly accepted "norm" that people would want to build characters around. So it seems as if it's male devs making the decision and deciding that female players would be uncomfortable with a bisexual guy who is into guys. But I don't know of what they would base this on. So it comes back, for me, to the idea that the male devs (whether consciously or subconsciously) identify male characters who are into other male characters as less desirable for female players. Maybe I'm wrong about this, but that's how I see it. I'm certain it was the case with Anders Romance, at the very least. It doesn't matter what the devs are primarily, the programmers and artists have no say in the matter. All that matters in these cases is who the writer of that particular character was, and we know Anders was written by a woman in Dragon Age 2. I don't want to single her out or anything, but I have never agreed with her decision to hide Anders and Karls relationship (or, potentially, have it not exist at all) if the player is playing as a female Hawke. While the male devs probably also consciously or subconsciously believe that male characters who express interest in other men are less desirable to female players, female devs are clearly not immune to this either. As shown above, the most blatant example of this came from a female dev. Whatever the reason, it was a stupid decision, even if there was no prejudices behind (hard to believe, but let's be bona fide...).
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2017 17:37:35 GMT
I'm certain it was the case with Anders Romance, at the very least. It doesn't matter what the devs are primarily, all that really matters in these individual cases is who the writer of that particular character was, and we know Anders was written by a woman in Dragon Age 2. I don't want to single her out or anything, but I always questioned her decision to hide Anders and Karls relationship (or potentially, have it not exist at all) if the player is playing as a female Hawke. While the male devs probably also consciously or subconsciously believe that male characters who express interest in other men are less desirable to female players, female devs are clearly not immune to this either. As shown above, the most blatant example of this came from a female dev. That's a fair point. I knew that Anders' writer in DA2 was a woman, but I had never heard her rationale for why they hid Karl from a LadyHawke. If that's really the case, that's pretty silly. And I take your word for it. Either way, it does come down to these societal stereotypes that men who are into other men are "less desirable" and "less manly". And that's what I think is at the root of this phenomenon with the bisexual male LI's in these games. Whether they mean to or not, the devs perpetuate this by making sure that any bisexual guy goes out of his way to make his clear attraction to women known and, sometimes, even goes further by doing the whole, "I'm not normally into guys....." thing. It's certainly not the end of the world, but it's irritating to say the least. I had high hopes for Bull since they really sold him as being into "anyone who he feels won't break". But that mostly ended up with him going on and on and on about redheads and barmaids. I was kind of hoping to hear a few "Well that guy was hot...." stuff from him. Maybe it will happen in ME: A. But I'm honestly not holding my breath on that since this particular franchise doesn't have the best track record when it comes to m/m romances. But I'm stupidly optimistic sometimes.
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Post by fialka on Jan 1, 2017 17:55:49 GMT
I don't think it's because "two guys are gross", or even primarily about male players. I think it's mostly like that to allow female players to romance their dudes without having to worry that they might be more attracted to guys than them. I mean, look at Anders. Your average straight male player who plays male Hawke still to see Anders male lover and have him flirt with them, it's only those playing a female protagonist who never have to see this and get the illusion that he isn't interested in men at all. Nor do they with Fenris, who doesn't really express interest in anyone outside of the player or Isabela. Kaidan was clearly designed to be a love interest for female players first and foremost, given that he isn't even available for men until the final game. To me this looks like "Men are happy to date women who are bi, but women don't want a man who expresses interest in other men". Wasn't the original excuse for Karl and Anders relationship not being disclosed with a female Hawke that he didn't want to make "her" :cough:theplayer:cough: feel awkward? Perhaps this is an explanation, but it shows a sad picture. Was it really necessary? Exactly this. Especially since that same care isn't given to gay male players worrying about their love interest being more attracted to women than to them. Personally I found, as a female player who played a female character, the Anders and Karl thing insulting at worst. At best, it comes across as them shoehorning in the fact that, hey, Anders is into dudes, just for the sake of telling guys that he's An Option. In case him flirting with you doesn't make that obvious enough or something? Hearing about my male LI's attraction to men is way less awkward than hearing about his <tragic past with his dead wife/ex-lover> that I have to comfort him about or his <chantry sister/flexible Turian scout /Isabela/Miranda and that chick he cheats on you with> but game devs have no qualms about including that. (As an aside... anyone else find it sadly ironic that Mass Effect's one gay male romance falls into this trope too...? I mean, at least the guys got a second option and I love Steve as a character but, jeez...) Personally, I prefer not to hear about a guy's exploits, regardless of gender, unless it's relevant. In the case of Karl, it was relevant. In the case of Bull screwing some Chantry girl, it wasn't - they could have easily had her admire him for afar and get cold feet in the end and it would have been just as amusing. We get it, women find him attractive. Sew the seed and all that, without making us wonder who else he's slept with (or is sleeping with) as we romance him. But if you must, why not mix up the genders for a bisexual character? If a female player is that uncomfortable with the idea she can always pick someone else. Just as in real life, you has no business dating a bisexual person if it's going to gross you out or make you insecure.
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Post by Ianamus on Jan 1, 2017 18:02:29 GMT
I'm certain it was the case with Anders Romance, at the very least. It doesn't matter what the devs are primarily, all that really matters in these individual cases is who the writer of that particular character was, and we know Anders was written by a woman in Dragon Age 2. I don't want to single her out or anything, but I always questioned her decision to hide Anders and Karls relationship (or potentially, have it not exist at all) if the player is playing as a female Hawke. While the male devs probably also consciously or subconsciously believe that male characters who express interest in other men are less desirable to female players, female devs are clearly not immune to this either. As shown above, the most blatant example of this came from a female dev. That's a fair point. I knew that Anders' writer in DA2 was a woman, but I had never heard her rationale for why they hid Karl from a LadyHawke. If that's really the case, that's pretty silly. And I take your word for it. Either way, it does come down to these societal stereotypes that men who are into other men are "less desirable" and "less manly". And that's what I think is at the root of this phenomenon with the bisexual male LI's in these games. Whether they mean to or not, the devs perpetuate this by making sure that any bisexual guy goes out of his way to make his clear attraction to women known and, sometimes, even goes further by doing the whole, "I'm not normally into guys....." thing. It's certainly not the end of the world, but it's irritating to say the least. I had high hopes for Bull since they really sold him as being into "anyone who he feels won't break". But that mostly ended up with him going on and on and on about redheads and barmaids. I was kind of hoping to hear a few "Well that guy was hot...." stuff from him. Maybe it will happen in ME: A. But I'm honestly not holding my breath on that since this particular franchise doesn't have the best track record when it comes to m/m romances. But I'm stupidly optimistic sometimes. I believe that they initially claimed the LI's sexualities were up for player interpretation and flexible, so if playing as a female Hawke Anders could be straight, and if playing as a male Hawke he could be gay, or something along those lines. But after people told them about bisexual erasure they backtracked and said Anders only hid the relationship because he didn't feel it was appropriate to mention it to a female Hawke. Don't take my word completely, this is just what I gathered from the old BSN and developer quotes back there. I'm fairly confident it's accurate, though. I agree that the stereotype is annoying. Honestly Fenris and Merrill are my favourite bi LI's, despite the ambiguity, because neither feel the need to validate their sexuality by mentioning they find both genders attractive repeatedly. The only time you get any indication of what Fenris likes is when he's in a relationship with you or Isabela, which I appreciated. I'm not sure how I want them to handle it going forward. I don't want bi LI's to always prefer women, but I'm not sure that having one who mostly talks about men would be better. I suppose I just want a character where whatever they say or don't say about themselves feels natural, not like everything they say about their sexuality is for the players benefit. I'm also quite optimistic about ME:A. While the series doesn't have the best track record with m/m romances I'd say making Garrus a romance option was far more brave, and shows a willingness to go even further than the DA team. Im also fairly convinced that our female Turian squamate will have a romance arc, which is something I was hoping for, and their statement about creating male and female characters of all aliens was promising. I also really like what we've heard about ME:A's relationship system in general, it looks like they are working on improving the issues I had with previous ME games. But overall, in Mass Effect I'm more interested in them exploring the species angle than the gender angle. Like having an LI who's really into humans as a species and doesn't care about human gender. Same gender alien LI's who aren't Asari are something I really want to see in general, actually. Give me my male Quarian already bioware!!!. But the only Bioware game that gave me a male LI I liked more than the female ones was Fenris in DA2, so male LI's in these games don't have the best track record with me in general.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2017 18:17:33 GMT
I think what I'd like to see with bisexual LI's is just more of a variety. I don't want to see tropes being used over and over. And it's certainly getting better, in general.
I don't think there's anything wrong with having a promiscuous bisexual character (like Zevran and Isabela and Bull) because there are people like that. And there's nothing wrong with bisexual characters who don't mention their sexuality at all (like Merrill, Fenris, and Josephine) because they exist too. And there's nothing wrong with bisexual men having a strong preference for women (like Sky, Zevran, Kaidan, and Bull) because there are many bisexual guys who feel that way.
I just want to see them continue to offer variety. And one way to do that would be to have a bisexual guy who is unapologetic about his interest in men without having to have two mentions about women for each mention of a guy. I'm sure it will happen, but it would be nice to see sooner than later.
And, YES, to s/s aliens. Yeah, we have the Asari. But we've seen very few examples of other LGBT aliens. There's Gavorn, but it's pretty hidden away. It's only in a DLC AND it's on a video that you have to return to see and cycle through others AND it's implied. But it's still there. He's in a bedroom, sitting on a bed, being approached by a human male. I'm willing to take that as evidence that he's not only into males, but also into humans, which is kind of cool. And, of course, there's Nyreen. But outside of Turians, we don't really have any evidence of other species. I'm sure it exists, so let's see one or two in ME: A.
I maintain that I'd love to see a gay (not bisexual -- GAY) Krogan. Someone like Grunt. I think it would be awesome. And, I agree that a male Quarian would be pretty awesome too. Like a Reegar-esque guy.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jan 1, 2017 18:29:52 GMT
I believe that they initially claimed the LI's sexualities were up for player interpretation and flexible, so if playing as a female Hawke Anders could be straight, and if playing as a male Hawke he could be gay, or something along those lines. But after people told them about bisexual erasure they backtracked and said Anders only hid the relationship because he didn't feel it was appropriate to mention it to a female Hawke. Don't take my word completely, this is just what I gathered from the old BSN and developer quotes back there. I'm fairly confident it's accurate, though. I agree that the stereotype is annoying. Honestly Fenris and Merrill are my favourite bi LI's, despite the ambiguity, because neither feel the need to validate their sexuality by mentioning they find both genders attractive repeatedly. The only time you get any indication of what Fenris likes is when he's in a relationship with you or Isabela, which I appreciated. You are correct. Originally their plan was that two of the options would be seen as bisexual and the other two would be seen as ambiguous. But then certain people started complaining and Bioware unfortunately caved and made all four bisexual.
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Post by Ianamus on Jan 1, 2017 18:45:21 GMT
And, YES, to s/s aliens. Yeah, we have the Asari. But we've seen very few examples of other LGBT aliens. There's Gavorn, but it's pretty hidden away. It's only in a DLC AND it's on a video that you have to return to see and cycle through others AND it's implied. But it's still there. He's in a bedroom, sitting on a bed, being approached by a human male. I'm willing to take that as evidence that he's not only into males, but also into humans, which is kind of cool. And, of course, there's Nyreen. But outside of Turians, we don't really have any evidence of other species. I'm sure it exists, so let's see one or two in ME: A. I maintain that I'd love to see a gay (not bisexual -- GAY) Krogan. Someone like Grunt. I think it would be awesome. And, I agree that a male Quarian would be pretty awesome too. Like a Reegar-esque guy. I wish I could have seen Nyreen. I hear a lot about her but I completely dropped Mass Effect after seeing the original ending, and didn't start getting back into it until the recent Andromeda news. I have strong hopes for Vetra, though. A gay Krogan would be really cool. Especially if they weren't an LI, but were still a prominent character. Though I'm sure several people would want them to be an LI, and I'd have nothing against it. I'd love a Reegar-esque character, or at least someone a bit grittier than what we've had so far. Though I have doubts about any Quarians being in, I'm still hopeful. I think the reason they resort to Turians for most of the non-asari queer characters is because Salarians are basically asexual and most of the other species aren't human enough for many to find attractive. That's the problem with making the fanservice species female only!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2017 18:45:50 GMT
But Anders in an m/m romance has never been ambiguous. He clearly says that gender doesn't matter to him but the person behind it. Only the Anders in an w/m playthrough could be seen as ambiguous.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2017 19:13:17 GMT
I wish I could have seen Nyreen. I hear a lot about her but I completely dropped Mass Effect after seeing the original ending, and didn't start getting back into it until the recent Andromeda news. I have strong hopes for Vetra, though. A gay Krogan would be really cool. Especially if they weren't an LI, but were still a prominent character. Though I'm sure several people would want them to be an LI, and I'd have nothing against it. I'd love a Reegar-esque character, or at least someone a bit grittier than what we've had so far. Though I have doubts about any Quarians being in, I'm still hopeful. I think the reason they resort to Turians for most of the non-asari queer characters is because Salarians are basically asexual and most of the other species aren't human enough for many to find attractive. That's the problem with making the fanservice species female only! Nyreen was okay. She was an okay character. Not anything special. I think had she been a human or asari, no one would have thought twice about her. But she was our first female turian so everyone lost their minds and gives her a bit more credit than I think she deserves. And, yeah, that's what I was thinking for the gay krogan. Just a squaddie, not an LI. It's one of the very minor quibbles that I have is that, because they don't want to add too many gay guys, any gay guy of prominence ends up being an LI. But I'd love for there to be a non-romanceable gay guy. In addition to a romanceable one, of course. And bonus points if they don't hook up with each other if unromanced. But Anders in an m/m romance has never been ambiguous. He clearly says that gender doesn't matter to him but the person behind it. Only the Anders in an w/m playthrough could be seen as ambiguous. I don't view Anders as two separate characters, though. I view him as one character who is acting very differently for men and women PCs. He's not ambiguous about being bisexual when a male PC is around, but hides it from a female PC. It's actually pretty realistic, on one hand. But it's just a little disappointing for all of the reasons that I mentioned earlier.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2017 19:19:06 GMT
I wish I could have seen Nyreen. I hear a lot about her but I completely dropped Mass Effect after seeing the original ending, and didn't start getting back into it until the recent Andromeda news. I have strong hopes for Vetra, though. A gay Krogan would be really cool. Especially if they weren't an LI, but were still a prominent character. Though I'm sure several people would want them to be an LI, and I'd have nothing against it. I'd love a Reegar-esque character, or at least someone a bit grittier than what we've had so far. Though I have doubts about any Quarians being in, I'm still hopeful. I think the reason they resort to Turians for most of the non-asari queer characters is because Salarians are basically asexual and most of the other species aren't human enough for many to find attractive. That's the problem with making the fanservice species female only! Nyreen was okay. She was an okay character. Not anything special. I think had she been a human or asari, no one would have thought twice about her. But she was our first female turian so everyone lost their minds and gives her a bit more credit than I think she deserves. And, yeah, that's what I was thinking for the gay krogan. Just a squaddie, not an LI. It's one of the very minor quibbles that I have is that, because they don't want to add too many gay guys, any gay guy of prominence ends up being an LI. But I'd love for there to be a non-romanceable gay guy. In addition to a romanceable one, of course. And bonus points if they don't hook up with each other if unromanced. But Anders in an m/m romance has never been ambiguous. He clearly says that gender doesn't matter to him but the person behind it. Only the Anders in an w/m playthrough could be seen as ambiguous. I don't view Anders as two separate characters, though. I view him as one character who is acting very differently for men and women PCs. He's not ambiguous about being bisexual when a male PC is around, but hides it from a female PC. It's actually pretty realistic, on one hand. But it's just a little disappointing for all of the reasons that I mentioned earlier. Ye, I just pointed that out, because it was said that the developers initially said that two characters were planned to be bisexual and two ambiguous. But if you play as a male character only Merril could be seen as ambiguous at any point in the game. Fenris can enter an affair with Isabela, Anders points out, that gender doesn't matter to him and Isabela is very openly bisexual.
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