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Post by SalMasRac on Aug 14, 2016 22:03:59 GMT
I did read the first 3 books so I thought he was "just okay", but you shouldn't have to refer to outside material just to understand something within whatever material you are currently engaged in.
And that said, the article posted was a bit long-winded, but I concur.
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Post by bshep on Aug 14, 2016 22:07:11 GMT
But you also said you have no interest in reading the books and Kai Leng was primarily a book character who gained a participation on ME3 (and later the comics Mass Effect Foundation, also as a side char). He was diferent from Saren or Illusive Man who made the reverse way (from Games to books/comics). Hence most of his characterization will be lost in you don't read Mass Effect Retribuition. ps: I am not counting Deception because that book has so many canonical problems even the editors at Mass Effect Wikia complained about it.
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Post by saberchic on Aug 15, 2016 1:10:28 GMT
What bothers me about him is he could have been made to be Shepard's equal. He replaced Shepard so he should be just as good or even better and their fight should have been one-on-one like Loghain and the Warden. Agreed. There was so much wasted potential. Instead he was just a tool for TIM--and not a very good one. He was not implemented well at all.
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Post by bshep on Aug 15, 2016 2:09:11 GMT
I agree there were some problems (that Thane X Kai Leng fight was badly done) but even on the books he was just a tool for TIM.
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Post by Zemgus on Aug 15, 2016 9:00:40 GMT
What bothers me about him is he could have been made to be Shepard's equal. He replaced Shepard so he should be just as good or even better and their fight should have been one-on-one like Loghain and the Warden. Illusive Mans mistake was to let Shepard go. Obviously Kai Leng's no match for him. That's why he has to resort to dirty tactics. It annoys me how TIM in ME3 goes on and on about how Shepard wants to destroy the Reapers instead of trying to see that there are other ways to end this war - and he says this even if Shepard let him have the Collector Base. Well what if Shepard actually agreed with TIM from the start and thought that the idea of controlling the Reapers is not a bad one? Again, the game tells us what Shepard thinks and feels - instead of giving us the right to decide what he feels or thinks. Too many instances like that in the original trilogy. I hope they do better with Ryder in MEA.
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Post by Entropy on Aug 15, 2016 12:17:22 GMT
QFT Let's not forget that Thane gives him quite the beating. Beating? All he did was knock the ponytail to the ground and then showed the player what not to do when playing chicken. It never should of gotten that far if Thane shot Leng right away when he had the pistol at Leng's head. The other thing is when Thane says,"That assassin should be embarassed that a terminally ill Drell stopped him', I wanted a renegade interrupt for Shepard to say, "Had you shot the guy when you had the chance, you might not be here on your deathbed." Shepard turns around and leaves . Ok, I didn't express myself properly. Beating is not the right word, but Thane did stop Kai Leng and yes he could have killed him. I remember screaming at the screen "What the fuck Thane! Blow his head! Shoot!" but nope, Bioware needed to get rid of Thane so they made a trained assassin have second thoughts about shooting someone, that way Thane could leave this world after a super-ninja fight worthy of praise!
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Post by vanilka on Aug 15, 2016 15:13:35 GMT
But you also said you have no interest in reading the books and Kai Leng was primarily a book character who gained a participation on ME3 (and later the comics Mass Effect Foundation, also as a side char). He was diferent from Saren or Illusive Man who made the reverse way (from Games to books/comics). Hence most of his characterization will be lost in you don't read Mass Effect Retribuition. ps: I am not counting Deception because that book has so many canonical problems even the editors at Mass Effect Wikia complained about it. I'm not sure if that's a response to me, but judging from the "But you also said you have no interest in reading the books," I'd think so. The thing is that relying on the player reading the books is not good writing, in my opinion. The games are supposed to be standalone experiences, working on their own. You shouldn't need to refer to external material to find a video game character decent or understand their motivation. They can't expect every player to pick up their books. Not everybody knows those even exist. Not everybody actually wants to read them. (I'd like to see a survey of how many ME players have read them, because I have a feeling it wouldn't be the majority.) I like reading well enough, but I'm with BioWare for their video games and I don't care about their literature awfully much. I'd compare this situation to making a movie with shallow and half-assed characters and then telling people that they should buy and read the books to enjoy them better. That's something you simply don't do if you care about producing high quality stuff. (Somebody in this thread mentioned Kai Leng might be the result of a lot of cut content which would make sense.) I'm not saying that Kai Leng couldn't be a good character if you put together all the material. I believe you when you say he's better with the books. What I'm saying is he's not good in the game itself. And if the game is your only experience with him, then he'll come across as an extremely poorly written character for most. That shouldn't happen, in my opinion, regardless of how many books he might appear in.
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Post by vanilka on Aug 15, 2016 15:17:19 GMT
Beating? All he did was knock the ponytail to the ground and then showed the player what not to do when playing chicken. It never should of gotten that far if Thane shot Leng right away when he had the pistol at Leng's head. The other thing is when Thane says,"That assassin should be embarassed that a terminally ill Drell stopped him', I wanted a renegade interrupt for Shepard to say, "Had you shot the guy when you had the chance, you might not be here on your deathbed." Shepard turns around and leaves . Ok, I didn't express myself properly. Beating is not the right word, but Thane did stop Kai Leng and yes he could have killed him. I remember screaming at the screen "What the fuck Thane! Blow his head! Shoot!" but nope, Bioware needed to get rid of Thane so they made a trained assassin have second thoughts about shooting someone, that way Thane could leave this world after a super-ninja fight worthy of praise! Not to even mention that Shepard and co. just stand there and watch.
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Post by natureguy85 on Aug 15, 2016 21:18:15 GMT
Kai Leng sucks and is used to troll the player. He's just another Author Avatar screwing with you because they think Cerberus is so great. As stupid as the set-up was, stabbing him in the gut was tremendously satisfying.
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Post by vanilka on Aug 16, 2016 14:50:17 GMT
That cutscene is one of the first things I ever gif'd once I'd learnt how to do that. BOOMSHAKALAKA!
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Post by davesin on Aug 16, 2016 16:53:15 GMT
That cutscene is one of the first things I ever gif'd once I'd learnt how to do that. BOOMSHAKALAKA! That omni-blade is an insult to all Vanguards and Adepts who wanted to smash Leng's head with pure biotic force. Damn you, you... red cheese cutter!
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Post by vanilka on Aug 16, 2016 17:20:15 GMT
That cutscene is one of the first things I ever gif'd once I'd learnt how to do that. BOOMSHAKALAKA! That omni-blade is an insult to all Vanguards and Adepts who wanted to smash Leng's head with pure biotic force. Damn you, you... red cheese cutter! I guess it's good that I happen to love blades of all kinds regardless of class. Then again, it is lame how every class besides the Soldier got screwed over in the cutscenes. Hell, it even bothers me, despite rolling the Soldier a lot. Never had anything against the Predator and Avenger until ME3. I carry five heavily modded guns + blade, game, I don't need to pull another weapon out of my... y'know... thin air. Yay for almost never showing your weapon and fighting style of choice in a game with RP options and customisable protag.
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Post by BansheeOwnage on Aug 16, 2016 18:57:05 GMT
*snip* His fighting style doesn't make much sense in the setting he finds himself in. I'd understand a sword or a dagger as a backup weapon in a world of kinetic barriers that serve as protection against projectiles flying at high speeds. (See Tali.) But using a weapon that at all times forces him to close in with an enemy that's gonna be shooting at him, given he doesn't even have the biotic charge or barriers, is pure idiocy, just for the sake of being cool, and the cutscenes have always had to accommodate this for him. Oh, and if you're gonna have a character proficient at martial arts and swordplay, don't forget to make them Asian! Because we've never seen that one before. All in all, an extremely poorly written, silly character and not as worthy an enemy the game tries to force us to believe he is. Man, this felt therapeutic. I agree with most of your post, but I think using a sword in a world with shields is actually not a stupid idea. If your enemy is using projectile weapons, you still have the advantage of your barriers while the enemy does not. Also consider that he doesn't usually end up in large firefights, and Leng does have his palm-blasters for range. Have you ever used the N7 Slayer in MP? Basically a Kai Leng class But this all gets muddy because of gameplay-story segregation, not knowing how much is actually being segregated, and also an odd combination of Cutscene Incompetence and Cutscene Power To The Max. Sometimes characters are totally dumb in cutscenes, and sometimes they're much more effective than in gameplay. Both happen in ME, especially 3, and it's quite annoying. All Biotics should have barriers, but Kai Leng doesn't in gameplay. Lore-wise, I think Biotics would use normal kinetic barriers as well as their own biotic ones. This just isn't reflected in gameplay, usually for balancing reasons. I mean, it makes Biotics much scarier. They can have you deplete their shields, then use their biotics to block damage while their shields recharge! They'd be near-invulnerable. Anyway, here's hoping there is as little Cutscene Incompetence as possible in the next Bioware games. It's infuriating to see our main characters be so stupid
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Post by BansheeOwnage on Aug 16, 2016 19:08:02 GMT
Agreed. There was so much wasted potential. Instead he was just a tool for TIM--and not a very good one. He was not implemented well at all. The funny thing is he's basically acknowledged to not be very good in-game. Even The Illusive Man just says "We'll see" when Leng states they'll beat Shep Illusive Mans mistake was to let Shepard go. Obviously Kai Leng's no match for him. That's why he has to resort to dirty tactics. It annoys me how TIM in ME3 goes on and on about how Shepard wants to destroy the Reapers instead of trying to see that there are other ways to end this war - and he says this even if Shepard let him have the Collector Base. Well what if Shepard actually agreed with TIM from the start and thought that the idea of controlling the Reapers is not a bad one? Again, the game tells us what Shepard thinks and feels - instead of giving us the right to decide what he feels or thinks. Too many instances like that in the original trilogy. I hope they do better with Ryder in MEA.Shepard didn't think it was a good idea because it's so blatantly not a good idea. That cutscene is one of the first things I ever gif'd once I'd learnt how to do that. BOOMSHAKALAKA! Nice! I always wanted to make a gif of this, but never did. I guess it's good that I happen to love blades of all kinds regardless of class. Then again, it is lame how every class besides the Soldier got screwed over in the cutscenes. Hell, it even bothers me, despite rolling the Soldier a lot. Never had anything against the Predator and Avenger until ME3. I carry five heavily modded guns + blade, game, I don't need to pull another weapon out of my... y'know... thin air. Yay for almost never showing your weapon and fighting style of choice in a game with RP options and customisable protag.That is fairly disappointing. It would be nice if more cutscene stuff reflected your inventory and class. It's jarring to have your character pull out a weapon from thin air they didn't have. And there is only one class-specific interrupt in the entire trilogy, and it's in a DLC, for one class (And the least played class ) But I wouldn't say every class but Soldier got screwed over per se, since all classes have omni-tools and therefore omni-blades, so it does at least make sense. Makes me sad that no one besides Sentinel can use two of them though
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Post by Zemgus on Aug 16, 2016 19:15:16 GMT
Illusive Mans mistake was to let Shepard go. Obviously Kai Leng's no match for him. That's why he has to resort to dirty tactics. It annoys me how TIM in ME3 goes on and on about how Shepard wants to destroy the Reapers instead of trying to see that there are other ways to end this war - and he says this even if Shepard let him have the Collector Base. Well what if Shepard actually agreed with TIM from the start and thought that the idea of controlling the Reapers is not a bad one? Again, the game tells us what Shepard thinks and feels - instead of giving us the right to decide what he feels or thinks. Too many instances like that in the original trilogy. I hope they do better with Ryder in MEA.Shepard didn't think it was a good idea because it's so blatantly not a good idea. They should let the player decide whether Shepard thinks it's a good idea or not.
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Post by bshep on Aug 16, 2016 20:09:51 GMT
That cutscene is one of the first things I ever gif'd once I'd learnt how to do that. BOOMSHAKALAKA! That omni-blade is an insult to all Vanguards and Adepts who wanted to smash Leng's head with pure biotic force. Damn you, you... red cheese cutter! I love that scene but i agree, as a vanguard player it would have be amazing to smash him with pure biotic power. (It's a nice thing that Bioware remembered this during Citadel DLC).
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2016 20:13:37 GMT
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Post by vanilka on Aug 16, 2016 20:20:47 GMT
*snip* His fighting style doesn't make much sense in the setting he finds himself in. I'd understand a sword or a dagger as a backup weapon in a world of kinetic barriers that serve as protection against projectiles flying at high speeds. (See Tali.) But using a weapon that at all times forces him to close in with an enemy that's gonna be shooting at him, given he doesn't even have the biotic charge or barriers, is pure idiocy, just for the sake of being cool, and the cutscenes have always had to accommodate this for him. Oh, and if you're gonna have a character proficient at martial arts and swordplay, don't forget to make them Asian! Because we've never seen that one before. All in all, an extremely poorly written, silly character and not as worthy an enemy the game tries to force us to believe he is. Man, this felt therapeutic. I agree with most of your post, but I think using a sword in a world with shields is actually not a stupid idea. If your enemy is using projectile weapons, you still have the advantage of your barriers while the enemy does not. Also consider that he doesn't usually end up in large firefights, and Leng does have his palm-blasters for range. Have you ever used the N7 Slayer in MP? Basically a Kai Leng class But this all gets muddy because of gameplay-story segregation, not knowing how much is actually being segregated, and also an odd combination of Cutscene Incompetence and Cutscene Power To The Max. Sometimes characters are totally dumb in cutscenes, and sometimes they're much more effective than in gameplay. Both happen in ME, especially 3, and it's quite annoying. Because all Biotics should have barriers, but Kai Leng doesn't in gameplay. Lore-wise, I think Biotics would use normal kinetic barriers as well as their own biotic ones. This just isn't reflected in gameplay, usually for balancing reasons. I mean, it makes Biotics much scarier. They can have you deplete their shields, then use their biotics to block damage while their shields recharge! They'd be near-invulnerable. Anyway, here's hoping there is as little Cutscene Incompetence as possible in the next Bioware games. It's infuriating to see our main characters be so stupid Indeed, which is why I said I'd get it because kinetic barriers serve as protection against projectiles flying at high speeds, e.g. bullets, not blades. Although we know that gameplay is quite different - shields serve as protection against e.g. getting bitch-slapped by brutes, as well. My point was that he has to get close to the enemy first at all times, enemy that's going be pretty actively trying to get rid of his shields, and he'll have to stay there the entire time. Some characters have tech skills that can overload shields from distance. This fighting style also doesn't take into account that some characters might (shoot at Leng first and) punch him in the face when he gets close, like Vanguards, who even have better mobility than him. Good luck to him trying to melee a krogan, too. I don't have much of an issue with the sword as much as the fact it's his only weapon. He doesn't even have a backup pistol because he's too cool for that. Do we even see him use the things on his palms as blasters? I only remember him blocking bullets with it. Kai Leng also isn't a biotic, as far as I know, is he? He never uses biotics in any shape or form. His fancy tech looks pretty deceiving, though. (I admit I haven't used the N7 Slayer in MP because MP'd require social interaction during gameplay and... meh. I'm more of an SP player, either way. So I've just solo'd for a bit to see what it's like and thus I don't even have that class unlocked.) Either way, though, I agree there's just too big a difference between what certain characters can do in cutscenes and what they can do in gameplay. I think it's most visible and jarring with Leng. Then there are characters whose shields, barriers and armour magically don't exist in cutscenes when the writers need them shot. Then there are characters behaving nonsensically and incompetently for the sake of cheap drama. Etc. As you say, it is rather infuriating.
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Post by bshep on Aug 16, 2016 21:02:16 GMT
His legs have cybernetics enhancers because Anderson pretty much blast them away with a shotgun. But i have to agree it's weird that he doesn't have a long range weapon.
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Post by SaikyoMcRyu on Aug 16, 2016 21:23:30 GMT
I really liked him in Karpyshyn's book. He could've been so much better in the game, but at least he made me rage, and it was super satisfying to kill him at last Ugh, after Karpyshyn's Revan book I'm terrified to touch any book he's written. Drew is quite good at writing video games. Books? Well, let's just say he makes some of the crappier Dragonlance writers look like geniuses whose talent shames Shakespeare, Chaucer, and Dante.
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Post by SaikyoMcRyu on Aug 16, 2016 21:30:24 GMT
I think we can all agree that Kai Leng was stupid and didn't fit in with the whole tone of Mass Effect. Unless, for some reason, you really like emo-nightwing ninjas in serious sci-fi. This article sums it up really well, and makes me laugh too. www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=31743 So what are your thoughts on this..."character"? Hear, hear. It happens that I read all of Shamus Young's Mass Effect Retrospective (of which the Kai Leng post is a part) a few months ago and I think it is a brilliantly written analysis of everything that was good (and bad) about Mass Effect 1 and how BioWare's schismatic writing team tore the universe carefully built in ME1 to pieces in ME2 and ME3. He does give credit where credit is due, especially when distinguishing between the excellent loyalty missions of ME2 and the goofy main story, and succinctly nails down how the ending ended up being the catastrophe that it was.
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Post by o Ventus on Aug 18, 2016 20:45:35 GMT
I think we can all agree that Kai Leng was stupid and didn't fit in with the whole tone of Mass Effect. Unless, for some reason, you really like emo-nightwing ninjas in serious sci-fi. This article sums it up really well, and makes me laugh too. www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=31743 So what are your thoughts on this..."character"? Kai Leng was kinda cool in his book appearances, before his game introduction in ME3. From that point on though, he went nowhere but downhill.
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Post by opuspace on Aug 20, 2016 18:50:24 GMT
Instead it went something like: Kai Leng: You're too slow, Shepard! Shepard: *Biotic Charges him* Kai Leng: *Goofy Yell [tm]* If there was one class interrupt I wished for the Vanguard, it'd be a literal one in a cutscene with Kai Leng. "Sorry, what was that about me being slow? I couldn't hear you over the sound of your ribs breaking." Now for an Infiltrator's comeback to him...
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Beregond5
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Jade Empire
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Post by Beregond5 on Aug 20, 2016 20:40:51 GMT
If there was one class interrupt I wished for the Vanguard, it'd be a literal one in a cutscene with Kai Leng. "Sorry, what was that about me being slow? I couldn't hear you over the sound of your ribs breaking." Now for an Infiltrator's comeback to him... Oh, loved this! Hmm... Infiltrator could be: Shepard: *activates Tactical Cloak, then Marksman* Dodge this. *BLAM!*
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2016 15:33:26 GMT
I guess I'm repeating myself, but I think he's just a product of cut content. He was originally better. Kind of what Maya Brooks story became. He was following the VS around, posing as an Alliance rep, egging them on to think you were still with Cerberus. Ash or Kaidan became Spectres in this version of the story and were actively looking for Javik/Prothean relics the same time you were. Shit was supposed to hit the fan because Kai Leng set them against you. As it is though, he sucks. Instead of sneaky bastard, he just became an arrogant bastard. This goes without saying, but pretty much every flaw in ME3 is due to a rewrite or cut content. Point blank. PERIOD. The original script had this man as a velociraptor chasing a deer. It was far closer to how DK wrote him in Retribution but like many things in ME3 wound up being closer to Derpception.
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