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Post by Fredward on Dec 24, 2016 4:59:24 GMT
Not loving what I'm hearing. The DAI like combat with the only two squad mates makes me wonder whether this respeccing thing is to allow the player to pick up the slack for inept squaddies. Don't care hugely about that since I'm not here for combat but still, lazy. Narratively... can you say "Mary Sue?" You have someone who can literally fill every combat role, presumably has expertise in every role from engineering/hacking/biotics/melee/shooting etc. Is there some kind of drawback to this, from a story perspective? Why hasn't this been rolled out to everyone if not? Why not skill trees? Too OP? Problems with the animation? Scott and Sara reacting differently cuz they have different personalities might go either way. If it's more like Hawke than the Inquisitor then it's fine, if it's aggressively pre-defined ie one is intolerably straight-laced/goody-two-shoes it's not okay. Deflecting the question on the main story's length and referencing exploration and stuff to do makes me narrow my eyes a bit. A Big MT world with a main story that's more like a side quest is definitely not what I want from a Bioware game. Also, reading the interview: Not being able to pause during combat is... going to be a problem for me. Also also, "it doesn't make sense for some characters to be bisexual." What? This line of reasoning is why they keep giving us promiscuous bisexuals in DA. This person likes the sex? Oh yes, it definitely makes sense for them to be bisexual.  Also also also, Gamble overuses the phrase "lean into." |
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Post by colfoley on Dec 24, 2016 5:38:01 GMT
Not loving what I'm hearing. The DAI like combat with the only two squad mates makes me wonder whether this respeccing thing is to allow the player to pick up the slack for inept squaddies. Don't care hugely about that since I'm not here for combat but still, lazy. Narratively... can you say "Mary Sue?" You have someone who can literally fill every combat role, presumably has expertise in every role from engineering/hacking/biotics/melee/shooting etc. Is there some kind of drawback to this, from a story perspective? Why hasn't this been rolled out to everyone if not? Why not skill trees? Too OP? Problems with the animation? Scott and Sara reacting differently cuz they have different personalities might go either way. If it's more like Hawke than the Inquisitor then it's fine, if it's aggressively pre-defined ie one is intolerably straight-laced/goody-two-shoes it's not okay. Deflecting the question on the main story's length and referencing exploration and stuff to do makes me narrow my eyes a bit. A Big MT world with a main story that's more like a side quest is definitely not what I want from a Bioware game. Also, reading the interview: Not being able to pause during combat is... going to be a problem for me. Also also, "it doesn't make sense for some characters to be bisexual." What? This line of reasoning is why they keep giving us promiscuous bisexuals in DA. This person likes the sex? Oh yes, it definitely makes sense for them to be bisexual. Also also also, Gamble overuses the phrase "lean into." How is the combat as described in ME A or seen in MEA any way, shape, or form, even in the same quadrant as that of Inquisition's? So far we have seen 2 companion characters used at any given time (DA I had 3). Presumably only 3 active powers at a time (DA I had 8) and you had to rely on your companions to fill very specific combat roles, whereas a lot of people are complaining...and they could be right...that the new system makes having companion characters superfilious. I mean sure it could be the action 'pacing' of the combat but just from a personal viewpoint the gameplay in the demo was a lot faster then anything in Inquisition. Plus in DA I you could pause the game and make tactical decisions any time you wanted. |
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Post by Fredward on Dec 24, 2016 5:49:01 GMT
How is the combat as described in ME A or seen in MEA any way, shape, or form, even in the same quadrant as that of Inquisition's? If the combat you saw in the demo had you thinking "Yes, this seems closer to ME than it does DAI" then... okay? I didn't really get that, personally. |
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Post by wright1978 on Dec 24, 2016 5:50:46 GMT
"Sara and Scott will react differently to situations or people because of their own personalities." Or how about you let me give my character whatever personality I want? Not liking that it seems like they're going to force you into a specific personality. "10- Now we've got a system in place where you can choose in conversations various kind of shades of grey." That sounds like they could very easily slip into the trap of making every dialogue choice boring/samey/or have no real difference/impact. And in regards to the "profile" system, I'm really hoping its an optional thing, that's how it came off as when we first heard of it and "4- No item or usage class restrictions." makes it seem like we aren't limited. I think profiles are just there for people who want a structured class Yep I want to be the one injecting the personality into the character through dialogue choice not watching them emote based on a pre conceived personality. i really hope I'm misreading situation and he's just talking about slight differences in dialogue choice between protagonists. I'm pretty happy with notion of more nuance in choices. |
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Post by colfoley on Dec 24, 2016 5:53:05 GMT
How is the combat as described in ME A or seen in MEA any way, shape, or form, even in the same quadrant as that of Inquisition's? If the combat you saw in the demo had you thinking "Yes, this seems closer to ME than it does DAI" then... okay? I didn't really get that, personally. My first reaction was its closer to Halo actually. But upon further review, taking all the comments, anyalisis, and sticking it into my own matrix and my own experiences it is much much closer to Mass Effects then Dragon Age. It was faster paced, had guns, and just all the other things I've already mentioned. |
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Post by hammerstorm on Dec 24, 2016 9:05:11 GMT
The Ryders are pathfinders. It's not just a title it's the reason they can do this. That's what has been stated previously, anyway. Presumably they are given all the necessary implants and training as part of becoming a pathfinder. They don't learn to use biotics instantly they already leraned how to use biotics. I reckon they have special implants which can be used to facilitate biotic or tech or combat abilities through some kind of reconfiguration. Or maybe it's done by Sam-controlled nanobots taking the place of the implants. I'm sure there are plenty of ways to explain it. Just needs a bit of imagination  hummmm....ALL pathfinders are trained biotics, Tech users, and soldiers. I got it that pathfinders are exceptional individuals but pray tell...WHERE did you read this?? On the official mass effect site there is "briefings" videos that you can see (2 for now). In the first they are talking about the Pathfinders team (and other things) and mention the training involves Weapon, Biotic and survival training. |
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ssanyesz
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Post by ssanyesz on Dec 24, 2016 9:16:04 GMT
I hope that using 3 active abilities is just a guess on everybody's part based on the gameplay video (which didn't really show us any detail about skills and their upgrades or choosing them), because 3 active abilites are way too few for this game when there will be lots of them to choose from.
This skil system almost sounds like Titan Quest's or Grim Dawn's with unlimited respec like in Diablo 3, start a character and choose skills or masteries you like or want to use, find/buy/craft and equip items/armor parts to enhance those abilities.
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Post by Ahriman on Dec 24, 2016 10:26:34 GMT
Finally some journalist which asks good questions for a change. I'll remain skeptical about the answers though.
Like yeah, bullet sponge enemies really show that.
That's the kind of answer I wanted to hear. Renegade/Paragon point grind was bad, but DAI-like 50 shades of neutral response were even worse. Still there is no way to know that this new system is satisfying whout playing the game, so he can tell how awesome it is and works in every way, right up until release.
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Post by Gileadan on Dec 24, 2016 10:43:59 GMT
Not loving what I'm hearing. The DAI like combat with the only two squad mates makes me wonder whether this respeccing thing is to allow the player to pick up the slack for inept squaddies. Don't care hugely about that since I'm not here for combat but still, lazy. Narratively... can you say "Mary Sue?" You have someone who can literally fill every combat role, presumably has expertise in every role from engineering/hacking/biotics/melee/shooting etc. Is there some kind of drawback to this, from a story perspective? Why hasn't this been rolled out to everyone if not? Why not skill trees? Too OP? Problems with the animation? This. My suspicion is that somehow the Ryders will be so special (remember the quote from the Kett stone-halo dude at the end of the trailer) that they can out-soldier James Vega, out-engineer Tali, out-snipe Garrus, out-infiltrate Thane and out-biotic Liara. Get the DLC and they will out-headbutt Wrex, too! Just only one thing at a time, you just need to switch around a lot. You just used biotic charge and a shotgun? Erm, your mind just needs a moment to re-focus so the question mark over your head goes away while you stare at than engineering related problem. EDIT: I also wonder how this is handled in game. If you have your vanguard skill set on and come to, say, a malfunctioning security panel that requires an engineer to fix, what happens? Will the panel's interaction icon signal you to switch to engineer to fix the panel? Will Ryder just say "I don't know what to do with this" until you switch? (Why not switch automatically?) Or will the interaction icon not even be there until you switch to engineer on your own? Or maybe we don't have these kinds of problems anymore and solve everything through combat... |
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Post by dropzofcrimzon on Dec 24, 2016 11:01:41 GMT
why connect two unrelated devices that can run separately at the same time (sentinels) and make them into one device that can only use one set of abilities at one time? How does that MAKE ANY SENSE??????? You are currently communicating via a device that is designed to run many separate unrelated applications, and you are more limited in how many of these applications you can run at once and the performance you can achieve from them than if each one was run on an independent dedicated device. To go to the other technological extreme, why would someone carry a swiss army knife with a bottle opener, corkscrew and screwdriver rather than carrying one of each? There are frequently reasons to accept performance limitations in return for reduced overheads. bull**** analogy, just because I am using Microsoft edge that does not mean my smartphone "forgets" how to make calls Even better if I were to make my smartphone and my knife one connected device and was told that this new "smart knife" device could only do one thing at the time I would say it is a downgrade since I cannot make phone calls while stabbing people... Stop trying so hard to justify nonsensical design choices, Bioware does not need more white knighiting. |
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Post by Ahriman on Dec 24, 2016 11:01:47 GMT
(Just spit balling here) We did hear reference in the trailer of the Ryders being 'special' maybe this is what makes them special? A simple trick of genetics coupled with an experimental technology giving them the ability to make them a lot more...swiss army like...then their peers. It would explain why, if the Milky Way had such technology, that they were not able to use the tech in the Milky Way...that we know of. Besides: I think this talk about implants is probably wrong anyways because in a previous article I read they were talking about the 'Gallery' where the whole swapping out of abilities (and presumably the profiles) take place. Now 'gallery' suggests surgical area to me, again probably wrong. I think if they try come up with some story-wise explanation they'll only fall into rabbit hole of nonsense. Nobody should come up with in-game reasons for how "skill reset bottles" work, it's just gameplay thing like health-bars, multiple sets of armor in a pocket and thousand of other things. |
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Post by Saboru on Dec 24, 2016 13:08:20 GMT
You are currently communicating via a device that is designed to run many separate unrelated applications, and you are more limited in how many of these applications you can run at once and the performance you can achieve from them than if each one was run on an independent dedicated device. To go to the other technological extreme, why would someone carry a swiss army knife with a bottle opener, corkscrew and screwdriver rather than carrying one of each? There are frequently reasons to accept performance limitations in return for reduced overheads. bull**** analogy, just because I am using Microsoft edge that does not mean my smartphone "forgets" how to make calls Even better if I were to make my smartphone and my knife one connected device and was told that this new "smart knife" device could only do one thing at the time I would say it is a downgrade since I cannot make phone calls while stabbing people... Stop trying so hard to justify nonsensical design choices, Bioware does not need more white knighiting. You've misunderstood, I wasn't referring to the design choice I was referring to the approach you would take to explaining it in the game using examples of situations where we accept reduced functionality in a multi-purpose tool rather that insisting on a series of dedicated devices. The design choice appears to be to move from their previous skill system - class based character build, respec limited, all selected skills available at all times - to a different model - use only x skills from y, no classes, respec reasonably freely. If you want to discuss that, then let's, but you'll have to give me better than calling it nonsensical, because it's a design that's worked in many games for many years. Having made that design choice, I do expect them to make an in universe nod to the change, in a similar way to the mention of 'now we have ammo' in ME2. That's what I was referring to. Now if you're referring to my stab at an explanation of that as nonsensical, fair enough. Rather than go round and round rules lawyering specifics let's just abstract it out a little. We have sacrificed elements of functionality 1 in return for improved performance in areas A, B and C, because currently we value areas A, B and C more highly than maintaining current performance levels for functionality 1. |
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Post by Vall on Dec 24, 2016 13:24:12 GMT
All this speculation, on how to explain the system...but really, the way I understand it is (if you include all info we have) -You have your skill trees (let's say combat, tech, biotic) -you invest points into these trees, getting skills -since it looks like you're limited to 3 skills at the time, you organize these acquired skills into loadouts or profiles which you can switch when needed -if you really need explanation, due to you not being locked to classes your omni-tool can only handle managing limited amount of skills think of it like, you can have installed TW3, DAI, ME3 and several other games at the same time, but you can reasonably run only one, at most two of them at the same time with reasonable performance, the same way with skills, you know how to use let's say throw, warp, cloak, charge, incinerate and overload ("installed skills") but you have to divide them into profiles, so you get -profile 1 with Charge, Throw, Overload -profile 2 with Cloak, Warp, Incinerate Well I hope that makes sense |
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Post by ssanyesz on Dec 24, 2016 14:33:09 GMT
All this speculation, on how to explain the system...but really, the way I understand it is (if you include all info we have) -You have your skill trees (let's say combat, tech, biotic) -you invest points into these trees, getting skills -since it looks like you're limited to 3 skills at the time, you organize these acquired skills into loadouts or profiles which you can switch when needed -if you really need explanation, due to you not being locked to classes your omni-tool can only handle managing limited amount of skills think of it like, you can have installed TW3, DAI, ME3 and several other games at the same time, but you can reasonably run only one, at most two of them at the same time with reasonable performance, the same way with skills, you know how to use let's say throw, warp, cloak, charge, incinerate and overload ("installed skills") but you have to divide them into profiles, so you get -profile 1 with Charge, Throw, Overload -profile 2 with Cloak, Warp, Incinerate Well I hope that makes sense I still think 3 skills are way too few, and probably it will have more at least i hope. Dragon's Dogma had 3 skills, but it got really boring really fast spamming those skills again, and again, and again, and... Most Action-RPGs has way more skills, hack'n'slash games has more than 3, Mass Effect 3's actiony Multiplayer had more It supposed to be an RPG, i hope that gameplay demo was just a taste of the combat system. We will see in january. Edit: Using 8 powers was fine in ME1-3, don't see any reason to deviate from that. |
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Post by Vall on Dec 24, 2016 14:49:40 GMT
I still think 3 skills are way too few, and probably it will have more at least i hope. Dragon's Dogma had 3 skills, but it got really boring really fast spamming those skills again, and again, and again, and... Most Action-RPGs has way more skills, hack'n'slash games has more than 3, Mass Effect 3's actiony Multiplayer had more It supposed to be an RPG, i hope that gameplay demo was just a taste of the combat system. We will see in january. Edit: Using 8 powers was fine in ME1-3, don't see any reason to deviate from that. You had 3 active skills per kit in ME3MP. But I don't disagree that 3 is too few (I tend to fill and not have enough space on DAO's generous bar, especially on mage )...however, so far it looks like there is just three, and these profiles could be a way around that I guess. But there's nothing wrong with hope and as they said sometime back, UI and controls are ever-changing until release so it could still change even if there is limit like that right now /shrug. |
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Dec 24, 2016 15:24:02 GMT
"Sara and Scott will react differently to situations or people because of their own personalities." Or how about you let me give my character whatever personality I want? Not liking that it seems like they're going to force you into a specific personality. "10- Now we've got a system in place where you can choose in conversations various kind of shades of grey." That sounds like they could very easily slip into the trap of making every dialogue choice boring/samey/or have no real difference/impact. And in regards to the "profile" system, I'm really hoping its an optional thing, that's how it came off as when we first heard of it and "4- No item or usage class restrictions." makes it seem like we aren't limited. I think profiles are just there for people who want a structured class
i really hope I'm misreading situation and he's just talking about slight differences in dialogue choice between protagonists.
I'm pretty happy with notion of more nuance in choices. We still will to an extent it's more I think that sis Ryder's Paragon response will be different from bro Ryder's because they have different personalities but we still get to choose whether to be Paragon Renegade or the various shades of grey we have in between as they say we have now. |
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Post by ssanyesz on Dec 24, 2016 15:47:14 GMT
I still think 3 skills are way too few, and probably it will have more at least i hope. Dragon's Dogma had 3 skills, but it got really boring really fast spamming those skills again, and again, and again, and... Most Action-RPGs has way more skills, hack'n'slash games has more than 3, Mass Effect 3's actiony Multiplayer had more It supposed to be an RPG, i hope that gameplay demo was just a taste of the combat system. We will see in january. Edit: Using 8 powers was fine in ME1-3, don't see any reason to deviate from that. You had 3 active skills per kit in ME3MP. But I don't disagree that 3 is too few (I tend to fill and not have enough space on DAO's generous bar, especially on mage )...however, so far it looks like there is just three, and these profiles could be a way around that I guess. But there's nothing wrong with hope and as they said sometime back, UI and controls are ever-changing until release so it could still change even if there is limit like that right now /shrug. True, it seems i forgot about the exact number, don't know why i remembered more. Maybe because of the rocket launcher, medi-gel, ammo pack etc. |
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Post by Wulfram on Dec 24, 2016 17:05:32 GMT
All this speculation, on how to explain the system...but really, the way I understand it is (if you include all info we have) -You have your skill trees (let's say combat, tech, biotic) -you invest points into these trees, getting skills -since it looks like you're limited to 3 skills at the time, you organize these acquired skills into loadouts or profiles which you can switch when needed -if you really need explanation, due to you not being locked to classes your omni-tool can only handle managing limited amount of skills think of it like, you can have installed TW3, DAI, ME3 and several other games at the same time, but you can reasonably run only one, at most two of them at the same time with reasonable performance, the same way with skills, you know how to use let's say throw, warp, cloak, charge, incinerate and overload ("installed skills") but you have to divide them into profiles, so you get -profile 1 with Charge, Throw, Overload -profile 2 with Cloak, Warp, Incinerate Well I hope that makes sense I still think 3 skills are way too few, and probably it will have more at least i hope. Dragon's Dogma had 3 skills, but it got really boring really fast spamming those skills again, and again, and again, and... Most Action-RPGs has way more skills, hack'n'slash games has more than 3, Mass Effect 3's actiony Multiplayer had more It supposed to be an RPG, i hope that gameplay demo was just a taste of the combat system. We will see in january. Edit: Using 8 powers was fine in ME1-3, don't see any reason to deviate from that. Dragon's Dogma has 6 skills, 3 Primary and 3 Secondary |
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Post by colfoley on Dec 24, 2016 17:45:37 GMT
All this speculation, on how to explain the system...but really, the way I understand it is (if you include all info we have) -You have your skill trees (let's say combat, tech, biotic) -you invest points into these trees, getting skills -since it looks like you're limited to 3 skills at the time, you organize these acquired skills into loadouts or profiles which you can switch when needed -if you really need explanation, due to you not being locked to classes your omni-tool can only handle managing limited amount of skills think of it like, you can have installed TW3, DAI, ME3 and several other games at the same time, but you can reasonably run only one, at most two of them at the same time with reasonable performance, the same way with skills, you know how to use let's say throw, warp, cloak, charge, incinerate and overload ("installed skills") but you have to divide them into profiles, so you get -profile 1 with Charge, Throw, Overload -profile 2 with Cloak, Warp, Incinerate Well I hope that makes sense This is not something that I considered but it makes a lot of sense and a way you can semi easily switch between your active powers because you can set up power profiles based on either the A. combat situation. or B. squad selection. This is a way to at least get over the three power limit, at least if we can. The only thing I worry about is I think the profiles are pre selected per what Gamble indicated. You unlock certain number of abilities and then you unlock the 'engineer' profile which then gives you three of those abilities out of those tech abilities and you can't mix and match between them. Hope I am wrong but I think this is more like what Gamble was talking about. |
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Post by jtav on Dec 24, 2016 17:47:57 GMT
Stuff like this, I have one rule. If it leads to entertaining gameplay then it's wonderful, if the gameplay is not entertaining, then it's a horrible idea. I don't mind handwavium; it's what you do with it that counts.
Now the differing personalities for the PCs is another thing if only because the writers can be very stereotypical in their thinking. I'm afraid mRyder will be very irreverent and generally a cut up. Some of us enjoy playing straightlaced serious characters regardless of gender.
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Post by goishen on Dec 24, 2016 18:00:37 GMT
I bet you the way it will work is they all will do some kind of explosion. Say, you take Biotic. You get to choose between Reave, Singularity, and Dark Channel (primer) as a primary and Throw, Shockwave, and Warp (I believe?) as a secondary (detonator). You choose soldier, it goes to something where it causes either a fire explosion, a cryo blast, etc. Same way with the engineer but with Tech explosions, same way with the Sentinel, etc.
They really want people to figure out these explosions. They thought that ME3MP would be a way for them to do that, and for some it was (me). But for others, not so. So they are throwing explosions in our faces.
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Post by Enigmaticks on Dec 24, 2016 18:02:37 GMT
Stuff like this, I have one rule. If it leads to entertaining gameplay then it's wonderful, if the gameplay is not entertaining, then it's a horrible idea. I don't mind handwavium; it's what you do with it that counts. Now the differing personalities for the PCs is another thing if only because the writers can be very stereotypical in their thinking. I'm afraid mRyder will be very irreverent and generally a cut up. Some of us enjoy playing straightlaced serious characters regardless of gender. I wouldn't worry about that too much given there are tone options now and the bits of dialogue with mRyder have all been serious and straightlaced. |
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Post by maximusarael020 on Dec 24, 2016 18:05:30 GMT
Well, that spiraled into negativity quickly. I'm pretty sure unless the devs said they are making a ME1 clone with ME3 combat, no one would be happy.
I'm not worried about the switching of roles/kits thing. If I want to play as an Infiltrator I will just play as an Infiltrator. I'm guessing the system is more nuanced than the short interview lets on, anyway. I doubt when they say the players start of green and inexperienced that they also start off having every ability at their disposal. I'm interested in the new system and will wait to see it in practice before I denounce it as the bane of existence.
There could be a plausible explanation of how one person could have engineering and biotic and infiltrating and close-combat expertise. Has anyone seen the Sylvester Stallone movie "Demolition Man"? In it, prisoners are put into cryo stasis. During rehabilitation they are given skills through subliminal messages, like knitting or cooking. They main antagonist gets skills for weapons use, infiltration, etc. This could be employed on the 600 year journey to Andromeda. If we say the Ryder siblings are always biotic, then getting subliminal training in engineering and infiltration is easy. They have the base knowledge ingrained in them and can "level" up their other skills if they choose.
You're welcome!
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Post by sandalisthemaker on Dec 24, 2016 18:43:52 GMT
Also also, "it doesn't make sense for some characters to be bisexual." What? This line of reasoning is why they keep giving us promiscuous bisexuals in DA. This person likes the sex? Oh yes, it definitely makes sense for them to be bisexual. Also also also, Gamble overuses the phrase "lean into." Oh good god.    I didn't read the article, but did they actually say that? Do they even hear themselves when they say things like this? Edit: I did read it. WHY NOT, BIOWARE? What do you mean by this? What character traits do you deem incompatible with certain sexualities? Bisexuals don't act a certain way? They can only be a certain way? I would love for them to elaborate on this. SMH. For the record I am not advocating for all LI's to be bisexual, it's just that when they use this line, it annoys the hell out of me because it implies that LGBT characters cannot act/behave in a certain way/possess certain traits/etc. They have to fit into a box. A comfortable stereotype. It doesn't help that the DA devs said something to this effect as well regarding Inquisition's companions. And what was the result? Knight in Shining armor types once again being exclusively heterosexual. (Disgusted noise)
This is backwards thinking BioWare! Come on now, I thought you guys were trying to move in the right direction! end rant |
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Post by longshadow on Dec 24, 2016 18:52:48 GMT
Seems to me that all the changes we see in the gameplay have to do with only one thing... SP must be identical to MP because they're linked.
I mean, all the changes look like MP limitations or advantages...
- No pause power wheel
- Only 3 active skills
- Can play each session as a different class
- Cannot give specific orders to others
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