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Post by Darth Dennis on Aug 10, 2016 21:09:13 GMT
I think we can all agree that Kai Leng was stupid and didn't fit in with the whole tone of Mass Effect. Unless, for some reason, you really like emo-nightwing ninjas in serious sci-fi. This article sums it up really well, and makes me laugh too. www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=31743 So what are your thoughts on this..."character"?
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Post by davesin on Aug 11, 2016 8:13:05 GMT
First, I think the reason he did not fit in well was because his character was developed outside of the game, in other media (comics and novels)... This makes it hard for the current audience to make a connection by not having any background beforehand thus going into the game blind. Even with the amount of outside-of-the-game-materials, there's still no reason for Shepard to think of Kai Leng as anything more than... boosted Cerberus Phantom. It's like reading The Masked Empire - as the player and reader, you know who Celene, Gaspard and Briala are, but the Inquisitor knows nothing about them and frankly, why should (s)he help any of them help to ascend the Orleasian throne? They just seem to be equally incompetent. When Bioware use their book characters in games, the non-readers are usually told that: "This character is super important and badass. If you want to know why, read the books/comics." In the actual game, they usually serve as minor antagonists you don't care about. I don't know, Leng might have been better if he was introduced during Mars mission or even better - during ME2. The role he has in ME3 could be easily filled with Dr. Eva (she would just have to survive Mars and EDI wouldn't be a companion).
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Post by Beregond5 on Aug 11, 2016 9:00:57 GMT
Well, my Shepards are goody two-shoes, yet they still take the renegade interrupt to stab him the second it appears.
In all fairness, it looked like he had the potential to be a good character in a love to hate him way. However, unintentionally or not, it feels like they accommodated the story to the character rather than the other way around, which is... not the best way to write a character in an existing universe. It can work, but it doesn't seem to work here. The fact that they have him appear just to obnoxiously get the upper hand because the plot demands it (in scenes where it's painfully clear that, given free reign, Shepard would have floored him) really makes you just hate him.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2016 10:26:59 GMT
Maybe the main issue people have with him is that he's not a romanceable same-sex love interest?
Just think of the possibilities....
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Post by Zemgus on Aug 11, 2016 13:58:29 GMT
Kai Leng was OK. I didn't love or hate him. Maybe because his role in ME3 was relatively small. He was just Illusive Man's lackey. His death scene (renegade interrupt) is pretty good.
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Post by themikefest on Aug 11, 2016 14:20:48 GMT
Kai Leng is just a punk carrying a butter knife.
For a character labelled as an assassin, he failed badly. The moment he lands on the ground, he should've killed the councilor right away. But what does the clown do? He just stands there like he's waiting for takeout or something. Idiot. Had he killed her right away, he would've gotten away before Shepard landed on the floor after jumping out of the window. He would've faced Ashley/Kaidan. They would be dead without having any reaction to defend themselves. He failed his own mission. Idiot
On Thessia, he still carries the idiot ball. He sticks his sword in the ground and throws the asari across the screen. As funny as that is, seeing her turned into a sack of potatoes, he should've killed her. He's an assassin after all. During the fight he cries like a little baby asking his mommy to give him cover fire while he charges up. What a wimp. The whole thing would've been better if he just told the gunship to fire at the supports after TIM and Shepard finish talking.
There was no reason to have Leng in the game. Just have a phantom do the same.
The best thing about the character is his hair
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Post by dalinne on Aug 12, 2016 0:26:58 GMT
(...) The best thing about the character is his hair That and Troy Baker's voice
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2016 0:33:32 GMT
What bothers me about him is he could have been made to be Shepard's equal. He replaced Shepard so he should be just as good or even better and their fight should have been one-on-one like Loghain and the Warden.
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Post by BountyhunterGER on Aug 12, 2016 8:16:20 GMT
(...) The best thing about the character is his hair That and Troy Baker's voice He doesn't deserve that voice.. That's another reason to kill him with renegade interrupt.
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Post by Beregond5 on Aug 12, 2016 8:18:44 GMT
What bothers me about him is he could have been made to be Shepard's equal. He replaced Shepard so he should be just as good or even better and their fight should have been one-on-one like Loghain and the Warden. This so much. I remember the hard time that Alistair and the Warden had with Loghain, even though they were powered up like tanks. So, when it came time for the final confrontation with Kai Leng, I expected to die at least a dozen times before finally taking him down. Instead it went something like: Kai Leng: You're too slow, Shepard! Shepard: *Biotic Charges him* Kai Leng: *Goofy Yell [tm]*
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Post by yan on Aug 12, 2016 12:50:20 GMT
huummm......I thought if we did not use the renegade interrupt, it was game over.
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Post by Beregond5 on Aug 12, 2016 21:25:56 GMT
huummm......I thought if we did not use the renegade interrupt, it was game over. No, Shepard still dodges, you just don't get to smash his sword and make killing him all the sweeter.
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Post by straykat on Aug 12, 2016 21:30:55 GMT
I guess I'm repeating myself, but I think he's just a product of cut content. He was originally better. Kind of what Maya Brooks story became. He was following the VS around, posing as an Alliance rep, egging them on to think you were still with Cerberus. Ash or Kaidan became Spectres in this version of the story and were actively looking for Javik/Prothean relics the same time you were. Shit was supposed to hit the fan because Kai Leng set them against you.
As it is though, he sucks. Instead of sneaky bastard, he just became an arrogant bastard.
This goes without saying, but pretty much every flaw in ME3 is due to a rewrite or cut content.
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Post by bshep on Aug 13, 2016 7:41:07 GMT
I think we can all agree that Kai Leng was stupid and didn't fit in with the whole tone of Mass Effect. Unless, for some reason, you really like emo-nightwing ninjas in serious sci-fi. This article sums it up really well, and makes me laugh too. www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=31743 So what are your thoughts on this..."character"? No "we" can't. Specially just because of one badly written and porly proofreaded (ME Deception). His portrayal in ME3, ME Foundation and ME Retribution as a skilled xenophobic assassin is good.
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Post by fraggle on Aug 13, 2016 8:33:22 GMT
I really liked him in Karpyshyn's book. He could've been so much better in the game, but at least he made me rage, and it was super satisfying to kill him at last
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Post by Beregond5 on Aug 14, 2016 8:20:18 GMT
I really liked him in Karpyshyn's book. He could've been so much better in the game, but at least he made me rage, and it was super satisfying to kill him at last If I may ask, which book was it? I haven't read any of them and I want to check them out.
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Post by fraggle on Aug 14, 2016 8:43:31 GMT
I really liked him in Karpyshyn's book. He could've been so much better in the game, but at least he made me rage, and it was super satisfying to kill him at last If I may ask, which book was it? I haven't read any of them and I want to check them out. It's called Retribution and was my favourite out of the first 3, but they are all really worth a read I think people generally pretend the 4th book didn't happen because it's full of wrong things, so I haven't read it. Don't know if I ever will, haha.
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Post by Beregond5 on Aug 14, 2016 8:47:52 GMT
If I may ask, which book was it? I haven't read any of them and I want to check them out. It's called Retribution and was my favourite out of the first 3, but they are all really worth a read I think people generally pretend the 4th book didn't happen because it's full of wrong things, so I haven't read it. Don't know if I ever will, haha. Awesome, thanks! I've heard about the 4th. Yeah, I think I'll pass on that one, too. XD
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Post by vanilka on Aug 14, 2016 11:38:39 GMT
One of Kai Leng's many problems, in my opinion, is that the game treats him as this ultimate badass that's supposed to be a serious threat on his own, but during the gameplay he's laughable at best and he's always either protected by a massive layer of plot armour or a bunch of minions who do most of the fighting for him and sometimes even both. He spends most fights crying for help to be able to recharge, which he promptly does while his lackeys protect his ass as the game makes him artificially invulnerable during that moment. It's not a completely bad boss fight mechanic, in my opinion, but it's inappropriate for a character that's supposed to kick ass on their own. I remember that during my first playthrough, I threw like three grenades in quick progression when he stopped recharging (on Normal difficulty) which immediately took him out and I thought, "THAT was IT?" Shepard wasn't even done sassing him. During my first playthrough, I died to him exactly 0 times. That's how much trouble Leng causes and how much fighting he actually does in comparison with what he's like in his cutscenes.
Not to even mention that whenever Kai Leng appears, you'd better put your brain into the standby mode because idiocy is bound to happen: Leng not doing his job as an assassin properly. Shepard and co. standing around doing nothing as if the player should forget that they're there. Shepard trying to shoot Leng through the car's front window instead of stepping on the break (to see whether Leng can also fly) or smashing him into the Citadel parts just above. Shepard not shooting at sight despite Leng being notorious troublemaker and an enemy and engaging him in conversation instead. Whenever Leng appears, nonsense happens and the player is punished for it.
Last but not least is that he has a character of a paper cutout. I don't and won't read the books. I've read a bit of the Mass Effect Foundation comics and it does nothing with Kai Leng's character besides giving you the impression he's the biggest drama queen in the ME universe. In the game, there's no reason given for him being the way he is. Compare with Miranda in ME2 who was a fully fleshed out character who had her own personality and her own motivation to work with Cerberus. Kai Leng has no personality besides what I assume his writer, who is unfortunately and obviously so in love with his own creation, perceived as "cool" and "badass". His motivation is, shockingly, "lol, indoctrinated" because writing in something interesting would be too much work. ME2 Miranda had more personality in one of her (surely nicely polished) fingernails. Leng never actually says anything of value and he never produces anything more than one sentence a time consisting of a minimal number of words, mostly supposedly badass one-liners. His embarrassing trollolol email from Thessia, where he accidentally admits he did a lame job trying to deal with Shepard, shows his poor judgement and handling of the situation, and expresses how skilled he thinks Shepard actually is, is the longest piece of thought we've ever got from him. His fighting style doesn't make much sense in the setting he finds himself in. I'd understand a sword or a dagger as a backup weapon in a world of kinetic barriers that serve as protection against projectiles flying at high speeds. (See Tali.) But using a weapon that at all times forces him to close in with an enemy that's gonna be shooting at him, given he doesn't even have the biotic charge or barriers, is pure idiocy, just for the sake of being cool, and the cutscenes have always had to accommodate this for him. Oh, and if you're gonna have a character proficient at martial arts and swordplay, don't forget to make them Asian! Because we've never seen that one before.
All in all, an extremely poorly written, silly character and not as worthy an enemy the game tries to force us to believe he is.
Man, this felt therapeutic.
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Post by Entropy on Aug 14, 2016 20:47:40 GMT
*snip* Not to even mention that whenever Kai Leng appears, you'd better put your brain into the standby mode because idiocy is bound to happen: Leng not doing his job as an assassin properly. Shepard and co. standing around doing nothing as if the player should forget that they're there. Shepard trying to shoot Leng through the car's front window instead of stepping on the break (to see whether Leng can also fly) or smashing him into the Citadel parts just above. Shepard not shooting at sight despite Leng being notorious troublemaker and an enemy and engaging him in conversation instead. Whenever Leng appears, nonsense happens and the player is punished for it. *snip* QFT Let's not forget that Thane gives him quite the beating. You can't call badass a character owned by a dying man...
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Post by themikefest on Aug 14, 2016 21:21:26 GMT
QFT Let's not forget that Thane gives him quite the beating. Beating? All he did was knock the ponytail to the ground and then showed the player what not to do when playing chicken. It never should of gotten that far if Thane shot Leng right away when he had the pistol at Leng's head. The other thing is when Thane says,"That assassin should be embarassed that a terminally ill Drell stopped him', I wanted a renegade interrupt for Shepard to say, "Had you shot the guy when you had the chance, you might not be here on your deathbed." Shepard turns around and leaves .
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Post by bshep on Aug 14, 2016 21:32:47 GMT
I dont think using gameplay mechanics to bash a character is right.
If we use this reasoning then Saren was also really bad because he just hovers slowly a few meters from the ground and becomes a really easy target during his boss fight on Virmire.
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Post by vanilka on Aug 14, 2016 21:35:26 GMT
QFT Let's not forget that Thane gives him quite the beating. Beating? All he did was knock the ponytail to the ground and then showed the player what not to do when playing chicken. It never should of gotten that far if Thane shot Leng right away when he had the pistol at Leng's head. The other thing is when Thane says,"That assassin should be embarassed that a terminally ill Drell stopped him', I wanted a renegade interrupt for Shepard to say, "Had you shot the guy when you had the chance, you might not be here on your deathbed." Shepard turns around and leaves . Yet another victim of Kai Leng's plot armour. I'd say it was pretty out of character for Thane.
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Post by SalMasRac on Aug 14, 2016 21:47:24 GMT
I think I would rather just have the real Nightwing in that scene.
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Post by vanilka on Aug 14, 2016 21:59:00 GMT
I dont think using gameplay mechanics to bash a character is right. If we use this reasoning then Saren was also really bad because he just hovers slowly a few meters from the ground and becomes a really easy target during his boss fight on Virmire. Good point. The thing is, though, that the game never presents Saren the way it presents Kai Leng. Kai Leng is always unbeatable and untouchable in cutscenes, until the game so kindly decides it's time the player is allowed to kill him, while during the gameplay he fully relies on his backup and can't fight without it because he recharges all the time (which again never happens in his cutscenes). I normally believe in gameplay and story segregation, but this is jarring. Saren isn't presented this way. The game shows he's powerful, but also allows Shepard to be a thorn in his side, cutscenes or not, and the way he fights during the gameplay isn't dramatically different from what we're shown in the cutscenes.
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