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Post by General Mahad on Oct 31, 2023 23:58:28 GMT
Because it did not have "live service", Joplin already had one foot in its EA grave, when Bioware resumed work on Joplin after Andromeda's release in March 2017. EA made the "brilliant" decision to let Joplin twist in the wind for SIX months before yanking the plug on Joplin, and moving everyone to the sinking ship otherwise known as Anthem. Fast forward to 2021, and EA changes tack and allows DA4 to be single player again, after forcing work on "live service" Morrison for THREE years. Has any of the EA corporate "braintrust" responsible for that SIX years of whiplash been laid off? Unlikely, they were probably promoted.
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Post by colfoley on Nov 1, 2023 0:16:25 GMT
Because it did not have "live service", Joplin already had one foot in its EA grave, when Bioware resumed work on Joplin after Andromeda's release in March 2017. EA made the "brilliant" decision to let Joplin twist in the wind for SIX months before yanking the plug on Joplin, and moving everyone to the sinking ship otherwise known as Anthem. Fast forward to 2021, and EA changes tack and allows DA4 to be single player again, after forcing work on "live service" Morrison for THREE years. Has any of the EA corporate "braintrust" responsible for that SIX years of whiplash been laid off? honestly given what was happening Joplin would've likely both been live service and mp...at least having elements there of given that was the trend Bioware was going through at the time.
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Post by githcheater on Nov 1, 2023 1:00:27 GMT
EA yanked the plug on the Joplin, to go with Morrison because Joplin did not have live service.
"The story behind this reboot isn’t just a story of a game going through multiple iterations, as many games do. The Dragon Age 4 overhaul was a sign of BioWare’s troubles, and how the company has struggled in recent years to work on multiple projects at the same time. It was indicative of the tension between EA’s financial goals and what BioWare fans love about the studio’s games. It led to the departure of several key staff including veteran Dragon Age creative director Mike Laidlaw, and it led to today’s Dragon Age 4, whose developers hope to carefully straddle the line between storytelling and the “live service” that EA has pushed so hard over the past few years .(EA did not return a request for comment.)
Perhaps the saddest thing about Dragon Age 4’s cancellation in 2017 for members of the Dragon Age team was that this time, they thought they were getting it right. This time, they had a set of established tools. They had a feasible scope. They had ideas that excited the whole team. And they had leaders who said they were committed to avoiding the mistakes they’d made on Dragon Age: Inquisition.
But Anthem was on fire, and BioWare needed everyone to grab a hose."
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Post by warden on Nov 2, 2023 14:58:23 GMT
I said in the past, 2024 or 2025, but if rumors are to be believed, it's probably going to 2026, if there is nothing by then, seems like it will be time to pull the plug.
doesn't matter how much they delay, nothing good ever comes from dev hell.
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Post by river82 on Nov 2, 2023 20:04:50 GMT
EA yanked the plug on the Joplin, to go with Morrison because Joplin did not have live service.
"The story behind this reboot isn’t just a story of a game going through multiple iterations, as many games do. The Dragon Age 4 overhaul was a sign of BioWare’s troubles, and how the company has struggled in recent years to work on multiple projects at the same time. It was indicative of the tension between EA’s financial goals and what BioWare fans love about the studio’s games. It led to the departure of several key staff including veteran Dragon Age creative director Mike Laidlaw, and it led to today’s Dragon Age 4, whose developers hope to carefully straddle the line between storytelling and the “live service” that EA has pushed so hard over the past few years .(EA did not return a request for comment.)
Perhaps the saddest thing about Dragon Age 4’s cancellation in 2017 for members of the Dragon Age team was that this time, they thought they were getting it right. This time, they had a set of established tools. They had a feasible scope. They had ideas that excited the whole team. And they had leaders who said they were committed to avoiding the mistakes they’d made on Dragon Age: Inquisition.
But Anthem was on fire, and BioWare needed everyone to grab a hose."
I was a bit unsure about how a game centred around heists would go, then I remembered that Cyberpunk's main missions are essentially extremely well detailed, fleshed out, reactive heists so now I think it could have been really fun. As to why Joplin failed it's probably half and half. Half EA's focus on live service which didn't change until after Fallen Order, and half Bioware utterly screwing up Anthem for years and refusing to let the good people at Austin, who actually have experience with live service gameplay, take the lead. Anthem was mismanaged for years and years. And years. And years.
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Little Pumpkin
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: Beerfish
XBL Gamertag: Beerfish77
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Post by Beerfish on Nov 2, 2023 20:46:47 GMT
lol, greatest poll of all time.
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Post by githcheater on Nov 3, 2023 1:36:41 GMT
double post deleted
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Post by githcheater on Nov 3, 2023 1:54:12 GMT
EA yanked the plug on the Joplin, to go with Morrison because Joplin did not have live service.
"The story behind this reboot isn’t just a story of a game going through multiple iterations, as many games do. The Dragon Age 4 overhaul was a sign of BioWare’s troubles, and how the company has struggled in recent years to work on multiple projects at the same time. It was indicative of the tension between EA’s financial goals and what BioWare fans love about the studio’s games. It led to the departure of several key staff including veteran Dragon Age creative director Mike Laidlaw, and it led to today’s Dragon Age 4, whose developers hope to carefully straddle the line between storytelling and the “live service” that EA has pushed so hard over the past few years .(EA did not return a request for comment.)
Perhaps the saddest thing about Dragon Age 4’s cancellation in 2017 for members of the Dragon Age team was that this time, they thought they were getting it right. This time, they had a set of established tools. They had a feasible scope. They had ideas that excited the whole team. And they had leaders who said they were committed to avoiding the mistakes they’d made on Dragon Age: Inquisition.
But Anthem was on fire, and BioWare needed everyone to grab a hose."
I was a bit unsure about how a game centred around heists would go, then I remembered that Cyberpunk's main missions are essentially extremely well detailed, fleshed out, reactive heists so now I think it could have been really fun. As to why Joplin failed it's probably half and half. Half EA's focus on live service which didn't change until after Fallen Order, and half Bioware utterly screwing up Anthem for years and refusing to let the good people at Austin, who actually have experience with live service gameplay, take the lead. Anthem was mismanaged for years and years. And years. And years. Starting with the ME3 ending controversy, and continuing with Andromeda & Anthem development, Much of Senior Bioware management seemed to have a counterproductive "command and control" management style, which of course was perpretated by EA ...
kotaku.com/how-biowares-anthem-went-wrong-1833731964 Anthem’s lack of vision in Edmonton was even more pronounced in Austin, whose developers suddenly found themselves working on a game they didn’t quite understand.
Even when they did figure out what was happening, it felt to BioWare Austin staff like they were the grunts. Developers who worked both in Austin and Edmonton say the messaging was that Edmonton would come up with the vision and Austin would execute on it, which caused tension between the two studios. BioWare Austin developers recall offering feedback only to get dismissed or ignored by BioWare Edmonton’s senior leadership team, a process that was particularly frustrating for those who had already shipped a big online game, Star Wars: The Old Republic, and learned from its mistakes.
When Mark Darrah joined the project in the fall of 2017, he began pushing the Anthem team toward one goal: Ship the game.
“The good thing about Mark is that he would just wrangle everybody and make decisions,” said one former BioWare developer. “That was the thing that the team lacked—nobody was making decisions. It was deciding by panel. They’d almost get to a decision and then somebody would go ‘But what about this?’ We were stagnant, not moving anywhere.”
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beez nuts
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 459 Likes: 1,506
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beez nuts
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Post by Sandetiger on Nov 3, 2023 4:43:49 GMT
When Mark Darrah joined the project in the fall of 2017, he began pushing the Anthem team toward one goal: Ship the game. “The good thing about Mark is that he would just wrangle everybody and make decisions,” said one former BioWare developer. “That was the thing that the team lacked—nobody was making decisions. It was deciding by panel. They’d almost get to a decision and then somebody would go ‘But what about this?’ We were stagnant, not moving anywhere.” His whole entire YouTube channel is pretty much dedicated to How To Make Decisions And Make Things Happen, and I really appreciate that. Every team benefits from having someone whose job is to push to make decisions and achieve goals. Ironically, re: a '...counterproductive "command and control" management style..' Mark's video this week was literally about this, and the ideas of soft power vs hard power and how to use them effectively. lol
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Post by githcheater on Nov 4, 2023 0:24:59 GMT
OH noes ... as a consultant, Mark says he does not have any hard power, and cannot stop a worker from driving off a cliff.
Time to start jumping to conclusions??? LOL
So Mark will use his soft power to influence and encourage making decisions and achieving goals ... and hopefully nudge DAD towards a satisfactory release with everyone pulling to the same goal.
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Hrungr
Twitter Guru
ღ N-Special
More coffee...? More coffee.
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Hrungr
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: Hrungr
Prime Posts: 18,258
Prime Likes: 65,767
Posts: 31,198 Likes: 114,166
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Post by Hrungr on Nov 5, 2023 18:18:32 GMT
OH noes ... as a consultant, Mark says he does not have any hard power, and cannot stop a worker from driving off a cliff. Time to start jumping to conclusions??? LOL I just watched that video this morning, and admittedly... that did sound like he was talking about DAD hitting another bump in the road. Yeah, I've given up trying to predict when DAD will land. Right now, I'm just hoping it'll have a little breathing room from any other major RPG releases (eg. Assassin's Creed: Red).
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Post by colfoley on Nov 5, 2023 19:20:10 GMT
He did talk about how to use soft power to avoid such things right after though.
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Post by Sartoz on Nov 6, 2023 0:58:31 GMT
Soft Power / Hard Power .. No Power.... seems like Bio is suffering from its curse of being unable to make decisions. I also believe that declaring Alpha was premature... the game state was not Alpha ready. Oh, yeah, one could "play DA4 from start to finish" but had no balance, untested skill sets, untested progression mechanics, along with the submarine ping whenever am Elf Root was spotted (sarcasm here).
One can argue that post Alpha = polishing phase..... my thoughts is that the implementation of progression and skill tree is more complex than anticipated leading to the current situation of "what do we do now?". Hence, to paraphrase a bunny we all know "Oh dear. I'm late, I'm late... gotta hurry, which path do I take, left, right oh dear I'm late"..
Bio, appears to always prioritize graphic presentation first and play mechanics second. And now? same old, same old (all conjecture but evidence suggests it)..
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Post by colfoley on Nov 6, 2023 1:23:37 GMT
Soft Power / Hard Power .. No Power.... seems like Bio is suffering from its curse of being unable to make decisions. I also believe that declaring Alpha was premature... the game state was not Alpha ready. Oh, yeah, one could "play DA4 from start to finish" but had no balance, untested skill sets, untested progression mechanics, along with the submarine ping whenever am Elf Root was spotted (sarcasm here).
One can argue that post Alpha = polishing phase..... my thoughts is that the implementation of progression and skill tree is more complex than anticipated leading to the current situation of "what do we do now?". Hence, to paraphrase a bunny we all know "Oh dear. I'm late, I'm late... gotta hurry, which path do I take, left, right oh dear I'm late"..
Bio, appears to always prioritize graphic presentation first and play mechanics second. And now? same old, same old (all conjecture but evidence suggests it)..
I think there is some legitimacy to the top given that BioWare has done something like that in the past. As for the understanding of what Alpha is though and where it is...well what you describe I am pretty confident is at least Alpha. That all the assets have been pretty much built and that you can play the game from beginning to end but they still need to be put together. Trying to think of a good cake metaphor I guess yeah probably baking the actual cake and watching it rise but you still need to let it cool and then put the other stuff on like frosting and what not. But things like balancing and trying to change numbers around and do polishing all sounds like it falls in the realm of where they should be.
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Post by Sartoz on Nov 6, 2023 1:46:16 GMT
Soft Power / Hard Power .. No Power.... seems like Bio is suffering from its curse of being unable to make decisions. I also believe that declaring Alpha was premature... the game state was not Alpha ready. Oh, yeah, one could "play DA4 from start to finish" but had no balance, untested skill sets, untested progression mechanics, along with the submarine ping whenever am Elf Root was spotted (sarcasm here).
One can argue that post Alpha = polishing phase..... my thoughts is that the implementation of progression and skill tree is more complex than anticipated leading to the current situation of "what do we do now?". Hence, to paraphrase a bunny we all know "Oh dear. I'm late, I'm late... gotta hurry, which path do I take, left, right oh dear I'm late"..
Bio, appears to always prioritize graphic presentation first and play mechanics second. And now? same old, same old (all conjecture but evidence suggests it)..
I think there is some legitimacy to the top given that BioWare has done something like that in the past. As for the understanding of what Alpha is though and where it is...well what you describe I am pretty confident is at least Alpha. That all the assets have been pretty much built and that you can play the game from beginning to end but they still need to be put together. Trying to think of a good cake metaphor I guess yeah probably baking the actual cake and watching it rise but you still need to let it cool and then put the other stuff on like frosting and what not. But things like balancing and trying to change numbers around and do polishing all sounds like it falls in the realm of where they should be
And that's the problem. They are stuck sitting on the pot. Either take a dump or get off it. The should be is the equivalent of "unable to make decisions". The soft nudge approach simply does not work, imo. Ergo, delay, delay and more of it.
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Post by colfoley on Nov 6, 2023 1:51:35 GMT
I think there is some legitimacy to the top given that BioWare has done something like that in the past. As for the understanding of what Alpha is though and where it is...well what you describe I am pretty confident is at least Alpha. That all the assets have been pretty much built and that you can play the game from beginning to end but they still need to be put together. Trying to think of a good cake metaphor I guess yeah probably baking the actual cake and watching it rise but you still need to let it cool and then put the other stuff on like frosting and what not. But things like balancing and trying to change numbers around and do polishing all sounds like it falls in the realm of where they should be
And that's the problem. They are stuck sitting on the pot. Either take a dump or get off it. The should be is the equivalent of "unable to make decisions". The soft nudge approach simply does not work, imo. Ergo, delay, delay and more of it.
You seem to be confusing things. Soft power is that comes from respect and how you operate, hard power operates from title or position and thus soft power if properly utilized tends to work far more effectively then hard power. Which I also think has been part of BioWare's problems. While its hard to say seems there has been a lot of people just throwing around their weight 'because I am the boss' especially when dealings between Edmenton and Austin. And then from there it also does not matter what power you use whether its hard power or soft power if no one is making any kinds of decisions.
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Twitter Guru
ღ N-Special
More coffee...? More coffee.
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Hrungr
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: Hrungr
Prime Posts: 18,258
Prime Likes: 65,767
Posts: 31,198 Likes: 114,166
inherit
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Post by Hrungr on Nov 6, 2023 2:01:29 GMT
He did talk about how to use soft power to avoid such things right after though. Right after saying he watched them drive off a cliff, despite his protests, and now trying to help them recover...
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Post by Sartoz on Nov 6, 2023 3:36:07 GMT
He did talk about how to use soft power to avoid such things right after though. Right after saying he watched them drive off a cliff, despite his protests, and now trying to help them recover...
Hm... I believe they believe they are under no obligation to listen. And, so, As the World Turns.......
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Post by river82 on Nov 6, 2023 20:18:12 GMT
He did talk about how to use soft power to avoid such things right after though. Right after saying he watched them drive off a cliff, despite his protests, and now trying to help them recover... I'm imagining Mark with the AngryCat face when that happened
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Post by dadithinkimgay on Nov 6, 2023 20:37:52 GMT
He did talk about how to use soft power to avoid such things right after though. Right after saying he watched them drive off a cliff, despite his protests, and now trying to help them recover... I do want to point out that Mark has stated that DAD isn’t the only game he’s consulting for. And in this instance, it would make more sense for the BioWare team to listen to him over other teams as they were previous colleagues and know that his advice is sound. So hopefully he’s referring to a different game he’s working on.
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Post by fairdragon on Nov 7, 2023 11:53:39 GMT
If this pole had been accurate, we would be discussing the release date of DA5 by now... To be fair, if Anthem didn't need rescuing then Dreadwolf would have been released around 2019 or 2020. But game development was suspended for Anthem for a year and then restarted from scratch. This makes me sad 2020 would have been a perfect year. And i loved Joplins concept.
The new EA/Bioware don't want my money. I bought Pathfinder instead.
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Post by fairdragon on Nov 7, 2023 11:55:59 GMT
Because it did not have "live service", Joplin already had one foot in its EA grave, when Bioware resumed work on Joplin after Andromeda's release in March 2017. EA made the "brilliant" decision to let Joplin twist in the wind for SIX months before yanking the plug on Joplin, and moving everyone to the sinking ship otherwise known as Anthem. Fast forward to 2021, and EA changes tack and allows DA4 to be single player again, after forcing work on "live service" Morrison for THREE years. Has any of the EA corporate "braintrust" responsible for that SIX years of whiplash been laid off? good question Mark said in his youtube video to DA2 that the management of EA change a lot. Maybe that is the problem.
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Post by Sartoz on Nov 12, 2023 12:18:10 GMT
Because it did not have "live service", Joplin already had one foot in its EA grave, when Bioware resumed work on Joplin after Andromeda's release in March 2017. EA made the "brilliant" decision to let Joplin twist in the wind for SIX months before yanking the plug on Joplin, and moving everyone to the sinking ship otherwise known as Anthem. Fast forward to 2021, and EA changes tack and allows DA4 to be single player again, after forcing work on "live service" Morrison for THREE years. Has any of the EA corporate "braintrust" responsible for that SIX years of whiplash been laid off? good question Mark said in his youtube video to DA2 that the management of EA change a lot. Maybe that is the problem.
Mark, if anyone recalls, was the executive producer of one famous fiasco called Anthem. To be fair, I can't remember if Mark was the EP from the start of the Anthem project or became the EP after Anthem was near its death throes. Regardless, he was at the helm at one point and Anthem still died. With that preamble out of the way, I cannot see Mark as a saviour, especially if Bio continues to put their testes in the fire.
Decision making at EA is at the level of "where do we want the company to be in 5 years?" and at the current "market forces" regarding industry gaming trends. The latter, I believe, forced EA to pivot its decision(s). So, no one got fired.
Remove those "lost years" due to EA "interference" and DA4 development is on track (I think it's better) if we apply a 5 year development cycle. ME5, then, is due sometime in '28-'29, if we remove the layoffs from the equation and the DA game is launched in 2024.
It's my belief that if a game dev cycle is shortened to 3-4 years, the launched game design will still be within the original industry gaming trend decision. After that, the publisher will miss the boat because the gaming trend moves on.
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Post by githcheater on Nov 12, 2023 17:04:08 GMT
good question Mark said in his youtube video to DA2 that the management of EA change a lot. Maybe that is the problem.
Mark, if anyone recalls, was the executive producer of one famous fiasco called Anthem. To be fair, I can't remember if Mark was the EP from the start of the Anthem project or became the EP after Anthem was near its death throes. Regardless, he was at the helm at one point and Anthem still died. With that preamble out of the way, I cannot see Mark as a saviour, especially if Bio continues to put their testes in the fire.
Decision making at EA is at the level of "where do we want the company to be in 5 years?" and at the current "market forces" regarding industry gaming trends. The latter, I believe, forced EA to pivot its decision(s). So, no one got fired.
Remove those "lost years" due to EA "interference" and DA4 development is on track (I think it's better) if we apply a 5 year development cycle. ME5, then, is due sometime in '28-'29, if we remove the layoffs from the equation and the DA game is launched in 2024.
It's my belief that if a game dev cycle is shortened to 3-4 years, the launched game design will still be within the original industry gaming trend decision. After that, the publisher will miss the boat because the gaming trend moves on.
"When Mark Darrah joined the project in the fall of 2017, he began pushing the Anthem team toward one goal: Ship the game."
Whether or not DAD fails. Mark was bought on as a consultant to push decisions and get DAD shipped ... we shall see ... hopefully by Spring 2025 ... and in a shipable state that exceeds the usual low standards of EA.
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Post by fairdragon on Nov 13, 2023 9:52:54 GMT
good question Mark said in his youtube video to DA2 that the management of EA change a lot. Maybe that is the problem.
Mark, if anyone recalls, was the executive producer of one famous fiasco called Anthem. To be fair, I can't remember if Mark was the EP from the start of the Anthem project or became the EP after Anthem was near its death throes. Regardless, he was at the helm at one point and Anthem still died. With that preamble out of the way, I cannot see Mark as a saviour, especially if Bio continues to put their testes in the fire.
Decision making at EA is at the level of "where do we want the company to be in 5 years?" and at the current "market forces" regarding industry gaming trends. The latter, I believe, forced EA to pivot its decision(s). So, no one got fired.
Remove those "lost years" due to EA "interference" and DA4 development is on track (I think it's better) if we apply a 5 year development cycle. ME5, then, is due sometime in '28-'29, if we remove the layoffs from the equation and the DA game is launched in 2024.
It's my belief that if a game dev cycle is shortened to 3-4 years, the launched game design will still be within the original industry gaming trend decision. After that, the publisher will miss the boat because the gaming trend moves on.
I think Bioware and EA have make mistakes. Bioware always looked for current trends and forgott to check whether the game they are imposing the trend on can actually achieve that. And EA to demand something from a company that doesn't necessarily bring any benefits to their games. I am not sure if both companies can learn from their mistakes but i hope so.
I think you are right 3-4 years are the best way to go: DAO 2009. If EA haven't call for a game as Mark said in his DA2 video. DAI would have been out in 2012-13. Then DAD would have been out in 2015 - 17. Both would have been different games than what we have get.
Joplin 2020 would have been good so. And then the poll would have been a little bit optimistic but not that out of place.
But i try to be positive and hope for DAD in 2024. And DA5 in 2027-28.
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