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Post by KaiserShep on Jan 15, 2017 20:28:24 GMT
The most logical reason is the Reapers were only created for the Milky Way, with the Milky Way in mind, by species in the Milky Way. it is clear they do not engage in any critical thinking skills and are essentially operating to their programming because if they thought about the logic they used, given the evidence presented in the trilogy, they would determine they were...being stupid. That's why I hate ME3. Because reapers in this part are just stupid machines. And their goal is completely dumb. During first two parts of ME reapers were introduced like thinking beings, a mix of synthetic and organic life. Remember conversation with Sovereign? Did he look like stupid machine? Actually, Sovereign is kinda being a stupid machine right there. The reapers go to great lengths to ensure that their plans aren't discovered, and what does Sovy do? It falls for the villainous exposition trope and gives everything away. Also, when you think about it, hunting down the conduit was kind of pointless, because ultimately Sovereign had to attack the Citadel head-on in the end. Speaking of attacks, Sovereign's assault on Eden Prime would have been most effective if it firebombed it from orbit. But then, if Sovereign actually did the most effective thing, we'd have no game.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Jan 15, 2017 20:59:24 GMT
I love Sovereign's speech too much to rationally dislike that scene but I always kind of felt the same -- he's just a typical powerful bad guy. I still think the moment is amazing because of the revelation that there are so many Reapers and the whole world as we know it is part of their machine.
The arrogant tone of his dialogue always struck me as a bit silly though but I ran with it all the way. I just thought that the idea of Reapers being so larger-than-life that we're just ants that get squashed by them in the Milky Way as part of their routine was way more awe-inspiring than when you learn that Reapers actually originated from the Milky Way in some water-planet where Leviathans built an AI that plays god and is too dumb to realize he's solving a nonexistent problem, and then we have to help him as if Reapers are actually noble, was a twist so bad it ruined the premise of Mass Effect retroactively. It kills the lovecraftian concept about levels of existence where the Reapers are about as advanced in their evolution as humans are to animals. When the Catalyst tells you he's an AI in as much as we are just animals it doesn't feel that convincing. You're still just concerned that he's an insane AI that can't see his own logical fallacy like the terrible writer that wrote his dialogue.
On a high level I think the point the Reapers make narratively in ME1 is to ponder "what happens the further we get out in space" cue lovecraftian horror: the idea that the more we study the realm outside the boundaries of humanity; the cosmos, the more we only discover how indifferent and cruel the world is in a larger perspective and you could take it even further and probably say that there's organics much larger than Reapers somewhere out there that make the Reapers insignificant -- had they left the Reapers unexplained you could even ponder if Reapers harvested us to fight their own life-threatening menace and the story would've been awesome because our story was about us uniting as human-sized and physiological species against an unstoppable larger-than-us force. But instead all we got was a shrinking sense of scope in the end that made everything feel lame.
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Post by missileglitcher on Jan 15, 2017 21:06:04 GMT
The reason is very simple. The retarded writers who gave us the first three games want to deviate as far as possible from the utter trainwreck that is the story of the first three games and anything that had to do with that plot (which is the dumbest plot that has ever been written). Hence no reapers.
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Post by SofaJockey on Jan 15, 2017 21:13:08 GMT
The reason is very simple. The retarded writers who gave us the first three games want to deviate as far as possible from the utter trainwreck that is the story of the first three games and anything that had to do with that plot (which is the dumbest plot that has ever been written). Hence no reapers. You didn't like the Trilogy then?
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Post by missileglitcher on Jan 15, 2017 21:17:03 GMT
The reason is very simple. The retarded writers who gave us the first three games want to deviate as far as possible from the utter trainwreck that is the story of the first three games and anything that had to do with that plot (which is the dumbest plot that has ever been written). Hence no reapers. You didn't like the Trilogy then? Absolutely loved the multiplayer. Played the single player a few years afterwards, for closure, and found out just how bad it is. Worst game ever. But the multiplayer being as good as it is was more than enough for me. I was only ever into it for the multiplayer.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 15, 2017 21:21:46 GMT
Not personally convinced that synthetics would always destroy all organics in the Milky Way. We know peace with the geth is possible. EDI, as well, who if she lives would most likely eventually not be the only one of her kind. The geth and EDI are pretty strong evidence that the Reapers are wrong and simply don't let us have the opportunity to allow things to play out. They harvest all organics before we can find out. For once I'm not actually arguing whether it's a fact or not. I was just being ironic. I caught that. I was more expanding on that idea rather than giving counterpoint.
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Post by SofaJockey on Jan 15, 2017 21:22:13 GMT
You didn't like the Trilogy then? Absolutely loved the multiplayer. Played the single player a few years afterwards, for closure, and found out just how bad it is. Worst game ever. But the multiplayer being as good as it is was more than enough for me. I was only ever into it for the multiplayer. The multiplayer is awesome. Shame you were less impressed by the single player, but mileage varies.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 15, 2017 21:43:23 GMT
AH, but you see the Catalyst explained (and we are supposed to believe it is true) that "inevitably" organic races will advance to the point of creating synthetics that wipe them out. Therefore, one of three things must be true: 1) Andromeda has Reapers or something that functions in a similar manner as the Reapers (periodically wiping out advanced organic life 2) There are no "Reapers" and synthetics have wiped out organic life in Andromeda 3) The Catalyst was wrong, and organic life has had a billion years+ to continue advancing, potentially surpassing even the Leviathans. Leviathan said the same. However, what can actually be concluded is that a) the Leviathans BELIEVED it to be true and the Catalyst was programmed by the Leviathans to believe it is true (and took action based on its programming). None of that makes it true or inevitable. It doesn't mean anyone is lying but it also doesn't mean they're correct. Honestly, from my first trilogy playthrough I saw the arguments as flawed. I believe ME:A is going to end up proving that the Leviathan, the Catalyst and the Reapers were incorrect. Option 3 still isn't a foregone conclusion even without synthetics wiping out organics. Races die. At the rate we're going, the human race is probably going to become extinct. If that happens, it shows that synthetic rebellions are not a requirement for extinction of an organic race.
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Post by Princess Trejo on Jan 15, 2017 21:49:10 GMT
All I can think of is the Khet = Yuuzhan Vong of Andromeda. They wouldn't even understand the concept of mechanical and robotic science.
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Oh, me so scrubby! Me pugging long time! --- 78 URs to go
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Post by DoomsdayDevice on Jan 15, 2017 22:00:58 GMT
" Maybe, but we haven't seen anything like them in real life. Why assume it has to be the case? A species could die or stagnant for any number of reasons that would prevent us from seeing an all-powerful race that controls the entire galaxy. Practically speaking, had the Leviathan not created the Intelligence, perhaps they would have died off. Alternately, they might have expanded into other galaxies (though given that we have about 100 billion stars in the MW, and we've seen nothing to suggest that the Council races are connected to all of them, it seems unlikely). AH, but you see the Catalyst explained (and we are supposed to believe it is true) that "inevitably" organic races will advance to the point of creating synthetics that wipe them out. Therefore, one of three things must be true: 1) Andromeda has Reapers or something that functions in a similar manner as the Reapers (periodically wiping out advanced organic life 2) There are no "Reapers" and synthetics have wiped out organic life in Andromeda 3) The Catalyst was wrong, and organic life has had a billion years+ to continue advancing, potentially surpassing even the Leviathans. Or 4) The "catalyst" was lying. The whole "preservation / inevitability of extinction" story is intended to convince Shepard that they serve an actually important purpose. The Reaper intelligence characterizes the Reapers as just following their programming, so we underestimate them as simple machines. All of this is intended to open Shepard up mentally to "other solutions" than destroying the Reapers. In reality there is no purpose for the harvest other than Reaper reproduction. It simultaneously weeds out the most important organic threats, and so the harvest ensures the Reapers stay the top dogs in the galaxy, and no one can threaten their position of power. You want to know what the Reapers are really like? Listen to Sovereign or Harbinger. Not that lying thing at the end of ME3.
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Origin: ferroboy
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 15, 2017 22:07:11 GMT
I love Sovereign's speech too much to rationally dislike that scene but I always kind of felt the same -- he's just a typical powerful bad guy. I still think the moment is amazing because of the revelation that there are so many Reapers and the whole world as we know it is part of their machine. The arrogant tone of his dialogue always struck me as a bit silly though but I ran with it all the way. I just thought that the idea of Reapers being so larger-than-life that we're just ants that get squashed by them in the Milky Way as part of their routine was way more awe-inspiring than when you learn that Reapers actually originated from the Milky Way in some water-planet where Leviathans built an AI that plays god and is too dumb to realize he's solving a nonexistent problem, and then we have to help him as if Reapers are actually noble, was a twist so bad it ruined the premise of Mass Effect retroactively. It kills the lovecraftian concept about levels of existence where the Reapers are about as advanced in their evolution as humans are to animals. When the Catalyst tells you he's an AI in as much as we are just animals it doesn't feel that convincing. You're still just concerned that he's an insane AI that can't see his own logical fallacy like the terrible writer that wrote his dialogue. The thing I like about Sovereign's dialogue is that it implies that it's organics that are the species that are simply part of the game whereas the Reapers (synthetics, as far as we knew at the time) were more natural. Could a synthetic species evolve with organic intervention? That's the implication I was getting from Sovereign. They weren't a created species but maybe cosmic beings - which is why each was like an independent "nation". It would have been cool to follow that thread, something which perhaps was still in play in ME2. Perhaps the dark energy was going to be the reason the Reapers harvested because they were a cosmic force. However, I can see how that would make them too big of a force to defeat. So they dialed them down a notch and we got something that it was possible to defeat, even if through unconventional means. Obviously, this is all conjecture but I like reading between the lines to come up with something interesting.
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Post by keiji on Jan 15, 2017 22:07:28 GMT
Anyway when you think about it it's doesn't matter since Shepard stopped all the reapers. The Arks goes to Andromeda but while Arks are travelling reapers are stopped and it's all over so no problem here for me.
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Post by Iakus on Jan 15, 2017 22:07:30 GMT
" AH, but you see the Catalyst explained (and we are supposed to believe it is true) that "inevitably" organic races will advance to the point of creating synthetics that wipe them out. Therefore, one of three things must be true: 1) Andromeda has Reapers or something that functions in a similar manner as the Reapers (periodically wiping out advanced organic life 2) There are no "Reapers" and synthetics have wiped out organic life in Andromeda 3) The Catalyst was wrong, and organic life has had a billion years+ to continue advancing, potentially surpassing even the Leviathans. Or 4) The "catalyst" was lying. The whole "preservation / inevitability of extinction" story is intended to convince Shepard that they serve an actually important purpose. The Reaper intelligence characterizes the Reapers as just following their programming, so we underestimate them as simple machines. All of this is intended to open Shepard up mentally to "other solutions" than destroying the Reapers. In reality there is no purpose for the harvest other than Reaper reproduction. It simultaneously weeds out the most important organic threats, and so the harvest ensures the Reapers stay the top dogs in the galaxy, and no one can threaten their position of power. You want to know what the Reapers are really like? Listen to Sovereign or Harbinger. Not that lying thing at the end of ME3. I suppose that's a possibility. But we're clearly supposed to take it as Veritas, given Bioware shrouded themselves in "artistic integrity" over that nonsense and trolled us with Refusal for DARING to call them on their BS
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2017 22:12:57 GMT
"Or 4) The "catalyst" was lying. The whole "preservation / inevitability of extinction" story is intended to convince Shepard that they serve an actually important purpose. The Reaper intelligence characterizes the Reapers as just following their programming, so we underestimate them as simple machines. All of this is intended to open Shepard up mentally to "other solutions" than destroying the Reapers. In reality there is no purpose for the harvest other than Reaper reproduction. It simultaneously weeds out the most important organic threats, and so the harvest ensures the Reapers stay the top dogs in the galaxy, and no one can threaten their position of power. You want to know what the Reapers are really like? Listen to Sovereign or Harbinger. Not that lying thing at the end of ME3. I suppose that's a possibility. But we're clearly supposed to take it as Veritas, given Bioware shrouded themselves in "artistic integrity" over that nonsense and trolled us with Refusal for DARING to call them on their BS Well, whatever it is, I just wish they tell us how organic civilization still exists in the Andromeda galaxy, and doesn't seem that advanced. Maybe the answer is simple, lack of resources. But I wish something more. Maybe just an allusion to the Catalyst being wrong, or something along those lines. As I mentioned before, if they don't at least mention this, or another solution, and assuming the Catalyst was right, every galaxy we visit in this franchise will have to deal with this synthetics vs organics evolution.
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Oh, me so scrubby! Me pugging long time! --- 78 URs to go
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Post by DoomsdayDevice on Jan 15, 2017 22:17:15 GMT
"Or 4) The "catalyst" was lying. The whole "preservation / inevitability of extinction" story is intended to convince Shepard that they serve an actually important purpose. The Reaper intelligence characterizes the Reapers as just following their programming, so we underestimate them as simple machines. All of this is intended to open Shepard up mentally to "other solutions" than destroying the Reapers. In reality there is no purpose for the harvest other than Reaper reproduction. It simultaneously weeds out the most important organic threats, and so the harvest ensures the Reapers stay the top dogs in the galaxy, and no one can threaten their position of power. You want to know what the Reapers are really like? Listen to Sovereign or Harbinger. Not that lying thing at the end of ME3. I suppose that's a possibility. But we're clearly supposed to take it as Veritas, given Bioware shrouded themselves in "artistic integrity" over that nonsense and trolled us with Refusal for DARING to call them on their BS I'm not sure it's all that "clearly". I'm pretty sure they promised us "one more story" though. Haha. Ha. Hah.
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Oh, me so scrubby! Me pugging long time! --- 78 URs to go
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Post by DoomsdayDevice on Jan 15, 2017 22:20:00 GMT
Why are people always assuming the catalyst was right?
In my opinion it's a thousand times more likely that the embodiment of the intelligence of all Reapers is a lying SOAB.
Oh well.
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Post by Iakus on Jan 15, 2017 22:25:04 GMT
Why are people always assuming the catalyst was right? In my opinion it's a thousand times more likely that the embodiment of the intelligence of all Reapers is a lying SOAB. Oh well. The Catalyst is spouting full-on BS. However, it was written to be right. Bioware did not write the Catalyst to lie to us. We are supposed to agree with its ideas and help it find "a new solution" Otherwise, rocks fall, everyone dies.
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Post by hammerstorm on Jan 15, 2017 22:34:56 GMT
Why are people always assuming the catalyst was right? In my opinion it's a thousand times more likely that the embodiment of the intelligence of all Reapers is a lying SOAB. Oh well. The Catalyst is spouting full-on BS. However, it was written to be right. Bioware did not write the Catalyst to lie to us. We are supposed to agree with its ideas and help it find "a new solution" Otherwise, rocks fall, everyone dies. As I see it is was written to believe it was right. Just as TIM believes that he is right and just as the Dalatrass believes she is right.
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Post by Iakus on Jan 15, 2017 22:37:58 GMT
The Catalyst is spouting full-on BS. However, it was written to be right. Bioware did not write the Catalyst to lie to us. We are supposed to agree with its ideas and help it find "a new solution" Otherwise, rocks fall, everyone dies. As I see it is was written to believe it was right. Just as TIM believes that he is right and just as the Dalatrass believes she is right. Particularly with EC, the Catalyst is clearly supposed to be in the right.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: ferroboy
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 15, 2017 22:46:25 GMT
As I see it is was written to believe it was right. Just as TIM believes that he is right and just as the Dalatrass believes she is right. Particularly with EC, the Catalyst is clearly supposed to be in the right. Which is why they definitely had to be destroyed.
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Post by hammerstorm on Jan 15, 2017 22:58:28 GMT
As I see it is was written to believe it was right. Just as TIM believes that he is right and just as the Dalatrass believes she is right. Particularly with EC, the Catalyst is clearly supposed to be in the right. It was some time since i played me3, but how does the EC make it right?
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Post by KaiserShep on Jan 15, 2017 23:14:32 GMT
We actually don't know how advanced the races in Andromeda are and why the Kett aren't dominating the galaxy with an iron fist like the Protheans did in the MW. I would hold on the statement that the Andromeda technology is relatively primitive. Andromeda hasn't had a billion years of cycles of destruction/. Forget the protheans, there should be something like the Leviathans at the height of their power! While it hasn't had the cycles, it's possible spacefaring civilizations haven't been around as long. The milky way did have a few billion years head start.
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Nightlife
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Missing the Milky Way
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Post by Nightlife on Jan 15, 2017 23:16:35 GMT
How do you not know there are any Reapers there? I'd be surprised if we didn't encounter something related to them there, or perhaps an ancient precursor.
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Post by KaiserShep on Jan 15, 2017 23:19:04 GMT
Absolutely loved the multiplayer. Played the single player a few years afterwards, for closure, and found out just how bad it is. Worst game ever. But the multiplayer being as good as it is was more than enough for me. I was only ever into it for the multiplayer. The multiplayer is awesome. Shame you were less impressed by the single player, but mileage varies. I liked multiplayer fine, but I never got what the fuss was about. For me, the best thing about it was finally getting a proper arena for Shepard to train in.
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Post by GannayevOfDreams on Jan 15, 2017 23:19:42 GMT
Because... as a plot device they're stifling. The only thing good to come out of their entire lore was the Mass Relays. Also having such wildly different possible endings to the Reaper's existence would be a pain in the ass to write around. Had they one consistent canonical ending maybe they'd still be relevant.
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