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Post by colfoley on Feb 3, 2017 22:44:53 GMT
So perhaps one of the more common worries about Mass Effect Andromeda is that its going to be 'Dragon Age in space' or 'as wide as an ocean, and deep as a puddle.' The idea being that the series going larger, and more open world, will cause the game to have worse content in terms of side quests, story quests, and over all deep philosophical 'fun.'
But, I am not as concerned. Why? Because of BioWare's history.
Dipping back very deeply into the time tunnel, way back in 2007 BioWare released a little known RPG known as Mass Effect. And it was a pretty good game which started an amazing franchize. But Mass Effect 1 tried to do two new things which BioWare had never done before. 1. Introduce a voiced protagonist for an RPG. And 2. Introduce shooting mechanics into a BioWare RPG. And...well the first one was lacklustre, many of the replies did not match the dialog prompt, and felt disjointed from the tone to where...even now...I often look at the sceen like...what just happened? And, the shooting mechanics...were quite bad and clunky at times. But, this was the first time BioWare had ever done gameplay like this before. Then when Mass Effect 2 came out both aspects of ME 1were vastly improved. The dialog prompts had weight and meaning, they usually matched what was on the wheel, and the combat was smooth, fluid, responsive, and the enemies were far better designed. Then in ME 3...the role playing did take a step back admittedly, but then the gameplay was a further improvement of the system set up in 2 and 1.
So, fast forward into 2014 and BioWare released Dragon Age Inquisition. And I did not hate the side quests as much as some people would, there were quite a few of them I enjoyed quite a bit in fact, but I also know it was not the best and had weird fetch questing and an unhealthy obsession with ring collection. But this was BioWare's first RPG to go more or less open world. And it also went through its fair share of development issues, they were learning how to do a lot of new things. So, I think, MEA will really, really, really, be an improvement on the basic formulae.
More evidence? Because BW has been here before. They have released games with amazing side content (Origins, ME 2), and the rest of their games have still had pretty good side quests. Only Inquisition had so-so story telling from the side quest perspective, and even then there were a few gems. And plus, they do tend to look at other people's gameplay a lot. Which is why I have said numerious times I feel Witcher 3 will be a lot more of an indicator on how ME A will do then DA I.
Thoughts?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2017 22:52:06 GMT
I'm confused about the analogy, what corresponds to the gorilla here?
I think one needs to replace "will do" with "will be like", or "will be modeled after".
I hope every developer learns from CDPR -- not necessarily emulate them. CDPR must have learnt from early BioWare when they started making games.
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Post by traks on Feb 3, 2017 22:53:42 GMT
I am not worried.
ME1>DAO
ME2>DA2
ME3>DAI
So I see a trend here and my guess is:
MEA>
I have to admit though, that space and TPS is way more to my liking than fantasy with slashing and spells (as a simplification for DA combat), so I guess that a fantasy fan probably will find DAO better than ME1. But me? Nope, every single one was better than the respective Dragon Age game in my book, so I have no worries about the quality of a Mass Effect game with a five year developing time.
Worried about a few things: 1) no reason named yet why we go to Andromeda, though I doubt that it will impact what we experience when we arrive in Adnromeda negatively, because it doesn't have any meaning to the Andromeda adventure. 2) Boss battles you can't win before leveling up.
But I'm not worried about this game being not another good one in the ME universe.
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Post by Cyonan on Feb 3, 2017 22:55:09 GMT
Well if we're using the idea of "large open areas to explore that are largely filled with nothing" then Mass Effect 1 did that before even Dragon Age: Origins was released.
My main concern about the "Dragon Age in space" thing is that Inquisition is filled with a lot of quests that would be more at home in a game like World of Warcraft than a BioWare RPG. Quests like the early Hinterlands one to collect 10 ram meat that have no choice to them but is just "go here, do objective, come back". While quests like that did exist in previous BioWare games, they felt a lot more prevalent in Inquisition.
Something that BioWare themselves have loved touting is that they're a RPG developer that provides player choice in their games. I don't feel like that should only apply to the main story and maybe some companion loyalty quests, even if the choices themselves aren't world changing.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 3, 2017 22:56:00 GMT
I'm confused about the analogy, what corresponds to the gorilla here? I think one needs to replace "will do" with "will be like", or "will be modeled after". I hope every developer learns from CDPR -- not necessarily emulate them. CDPR must have learnt from early BioWare when they started making games. the gorilla is the massive open world of MEA  Good point thanks for the correction. And I agree. I mean me and a friend of mine were REALLY excited about DA I back in the day because we were both like ITS GOING TO BE SKYRIM WITH A STORY. Now I thought Skyrim was as boring as a box of rocks over all, but that was because there was nothing wrong with the world...Skyrim's world was gorgeous and felt alive and rich...but there was no connection in it with story or character. So, DA I...with story and character...was just going to be a Skyrim like world that I could get immersed in. And I did. Meanwhile over in the Witcher 3 verse I LOVED Witcher 3 but I also did not like how it handled some of its character writing and how it was essentially Geralt, off alone, doing his own thing. |
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Post by jagaro on Feb 3, 2017 22:56:38 GMT
I somewhat believe that if Andromeda is sort of Inquisiton in space that it would make use of some of the cut content from Inquisition.
Specifically the so called outposts that were supposed to focus on trade, war and diplomacy.
I hope it's true so we can finally see those things get properly used. That's probably why Inquisiton felt shallow in areas because a number of things were cut.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2017 22:59:32 GMT
I don't think all games need to go open world to be necessarily better. That said, Dragon Age Inquisition is my favorite Bioware game so far, by far! I know a lot of people may hate some aspects of it, and I can understand that. With that in mind, I believe that up until now, open world games have suffered a seemingly inescapable problem: they become boring after a while. With all the sidequests around, you would have to go from one ass end of the map to another to solve a quest, return the husband's ring to a wife here, recover a cat from someone else there, find missing soldiers, destroy a group of bandits. This would happen a lot, in all the maps. I'm looking forward so much to Horizon Zero Dawn, but I think it will suffer this same problem. I don't think Andromeda will, by the way - not as much. As you said, colfoley, if there's one thing Bioware is always doing is experiment, sometimes it doesn't work for some of us, other times it does. But, it's my opinion that they never failed to deliver a better gameplay experience than previous titles, that held true for me so far, and since MEA seems to be taking DAI formula of world exploration, I do believe it will be better than last time. On that end, I'm not worried.  |
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Post by colfoley on Feb 3, 2017 23:09:29 GMT
I somewhat believe that if Andromeda is sort of Inquisiton in space that it would make use of some of the cut content from Inquisition. Specifically the so called outposts that were supposed to focus on trade, war and diplomacy. I hope it's true so we can finally see those things get properly used. That's probably why Inquisiton felt shallow in areas because a number of things were cut. I doubt it. And the reason is DA I was supposed to be a giant war story. Cameron Lee himself in a tweet a rather long time ago bemoaned some of the stuff that they weren't able to do as much of this war sim and kind of lead your Army, as the Inquisitor, real time. But the reason why I doubt it, other then they sort of failed with Inquisition, is that MEA is not a war story. Its an exploration story. Sure there will be fighting, sure there will be enemy bases and stuff you might be able to capture, but at the end of the day you are SUPPOSED to seek out new life and new civilizations. Which, I hope hope hope, BioWare does more in the way of diplomatic solutions to problems and maybe even some of the main plot points of the game rather then go through and shoot everything up. I don't think all games need to go open world to be necessarily better. That said, Dragon Age Inquisition is my favorite Bioware game so far, by far! I know a lot of people may hate some aspects of it, and I can understand that. With that in mind, I believe that until today, open world games have suffered a seemingly inescapable problem: they become boring after a while. With all the sidequests around, you would have to go from one ass end of the map to another to solve a quest, return the husband's ring to a wife here, recover a cat from someone else there, find missing soldiers, destroy a group of bandits. This would happen a lot, in all the maps. I'm looking forward so much to Horizon Zero Dawn, but I think it will suffer this same problem. I don't think Andromeda will suffer from this as much. As you said, colfoley, if there's one thing Bioware is always doing is experiment, sometimes it doesn't work for some of us, other times they do. But, it's my opinion that they never failed to deliver a better gameplay experience than previous titles, that held true for me so far, and since MEA seems to be taking DAI formula of world exploration, I do believe it will be better than last time. On that end, I'm not worried. I know, again I loved Witcher 3, but honestly if they did not give us a NG + I probably would be a lot less inclined to replay it because its such a grind. Hell I still have not replayed it. BioWare keeps sucking me in, but I hope to get to a second PT sometime after MEA comes out. |
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Post by mrfixit on Feb 3, 2017 23:16:30 GMT
I hope you are right, colfoley. One thing though, and I'm not sure how important this is. BioWare Montreal is behind ME:A, not Edmonton. While know-how is surely shared between them, fact is it's a new team without significant BioWare-style RPG experience. This is bound to affect the final product in some way because I doubt that the lack of first-hand experience can easily be "compensated" by outside help. Of course, this might turn out to be a positive: fresh perspective, new ideas, all that jazz.
Unrelated, but mentioned in the opening post: why do people always say that ME3 gameplay was better than ME2? I dunno, for me ME3 was a bit too twitchy, animations seemed unnaturally sped up, motions lacked the fluidity of the previous game. Also, and just as important, the game was hilariously easy, even easier than ME2 which wasn't exactly all that tough.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 3, 2017 23:25:57 GMT
I hope you are right, colfoley. One thing though, and I'm not sure how important this is. BioWare Montreal is behind ME:A, not Edmonton. While know-how is surely shared between them, fact is it's a new team without significant BioWare-style RPG experience. This is bound to affect the final product in some way because I doubt that the lack of first-hand experience can easily be "compensated" by outside help. Of course, this might turn out to be a positive: fresh perspective, new ideas, all that jazz. Unrelated, but mentioned in the opening post: why do people always say that ME3 gameplay was better than ME2? I dunno, for me ME3 was a bit too twitchy, animations seemed unnaturally sped up, motions lacked the fluidity of the previous game. Also, and just as important, the game was hilariously easy, even easier than ME2 which wasn't exactly all that tough. True. But the leadership, it seems, has been there for a while. You have writers on the game that go back at least to Dragon Age Origins, Mac Walters (endings aside please), goes back to ME 1 and he was a co lead writer in probably my second favorite game of all time in ME 2, and Ian Frazier....while he is new to BioWare...relatively speaking...this is not his first RPG rodeo. So, they still have a veteran core there and many people who worked at Edementon, have followed them to Montreal and it was said...I believe by Walters...that even though Montreal is leading development they have also been in collaboration both with Austin and Edmenton. |
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Post by Iakus on Feb 3, 2017 23:27:01 GMT
So perhaps one of the more common worries about Mass Effect Andromeda is that its going to be 'Dragon Age in space' or 'as wide as an ocean, and deep as a puddle.' The idea being that the series going larger, and more open world, will cause the game to have worse content in terms of side quests, story quests, and over all deep philosophical 'fun.' But, I am not as concerned. Why? Because of BioWare's history. Dipping back very deeply into the time tunnel, way back in 2007 BioWare released a little known RPG known as Mass Effect. And it was a pretty good game which started an amazing franchize. But Mass Effect 1 tried to do two new things which BioWare had never done before. 1. Introduce a voiced protagonist for an RPG. And 2. Introduce shooting mechanics into a BioWare RPG. And...well the first one was lacklustre, many of the replies did not match the dialog prompt, and felt disjointed from the tone to where...even now...I often look at the sceen like...what just happened? And, the shooting mechanics...were quite bad and clunky at times. But, this was the first time BioWare had ever done gameplay like this before. Then when Mass Effect 2 came out both aspects of ME 1were vastly improved. The dialog prompts had weight and meaning, they usually matched what was on the wheel, and the combat was smooth, fluid, responsive, and the enemies were far better designed. Then in ME 3...the role playing did take a step back admittedly, but then the gameplay was a further improvement of the system set up in 2 and 1. So, fast forward into 2014 and BioWare released Dragon Age Inquisition. And I did not hate the side quests as much as some people would, there were quite a few of them I enjoyed quite a bit in fact, but I also know it was not the best and had weird fetch questing and an unhealthy obsession with ring collection. But this was BioWare's first RPG to go more or less open world. And it also went through its fair share of development issues, they were learning how to do a lot of new things. So, I think, MEA will really, really, really, be an improvement on the basic formulae. More evidence? Because BW has been here before. They have released games with amazing side content (Origins, ME 2), and the rest of their games have still had pretty good side quests. Only Inquisition had so-so story telling from the side quest perspective, and even then there were a few gems. And plus, they do tend to look at other people's gameplay a lot. Which is why I have said numerious times I feel Witcher 3 will be a lot more of an indicator on how ME A will do then DA I. Thoughts? My fear comes from a couple of sources. First, and most obviously is ME3. While combat mechanics-wise it might have been the "best", it was an incredibly shallow RPG, which limited dialogue options, a railroaded story, and of course, the endings, which is the reason why they have to tack "Andromeda" onto the titles from now on. The big question I have that they never answered was "After ME3, why should I trust you again"? The second reason is illustrated by ME2 and DAI, namely their obsession with "streamlining" Limited powers available, no matter how many you unlock. Poor keyboard+mouse control. Minimal control over companion actions. All seem designed to turn combat into frenetic button-mashing in the name of "fun" |
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Post by colfoley on Feb 3, 2017 23:32:13 GMT
So perhaps one of the more common worries about Mass Effect Andromeda is that its going to be 'Dragon Age in space' or 'as wide as an ocean, and deep as a puddle.' The idea being that the series going larger, and more open world, will cause the game to have worse content in terms of side quests, story quests, and over all deep philosophical 'fun.' But, I am not as concerned. Why? Because of BioWare's history. Dipping back very deeply into the time tunnel, way back in 2007 BioWare released a little known RPG known as Mass Effect. And it was a pretty good game which started an amazing franchize. But Mass Effect 1 tried to do two new things which BioWare had never done before. 1. Introduce a voiced protagonist for an RPG. And 2. Introduce shooting mechanics into a BioWare RPG. And...well the first one was lacklustre, many of the replies did not match the dialog prompt, and felt disjointed from the tone to where...even now...I often look at the sceen like...what just happened? And, the shooting mechanics...were quite bad and clunky at times. But, this was the first time BioWare had ever done gameplay like this before. Then when Mass Effect 2 came out both aspects of ME 1were vastly improved. The dialog prompts had weight and meaning, they usually matched what was on the wheel, and the combat was smooth, fluid, responsive, and the enemies were far better designed. Then in ME 3...the role playing did take a step back admittedly, but then the gameplay was a further improvement of the system set up in 2 and 1. So, fast forward into 2014 and BioWare released Dragon Age Inquisition. And I did not hate the side quests as much as some people would, there were quite a few of them I enjoyed quite a bit in fact, but I also know it was not the best and had weird fetch questing and an unhealthy obsession with ring collection. But this was BioWare's first RPG to go more or less open world. And it also went through its fair share of development issues, they were learning how to do a lot of new things. So, I think, MEA will really, really, really, be an improvement on the basic formulae. More evidence? Because BW has been here before. They have released games with amazing side content (Origins, ME 2), and the rest of their games have still had pretty good side quests. Only Inquisition had so-so story telling from the side quest perspective, and even then there were a few gems. And plus, they do tend to look at other people's gameplay a lot. Which is why I have said numerious times I feel Witcher 3 will be a lot more of an indicator on how ME A will do then DA I. Thoughts? My fear comes from a couple of sources. First, and most obviously is ME3. While combat mechanics-wise it might have been the "best", it was an incredibly shallow RPG, which limited dialogue options, a railroaded story, and of course, the endings, which is the reason why they have to tack "Andromeda" onto the titles from now on. The big question I have that they never answered was "After ME3, why should I trust you again"? The second reason is illustrated by ME2 and DAI, namely their obsession with "streamlining" Limited powers available, no matter how many you unlock. Poor keyboard+mouse control. Minimal control over companion actions. All seem designed to turn combat into frenetic button-mashing in teh name of "fun" I think, for me anyways, I would be a lot more skeptical about the game if DA I wasn't such a wild hit with me. And that it did nearly everything better then ME 3 did in terms of story, character, setting, gameplay, and even some of the things I traditionally do not like in video games, and view as a chore, I enjoyed quite a bit. I mean aside from the side quests DA I was, to me, a much better game. So, the question was at the back of my mind during DA I was similar to yours. "OK, I'm hyped...but I was hyped by ME 3...and was kind of let down...will history repeat?" And since it didn't, and since BioWare has 2 of my five favorite games of all time (or is it 4?) Yeah, I trust them. |
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Post by Iakus on Feb 3, 2017 23:44:05 GMT
I think, for me anyways, I would be a lot more skeptical about the game if DA I wasn't such a wild hit with me. And that it did nearly everything better then ME 3 did in terms of story, character, setting, gameplay, and even some of the things I traditionally do not like in video games, and view as a chore, I enjoyed quite a bit. I mean aside from the side quests DA I was, to me, a much better game. So, the question was at the back of my mind during DA I was similar to yours. "OK, I'm hyped...but I was hyped by ME 3...and was kind of let down...will history repeat?" And since it didn't, and since BioWare has 2 of my five favorite games of all time (or is it 4?) Yeah, I trust them. DAI is certainly not a bad game, story wise. I just started a new game myself. This despite it being quite obvious that some sections of the game had to be cut (and I'm not just talking about Crestwood) But gameplay-wise it's hard to love. Combat is quite restrictive. And MEA looks to be even more so. I don't want combat to be a monotonous chore. Also keep in mind MEA is being done by a different team. One that's still led by Mac Walters...[/quote] |
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Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
N6
At sunrise there is the sunset.
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger on Feb 3, 2017 23:44:29 GMT
So perhaps one of the more common worries about Mass Effect Andromeda is that its going to be 'Dragon Age in space' or 'as wide as an ocean, and deep as a puddle.' The idea being that the series going larger, and more open world, will cause the game to have worse content in terms of side quests, story quests, and over all deep philosophical 'fun.' But, I am not as concerned. Why? Because of BioWare's history. Dipping back very deeply into the time tunnel, way back in 2007 BioWare released a little known RPG known as Mass Effect. And it was a pretty good game which started an amazing franchize. But Mass Effect 1 tried to do two new things which BioWare had never done before. 1. Introduce a voiced protagonist for an RPG. And 2. Introduce shooting mechanics into a BioWare RPG. And...well the first one was lacklustre, many of the replies did not match the dialog prompt, and felt disjointed from the tone to where...even now...I often look at the sceen like...what just happened? And, the shooting mechanics...were quite bad and clunky at times. But, this was the first time BioWare had ever done gameplay like this before. Then when Mass Effect 2 came out both aspects of ME 1were vastly improved. The dialog prompts had weight and meaning, they usually matched what was on the wheel, and the combat was smooth, fluid, responsive, and the enemies were far better designed. Then in ME 3...the role playing did take a step back admittedly, but then the gameplay was a further improvement of the system set up in 2 and 1. So, fast forward into 2014 and BioWare released Dragon Age Inquisition. And I did not hate the side quests as much as some people would, there were quite a few of them I enjoyed quite a bit in fact, but I also know it was not the best and had weird fetch questing and an unhealthy obsession with ring collection. But this was BioWare's first RPG to go more or less open world. And it also went through its fair share of development issues, they were learning how to do a lot of new things. So, I think, MEA will really, really, really, be an improvement on the basic formulae. More evidence? Because BW has been here before. They have released games with amazing side content (Origins, ME 2), and the rest of their games have still had pretty good side quests. Only Inquisition had so-so story telling from the side quest perspective, and even then there were a few gems. And plus, they do tend to look at other people's gameplay a lot. Which is why I have said numerious times I feel Witcher 3 will be a lot more of an indicator on how ME A will do then DA I. Thoughts? My fear comes from a couple of sources. First, and most obviously is ME3. While combat mechanics-wise it might have been the "best", it was an incredibly shallow RPG, which limited dialogue options, a railroaded story, and of course, the endings, which is the reason why they have to tack "Andromeda" onto the titles from now on. The big question I have that they never answered was "After ME3, why should I trust you again"? The second reason is illustrated by ME2 and DAI, namely their obsession with "streamlining" Limited powers available, no matter how many you unlock. Poor keyboard+mouse control. Minimal control over companion actions. All seem designed to turn combat into frenetic button-mashing in teh name of "fun" Agreed. The vast openness and side missions compares little to these limiting factors. |
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Post by mrfixit on Feb 3, 2017 23:46:56 GMT
I think, for me anyways, I would be a lot more skeptical about the game if DA I wasn't such a wild hit with me. And that it did nearly everything better then ME 3 did in terms of story, character, setting, gameplay, and even some of the things I traditionally do not like in video games, and view as a chore, I enjoyed quite a bit. I mean aside from the side quests DA I was, to me, a much better game. So, the question was at the back of my mind during DA I was similar to yours. "OK, I'm hyped...but I was hyped by ME 3...and was kind of let down...will history repeat?" And since it didn't, and since BioWare has 2 of my five favorite games of all time (or is it 4?) Yeah, I trust them. I am currently replaying DA:I -- actually finishing it for the first time -- and I have such a strange relationship to this game. When all is said and done, I think I really love it: main missions are fantastic, zones look beautiful and it's easy to get lost in them (doing total garbage fetching, but still...), companions are maybe the best in any Bioware game so far, Skyhold is my bestest cutest nicest homebase ever, crafting is fun, combat mechanics are very enjoyable (controversial opinion, I know, but I find it fun), and worldbuilding is extremely deep... if you take the time to read all those zillions of codices and various read-me's. And then, I take a step back and just sigh at the utter horror that is side content. And that side content, if you are a completionist (which I am), easily takes 75% of playtime. All those big, huge, beautiful maps and I don't think there's a single role-playing choice to be made in them nor an NPC to be found. Well, okay, I lie, there are a few, but even then choices are usually binary: do or don't do something. It's unbelievably horrid. If Andromeda is intent on following in DA:I footsteps, I have two hopes: (1) MOAR! main content. You can't have a big game with only a few main missions. (2) Populate those goddamn open-world-ish planets with worthy side content. Role-play opportunities, choice&consequence, interesting NPCs outside of hubs. Related to this, I think each planet really needs a cohesive story of its own. It doesn't necessarily have to be related to the main quest chain -- though it would help -- but there should be an overarching side story there. No more WTF am I even doing here (think Hissing Wastes, Exalted Plains, Storm Coast or a number of other maps without a coherent story). |
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Post by colfoley on Feb 3, 2017 23:47:43 GMT
I think, for me anyways, I would be a lot more skeptical about the game if DA I wasn't such a wild hit with me. And that it did nearly everything better then ME 3 did in terms of story, character, setting, gameplay, and even some of the things I traditionally do not like in video games, and view as a chore, I enjoyed quite a bit. I mean aside from the side quests DA I was, to me, a much better game. So, the question was at the back of my mind during DA I was similar to yours. "OK, I'm hyped...but I was hyped by ME 3...and was kind of let down...will history repeat?" And since it didn't, and since BioWare has 2 of my five favorite games of all time (or is it 4?) Yeah, I trust them. DAI is certainly not a bad game, story wise. I just started a new game myself. This despite it being quite obvious that some sections of the game had to be cut (and I'm not just talking about Crestwood) But gameplay-wise it's hard to love. Combat is quite restrictive. And MEA looks to be even more so. I don't want combat to be a monotonous chore. Also keep in mind MEA is being done by a different team. One that's still led by Mac Walters... The only game I ever thought was a 'chore' to play combat wise was DA O. Maybe ME 1. But in the case of the former you had an access to a wide range of abilities but the combat was just....bad. |
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Post by colfoley on Feb 3, 2017 23:53:20 GMT
I think, for me anyways, I would be a lot more skeptical about the game if DA I wasn't such a wild hit with me. And that it did nearly everything better then ME 3 did in terms of story, character, setting, gameplay, and even some of the things I traditionally do not like in video games, and view as a chore, I enjoyed quite a bit. I mean aside from the side quests DA I was, to me, a much better game. So, the question was at the back of my mind during DA I was similar to yours. "OK, I'm hyped...but I was hyped by ME 3...and was kind of let down...will history repeat?" And since it didn't, and since BioWare has 2 of my five favorite games of all time (or is it 4?) Yeah, I trust them. I am currently replaying DA:I -- actually finishing it for the first time -- and I have such a strange relationship to this game. When all is said and done, I think I really love it: main missions are fantastic, zones look beautiful and it's easy to get lost in them (doing total garbage fetching, but still...), companions are maybe the best in any Bioware game so far, Skyhold is my bestest cutest nicest homebase ever, crafting is fun, combat mechanics are very enjoyable (controversial opinion, I know, but I find it fun), and worldbuilding is extremely deep... if you take the time to read all those zillions of codices and various read-me's. And then, I take a step back and just sigh at the utter horror that is side content. And that side content, if you are a completionist (which I am), easily takes 75% of playtime. All those big, huge, beautiful maps and I don't think there's a single role-playing choice to be in them. Well, okay, I lie, there are a few, but even then they are usually binary: do or don't do something. It's unbelievably horrid. If Andromeda is intent on following in DA:I footsteps, I have two hopes: (1) MOAR! main content. You can't have a big game with only a few main missions. (2) Populate those goddamn open-world-ish planets with worthy side content. Role-play opportunities, choice&consequence, interesting NPCs outside of hubs. Related to this, I think each planet really needs a cohesive story of its own. It doesn't necessarily have to be related to the main quest chain -- though it would help -- but there should be an overarching side story there. No more WTF am I even doing here (think Hissing Wastes, Exalted Plains, Storm Coast or a number of other maps without a coherent story)? All games seem to have two- three layers of content. Your 'main' story, and then random collection stuff that does not actually contribute much to the game but it is kind of cool for those who want to look for it. RPGs add a second layer of 'side quests' to the mix. Fun stories that are still optional to do, but are out there in the world. So Inquisition had great Tier 1 content, pretty good Tier 2 content, and horrible collecting tier 3 content. But...for the most part every single video game ever struggles with the collection stuff. Its either so far in the back ground you can ignore it, or its shoddily done. Even the Witcher 3, for all of its accolades and how godly the game actually is...had pretty horrible tier 3 content. Those damn question marks are the one reason I have been so hesitant to pick up the game again. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2017 23:54:13 GMT
I think, for me anyways, I would be a lot more skeptical about the game if DA I wasn't such a wild hit with me. And that it did nearly everything better then ME 3 did in terms of story, character, setting, gameplay, and even some of the things I traditionally do not like in video games, and view as a chore, I enjoyed quite a bit. I mean aside from the side quests DA I was, to me, a much better game. So, the question was at the back of my mind during DA I was similar to yours. "OK, I'm hyped...but I was hyped by ME 3...and was kind of let down...will history repeat?" And since it didn't, and since BioWare has 2 of my five favorite games of all time (or is it 4?) Yeah, I trust them. DAI is certainly not a bad game, story wise. I just started a new game myself. This despite it being quite obvious that some sections of the game had to be cut (and I'm not just talking about Crestwood) But gameplay-wise it's hard to love. Combat is quite restrictive. And MEA looks to be even more so. I don't want combat to be a monotonous chore. Also keep in mind MEA is being done by a different team. One that's still led by Mac Walters... Yeah, I agree with you that we are getting less and less power slots in each game, and that sucks. Even if we can replace them for each subsequent battle. The more options we have to hand the asses of our enemies to them, the better. |
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Post by mrfixit on Feb 4, 2017 0:09:07 GMT
All games seem to have two- three layers of content. Your 'main' story, and then random collection stuff that does not actually contribute much to the game but it is kind of cool for those who want to look for it. RPGs add a second layer of 'side quests' to the mix. Fun stories that are still optional to do, but are out there in the world. So Inquisition had great Tier 1 content, pretty good Tier 2 content, and horrible collecting tier 3 content. But...for the most part every single video game ever struggles with the collection stuff. Its either so far in the back ground you can ignore it, or its shoddily done. Even the Witcher 3, for all of its accolades and how godly the game actually is...had pretty horrible tier 3 content. Those damn question marks are the one reason I have been so hesitant to pick up the game again. I get you, but I'm not sure I'd agree that what you call Tier 2 content is actually all that good. DA:I really really really needed stronger sense of purpose in its side content and optional maps. For example, why not tie Exalted Plains into Halamshiral plot? You can do it or not, but finishing it could have contributed in some small way to the Winter Palace stuff. Anyway, just adding a couple of lively and memorable characters to Gaspard's and Celene's armies would have done wonders. Give us the option, like in DA:O's Orzammar, to accept quests from one or the other side... or maybe f*ck over both in some way. Or take the Freemen in the Emerald Graves. If you take time to read the various texts you chance upon, they start to look like a very interesting concept to explore: deserters tired of war, wanting to fight for something else and not two faceless nobles that mean nothing to them. So why not build upon it? Why not let us talk with their leaders (maybe Gordian or those 3 guys in Emerald Graves)? Maybe try to make peace between them and Fairbanks's refugees? Or conscript them into Inquisition? Or convince them to return to their armies and do their duty regardless of how they feel? Something, ANYTHING instead of turning them into faceless mooks we mow down for god knows what reason. Don't even get me started on the abysmal "story" in Storm Coast that boils down to tracking Warden letters and finding that, nope, they're not here. Was it really impossible to let us meet those wardens, chat with them, maybe do a quest or two with them (like we had those 2 dwarves in Descent with us providing lively banter and cool background info). Even hint at something wrong going on with them which would foreshadow the Adamant quest... I only needed a semblance of coherent story in each zone accompanied by a few memorable characters and some role-play choices. How difficult to implement is that? |
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Post by colfoley on Feb 4, 2017 0:16:20 GMT
All games seem to have two- three layers of content. Your 'main' story, and then random collection stuff that does not actually contribute much to the game but it is kind of cool for those who want to look for it. RPGs add a second layer of 'side quests' to the mix. Fun stories that are still optional to do, but are out there in the world. So Inquisition had great Tier 1 content, pretty good Tier 2 content, and horrible collecting tier 3 content. But...for the most part every single video game ever struggles with the collection stuff. Its either so far in the back ground you can ignore it, or its shoddily done. Even the Witcher 3, for all of its accolades and how godly the game actually is...had pretty horrible tier 3 content. Those damn question marks are the one reason I have been so hesitant to pick up the game again. I get you, but I'm not sure I'd agree that what you call Tier 2 content is actually all that good. DA:I really really really needed stronger sense of purpose in its side content and optional maps. For example, why not tie Exalted Plains into Halamshiral plot? You can do it or not, but finishing it could have contributed in some small way to the Winter Palace stuff. Anyway, just adding a couple of lively and memorable characters to Gaspard's and Celene's armies would have done wonders. Give us the option, like in DA:O's Orzammar, to accept quests from one or the other side... or maybe f*ck over both in some way. Or take the Freemen in the Emerald Graves. If you take time to read the various texts you chance upon, they start to like a very interesting concept to explore: deserters tired of war, wanting to fight for something else and not two faceless nobles that mean nothing to them. So why not build upon it? Why not let us talk with their leaders (maybe Gordian or those 3 guys in Emerald Graves)? Maybe try to make peace between them and Fairbanks's refugees? Something, ANYTHING instead of turning them into faceless mooks we mow down for god knows what reason. Don't even get me started on the abysmal "story" in Storm Coast that boils down to tracking Warden letters and finding that, nope, they're not here. Was it really impossible to let us meet those wardens, chat with them, maybe do a quest or two with them (like we had those 2 dwarves in Descent with us providing lively banter and cool background info). Even hint at something wrong going on with them which would foreshadow the Adamant quest... I only needed a semblance of coherent story in each zone accompanied by a few memorable characters and some role-play choices. How difficult to implement is that? Hey you're speaking my language I often wanted the game to be tighter and feel like a continious world, and the Exalted Plains Example you gave is one of my favorite and most obvious. Another one I am quite fond of is taking Griffon WIng Keep will help you out when you go take Adamant. As far as the rest of it? I mean none of us really know the ins and outs of gameplaying. I have studied it off and on as what is right now a 'hobby', but even I know enough to know that A. I know nothing. and B. video games are probably the hardest medium to actually work with and create because you are constantly having to create worlds and people from scratch. Keeping both of these things in mind I suspect that DA I had a rather troubling design and development stage. I can't point to anything and say with one hundred percent certainty and go 'Ah ha!' but given BioWare's history, and given how Witcher 3 did much better in offering us 'tier 2' content which was much better and fleshed out and had stories which effected your game in large and small ways I suspect that a lot of the problem had to do with releasing the game on the PS3 generation of consoles and maybe, just maybe, the older hardware could not do what BioWare wanted it to in terms of having a big world, but the usual quality when it comes to content. But this is ultimately why I am not worried, so much, about the side content because those consoles have been ditched. Granted I could still be wrong and I am still a liiiitttlle worried...but I am just trying to lay out a scenario of why I believe MEAs 'tier 2' content will be much better then DA Is. |
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Post by Gileadan on Feb 4, 2017 0:32:16 GMT
I'm firmly in the "I don't know what to think yet" camp. On the plus side, BioWare generally manages to write companions that I really like to spend time with, with often stellar voice acting to bring them to life. That is something I'm really looking forward to.
Also, this is a third person shooter, so I believe that it will be easier to implement the Frostbite 3 engine this time around. That engine was made to shoot stuff in the face (as opposed to meleeing house sized dragons) and drive vehicles around, so fewer modifications should be required to get the desired gameplay mechanics working.
What worries me, animation quality aside, is the narrative. The odd choice to show up with unarmed vehicles - unless there is a vault to raid, then we no longer come in peace. The rather generic Coryphyarchon antagonist will hopefully turn out to be more complex than shown so far.
But most of all... the missed opportunity. We arrive in a new galaxy, making contact with new exciting aliens... except... the human ark is late to the party, so someone else made first contact already, not us, and we get back to the familiar experience of shooting human and turian raiders because resources. I can hear Peebee crying bitter tears of disappointment from here.
Maybe none of my worries will come to pass. Maybe the animations will be glorious in the finished product, maybe the story will fascinate me so much that I play until 4 AM on a work day. Who knows, it's all possible.
But that's the thing. Maybe. And the trailers so far aren't overly promising.
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Post by SofNascimento on Feb 4, 2017 0:34:23 GMT
I just (re)realized Tevinter's ruler is called an Archon.
Urgh.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 4, 2017 0:35:20 GMT
I'm firmly in the "I don't know what to think yet" camp. On the plus side, BioWare generally manages to write companions that I really like to spend time with, with often stellar voice acting to bring them to life. That is something I'm really looking forward to. Also, this is a third person shooter, so I believe that it will be easier to implement the Frostbite 3 engine this time around. That engine was made to shoot stuff in the face (as opposed to meleeing house sized dragons) and drive vehicles around, so fewer modifications should be required to get the desired gameplay mechanics working. What worries me, animation quality aside, is the narrative. The odd choice to show up with unarmed vehicles - unless there is a vault to raid, then we no longer come in peace. The rather generic Coryphyarchon antagonist will hopefully turn out to be more complex than shown so far. But most of all... the missed opportunity. We arrive in a new galaxy, making contact with new exciting aliens... except... the human ark is late to the party, so someone else made first contact already, not us, and we get back to the familiar experience of shooting human and turian raiders because resources. I can hear Peebee crying bitter tears of disappointment from here. Maybe none of my worries will come to pass. Maybe the animations will be glorious in the finished product, maybe the story will fascinate me so much that I play until 4 AM on a work day. Who knows, it's all possible. But that's the thing. Maybe. And the trailers so far aren't overly promising. I'm not worried about the Archon because they do tend to make their big villains mustache twirley to add layers in, or have layers in to characters that turn into Villains. I mean hell even Corypheus was much more layered then most people give him credit for. |
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Post by laudable11 on Feb 4, 2017 0:48:14 GMT
I just (re)realized Tevinter's ruler is called an Archon. Urgh. Oh wow. I just looked this up for myself and wow. Jeez BioWare, what the hell? |
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Post by javeart on Feb 4, 2017 0:48:22 GMT
this is definitely my biggest concern... I really don't like the open world approach for BW games... but I want to think you're right, and they always say that they've learned from DAI' mistakes, and I want to believe them too... I'm so awfully hyped that I think I actually do  But even if they do it better, I still find it hard to believe that it's something that can make me like a BW game more... But meh, if it doesn't make me like it less, I guess it's enough |
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