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Post by KaiserShep on Sept 3, 2016 3:25:30 GMT
The only thing that would keep me from buying this game, other than death, would be if my system imploded, which then casted a curse that caused all subsequent systems I purchase to also implode.
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Post by Sartoz on Sept 3, 2016 12:55:35 GMT
<<<<<<<<<<(0)>>>>>>>>>> I think it is the only option available to them. Besides, what's so ridiculous about it? Besides the fact that the Reapers are the only ones who could plausibly have the tech to actually get there? <<<<<<<<<<(0)>>>>>>>>>> That's the thing. If Bio truly wants to explain how we got there, then the studio must squash that tech limitation. Since we are in Andromeda, the tech "limits" were overcome. Some, I'm sure, will gnash their teeth at the 'solution". Remember that in a sci-fi universe, there are no limitations except for what your imagination can provide. If anything, those who watched the Twilight Zone should be aware of this.
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Post by shechinah on Sept 3, 2016 13:03:47 GMT
I think that they've said that this is a more personal story so that would fit with Dragon Age 2. Now that I think about it, a couple of things about Andromeda does seem to echo Dragon Age 2; settling in the Andromeda galaxy could be seen as similar to Hawke and their family being refugees and building their life in Kirkwall. There is confirmed to be a Ryder family. Additionally, there is likewise the story of becoming a hero over time.
I should note that I don't consider this to be a bad idea especially since the Mass Effect team would possibly be able to improve upon the execution of the idea based on the positive and negative feedback Dragon Age 2 recieved.
There is also the persistent theory that the N7 seen in trailers is a member of Ryder's family and that a large part of the personal angle lies there.
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Post by shechinah on Sept 3, 2016 13:09:35 GMT
The only thing that would keep me from buying this game, other than death, would be if my system imploded, which then casted a curse that caused all subsequent systems I purchase to also implode.
So basically a electronic version of the Walking Bomb spell?
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Post by Addictress on Sept 3, 2016 15:58:06 GMT
Then again, I admit i'm biased towards the module style of campaigning; since Dragon Age II BioWare has started to get away from that and connecting everything bit by bit, which I personally like a lot. Maybe it is a change in style and tone, but it's not bring in real world issues for the sake of it, it's doing so with purpose to enrich its own world i'd argue, a quality that you are also looking for. Not quite for me. I can see where your coming from, but I see all of this stuff as a watering down of the universe. Sure, NPCs like Krem may have a character, but the setting overall is now less nuanced. That's where I get annoyed. Compare DA:Origins/Awakening to DA:Inquisition. In the first game we had: Near human-level intelligent dogs in the form of the Mabari. Sylvans Golems Werewolves Awakened Dragons that possessed a high level of intelligence/cunning Intelligent spirits and demons that could talk, reason, and manipulate people Now look at the most recent game: Mabari are now just common dogs wondering the countryside Sylvans are nonexistent Golems are nonexistent Werewolves are nonexistent Awakened are nonexistent Dragons are just wild animals with wings and a breath weapon Spirits and Demons are just mindless monsters save for 2 very specific characters (who even then are more human than anything else). But we get to include notable examples of homosexual and transgendered characters; a human issue. Origins was far more diverse of a setting than Inquisition was IMO. In the first game, human and human-like perceptions, politics and issues were just a small part of a much larger whole. In the most recent game practically all of those non-human elements are gone and the setting is a human centric world in bad need of an exterminator. The same can be said of Mass Effect 1 vs. Mass Effect 3 This, so hard. I can't believe more people didn't perceive a drop in immersive quality in Inquisition.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Sept 3, 2016 17:25:40 GMT
Tolkien's works have no allegorical meanings to them, but people attach it to his words all the time. This is your opinion. It is my opinion that his main works are entirely allegorical, despite his quotes and protestations about allegory seeming to prove otherwise. Evidence: letters to Robert Murray, letters to CS Lewis, letters to his son. Also, having read the trilogy in it's entirety no less than 20 times, including the Silmarillion and much of the Lost Works, I cannot disagree with you more. links, you sure like to put yourself out there like you know everything. Do not make statements that are not factual. What you posted is the definition of an opinion.
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Post by Iakus on Sept 3, 2016 18:36:56 GMT
Tolkien's works have no allegorical meanings to them, but people attach it to his words all the time. This is your opinion. It is my opinion that his main works are entirely allegorical, despite his quotes and protestations about allegory seeming to prove otherwise. Evidence: letters to Robert Murray, letters to CS Lewis, letters to his son. Also, having read the trilogy in it's entirety no less than 20 times, including the Silmarillion and much of the Lost Works, I cannot disagree with you more. links, you sure like to put yourself out there like you know everything. Do not make statements that are not factual. What you posted is the definition of an opinion. It is not his opinion, it is the opinion of JRR Tolkien himself: As for any meaning or 'message', it has in the intention of the author none. It is neither allegorical or topical. As the story grew it put down roots(into the past) and threw out unexpected branches; but its main theme was settled from the outset by its inevitable choice of the Ring as the link between it and The Hobbit. The crucial chapter "The Shadow of the Past", is one of the oldest parts of the tale. It was written long before the foreshadow of 1939 had yet become a threat of inevitable disaster, and from that point the story would have developed essentially along the same lines, if that disaster had been averted. Its sources are things long before in mind, or in some cases already written, and little or nothing in it was modified by the war that began in 1939 or its sequels.
The real war does not resemble the legendary war in its process or conclusion. If it had inspired or directed the development of the legend, then certainly the Ring would have been seized and used against Sauron; he would not have been annihilated but enslaved, and Barad-dur would not have been destroyed but occupied. Sauman, failing to get possession of the Ring, would in the confusion and treacheries of the time have found in Mordor the missing links in his own researches into Ring-lore, and before long he would have made a Great Ring of his own with which to challenge the self-styled Ruler of Middle-Earth. In that conflict both sides would have held hobbits in hatred and contempt: they would not long have survived even as slaves.
Other arrangements could be devised according to the tastes or views of those who like allegory or topical reference. But I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history, true or feigned, with its varied applicability in the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse "applicability" with "allegory"; but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.
An author cannot of course remain wholly unaffected by his experience, but the ways of which a story-germ uses the soil of experience are extremely complex, and attempts to define the process are at best guesses from evidence that is inadequate and ambiguous, It is also false, though naturally attractive, when the lives of an author and critic have overlapped, to suppose that the movements of thought or the events of times common to both were necessarily the most powerful influences. One has indeed personally to come under the shadow of war to feel fully its oppression; but as the years go by it seems now often forgotten that to be caught in youth by 1914 was no less hideous an experience than to be involved in 1939 and the following years. By 1918 all but one of my close friends were dead. Or to take a less grievous matter: it had been supposed by some that "The Scouring of the Shire" reflects the situation in England at the time I was finishing my tale. It does not. It is an essential part of the plot, foreseen from the outset, though in the event modified by the character of Saruman as developed in the story without, I need say, any allegorical significance or contemporary political reference whatsoever. It has indeed some basis in experience, though slender (for the economic situation was entirely different), and much further back. The country in which I lived in childhood was being shabbily destroyed before I as ten, in days when motor-cars were rare objects (I had never seen one) and men were still building suburban railways. Recently I saw in a paper a picture of the last decrepitude of the once thriving corn-mill beside its pool that long ago seemed to me so important. I never liked the looks of the Young miller, but his father, the Old miller, had a black beard, and he was not named Sandyman [/span][/span] [/i] From the forward of The Fellowship of the RIng
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Post by Iakus on Sept 3, 2016 18:42:01 GMT
Besides the fact that the Reapers are the only ones who could plausibly have the tech to actually get there? <<<<<<<<<<(0)>>>>>>>>>> That's the thing. If Bio truly wants to explain how we got there, then the studio must squash that tech limitation. Since we are in Andromeda, the tech "limits" were overcome. Some, I'm sure, will gnash their teeth at the 'solution". Remember that in a sci-fi universe, there are no limitations except for what your imagination can provide. If anything, those who watched the Twilight Zone should be aware of this. If the tech limitation is squashed, then why are we calling it "Mass Effect"? Science fiction does have limits. Hell, even fantasy has limits. That's part of what makes a story interesting. How are limits overcome? Simply handwaving them away as an unimportant detail that's delaying our pwning enemies in the face makes for a cr*ppy story (see The Lazarus Project)
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Sept 3, 2016 18:44:03 GMT
You totally ignored my post?
"Despite his quotes and protestations otherwise" I believe is what I said, and offered evidence of his letters saying otherwise, and having read the books thoroughly. I did not include that I studied Religion as a minor for my Phil undergrad.
His correspondence with CS Lewis is a direct contradiction of his later words on this matter.
Whether his work is allegorical or not is wholly a matter of opinion, and nobody is right with certainty. Just because an author says his work isn't allegorical doesn't mean it isn't.
The authors of the ending of ME3 maintain it is good.
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Post by Iakus on Sept 3, 2016 18:56:36 GMT
You totally ignored my post? "Despite his quotes and protestations otherwise" I believe is what I said, and offered evidence of his letters saying otherwise, and having read the books thoroughly. I did not include that I studied Religion as a minor for my Phil undergrad. His correspondence with CS Lewis is a direct contradiction of his later words on this matter. Whether his work is allegorical or not is wholly a matter of opinion, and nobody is right with certainty. Just because an author says his work isn't allegorical doesn't mean it isn't. The authors of the ending of ME3 maintain it is good. Read your post. Read Tolkien too. I reread his books every couple of years myself. Heck I have a copy of LOTR sitting next to me on my desk right now. And between the opinion of someone who's read his books, and the words of the author himself, I'm going with the author.
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Post by Sailears on Sept 3, 2016 19:47:56 GMT
I certainly won't preorder unless having seen some excellent gameplay demos for the multiplayer side of things. And then most likely just the standard edition.
If no decent demos exist before release, I'll wait till after for buying.
The forum shutdown has not affected my decision making process at all.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Sept 3, 2016 20:47:31 GMT
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but claiming that the Lord of the Rings is in no way allegorical to the myth of Christ is simply ignoring the obvious.
It is apparent moreso in The Silmarillion. The Silmarillion being the War in Heaven, with Morgoth the fallen angel. Then, the war is taken to Earth, and...
Anyway, this is not an argument either of us will "win", so you can continue with it if you must but you will never move my position.
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XBL Gamertag: GVArcian
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Post by Arcian on Sept 3, 2016 20:57:47 GMT
Besides the fact that the Reapers are the only ones who could plausibly have the tech to actually get there? <<<<<<<<<<(0)>>>>>>>>>> That's the thing. If Bio truly wants to explain how we got there, then the studio must squash that tech limitation. Since we are in Andromeda, the tech "limits" were overcome. Some, I'm sure, will gnash their teeth at the 'solution". Remember that in a sci-fi universe, there are no limitations except for what your imagination can provide.That's 100% wrong. Sci-fi is about exploring plausible technologies and futures with at least some degree of scientific accuracy. Regardless, a work being set in a speculative genre, whether sci-fi or fantasy, is not a free pass for that work to ignore its own rules - that's what you seem to forget... or ignore... that is, people like Iakus and myself aren't inventing new rules to limit BioWare, we're asking them to respect THEIR OWN rules, which they themselves decided upon long ago. In this case, BioWare decided to tell us, through the codex in Mass Effect 1, that intragalactic travel is super-prohibitive without the Mass Relays (which is one of the reasons no one bothered to find Ilos until Shepard did). Using the power of logic, if intragalactic travel - which is much, much easier than intergalactic travel - is already borderline impossible without the Mass Relays, intergalactic travel is DEFINITELY impossible. I want to reiterate once again, this isn't me or Iakus or anyone else making this up, this is BioWare's own rule that they established 8 years ago when they made the first game. If they wanted intergalactic travel to be possible, they wouldn't have included that bit in ME1's codex. That's because the original writers never intended for the galactic species to make a journey to Andromeda in the same time period the original trilogy takes place. BioWare breaking their own rules and sending Milky Wayians to Andromeda despite the internal rules of the story telling us it's impossible is the video game equivalent of football players ignoring the rules of football. Football is only football BECAUSE of the rules, not in spite of them - otherwise you could, for example, pick up the ball with your hands, which would make the name football completely meaningless. If anything, those who watched the Twilight Zone should be aware of this.
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Post by Iakus on Sept 3, 2016 23:57:41 GMT
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but claiming that the Lord of the Rings is in no way allegorical to the myth of Christ is simply ignoring the obvious. It is apparent moreso in The Silmarillion. The Silmarillion being the War in Heaven, with Morgoth the fallen angel. Then, the war is taken to Earth, and... Anyway, this is not an argument either of us will "win", so you can continue with it if you must but you will never move my position. Yes Eru Iluvatar was supposed to be God, and the Valar and Maiar were angels (some of whom were mistaken for gods in other eras. But that is because Tolkien was devoutly Catholic and Middle Earth is supposed to be our world's pre-history. An imaginary time when there were elves and trolls and dragons which became our fairy-tales. So he created a theology and pantheon that would not be inconsistent with his beliefs, but clothed in a sort of soft mysticism. Melkor is not supposed to be some allegorical symbol for Lucifer, Melkor was Lucifer, simply known by a different name. Numenor is not an a symbol for Atlantis, Numenor is the "true story" of the island's fate. There are Christian elements in LOTR (sin and redemption, for example) because of this, but there are no "Christ-like metaphors" because it is set long, long before Christ.
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Post by goishen on Sept 4, 2016 0:31:08 GMT
That's like saying the antagonist of every story ever created is lucifer is some form. No, just no.
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Post by kizanare on Sept 4, 2016 1:32:53 GMT
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but claiming that the Lord of the Rings is in no way allegorical to the myth of Christ is simply ignoring the obvious. It is apparent moreso in The Silmarillion. The Silmarillion being the War in Heaven, with Morgoth the fallen angel. Then, the war is taken to Earth, and... Anyway, this is not an argument either of us will "win", so you can continue with it if you must but you will never move my position. Yes Eru Iluvatar was supposed to be God, and the Valar and Maiar were angels (some of whom were mistaken for gods in other eras. But that is because Tolkien was devoutly Catholic and Middle Earth is supposed to be our world's pre-history. An imaginary time when there were elves and trolls and dragons which became our fairy-tales. So he created a theology and pantheon that would not be inconsistent with his beliefs, but clothed in a sort of soft mysticism. Melkor is not supposed to be some allegorical symbol for Lucifer, Melkor was Lucifer, simply known by a different name. Numenor is not an a symbol for Atlantis, Numenor is the "true story" of the island's fate. There are Christian elements in LOTR (sin and redemption, for example) because of this, but there are no "Christ-like metaphors" because it is set long, long before Christ. I was under the impression Tolkien fit into like a Middle Earth Nieblungian middle ages thingamabob, not all the way ago prehistory. Tolkien striving that far back? Meh, that's out of his wheelhouse, to be frank. The fact that you guys arguing about it just illustrates the point, really couldn't stand the Simallirion, felt like it took the vagueness and other issues of LOTR and cranked it up to 11 so it's basically just gibberish. And, uh, not sure why we're arguing about this here, I guess.
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Post by mrjack on Sept 4, 2016 8:01:25 GMT
OK so I managed to read up to page 8 before deciding enough was enough. I was a regular on the old BSN and have been lurking here the last couple of weeks to see if it would be a good fit. Turns out this will be both my first and last post here. The vast majority of posters just seem to hold views that are so diametrically opposed to my own that we can't exist in the same space. We might have overcome our differences if we had a shared love of Mass Effect or other BW games but we don't even have that as the general consensus seems to be that BW and their games are shit and the next one will be too. So I guess I'll take my SJW, Mass-Effect-loving arse and bugger off somewhere to wait for the game in solitude. I'm sure you'll miss me P.S. - If you want to see what real racism looks like, try reading the Shoutbox. Take it easy, J
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Post by Obsidian Gryphon on Sept 4, 2016 8:42:42 GMT
I'm already fatigued and have no faith after ME3 so nothing has changed. Not pre-ordering. I will watch Twitch stream of the game and decide if it's any good. If it's ok, then I wait for a price drop before buying.
Nowadays I'm watching game streaming, observing market practices of the company and decide if the title is even worth opening my wallet.
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Post by fchopin on Sept 4, 2016 8:53:04 GMT
Turns out this will be both my first and last post here. Sorry to see you go. It would be nice if you posted what you found objectionable in the first 8 pages so we can compare. Myself and many others said that we would wait and see how the game turns out and i see nothing wrong with that.
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Post by Sartoz on Sept 4, 2016 11:40:53 GMT
<<<<<<<<<<(0)>>>>>>>>>> That's the thing. If Bio truly wants to explain how we got there, then the studio must squash that tech limitation. Since we are in Andromeda, the tech "limits" were overcome. Some, I'm sure, will gnash their teeth at the 'solution". Remember that in a sci-fi universe, there are no limitations except for what your imagination can provide.That's 100% wrong. Sci-fi is about exploring plausible technologies and futures with at least some degree of scientific accuracy. Regardless, a work being set in a speculative genre, whether sci-fi or fantasy, is not a free pass for that work to ignore its own rules - that's what you seem to forget... or ignore... that is, people like Iakus and myself aren't inventing new rules to limit BioWare, we're asking them to respect THEIR OWN rules, which they themselves decided upon long ago. <<<<<<<<<<(0)>>>>>>>>>> Bio, according to you, broke their own limitations regarding Intergalactic travel. Yet, keep in mind that super-prohibitive in not the same as impossible. One could argue that when faced with extinction, super-prohibitives are no longer barriers. Nevertheless, we are there. Which means : 1.- The codex entries were wrong 2.- The codex is incomplete = the tech is/can be discovered / available 3.- They have an explanation -- currently unknown. I'm really not losing any sleep over this.
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Post by Sartoz on Sept 4, 2016 11:47:53 GMT
Not quite for me. I can see where your coming from, but I see all of this stuff as a watering down of the universe. Sure, NPCs like Krem may have a character, but the setting overall is now less nuanced. That's where I get annoyed. Compare DA:Origins/Awakening to DA:Inquisition. In the first game we had: Near human-level intelligent dogs in the form of the Mabari. Sylvans Golems Werewolves Awakened Dragons that possessed a high level of intelligence/cunning Intelligent spirits and demons that could talk, reason, and manipulate people Now look at the most recent game: Mabari are now just common dogs wondering the countryside Sylvans are nonexistent Golems are nonexistent Werewolves are nonexistent Awakened are nonexistent Dragons are just wild animals with wings and a breath weapon Spirits and Demons are just mindless monsters save for 2 very specific characters (who even then are more human than anything else). But we get to include notable examples of homosexual and transgendered characters; a human issue. Origins was far more diverse of a setting than Inquisition was IMO. In the first game, human and human-like perceptions, politics and issues were just a small part of a much larger whole. In the most recent game practically all of those non-human elements are gone and the setting is a human centric world in bad need of an exterminator. The same can be said of Mass Effect 1 vs. Mass Effect 3 I do admit that for a game largely about holes in the Veil causing all sorts of Fade creatures to wreak havoc, the lack of truly intelligent demon opponents is rather disappointing. I expected more of Pride demons than to be rift guardians. <<<<<<<<<<(0)>>>>>>>>>> And that's another reason why I'm unimpressed with DA:I. The rich Dragon Age world was turned into a SJW platform. I fear that ME:A may be more of the same. Andromeda and the Helius cluster races can be such a rich environment to explore.
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DoomsdayDevice
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Post by DoomsdayDevice on Sept 4, 2016 12:12:14 GMT
<<<<<<<<<<(0)>>>>>>>>>> I think it is the only option available to them. Besides, what's so ridiculous about it? Besides the fact that the Reapers are the only ones who could plausibly have the tech to actually get there? Exactly. The problem is the static build-up in drive cores when venturing into deep space. The races of the Milky Way don't have this technology. Without discharging, ship systems will get fried. The codex states this. Only Reapers do not appear to have to discharge static. So, if there's any one faction capable of going to Andromeda, it's the Reapers, not us. Also, if we can get there, then certainly the Reapers can. Aside from that, I think it's utterly laughable they need to move the franchise to a whole new galaxy because of the mess they made story-wise. What now? We're never going back to the Milky Way? We're going to be stuck in Andromeda? There's no other big galaxies to explore in the Local Cluster. Aside from Andromeda and the Milky Way there are only small ones. It would be relatively easy to make a direct sequel though. Indoctrination Theory. The Reapers weren't destroyed, the fight isn't over. So that would mean another game fighting the Reapers. I'd be all for it.
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Post by KaiserShep on Sept 4, 2016 12:34:42 GMT
Then again, I admit i'm biased towards the module style of campaigning; since Dragon Age II BioWare has started to get away from that and connecting everything bit by bit, which I personally like a lot. Maybe it is a change in style and tone, but it's not bring in real world issues for the sake of it, it's doing so with purpose to enrich its own world i'd argue, a quality that you are also looking for. Not quite for me. I can see where your coming from, but I see all of this stuff as a watering down of the universe. Sure, NPCs like Krem may have a character, but the setting overall is now less nuanced. That's where I get annoyed. Compare DA:Origins/Awakening to DA:Inquisition. In the first game we had: Near human-level intelligent dogs in the form of the Mabari. Sylvans Golems Werewolves Awakened Dragons that possessed a high level of intelligence/cunning Intelligent spirits and demons that could talk, reason, and manipulate people Now look at the most recent game: Mabari are now just common dogs wondering the countryside Sylvans are nonexistent Golems are nonexistent Werewolves are nonexistent Awakened are nonexistent Dragons are just wild animals with wings and a breath weapon Spirits and Demons are just mindless monsters save for 2 very specific characters (who even then are more human than anything else). But we get to include notable examples of homosexual and transgendered characters; a human issue. Origins was far more diverse of a setting than Inquisition was IMO. In the first game, human and human-like perceptions, politics and issues were just a small part of a much larger whole. In the most recent game practically all of those non-human elements are gone and the setting is a human centric world in bad need of an exterminator. The same can be said of Mass Effect 1 vs. Mass Effect 3 Well, there is that mabari that basically runs that little shop in the hissing wastes, so if we're going to do smart dog counts, it's just about even with both DA:O and DA2, since there's only ever 1 smart mabari in any of these games. I'll grant Sylvans, golems and werewolves, but I don't know if they really add nuance per se. Doesn't Corypheus count? I mean, he's still a darkspawn. Dragons have always been just wild animals with wings and a breath weapon. Some other character would just say that they're really intelligent, but never has a high dragon ever actually exhibited this trait in any game. I don't think the demon criticism counts if there's actual demons that manipulate people in the game. Envy certainly isn't human-like once its form is revealed (granted you have to do Champions of the Just to see it).
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Arcian
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Post by Arcian on Sept 4, 2016 16:39:04 GMT
That's 100% wrong. Sci-fi is about exploring plausible technologies and futures with at least some degree of scientific accuracy. Regardless, a work being set in a speculative genre, whether sci-fi or fantasy, is not a free pass for that work to ignore its own rules - that's what you seem to forget... or ignore... that is, people like Iakus and myself aren't inventing new rules to limit BioWare, we're asking them to respect THEIR OWN rules, which they themselves decided upon long ago. <<<<<<<<<<(0)>>>>>>>>>> Bio, according to you, broke their own limitations regarding Intergalactic travel. Yet, keep in mind that super-prohibitive in not the same as impossible. One could argue that when faced with extinction, super-prohibitives are no longer barriers. You misread, INTRAgalactic travel inside the galaxy is super-prohibitive, INTERgalactic travel between galaxies is impossible. A survival instinct can do many things but it can't override the laws of physics. Nevertheless, we are there. Which means : 1.- The codex entries were wrong 2.- The codex is incomplete = the tech is/can be discovered / available 3.- They have an explanation -- currently unknown. I'm really not losing any sleep over this. 4.- It's a plot hole because BioWare stopped giving a shit about being consistent and respecting their own lore. And of course they can discover the technology but not in the timespan of ME1-ME3. If the expedition started several centuries after ME3, there wouldn't be a problem.
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stysiaq
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Post by stysiaq on Sept 4, 2016 20:09:21 GMT
What are the BioWare's recent actions? I'n too drunk to read the thread atm.
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