The Elder King
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Post by The Elder King on Feb 22, 2017 12:01:36 GMT
It was moronic to reveal it. It kills a significant amount of the dramatic tension necessary for storytelling. I also disagree with the assertion that it's better in the long run if companions can't die, in part because of the dramatic tension lost but also all the nuance and permutations created was part of what made the trilogy worth replaying over and over. Now, I don't know what to think moving forward. There can still be nuances and permutations, just not about squadmates. I agree on revealing it beforehand though
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Post by agentmrorange on Feb 22, 2017 12:14:25 GMT
All I hear is and argument for a new protagonist and new companion for each game.
I find the companion of the mass effect series to be inferior to dragon age series. since they seem to lack any agency for themselves and are automatically assign to be your friend no matter what you do. they will not turn against you with the exception of genocide. companion will always like the protagonist. not only are they taking away player agency they are also removing the companion agency too. which makes the relationships meaningless with no other outcome there is little reason to care about them as they can't die so no matter what happens there is no reason to worry about what you do
basically it is removing consequences form the player actions You see this illustrates one of the reasons why I'm not sorry to see it go. That idea that unless it's life or death it doesn't count. It is perfectly possible for people to hate everything you do, turn against you, like you, love you or loathe you without it requiring Someone May Die! I'm not averse to someone occassionally dying, but if you're writing a story and it seems everything is meaningless without the spectre of death then you've turned into a Christmas episode of Eastenders and it's time to hit the brakes, sit down and have a nice cup of tea and a biscuit. Ooh and that articulates to me why I loathe the who will die routine. It's soap opera ratings grab fare. My grandmother used to watch every one of those going when I was a kid, and my mother still inflicts them on me every Christmas. I used to hide from them in computer games, I don't need it becoming endemic here too. I really don't care about the life or death aspect of it but the fact it take agency away form the characters and the player. and remove a form of consequences form the player actions. as you pointed out there are may shapes and forms those consequences can take not all of them have to lead to death. the problem I have is that the mass effect series doesn't do any of those things with the companions. having a companion hate me so much that they leave or betray me or have their dialogue change to reflect that they don't like me would be great. but it's not going to happen no matter what you do the companions aren't going to betray you or hate you and your actions can't get them killed. so why should I worry about them or what choices I make. with regards to the companoins companion death was the only negative consequences we had with our companions and now that's gone. I would like to see more negative consequences with our companions besides death.
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Post by helios969 on Feb 22, 2017 12:14:39 GMT
It was moronic to reveal it. It kills a significant amount of the dramatic tension necessary for storytelling. I also disagree with the assertion that it's better in the long run if companions can't die, in part because of the dramatic tension lost but also all the nuance and permutations created was part of what made the trilogy worth replaying over and over. Now, I don't know what to think moving forward. There can still be nuances and permutations, just not about squadmates. I agree on revealing it beforehand though I'm not saying companions have to die. That's as arbitrary as can't die. Nobody wants a suicide mission recycled in every game, nor does it have to be an Ash/Kaiden type decision, but the idea of a squaddie being able to die because I f*ck up is appealing to me. And it's not like I'm opposed to being able to save everyone if I handle things correctly. I do hope, in the least, that companions will bail on you if they oppose you philosophically or if you ignore/don't utilize them in game. And even better gaming mechanic would be if squadmates could get serious injured on missions when you are inappropriately leveled/equiped...resulting in not being able to use that companion for X number of missions.
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Post by vonuber on Feb 22, 2017 12:18:11 GMT
Not having them die in this game can potentially make their deaths in subsequent ones more impactful.
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Post by kumazan on Feb 22, 2017 12:27:00 GMT
It baffles me to no end that they casually revealed this, and yet they just can't talk about the CC or even tried to keep Ryder's casual clothing secret until a twitter user gently reminded them that they were offering one casual outfit as a preorder bonus. Other than that, I have no problem with this, decisions can be impactful without any squadmate death, and this means more possibilities for subsequent games without need for Eezo ghosts.
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Post by Saboru on Feb 22, 2017 12:31:40 GMT
I really don't care about the life or death aspect of it but the fact it take agency away form the characters and the player. and remove a form of consequences form the player actions. as you pointed out there are may shapes and forms those consequences can take not all of them have to lead to death. the problem I have is that the mass effect series doesn't do any of those things with the companions. having a companion hate me so much that they leave or betray me or have their dialogue change to reflect that they don't like me would be great. but it's not going to happen no matter what you do the companions aren't going to betray you or hate you and your actions can't get them killed. so why should I worry about them or what choices I make. with regards to the companoins companion death was the only negative consequences we had with our companions and now that's gone. I would like to see more negative consequences with our companions besides death. You see I'd say companion death is more of the problem than the solution to what you're describing there. There's not been much middle ground where they could be a bit pissed off with you but stick around, be very pissed off with you and still stick around complaining loudly or be monumentally pissed off with you and bugger off. It's all been very dramatic 'You have betrayed me! Death!'. I don't like that emphasis on hate and betray, there's a helluva lot of dramatic middle ground, it doesn't always need to be a race to dial it up to 11. Honourable mention to Ashley in ME3 who was noticably grumpy with you, but could be talked down, although even that came with an 11 option.
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Post by fenris on Feb 22, 2017 12:31:58 GMT
Because BioWare made all of these squadmates optional, it did not make sense to invest money in characters who might be dead for 50% of the player base. Not only do I disagree with this, but I think it cost them money. It IS possible and worthwhile to invest in characters who might die... Because it will totally shit load increase the amount of replayability for the WHOLE trilogy! I mean, If I knew that Samara had a large part in ME3, I'd totally replay ME2 and take her instead of Morinth, just to see what happens. If making sure character lived would replace possible squad mates in ME3, people would want to play ALL options! Lets say if Jacob survived in ME2, he'd replace James, but if he didn't, you'd get James instead... That would totally increase the replayability of the entire franchise!
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Post by corpusdei on Feb 22, 2017 12:31:58 GMT
Mordin begs to differ - one of the best characters in ME3 and yet he might not even be there... so it can be done.
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The Elder King
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Post by The Elder King on Feb 22, 2017 12:37:50 GMT
Because BioWare made all of these squadmates optional, it did not make sense to invest money in characters who might be dead for 50% of the player base. Not only do I disagree with this, but I think it cost them money. It IS possible and worthwhile to invest in characters who might die... Because it will totally shit load increase the amount of replayability for the WHOLE trilogy! I mean, If I knew that Samara had a large part in ME3, I'd totally replay ME2 and take her instead of Morinth, just to see what happens. If making sure character lived would replace possible squad mates in ME3, people would want to play ALL options! Lets say if Jacob survived in ME2, he'd replace James, but if he didn't, you'd get James instead... That would totally increase the replayability of the entire franchise! That would require more money and resources to be spent, which Bioware didn't have. And likely won't. It's not a small investment. corpusdei: yeah, he and Legion had big roles, along with Garrus and Tali (although they were ME companions too). The others were left with abysmal roles. They can't do what they did to Mordin for every previous squadmate.
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Post by wolfsite on Feb 22, 2017 12:39:57 GMT
I still remember all the complaint threads on the old BSN when Thane died, despite the fact that he told you in ME2 he was going to die regardless.
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Post by fenris on Feb 22, 2017 12:41:58 GMT
That would require more money and resources to be spent, which Bioware didn't have. And likely won't. It's not a small investment. corpusdei : yeah, he and Legion had big roles, along with Garrus and Tali (although they were ME companions too). The others were left with abysmal roles. They can't do what they did to Mordin for every previous squadmate. Not saying it won't be expensive, just saying that the replayability value goes up (which means more DLC sales and game sales in general).
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2017 12:42:09 GMT
It's a false equivalence, since ME:A is not a part of a trilogy. ME:A (presumably) will be a self-contained story so there will be no potential character degradation because of the character being "optional" in subsequent games. In a self-contained story the character arc may end with this character dying. Wrex in ME1 can die on Virmire and it is done right; it's a logical consequence of your action. Then you get a reward of his character returning (provided that he lived) in ME2 and ME3 which feel good because he is not a companion - so his presence is limited enough to still feel natural. I'd also say that Kaiden Alenko in ME3 still feels like Kaiden from ME1. Ash loosing her character to some stupid drunk jokes and one-liners is just a fault of BioWare writers, not the fact that she is allowed to die in the game one. So I disagree with you on that also. The decision to keep all the cast of ME:A alive is not inherently bad or good; the decision to casually reveal it is bad. That just tells me that the characters will NEVER be in a situation of true danger and peril. I'd still want the characters to be able to die, not only as an option to "get rid of" ones I will find annoying but as a player to feel rewarded for making right choices that kept my team alive and feel the emotional impact and regret for making (knowingly or not) the bad ones. But it's the creator's story to tell, and if the story doesn't naturally go into those places then there are no reasons for them to be there just for the sake of it. It's worth pointing out that just because there isn't a planned "trilogy" does not mean there won't be a sequel. To the contrary, Mac Walters has more or less confirmed there will be a sequel to Andromeda. He's even gone as far as saying that this game will not be the end of the Ryder story. So, I believe it's inaccurate to consider this a "self-contained story," even if it doesn't necessarily need to continue like the previous games. BioWare is leaving their options open. My point was that Ash has no actual depth in terms of dialogue on the ship in ME3, compared to the other companions. I was merely stating that any depth was replaced with one-liners and the drunken stupor likely because BioWare wasn't going to invest more time and money in a potentially dead character. Of course, it was BioWare's choice to come up with the few lines that Ash did have on the ship. I think the ME3 problem with Ash's character is more to them not really knowing how to further her specific character traits within the context of the story being told in ME3. The story just wasn't conducive to taking the pseudo-racist aspects of her character to full development. Kaidan's biotics background was more conducive to just being woven into in the narrative of ME3's story... without overriding it. Had they fully developed Ashley's "racism" and religious tendencies, it would have overtaken the made story; so they opted to downplay it and that unfortunately reduced her the one-liners and "party-girl" behavior that seems so out of character with the Ashley they started to develop in ME1. I think is was less about the money and more about how her specific character just didn't fit in with the overall direction they wanted to take in the 3rd story. That 3rd installment just could not go in ALL directions at once and there was such a variety of DIFFERENT characters that might or might not be brought forward by the player.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 22, 2017 12:42:48 GMT
My biggest problem with ME2 was why have 12 squadmates when only 8 are needed to complete the mission with everyone surviving. I would have included mandatory deaths for the suicide mission. I would like to have ME2 squadmates on the roster in ME3, but that can't happen since all might be dead. They add Garrus and Tali to the roster. Garrus adds nothing to ME3 and Tali didn't need to be a squadmate. I guess both were on the roster because they were in ME1.
With the squadmates in the Andromeda game. It would be nice to have my Ryder be the only one alive at the end of the game. At the end she/he lights up a cigar with a smile on her/his face. That won't happen unfortunately. Too bad.
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The Elder King
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Post by The Elder King on Feb 22, 2017 12:44:33 GMT
That would require more money and resources to be spent, which Bioware didn't have. And likely won't. It's not a small investment. corpusdei : yeah, he and Legion had big roles, along with Garrus and Tali (although they were ME companions too). The others were left with abysmal roles. They can't do what they did to Mordin for every previous squadmate. Not saying it won't be expensive, just saying that the replayability value goes up (which means more DLC sales and game sales in general). Of course it'd mean more replayabilty. the same goes for many other features not present. A game is made by compromising between the ideas and features that the devs they want to implement and the budget at disposal. I'm not sure it'd affect sales, since the the vast majority of people that play games don't do a second playthrough of it.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Feb 22, 2017 12:45:43 GMT
Not only do I disagree with this, but I think it cost them money. It IS possible and worthwhile to invest in characters who might die... Because it will totally shit load increase the amount of replayability for the WHOLE trilogy! I mean, If I knew that Samara had a large part in ME3, I'd totally replay ME2 and take her instead of Morinth, just to see what happens. If making sure character lived would replace possible squad mates in ME3, people would want to play ALL options! Lets say if Jacob survived in ME2, he'd replace James, but if he didn't, you'd get James instead... That would totally increase the replayability of the entire franchise! That would require more money and resources to be spent, which Bioware didn't have. And likely won't. It's not a small investment. corpusdei : yeah, he and Legion had big roles, along with Garrus and Tali (although they were ME companions too). The others were left with abysmal roles. They can't do what they did to Mordin for every previous squadmate. Indeed. To try and account for every single possibility and combination of dead or alive companions is financially unwieldy. BioWare doesn't have that kind of budget nor do they have that kind of time. It's simply unrealistic and never going to happen. I still remember all the complaint threads on the old BSN when Thane died, despite the fact that he told you in ME2 he was going to die regardless. I think the "shock" was more so how he died and not that he was going to die. Of course, there was always that little glimmer of hope that maybe there would be a cure to save him from his inevitable fate.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2017 12:47:22 GMT
My biggest problem with ME2 was why have 12 squadmates when only 8 are needed to complete the mission with everyone surviving. I would have included mandatory deaths for the suicide mission. I would like to have ME2 squadmates on the roster in ME3, but that can't happen since all might be dead. They add Garrus and Tali to the roster. Garrus adds nothing to ME3 and Tali didn't need to be a squadmate. I guess both were on the roster because they were in ME1. With the squadmates in the Andromeda game. It would be nice to have my Ryder be the only one alive at the end of the game. At the end she/he lights up a cigar with a smile on her/his face. That won't happen unfortunately. Too bad. With mandatory deaths, then the developer controls what sort of combinations of personalities need to go forward into the next part of their story. With ME2, because it was all optional, they had no control over that. Therefore, they just couldn't write any of those personalities into the main thrust of their story.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Feb 22, 2017 12:52:49 GMT
My biggest problem with ME2 was why have 12 squadmates when only 8 are needed to complete the mission with everyone surviving. I would have included mandatory deaths for the suicide mission. I would like to have ME2 squadmates on the roster in ME3, but that can't happen since all might be dead. They add Garrus and Tali to the roster. Garrus adds nothing to ME3 and Tali didn't need to be a squadmate. I guess both were on the roster because they were in ME1. With the squadmates in the Andromeda game. It would be nice to have my Ryder be the only one alive at the end of the game. At the end she/he lights up a cigar with a smile on her/his face. That won't happen unfortunately. Too bad. With mandatory deaths, then the developer controls what sort of combinations of personalities need to go forward into the next part of their story. With ME2, because it was all optional, they had no control over that. Therefore, they just couldn't write any of those personalities into the main thrust of their story. The obvious problem with mandatory deaths is there is no player agency to prevent it from happening. Especially if these mandatory deaths happened to be squadmates, I could see an outcry from the fan base. What if it was a LI? Or would you try and relegate mandatory deaths to "expendable squadmates"? That approach just doesn't seem any better than not allowing any of the companions to die. Both approaches take away player agency. At least with everybody surviving, you know there are future stories that can be told with those characters.
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Post by Saboru on Feb 22, 2017 13:02:46 GMT
Although, having said I understand the decision, the problem with discussing this in the context of the original trilogy is ME2 which is pretty much a worst case scenario. Lovely game, but a horrendous design for part two of this sort of trilogy. If it's just one or two Schrodinger characters per installment it's still a bit of a time/money sink, but a lot more manageable. And unless they start seriously popping the happy pills I can't see 'Anyone can live or die!' plus a massive character list plus an ongoing series ever seeming like a good idea again.
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Post by SKAR on Feb 22, 2017 13:02:49 GMT
None of our squadmates have the option to die in MEA and that's a good thing. www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2016/11/08/101-questions-and-answers-about-mass-effect-andromeda.aspx (Start at 4:27) Why, you ask? The moment any squadmate has the option to die is the moment that character is no longer integral to the plot going forward. Lets take every single companion of ME2 as a perfect example. If you chose, you could let the entire squad of the Normandy die. This required quite a bit of effort, from not doing loyalty missions, not upgrading the Normandy, and making sure to pair squadmates on the worst jobs that would get them killed during the Suicide Mission. Now, at first glance, you might think this level of player agency and choice is great. However, from a storytelling standpoint, it's actually incredibly terrible. Here's why: Every single squadmate in ME2 largely became irrelevant to the plot in ME3. Miranda, as my personal LI, was relegated to a largely minor role with barely any dialogue and screen time. Because BioWare made all of these squadmates optional, it did not make sense to invest money in characters who might be dead for 50% of the player base. We can also use Ashley as an example. Due to her being a potential casualty in ME1, if you agree to bring her aboard the Normandy in ME3, her amount of dialogue and interaction immediately ends (largely becoming one-liners and drunken stupors). It's really only during the first half of the game that Ash gets any kind of quality character development. But, it's clear that her potential death made her less of a priority than someone like Liara, who couldn't die. This is why Liara had the most character development and even the best romance scenes! Sure, it's interesting and can provide new dynamics as well as moral dilemmas if a companion has to die. Unfortunately, the level of worth to that companion immediately dissipates as BioWare cannot write a character into the main plot who could potentially be dead. Thus, any potentially dead companion is creatively dead from a storytelling standpoint and no longer can really offer anything to the experience. There's obviously no risk if none of our companions can die, but at least our favorite companion doesn't disappear into obscurity as a result! I agree with 90% of that.
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Post by corpusdei on Feb 22, 2017 13:09:35 GMT
Not only do I disagree with this, but I think it cost them money. It IS possible and worthwhile to invest in characters who might die... Because it will totally shit load increase the amount of replayability for the WHOLE trilogy! I mean, If I knew that Samara had a large part in ME3, I'd totally replay ME2 and take her instead of Morinth, just to see what happens. If making sure character lived would replace possible squad mates in ME3, people would want to play ALL options! Lets say if Jacob survived in ME2, he'd replace James, but if he didn't, you'd get James instead... That would totally increase the replayability of the entire franchise! ... corpusdei : yeah, he and Legion had big roles, along with Garrus and Tali (although they were ME companions too). The others were left with abysmal roles. They can't do what they did to Mordin for every previous squadmate. They don't really need to - I didn't really have any problems with major/minor companion characters. The argument that "because character X can die, they can't develop the character" doesn't really hold water - there are enough examples throughout Mass Effect series to prove otherwise. Saying "because everyone could die, BioWare doesn't have the resources to full develop every character (and their stand-ins)" would be more accurate... but is that a problem?
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Post by The Elder King on Feb 22, 2017 13:15:14 GMT
... corpusdei : yeah, he and Legion had big roles, along with Garrus and Tali (although they were ME companions too). The others were left with abysmal roles. They can't do what they did to Mordin for every previous squadmate. They don't really need to - I didn't really have any problems with major/minor companion characters. The argument that "because character X can die, they can't develop the character" doesn't really hold water - there are enough examples throughout Mass Effect series to prove otherwise. Saying "because everyone could die, BioWare doesn't have the resources to full develop every character (and their stand-ins)" would be more accurate... but is that a problem? For many, yes. There where many discussions about it before and after ME3.
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Post by I'm Not Dead Just Yet on Feb 22, 2017 13:18:48 GMT
Come on OP, spoilers!
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Post by Revan Reborn on Feb 22, 2017 13:27:38 GMT
Apologies if I let the "cat out of the bag." After three months of this being accessible information (with various new sites reporting on it), I assumed anybody who bothered to stay informed about MEA likely was already aware of this reality. My mistake.
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inherit
3012
0
588
I'm Not Dead Just Yet
405
Jan 27, 2017 17:00:40 GMT
January 2017
imnotdead
Mass Effect Trilogy, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by I'm Not Dead Just Yet on Feb 22, 2017 13:32:10 GMT
Apologies if I let the "cat out of the bag." After three months of this being accessible information (with various new sites reporting on it), I assumed anybody who bothered to stay informed about MEA likely was already aware of this reality. My mistake. Spoilers don't really bother me too much, but it would have been nice to at least put a warning on the title and make it a little more vague to be honest with you. I hadn't even seen the article before.
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inherit
3657
0
2,378
Revan Reborn
Pathfinder
2,000
Feb 19, 2017 18:14:40 GMT
February 2017
revanreborn
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Pax_Augusta
Heero the pilot
Pax_Augusta01
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Post by Revan Reborn on Feb 22, 2017 13:36:03 GMT
Apologies if I let the "cat out of the bag." After three months of this being accessible information (with various new sites reporting on it), I assumed anybody who bothered to stay informed about MEA likely was already aware of this reality. My mistake. Spoilers don't really bother me too much, but it would have been nice to at least put a warning on the title and make it a little more vague to be honest with you. I hadn't even seen the article before. I've already modified the OP making it impossible to see the spoiler unless you actually decide to click on it.
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