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Post by KaiserShep on Feb 22, 2017 13:53:05 GMT
My biggest problem with ME2 was why have 12 squadmates when only 8 are needed to complete the mission with everyone surviving. I would have included mandatory deaths for the suicide mission. I would like to have ME2 squadmates on the roster in ME3, but that can't happen since all might be dead. They add Garrus and Tali to the roster. Garrus adds nothing to ME3 and Tali didn't need to be a squadmate. I guess both were on the roster because they were in ME1. With the squadmates in the Andromeda game. It would be nice to have my Ryder be the only one alive at the end of the game. At the end she/he lights up a cigar with a smile on her/his face. That won't happen unfortunately. Too bad. I'm pretty certain that at least two would get canned to make way for Liara and the VS regardless, since their exclusion from ME2's campaign was to ensure that these two survive to be followers again. But still, even mandatory deaths wouldn't have solved the main problem with the bloated cast, unless of course, those mandatory deaths were scripted and specific team members always died (we all know that Garrus and Tali would be exempt).
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Post by amleth on Feb 22, 2017 13:55:17 GMT
Probably because they don't have the ability to properly handle multiple branching story paths that account for actual character endstates.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2017 13:56:54 GMT
I already knew this from a few months ago. I didn't think this was a surprise for anyone. That article is from 2016.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 22, 2017 14:01:41 GMT
(we all know that Garrus and Tali would be exempt). I would not exempt those two. If they can be dead, I would not have them on the roster especially since Tali doesn't have to be recruited in ME2.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2017 14:07:18 GMT
With mandatory deaths, then the developer controls what sort of combinations of personalities need to go forward into the next part of their story. With ME2, because it was all optional, they had no control over that. Therefore, they just couldn't write any of those personalities into the main thrust of their story. The obvious problem with mandatory deaths is there is no player agency to prevent it from happening. Especially if these mandatory deaths happened to be squadmates, I could see an outcry from the fan base. What if it was a LI? Or would you try and relegate mandatory deaths to "expendable squadmates"? That approach just doesn't seem any better than not allowing any of the companions to die. Both approaches take away player agency. At least with everybody surviving, you know there are future stories that can be told with those characters. If all the characters who could die had the same personalities, it wouldn't be an issue; but neither would the players be happy with a story about 12 squad mates who are all essentially the same person. A plot needs strong central characters to drive it forward. Change the personalities of those characters and you have to change the whole direction the story takes. It's unreasonable to expect Bioware to do that to accommodate 12 very different personalities from ME2 integrally into the plot of ME3 when they can occur in so many different possible combinations of personalities. Bioware can't be expected to take their stories in so many different directions at once and still have the story hold together at all. A higher budget won't fix that problem.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2017 14:19:28 GMT
I guess technically they only revealed companions couldn't DIE. It may be possible for them to LEAVE the crew if you upset them enough.
No one in DA:I could DIE but they could LEAVE.
So their could still be some incentive to not fuck up or a reason to think about squadmate actions.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2017 14:23:01 GMT
I guess technically they only revealed companions couldn't DIE. It may be possible for them to LEAVE the crew if you upset them enough. No one in DA:I could DIE but they could LEAVE. Yeah no one died in DAI, except Trespasser, but that's all depending on a choice you made in the main game. I remember they said your squad will not forget if you are unpleasant with them and bring it up later, but nothing about walking out if you push them too far. It seems they fight back.
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Post by isaidlunch on Feb 22, 2017 14:28:49 GMT
Garrus and Tali were treated well, and arguably Kaidan/Ashley too. I have faith that Bioware can handle some death before the last game as long as the core cast remains the same and isn't thrown into a mid-series blender like the Suicide Mission.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2017 14:29:44 GMT
Garrus and Tali were treated well, and arguably Kaidan/Ashley too. I have faith that Bioware can handle some death before the last game as long as the core cast remains the same and isn't thrown into a mid-series blender like the Suicide Mission. Pretty much everyone in ME2 dies in ME3 anyways, so the SM ends up feeling pretty pointless.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2017 14:30:27 GMT
I guess technically they only revealed companions couldn't DIE. It may be possible for them to LEAVE the crew if you upset them enough. No one in DA:I could DIE but they could LEAVE. Yeah no one died in DAI, except Trespasser, but that's all depending the choice you made in the main game. I remember they said your squad will not forget if you are unpleasant with them and bring it up later, but nothing about walking out if you push them too far. It seems they fight back. Blackwall, Cole, Dorian, and Sera can all leave. Though for some you have to really go through some intense shit or tell them to leave. Sera and Dorian have to be told. BW and Cole will leave if you're an ass. Edit: you could also give Cassandra or Vivienne that "position" and they will never be in your party again. That's technically leaving I guess but for a good reason.
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Post by Thalandor on Feb 22, 2017 14:32:44 GMT
That's awesome news. I've hated every unavoidable party member death, or party members that quit the party in Bioware games. Yoshimo, Bastila, Ashley/Kaidan... they piss me off so much because you build a party around them, or you just like them, and then they are not available anymore. Annoying! Yeah they die for story reason, but gameplay should come first. You can build a great story without some BS death.
It was a lesser aggravation with the death of party members in ME2, or Wrex in ME1, because if you knew what you were doing you could avoid them all.
Anyways, it's a relief that in ME:A I won't have to deal with that bullshit.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2017 14:33:17 GMT
Yeah no one died in DAI, except Trespasser, but that's all depending the choice you made in the main game. I remember they said your squad will not forget if you are unpleasant with them and bring it up later, but nothing about walking out if you push them too far. It seems they fight back. Blackwall, Cole, Dorian, and Sera can all leave. Though for some you have to really go through some intense shit or tell them to leave. Sera and Dorian have to be told. BW and Cole will leave if you're an ass. Yep! My friend ladyinsanity did a playthrough where she was an ass to everyone. By the end of the game only Cass, Varrc, Viv and IB remained for the party. BW and Cole left early, she punched Dorian and Solas, told Sera to leave, Viv rearranged her furniture and she got Cass drunk. Varric even tried to put her in her place. It was pretty funny!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2017 14:39:28 GMT
Blackwall, Cole, Dorian, and Sera can all leave. Though for some you have to really go through some intense shit or tell them to leave. Sera and Dorian have to be told. BW and Cole will leave if you're an ass. Yep! My friend ladyinsanity did a playthrough where she was an ass to everyone. By the end of the game only Cass, Varrc, Viv and IB remained for the party. BW and Cole left early, she punched Dorian and Solas, told Sera to leave, Viv rearranged her furniture and she got Cass drunk. Varric even tried to put her in her place. It was pretty funny! I guess Viv or Cass also have a chance to "leave" if you give them that position.
So yeah a lot of people can leave
Also I will NEVER look up that scene of Dorian getting punched.
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Post by chococri on Feb 22, 2017 14:40:10 GMT
Blackwall, Cole, Dorian, and Sera can all leave. Though for some you have to really go through some intense shit or tell them to leave. Sera and Dorian have to be told. BW and Cole will leave if you're an ass. Yep! My friend ladyinsanity did a playthrough where she was an ass to everyone. By the end of the game only Cass, Varrc, Viv and IB remained for the party. BW and Cole left early, she punched Dorian and Solas, told Sera to leave, Viv rearranged her furniture and she got Cass drunk. Varric even tried to put her in her place. It was pretty funny! Jesus! What a wild rodeo LOL
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2017 14:43:12 GMT
Yep! My friend ladyinsanity did a playthrough where she was an ass to everyone. By the end of the game only Cass, Varrc, Viv and IB remained for the party. BW and Cole left early, she punched Dorian and Solas, told Sera to leave, Viv rearranged her furniture and she got Cass drunk. Varric even tried to put her in her place. It was pretty funny! I guess Viv or Cass also have a chance to "leave" if you give them that position.
So yeah a lot of people can leave
Also I will NEVER look up that scene of Dorian getting punched. She tried to make Leliana Divine, but ended up with Cass. I love how when Trespasser started, Dorian greeted you like an old friend. It was like that punch erased all his memories of how bad things ended up between you.
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Post by ayenari on Feb 22, 2017 14:58:44 GMT
They absolutely can. They don't need to feature the same companions or player characters in multiple games. If that is not done, having a character die no longer becomes such a huge continuity problem.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Feb 22, 2017 14:59:20 GMT
Yeah "might be dead" is not an excuse for anything, no matter what BioWare tries to tell you. Though making the entire cast of a game killable is dumb on another level entirely. On this cast, whether they live or die:
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Post by Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger on Feb 22, 2017 15:02:39 GMT
In my opinion they may eventually allow it. Through some DLC. Maybe a DLC committed to killing or adding and replacing current squadmates with new DLC companions. Probably and hope I am wrong though.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 22, 2017 15:02:41 GMT
Pretty much everyone in ME2 dies in ME3 anyways, so the SM ends up feeling pretty pointless. That depends on the playthrough. The only ones guaranteed to die is Thane and Legion. All others can live.
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Post by KaiserShep on Feb 22, 2017 15:07:02 GMT
(we all know that Garrus and Tali would be exempt). I would not exempt those two. If they can be dead, I would not have them on the roster especially since Tali doesn't have to be recruited in ME2. I mean exempt from automatic death in the suicide mission on account of being popular characters carried over from ME1. Thane, for example, would be an obvious pick for auto-death since he's doomed anyway.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2017 15:08:17 GMT
Pretty much everyone in ME2 dies in ME3 anyways, so the SM ends up feeling pretty pointless. That depends on the playthrough. The only ones guaranteed to die is Thane and Legion. All others can live. Haha true but if you don't do their loyalty missions in ME2 and they survive, they won't in ME3. That whole Miranda thing still bugs me most though. No matter how loyal she is, she keeps dying unless I shoot her sister.
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Post by vanguarddoken on Feb 22, 2017 15:16:51 GMT
The best part of this thread is:
a.) Ignoring the fact that characters who may have died in previous games retain plot significance. There's major differences in the krogan arc if Wrex is alive or dead. Tali and Legion's presence is a major factor in the geth/quarian arc. Kaidan and Ashley both have different dialogue with Shepard and with other squadmates.
b.) The premise that every past squadmate should return and play some major role in the plot.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 22, 2017 15:19:34 GMT
Haha true but if you don't do their loyalty missions in ME2 and they survive, they won't in ME3. That whole Miranda thing still bugs me most though. No matter how loyal she is, she keeps dying unless I shoot her sister. The one's that will die if not loyal in ME3 are Grunt, Miranda, Zaeed and Kasumi. The rest can survive. As I said, Legion and Thane will not. If you didn't know. If Miranda's loyalty mission has been completed, but the player loses her loyalty when choosing Jack, Miranda will still survive ME3 if all the stuff is met. With your case, it sounds like your reputation isn't high enough to get the blue/red dialogue for Shepard to use the power of the voice.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2017 15:21:33 GMT
Haha true but if you don't do their loyalty missions in ME2 and they survive, they won't in ME3. That whole Miranda thing still bugs me most though. No matter how loyal she is, she keeps dying unless I shoot her sister. The one's that will die if not loyal in ME3 are Grunt, Miranda, Zaeed and Kasumi. The rest can survive. As I said, Legion and Thane will not. If you didn't know. If Miranda's loyalty mission has been completed, but the player loses her loyalty when choosing Jack, Miranda will still survive ME3 if all the stuff is met. With your case, it sounds like your reputation isn't high enough to get the blue/red dialogue for Shepard to use the power of the voice. Actually you and I talked about this back at the other board. But no to this day, if I choose blue or red she still dies, and yep, both her and Jack were loyal. By shooting her sister in the leg, she survived. Still have no idea why. I had high Paragon and medium Renegade and the option for both everytime!
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Post by Beerfish on Feb 22, 2017 15:25:59 GMT
I think BioWare is perhaps learning that killing off companions is a bit dicey for some of the reasons already listed. Some characters really resonate with the fans more than the game makes think at the time (Tali for example). I don't have a big issue with not letting companions die, you can still add some angst and sense of loss by killing off ancillary characters if that is your thing.
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