Sanunes
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Just a flip of the coin.
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Post by Sanunes on Feb 4, 2017 13:48:34 GMT
Its hard for me to worry about a new BioWare game based on past games since they seem to make a lot of changes between games, even in the same franchise. To me very little of their games have overlap going back to Jade Empire and beyond unless you look at generalities.
Since we are dissecting the problems we had with Inquisition, my biggest problem with the game was how they tried to make the game for everybody instead of having a focus which is what made other games better. I can't remember who, but it was announced that "Dragon Age: Inquisition could only take 30 hours to play or 100 hours to play", that was a warning side because to me that meant 70 hours of gameplay would not be connected to the critical mission plot because they wouldn't want to upset people that only wanted to play 30 hours.
As far as what happened to the game because of Crestwood and other content that felt like it was cut out, I still firmly believe that happened when they realized they couldn't get what they had planned for the game to work on the older consoles and be like Shadow of Mordor where there were two different experiences based on what console you were playing on. Considering how upset people were when Tresspasser wasn't on the older consoles, I could see a lot worse then people being upset at missing DLC when the new consoles and PC got the original Crestwood and they didn't.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2017 14:18:52 GMT
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lastpawn
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Post by lastpawn on Feb 4, 2017 14:29:25 GMT
I agree that Bioware has steadily improved certain dimensions of their games. Not all. ME1 had large hubs, ME2 had linear minimaps. I guess you could argue that's an improvement, but I don't see it.
Disagree strongly with ME2 "vastly improving" on choice text matching what's said, as compared to ME1.
Text: "I'll never work for Cerberus!" What Shepard actually says: "Yeah, OK, I'll work for Cerberus."
Also possibly disagree with ME2 having "amazing side content." I mean, if you're talking about loyalty missions, then yeah I'd agree that for "side content" those are amazing. But if you're talking about "N7: MSV Estevanico" then no... no.
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Post by Sanunes on Feb 4, 2017 14:31:07 GMT
I agree that Bioware has steadily improved certain dimensions of their games. Not all. ME1 had large hubs, ME2 had linear minimaps. I guess you could argue that's an improvement, but I don't see it. Disagree strongly with ME2 "vastly improving" on choice text matching what's said, as compared to ME1. Text: "I'll never work for Cerberus!" What Shepard actually says: "Yeah, OK, I'll work for Cerberus." Also possibly disagree with ME2 having "amazing side content." I mean, if you're talking about loyalty missions, then yeah I'd agree that for "side content" those are amazing. But if you're talking about "N7: MSV Estevanico" then no... no. I agree about the side content in Mass Effect 2. Characters and their loyalty missions felt like the primary focus of the game which having three or four larger missions to try and have an overarching story.
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Post by jagaro on Feb 4, 2017 14:34:49 GMT
I had the most trouble enjoying Inquisiton out of all the Bioware games I've played and it was for technical reasons.
I got it on PC because up to that point I played all the Bioware games on PC. But the game was so poorly optimized it ran like crap and the stuttering that occurred during cutscenes really ruined those special moments. I was only able to truly enjoy the Trespasser dlc.
Because of all that, I'll be playing Andromeda on PS4.
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Post by mrfixit on Feb 4, 2017 14:55:49 GMT
I agree that Bioware has steadily improved certain dimensions of their games. Not all. ME1 had large hubs, ME2 had linear minimaps. I guess you could argue that's an improvement, but I don't see it. Disagree strongly with ME2 "vastly improving" on choice text matching what's said, as compared to ME1. Text: "I'll never work for Cerberus!" What Shepard actually says: "Yeah, OK, I'll work for Cerberus." Also possibly disagree with ME2 having "amazing side content." I mean, if you're talking about loyalty missions, then yeah I'd agree that for "side content" those are amazing. But if you're talking about "N7: MSV Estevanico" then no... no. ME2 loyalty missions are actually a very good example of how to make side content relevant and fun. They are completely optional, yet don't feel inconsequential in the slightest. Beside having obvious endgame impact, loyalty missions provide great character insight (and I think we can all agree that characters are a crucial part of BioWare games) and shouldn't be overlooked for their worldbuilding: Tuchanka, Migrant Fleet, etc. N7 missions are the true "tertiary" optional stuff, but they are, what, 10-ish very short missions that can be completed in under 10 minutes out of 30+ total missions in ME2. They are too few and too short to be a nuisance even if you don't like them. And frankly, I did like them because they were fun little diversions. Some were just an excuse to shoot things up while some had a fun gimmick like going around Estevanico (hey, I liked it!) I'd say that to this day ME2 is BioWare's best effort at integrating critical path with secondary and tertiary "optional" material. Though even I would agree that it needed at least one more Collector mission after the Collector ship and before the endgame for pacing reasons. If you want to complete everything and not lose your crew, there's a LONG time between those two missions. If I remember correctly, you do 4 recruitments before Horizon, then another 5-ish missions before Collector ship and then everything else before Derelict Reaper. That's a lot of stuff that kinda messes up the pacing a bit.
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Post by lastpawn on Feb 4, 2017 15:09:04 GMT
Also possibly disagree with ME2 having "amazing side content." I mean, if you're talking about loyalty missions, then yeah I'd agree that for "side content" those are amazing. But if you're talking about "N7: MSV Estevanico" then no... no. ME2 loyalty missions are actually a very good example of how to make side content relevant and fun. They are completely optional, yet don't feel inconsequential in the slightest. Beside having obvious endgame impact, loyalty missions provide great character insight (and I think we can all agree that characters are a crucial part of BioWare games) and shouldn't be overlooked for their worldbuilding: Tuchanka, Migrant Fleet, etc. N7 missions are the true "tertiary" optional stuff, but they are, what, 10-ish very short missions that can be completed in under 10 minutes out of 30+ total missions in ME2. They are too few and too short to be a nuisance even if you don't like them. And frankly, I did like them because they were fun little diversions. Some were just an excuse to shoot things up while some had a fun gimmick like going around Estevanico (hey, I liked it!) I'd say that to this day ME2 is BioWare's best effort at integrating critical path with secondary and tertiary "optional" material. Though even I would agree that it needed at least one more Collector mission after the Collector ship and before the endgame for pacing reasons. If you want to complete everything and not lose your crew, there's a LONG time between those two missions. If I remember correctly, you do 4 recruitments before Horizon, then another 5-ish missions before Collector ship and then everything else before Derelict Reaper. That's a lot of stuff that kinda messes up the pacing a bit. Just as a reminder, N7: MSV Estevanico was the mission where a shuttle drops you off on one end of a ship hanging off a ledge so you could run to the other end of the ship and get picked up by the shuttle there. That's the mission. Of course, the shuttle could have just flown you to the other end of the ship. But then it wouldn't be a mission. You're of course welcome to like that, I thought it was a complete waste of my time. I do mostly agree about loyalty missions being well utilized, especially Tali and Legion's. Not all were of this quality (Jacob's "rapist father" mission stands out). Anyway, the bigger issue in ME2 was that the main plot ("critical path") was really just a thin excuse for filling a roster with colorful characters.
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Post by sinkingfish on Feb 4, 2017 15:21:06 GMT
But at their core they were all either fetch quests, combat quests or puzzle quests. Something every RPG has done since the dawn of video games. I'm not arguing that The Witcher wasnt a good game, but you need to stop making out that the wheel has been re-invented. it hasnt its just been painted a different colour. None are fetch quests - they have an interesting story to them, different outcomes and in general are more satisfying - that's what I'm saying. They were beefy, with several steps as well. Towerful of Mice questline. Help Anabelle- You can agree to help Anabelle by taking her remains to her loved one, Graham. Grab her bones and sail to the nearby fishing village. Go into Graham’s house and leave the remains with him. As it turns out, Anabelle is a Plague Maiden, who are only at peace when they have their revenge. When you hear a scream from Graham’s hut, you may go back and see the cost of lifting the curse. Now ride back and talk to Keira. The parts I have highlighted indicate a fetch quest. Carrying something to someone or somewhere else. The definition of a fetch quest. A princess in Distress The Pellar is weird and talks in third person, but he does seem to know something about the baron’s wife and daughter. Unfortunately, the guards scared off his pet goat, Princess. He won’t be able to help you without his goat. He gives you her favorite bell and asks you to find her. <<< Fetch quest. Of Dairy and Darkness These statues and cheeses together form a maze that Geralt needs to navigate in order to open the next portal at the other side of the cavern. Puzzle quest. So you see these are the exact same types of quests that were present in Inquisition and yet because they were dressed up differently or "painted a different colour" you choose to hate on Inquisiton? And lets not forget the arsonist quest RIGHT AT THE START OF THE GAME.... I rest my case.
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Post by mrfixit on Feb 4, 2017 15:30:17 GMT
Just as a reminder, N7: MSV Estevanico was the mission where a shuttle drops you off on one end of a ship hanging off a ledge so you could run to the other end of the ship and get picked up by the shuttle there. That's the mission. Of course, the shuttle could have just flown you to the other end of the ship. But then it wouldn't be a mission. You're of course welcome to like that, I thought it was a complete waste of my time. I do mostly agree about loyalty missions being well utilized, especially Tali and Legion's. Not all were of this quality (Jacob's "rapist father" mission stands out). Anyway, the bigger issue in ME2 was that the main plot ("critical path") was really just a thin excuse for filling a roster with colorful characters. I know which mission it was. It's just a 5 minute walk with a nice vista. It's harmless like most N7 missions. Had it been DA:I, it would be a three-hour walk before pushing a button at the end.
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Post by derrame on Feb 4, 2017 15:43:38 GMT
my main concern is that MEA is indeed DAI in space, exploration is walking across large boring maps to cllect shards, materials, info, etc and it takes too long and it's boring, and that is 90% of the game, that is what i'm worried about but i try to be optimistic, and i hpe this game is focues on story, like ME1 and ME2, and with bigger maps filld with lot of interesting and fun content, ther is very few info or gameplay videos on the actual gam, so it's hard to know what hides within this new galaxy...
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Post by dropzofcrimzon on Feb 4, 2017 15:48:44 GMT
I somewhat believe that if Andromeda is sort of Inquisiton in space that it would make use of some of the cut content from Inquisition. Specifically the so called outposts that were supposed to focus on trade, war and diplomacy. I hope it's true so we can finally see those things get properly used. That's probably why Inquisiton felt shallow in areas because a number of things were cut. I doubt it. And the reason is DA I was supposed to be a giant war story. Cameron Lee himself in a tweet a rather long time ago bemoaned some of the stuff that they weren't able to do as much of this war sim and kind of lead your Army, as the Inquisitor, real time. But the reason why I doubt it, other then they sort of failed with Inquisition, is that MEA is not a war story. Its an exploration story. Sure there will be fighting, sure there will be enemy bases and stuff you might be able to capture, but at the end of the day you are SUPPOSED to seek out new life and new civilizations. Which, I hope hope hope, BioWare does more in the way of diplomatic solutions to problems and maybe even some of the main plot points of the game rather then go through and shoot everything up. I don't think all games need to go open world to be necessarily better. That said, Dragon Age Inquisition is my favorite Bioware game so far, by far! I know a lot of people may hate some aspects of it, and I can understand that. With that in mind, I believe that until today, open world games have suffered a seemingly inescapable problem: they become boring after a while. With all the sidequests around, you would have to go from one ass end of the map to another to solve a quest, return the husband's ring to a wife here, recover a cat from someone else there, find missing soldiers, destroy a group of bandits. This would happen a lot, in all the maps. I'm looking forward so much to Horizon Zero Dawn, but I think it will suffer this same problem. I don't think Andromeda will suffer from this as much. As you said, colfoley, if there's one thing Bioware is always doing is experiment, sometimes it doesn't work for some of us, other times they do. But, it's my opinion that they never failed to deliver a better gameplay experience than previous titles, that held true for me so far, and since MEA seems to be taking DAI formula of world exploration, I do believe it will be better than last time. On that end, I'm not worried. I know, again I loved Witcher 3, but honestly if they did not give us a NG + I probably would be a lot less inclined to replay it because its such a grind. Hell I still have not replayed it. BioWare keeps sucking me in, but I hope to get to a second PT sometime after MEA comes out. once you max out your perfect build in MEA and grinding is non existent then the sandbox is fully open to you and replaying the game becomes a joy...it was the same with ME1 2 and 3...take it from a guy who played ME1 some two dozen times in consecutive NG+
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Post by Cyberstrike on Feb 4, 2017 21:43:06 GMT
Frankly as long as BioWare doesn't have a lot of those pointless 6+ hour in real time War Table operations in ME:A, I would rather do 1000 silly fetch quests over waiting 6+ hours (and trying to get those damn thing set up so they could be ran overnight and in some cases that was next to impossible).
Those damn things in DA:I made me want to play the game less I probably spent more time watching 3 hour movies and binge watching TV shows than actually playing the game and then to top it off those damn things offered very little in rewards for example Send a Letter to the Warden operation was a waste of a day all you get is a letter from the Warden, a bit of dialogue from either Leliana or Morrigan, and a useless belt. Which felt like a huge waste of time.
BioWare could have the Warden send me the Starfang sword, the Blood Dragon Armor or at the very least schematics and the materials for a new Starfang weapon and the Blood Dragon Armor, or even a cutscene showing a dog running towards a fully armor clad human/elf/dwarf somewhere with a message, the Warden taking the message and writing a reply and sending the dog back with a letter and supplies. That would have at least made the operation feel like my time would have earned a real reward and might have some real value to some players.
I wasn't against the ones that were like 30 minutes-2 hours because I could just wander around and talk to the various companions and/or NPCs in Haven and/or Skyhold, I could explore the various places and/or take care of quests and side-quests.
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Post by unofficialgreycolor on Feb 4, 2017 21:51:20 GMT
So perhaps one of the more common worries about Mass Effect Andromeda is that its going to be 'Dragon Age in space' or 'as wide as an ocean, and deep as a puddle.' The idea being that the series going larger, and more open world, will cause the game to have worse content in terms of side quests, story quests, and over all deep philosophical 'fun.' But, I am not as concerned. Why? Because of BioWare's history. Dipping back very deeply into the time tunnel, way back in 2007 BioWare released a little known RPG known as Mass Effect. And it was a pretty good game which started an amazing franchize. But Mass Effect 1 tried to do two new things which BioWare had never done before. 1. Introduce a voiced protagonist for an RPG. And 2. Introduce shooting mechanics into a BioWare RPG. And...well the first one was lacklustre, many of the replies did not match the dialog prompt, and felt disjointed from the tone to where...even now...I often look at the sceen like...what just happened? And, the shooting mechanics...were quite bad and clunky at times. But, this was the first time BioWare had ever done gameplay like this before. Then when Mass Effect 2 came out both aspects of ME 1were vastly improved. The dialog prompts had weight and meaning, they usually matched what was on the wheel, and the combat was smooth, fluid, responsive, and the enemies were far better designed. Then in ME 3...the role playing did take a step back admittedly, but then the gameplay was a further improvement of the system set up in 2 and 1. So, fast forward into 2014 and BioWare released Dragon Age Inquisition. And I did not hate the side quests as much as some people would, there were quite a few of them I enjoyed quite a bit in fact, but I also know it was not the best and had weird fetch questing and an unhealthy obsession with ring collection. But this was BioWare's first RPG to go more or less open world. And it also went through its fair share of development issues, they were learning how to do a lot of new things. So, I think, MEA will really, really, really, be an improvement on the basic formulae. More evidence? Because BW has been here before. They have released games with amazing side content (Origins, ME 2), and the rest of their games have still had pretty good side quests. Only Inquisition had so-so story telling from the side quest perspective, and even then there were a few gems. And plus, they do tend to look at other people's gameplay a lot. Which is why I have said numerious times I feel Witcher 3 will be a lot more of an indicator on how ME A will do then DA I. Thoughts? I share your sentiments almost exactly.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 4, 2017 22:02:47 GMT
Frankly as long as BioWare doesn't have a lot of those pointless 6+ hour in real time War Table operations in ME:A, I would rather do 1000 silly fetch quests over waiting 6+ hours (and trying to get those damn thing set up so they could be ran overnight and in some cases that was next to impossible). Those damn things in DA:I made me want to play the game less I probably spent more time watching 3 hour movies and binge watching TV shows than actually playing the game and then to top it off those damn things offered very little in rewards for example Send a Letter to the Warden operation was a waste of a day all you get is a letter from the Warden, a bit of dialogue from either Leliana or Morrigan, and a useless belt. Which felt like a huge waste of time. BioWare could have the Warden send me the Starfang sword, the Blood Dragon Armor or at the very least schematics and the materials for a new Starfang weapon and the Blood Dragon Armor, or even a cutscene showing a dog running towards a fully armor clad human/elf/dwarf somewhere with a message, the Warden taking the message and writing a reply and sending the dog back with a letter and supplies. That would have at least made the operation feel like my time would have earned a real reward and might have some real value to some players. I wasn't against the ones that were like 30 minutes-2 hours because I could just wander around and talk to the various companions and/or NPCs in Haven and/or Skyhold, I could explore the various places and/or take care of quests and side-quests. I really never understood the complaints about the war table. Sure the rewards could have been MUCH better and sure I was wanting a little bit more interactivity with the thing, like it could do some quests for you. But at the end of the day I thought it was a neat idea, a fun way to interact with the world because it made the Inquisition feel alive. You could do things in the game when you weren't playing the game and your Inquisition could do things that maybe you could not get to. And a lot of them were neat little stories to.
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Post by bshep on Feb 4, 2017 22:13:23 GMT
I just (re)realized Tevinter's ruler is called an Archon. Urgh. Quarian - Qunari. (not quite, but close enough...) Have a feeling the same person named both...
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Post by Legenlorn on Feb 5, 2017 0:14:32 GMT
Yeah I am waiting for them to address the colony system. Thought the game was about finding a new home for humanity beside all the exploration.
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Post by unofficialgreycolor on Feb 5, 2017 0:16:39 GMT
Here's what I think they did about the situation: they made it so randomly enemies would attack you while exploring. I personally don't think I like this change. Being able to tie up loose ends after everything has been done without having to worry about being attacked by some epic monster would be closer to idea for me. That said, I don't mind if there would be more cinematics throughout the worlds in Andromeda and have plenty of them in lands where its just bonus content stuff.
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Post by vonuber on Feb 5, 2017 0:39:33 GMT
I had managed to wipe the war table from my memory. Thanks for reminding me of that travesty.
As I've got older and have less time for playing games - at least until the girls are old enough to play too- I am less tolerant of games that waste my time, and DA:I is very guilty of this. I have never finished it; I gave up after opening another area and realising that the same pointless busywork of rifts, camps, shards, bottles, letters and elfroot was present that I just thought I had better ways to spend my time.
Shane really as amongst all the chaff there were some genuine good moments; it was just drowned out amongst the other bollocks.
It's probably the same reason the witcher 3 is stuck at 2hours played; although I think I should give that another go.
Fallout 4 is an interesting case though - that has the potential for busywork- I really need to kill Preston before he gives me another radiant mission (incidentally I would not be surprised if the colony system in ME:A is similar in radiant quest structure) - but at least the exploration is interesting and the content is thick and fast, and varied. DA:I just felt like a pretty, empty backdrop. At least ME1 worlds were a small, confined area so you were not travelling endlessly.
This lack of wanting my time wasted is why, if I start an ME2 playthrough, I gibbed myself a million of each resource. ME2 is long enough without the busywork of planet scanning.
If ME:A requires you to collect 600 samples of unobtanium to upgrade each assault rifle then I suspect i will not be pleased.
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Post by The Arbiter on Feb 5, 2017 6:08:59 GMT
I'm worried of the plot more than anything else
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Post by The Arbiter on Feb 5, 2017 6:20:33 GMT
I'm confused about the analogy, what corresponds to the gorilla here? I think one needs to replace "will do" with "will be like", or "will be modeled after". I hope every developer learns from CDPR -- not necessarily emulate them. CDPR must have learnt from early BioWare when they started making games. the gorilla is the massive open world of MEA Good point thanks for the correction. And I agree. I mean me and a friend of mine were REALLY excited about DA I back in the day because we were both like ITS GOING TO BE SKYRIM WITH A STORY. Now I thought Skyrim was as boring as a box of rocks over all, but that was because there was nothing wrong with the world...Skyrim's world was gorgeous and felt alive and rich...but there was no connection in it with story or character. So, DA I...with story and character...was just going to be a Skyrim like world that I could get immersed in. And I did. Meanwhile over in the Witcher 3 verse I LOVED Witcher 3 but I also did not like how it handled some of its character writing and how it was essentially Geralt, off alone, doing his own thing. ummmm it's called "THE WITCHER" for a reason
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Post by projectpatdc on Feb 5, 2017 9:49:42 GMT
As long as it has witcher 3 amount of side quests that can also be randomly triggered, unlimited random events/ enemies, and a darn good story...Yeah I'll be happy.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2017 9:54:47 GMT
It's just a 5 minute walk with a nice vista. It's harmless like most N7 missions. Had it been DA:I, it would be a three-hour walk before pushing a button at the end. There was quite a bit of good loot too; though I can't remember exactly what it was. (Though the first time I played it, when at one point the metal platform under your feet gives way with a loud noise, it scared the hell out of me.)
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Post by Hrulj on Feb 5, 2017 10:20:46 GMT
Look friend, even if Mass Effect turned out to be the most amazing open world game it would still fail, because that is not what Mass Effect is. Mass Effect is about the story and characters. If Mass Effect Andromeda turns out to be just a grindfest interspaced with fetch quest then that is the last Bioware tittle I'll ever buy. How Dragon age could have turned out better? Remember those table missions you assigned people to? How about they actually made you do those interesting missions, rather than fetch quests.
As for MEA, the more comes out the more I dread it. So far all it seems to be is Dragon age Inquisition in space, with the Table mechanic of sending people out on missions, a cheesy antagonist with deep voice and main characters who are lucky that nepotism exists and will seemingly inherit the position of pathfinder from their father, rather than earn it.
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Post by BadgerladDK on Feb 5, 2017 10:42:53 GMT
Frankly as long as BioWare doesn't have a lot of those pointless 6+ hour in real time War Table operations in ME:A, I would rather do 1000 silly fetch quests over waiting 6+ hours (and trying to get those damn thing set up so they could be ran overnight and in some cases that was next to impossible). Those damn things in DA:I made me want to play the game less I probably spent more time watching 3 hour movies and binge watching TV shows than actually playing the game and then to top it off those damn things offered very little in rewards for example Send a Letter to the Warden operation was a waste of a day all you get is a letter from the Warden, a bit of dialogue from either Leliana or Morrigan, and a useless belt. Which felt like a huge waste of time. BioWare could have the Warden send me the Starfang sword, the Blood Dragon Armor or at the very least schematics and the materials for a new Starfang weapon and the Blood Dragon Armor, or even a cutscene showing a dog running towards a fully armor clad human/elf/dwarf somewhere with a message, the Warden taking the message and writing a reply and sending the dog back with a letter and supplies. That would have at least made the operation feel like my time would have earned a real reward and might have some real value to some players. I wasn't against the ones that were like 30 minutes-2 hours because I could just wander around and talk to the various companions and/or NPCs in Haven and/or Skyhold, I could explore the various places and/or take care of quests and side-quests. People actually waited out war table missions rather than just change the system clock?
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Post by mrfixit on Feb 5, 2017 11:10:01 GMT
It's just a 5 minute walk with a nice vista. It's harmless like most N7 missions. Had it been DA:I, it would be a three-hour walk before pushing a button at the end. There was quite a bit of good loot too; though I can't remember exactly what it was. (Though the first time I played it, when at one point the metal platform under your feet gives way with a loud noise, it scared the hell out of me.) Full disclosure: Every time I play the Estevanico mission, I decrease the volume. There are those periodic sounds of straining and breaking metal that are sudden and loud and scary as shit, no matter how often I played.
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