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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2017 20:46:28 GMT
That falls in with what I said about "deliberately not using one of the two persuasion options available" When saying that, it could mean you avoid the blue or red option, which is two persuasion options, right? An interrupt is not a persuasion. I lump them in as part of the P/R dialogue system overall. My bad, I guess.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2017 20:46:49 GMT
Why, you ask? The moment any squadmate has the option to die is the moment that character is no longer integral to the plot going forward. Ah, yes. We have dismissed that claim. Don't forget her DAI ending.
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Post by derrame on Feb 22, 2017 21:26:39 GMT
it's already confiremd that squadmantes won't die
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Post by The Elder King on Feb 22, 2017 21:28:14 GMT
I never understood the Leliana issue. People seem to forget we can talk to Loghain and Zevran after merrily decapitating them in combat. As well as Howe, which speaks his last words despite his head being cut off (ironically, every time I play my canon HN Warden ). The decapitation has to be ignored because it's something happening and screwing the game already. She was left for dead, and the ashes/place/maker/whatever healed her. We can debate on this, but the decapitation doesn't make the argument any better, unless you concede DAO had plently of retcons with the decapitation of people that were alive later on.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2017 21:48:18 GMT
That's why something like ME2 should be reserved to be an ending to a series, not a middle point. It would be AMAZING if they could write in all the possible scenarios and all that shit, but it takes too much time and too many resources. It's just not reasonable to expect that. Especially not from a publisher like EA.
Mass Effect 2 is fucking amazing, but it hurts ME3. I've been saying that since it was released.
Although it is strange that no one can die in Andromeda. At least have an equivalent to Ashley and Kaiden, with a Wrex in there somewhere.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2017 21:50:47 GMT
Mordin begs to differ - one of the best characters in ME3 and yet he might not even be there... so it can be done. But if Mordin DOES die, you're left with some faceless asshole who nobody cares about. ME2 limits ME3 by having characters that can die. Or rather, by having the ENTIRE cast being expendable.
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Post by Cypher on Feb 22, 2017 21:57:11 GMT
They can afford to let them die, they just can't afford to provide the option of having 8 different people die or survive.
Having Cora die and that being it, or giving the user the ability to prevent Cora's death, and then them progressing the story of Andromeda with that death is a lot easier than choosing between the survival of 2+ people. Next time there's a squadmember death, they should treat it like Jenkins, or any number of party members from RPGs that get stabbed with 12 foot swords before sinking to the bottom of a natural pool.
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Post by Elsariel on Feb 22, 2017 22:25:27 GMT
They can afford to let them die, they just can't afford to provide the option of having 8 different people die or survive. Having Cora die and that being it, or giving the user the ability to prevent Cora's death, and then them progressing the story of Andromeda with that death is a lot easier than choosing between the survival of 2+ people. Next time there's a squadmember death, they should treat it like Jenkins, or any number of party members from RPGs that get stabbed with 12 foot swords before sinking to the bottom of a natural pool. I think, as Snow White said, character deaths (if its even necessary) should be reserved for the final installment of a series. That way, you don't have to worry about accounting for it later.
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Post by illusivecake on Feb 22, 2017 22:30:48 GMT
The reason Kaidan received such excellent treatment in ME3 was his very devoted and passionate fan base. We were constantly interacting with the devs on Twitter and had extremely active discussions on the forums that devs visited as well. Many of us were also huge Cullen fans, and look what happened with Cullen's character in DAI. Never underestimate what polite, respectful, and exceedingly devoted fans can encourage devs to do with a character! By comparison, Ashley's fans were scarcely a whisper compared to Kaidan fans roar lol. She may have had more people keep her alive, but the Kaidan crew were tireless activists. I have no doubt that Kaidan's outcome would have been very different otherwise. Garrus too. Just like Cullen he became a LI because of the fans and imo one of the best. Perhaps this is part of the devs reasoning? Let's say they do end up making a sequel to Andromeda, the best way to see which characters are adored by fans is to keep them all alive for the first game and then get feedback. Basically, throw a bunch of new characters at us and see which ones stick. It makes it that much easier to plan out character arcs in the future and that much easier to potentially break our hearts too... Cuz you know how much BW loves doing that
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2017 22:31:33 GMT
They can afford to let them die, they just can't afford to provide the option of having 8 different people die or survive. Having Cora die and that being it, or giving the user the ability to prevent Cora's death, and then them progressing the story of Andromeda with that death is a lot easier than choosing between the survival of 2+ people. Next time there's a squadmember death, they should treat it like Jenkins, or any number of party members from RPGs that get stabbed with 12 foot swords before sinking to the bottom of a natural pool. I think, as Snow White said, character deaths (if its even necessary) should be reserved for the final installment of a series. That way, you don't have to worry about accounting for it later. Well, I would say that I do think a character can die before the finale, I just don't think we need a roster of expendable characters. It becomes way too difficult to maintain the diversity of options expected from a game like this. That's why a lot of scenes involving the cast of ME2 feel shallow in ME3. Having another Virmire would be fine. Or having something like Shinjiro's death in Persona 3 would be impactful and unexpected. There are ways to do death well, and ME2 is even one of them, but the problem is that doing it the ME2 way means that the sequel will, without a doubt, suffer.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Feb 22, 2017 22:31:57 GMT
They can afford to let them die, they just can't afford to provide the option of having 8 different people die or survive. Having Cora die and that being it, or giving the user the ability to prevent Cora's death, and then them progressing the story of Andromeda with that death is a lot easier than choosing between the survival of 2+ people. Next time there's a squadmember death, they should treat it like Jenkins, or any number of party members from RPGs that get stabbed with 12 foot swords before sinking to the bottom of a natural pool. That still doesn't resolve the issue if a LI, as an example, dies. If you kill off Cora, then she will be relegated to secondary status for all future games. That is what happened with Miranda and it was absolutely disappointing. Whereas other romances, such as Liara, had the best romance scenes and the most amount of development in the relationship because she couldn't die. The issue is BioWare is inevitably going to kill off a companion someone likes or is in a relationship with, largely sidelining that character for future installments. As others have indicated in this thread, there are other ways of building suspense and drama without having death. We also know that in MEA the Tempest crew can't die either, but if other characters that aren't part of the main line of companions could die, the same impactful storytelling could still work. I don't really see any value in killing off any companion, unless BioWare just wants to reset them all and have new companions in the next game. Largely, the biggest problem with the Mass Effect trilogy is BioWare wanted to keep giving us new companions. If they had just stuck with the initial cast and slowly added over time, then the consequences in ME3 would have been very different. We'll have to see ultimately how MEA2 shapes up and is different from this game, but I will not be surprised if BioWare opts to value returning companions over having a mostly new cast of characters.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2017 22:32:20 GMT
Garrus too. Just like Cullen he became a LI because of the fans and imo one of the best. Perhaps this is part of the devs reasoning? Let's say they do end up making a sequel to Andromeda, the best way to see which characters are adored by fans is to keep them all alive for the first game and then get feedback. Basically, throw a bunch of new characters at us and see which ones stick. It makes it that much easier to plan out character arcs in the future and that much easier to potentially break our hearts too... Cuz you know how much BW loves doing that
You know I was actually thinking that too. I also feel the Kaidan/Ashley thing was a bit premature and instead have one of them die in the Suicide Mission and not be able to be saved might have been more interesting.
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Post by Cypher on Feb 22, 2017 23:08:14 GMT
They can afford to let them die, they just can't afford to provide the option of having 8 different people die or survive. Having Cora die and that being it, or giving the user the ability to prevent Cora's death, and then them progressing the story of Andromeda with that death is a lot easier than choosing between the survival of 2+ people. Next time there's a squadmember death, they should treat it like Jenkins, or any number of party members from RPGs that get stabbed with 12 foot swords before sinking to the bottom of a natural pool. That still doesn't resolve the issue if a LI, as an example, dies. If you kill off Cora, then she will be relegated to secondary status for all future games. That is what happened with Miranda and it was absolutely disappointing. Whereas other romances, such as Liara, had the best romance scenes and the most amount of development in the relationship because she couldn't die. The issue is BioWare is inevitably going to kill off a companion someone likes or is in a relationship with, largely sidelining that character for future installments. As others have indicated in this thread, there are other ways of building suspense and drama without having death. We also know that in MEA the Tempest crew can't die either, but if other characters that aren't part of the main line of companions could die, the same impactful storytelling could still work. I don't really see any value in killing off any companion, unless BioWare just wants to reset them all and have new companions in the next game. Largely, the biggest problem with the Mass Effect trilogy is BioWare wanted to keep giving us new companions. If they had just stuck with the initial cast and slowly added over time, then the consequences in ME3 would have been very different. We'll have to see ultimately how MEA2 shapes up and is different from this game, but I will not be surprised if BioWare opts to value returning companions over having a mostly new cast of characters. No, if you kill off Cora, Cora's just dead and your romance storyline ends in Ryder mourning the loss of a loved one in future games. Or at least, that's how I'd do it. Though you could do it and not make Cora have a secondary status if Cora is the only character with such a heavy variable attached to them. The issue comes into play when you have to write around the death, survival, or disappearance of multiple characters at once, so you reduce all of them in effort to save time and energy. The solution would be to write the next stories as if Cora is there and simply omit her parts out if she isn't and offload things on to Ryder. Ryder would have more lines in the process while Cora isn't diminished at all. But I'm still all for them just being dead since that was the original intent of the majority of my original post.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2017 23:09:56 GMT
I would really like a scene in a BioWare RPG where you can legitimately grieve someone who died in a previous game. I don't think that ever happens. I almost forgot Kaiden existed by ME3.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Feb 22, 2017 23:25:27 GMT
That still doesn't resolve the issue if a LI, as an example, dies. If you kill off Cora, then she will be relegated to secondary status for all future games. That is what happened with Miranda and it was absolutely disappointing. Whereas other romances, such as Liara, had the best romance scenes and the most amount of development in the relationship because she couldn't die. The issue is BioWare is inevitably going to kill off a companion someone likes or is in a relationship with, largely sidelining that character for future installments. As others have indicated in this thread, there are other ways of building suspense and drama without having death. We also know that in MEA the Tempest crew can't die either, but if other characters that aren't part of the main line of companions could die, the same impactful storytelling could still work. I don't really see any value in killing off any companion, unless BioWare just wants to reset them all and have new companions in the next game. Largely, the biggest problem with the Mass Effect trilogy is BioWare wanted to keep giving us new companions. If they had just stuck with the initial cast and slowly added over time, then the consequences in ME3 would have been very different. We'll have to see ultimately how MEA2 shapes up and is different from this game, but I will not be surprised if BioWare opts to value returning companions over having a mostly new cast of characters. No, if you kill off Cora, Cora's just dead and your romance storyline ends in Ryder mourning the loss of a loved one in future games. Or at least, that's how I'd do it. Though you could do it and not make Cora have a secondary status if Cora is the only character with such a heavy variable attached to them. The issue comes into play when you have to write around the death, survival, or disappearance of multiple characters at once, so you reduce all of them in effort to save time and energy. The solution would be to write the next stories as if Cora is there and simply omit her parts out if she isn't and offload things on to Ryder. Ryder would have more lines in the process while Cora isn't diminished at all. But I'm still all for them just being dead since that was the original intent of the majority of my original post. Then all you are achieving is punishing certain portions of the fan base by killing their LI, while others get to keep their LI for future games. The idea of tragedy and mourning can be a powerful literary tool, but it shouldn't be forced on some players and not others. It's also incredibly tricky to even make that work, as you are more likely to elicit a response of anger and outrage over the decision than genuine sadness. BioWare has proven they are capable of doing meaningful deaths, such as Mordin, Thane, and Legion. Other than those infrequent examples, I really don't feel that most characters deaths will have meaningful impact. The particular characters I listed only had more meaning because they were living in the next game (for those who saved them). As a few others have suggested, I'm not against the idea of death. However, I believe that kind of tool makes far more sense for the end of a series of games rather than the beginning or middle. It's far more compelling to build these characters and develop them through multiple games only to have that climatic and sad end in the finale. I believe many would likely find that more appealing.
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Post by Cypher on Feb 22, 2017 23:41:53 GMT
No, if you kill off Cora, Cora's just dead and your romance storyline ends in Ryder mourning the loss of a loved one in future games. Or at least, that's how I'd do it. Though you could do it and not make Cora have a secondary status if Cora is the only character with such a heavy variable attached to them. The issue comes into play when you have to write around the death, survival, or disappearance of multiple characters at once, so you reduce all of them in effort to save time and energy. The solution would be to write the next stories as if Cora is there and simply omit her parts out if she isn't and offload things on to Ryder. Ryder would have more lines in the process while Cora isn't diminished at all. But I'm still all for them just being dead since that was the original intent of the majority of my original post. Then all you are achieving is punishing certain portions of the fan base by killing their LI, while others get to keep their LI for future games. The idea of tragedy and mourning can be a powerful literary tool, but it shouldn't be forced on some players and not others. It's also incredibly tricky to even make that work, as you are more likely to elicit a response of anger and outrage over the decision than genuine sadness. BioWare has proven they are capable of doing meaningful deaths, such as Mordin, Thane, and Legion. Other than those infrequent examples, I really don't feel that most characters deaths will have meaningful impact. The particular characters I listed only had more meaning because they were living in the next game (for those who saved them). As a few others have suggested, I'm not against the idea of death. However, I believe that kind of tool makes far more sense for the end of a series of games rather than the beginning or middle. It's far more compelling to build these characters and develop them through multiple games only to have that climatic and sad end in the finale. I believe many would likely find that more appealing. Which is something I have no problem with; all relationships aren't happy endings, and if you're trying to make some masterwork to create emotional responses with characters and situations, some of those situations should have no good outcome regardless of how those situations involve you personally. It could be a good friend, a boyfriend, or a coworker; them up and dying will resonate with you regardless of how much it resonates. I'm not saying Bioware should kill Cora, I'm just using her as an example. My ultimate point is that there should be a main character that people get emotionally invested into should they choose, develop that relationship into what they want it to, and they should die.
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Post by theorigcylonhybrid on Feb 22, 2017 23:42:34 GMT
Mass Effect Andromeda 2 will be the dark one. So someone will die in that.
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Post by crom on Feb 22, 2017 23:48:59 GMT
More possibilities of death the better, it's disappointing nobody will die what a bunch of fruit cakes, takes all the suspense of the story and throws it out the window. Me2 was genius everything dependent upon you and your actions on wether who comes home from that deployment just like the real world very nice
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Post by The Elder King on Feb 22, 2017 23:54:54 GMT
More possibilities of death the better, it's disappointing nobody will die what a bunch of fruit cakes, takes all the suspense of the story and throws it out the window. Me2 was genius everything dependent upon you and your actions on wether who comes home from that deployment just like the real world very nice It's good if you have a single game. Not when you plan a sequel and you sideline squadmates in minor roles because you don't have resources to do each justice. It was quite the criticism in legacy BSN around ME3's release. I can understand why they went a different route.
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Post by crom on Feb 22, 2017 23:59:32 GMT
More possibilities of death the better, it's disappointing nobody will die what a bunch of fruit cakes, takes all the suspense of the story and throws it out the window. Me2 was genius everything dependent upon you and your actions on wether who comes home from that deployment just like the real world very nice It's good if you have a single game. Not when you plan a sequel and you sideline squadmates in minor roles because you don't have resources to do each justice. It was quite the criticism in legacy BSN around ME3's release. I can understand why they went a different route. It's exactly what gives the trilogy such a great replay value all the different possibilities. Andromeda looks like it's being very limited by not having this flexibility.
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Post by The Elder King on Feb 23, 2017 0:03:34 GMT
It's good if you have a single game. Not when you plan a sequel and you sideline squadmates in minor roles because you don't have resources to do each justice. It was quite the criticism in legacy BSN around ME3's release. I can understand why they went a different route. It's exactly what gives the trilogy such a great replay value all the different possibilities. Andromeda looks like it's being very limited by not having this flexibility. The replay value and flexibility can come from different sources, though.
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Post by crom on Feb 23, 2017 0:04:14 GMT
We shall see
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Post by Revan Reborn on Feb 23, 2017 0:12:13 GMT
Then all you are achieving is punishing certain portions of the fan base by killing their LI, while others get to keep their LI for future games. The idea of tragedy and mourning can be a powerful literary tool, but it shouldn't be forced on some players and not others. It's also incredibly tricky to even make that work, as you are more likely to elicit a response of anger and outrage over the decision than genuine sadness. BioWare has proven they are capable of doing meaningful deaths, such as Mordin, Thane, and Legion. Other than those infrequent examples, I really don't feel that most characters deaths will have meaningful impact. The particular characters I listed only had more meaning because they were living in the next game (for those who saved them). As a few others have suggested, I'm not against the idea of death. However, I believe that kind of tool makes far more sense for the end of a series of games rather than the beginning or middle. It's far more compelling to build these characters and develop them through multiple games only to have that climatic and sad end in the finale. I believe many would likely find that more appealing. Which is something I have no problem with; all relationships aren't happy endings, and if you're trying to make some masterwork to create emotional responses with characters and situations, some of those situations should have no good outcome regardless of how those situations involve you personally. It could be a good friend, a boyfriend, or a coworker; them up and dying will resonate with you regardless of how much it resonates. I'm not saying Bioware should kill Cora, I'm just using her as an example. My ultimate point is that there should be a main character that people get emotionally invested into should they choose, develop that relationship into what they want it to, and they should die. I agree with this line of reasoning... as long as it's not a companion. Especially in MEA, the only characters I would find this to be remotely appropriate for would be anyone except companions. Alec Ryder would be a worthy contender for an important death. I will only agree to companions dying if it's at the end of this series of games. That way there is more character development, these characters aren't sidelined halfway through the story, and BioWare can focus on other important elements such as the main plot and the villain. The death of a character I've known through multiple games will always be more meaningful than the death of a character I only knew for one.
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Post by Cypher on Feb 23, 2017 1:57:40 GMT
Which is something I have no problem with; all relationships aren't happy endings, and if you're trying to make some masterwork to create emotional responses with characters and situations, some of those situations should have no good outcome regardless of how those situations involve you personally. It could be a good friend, a boyfriend, or a coworker; them up and dying will resonate with you regardless of how much it resonates. I'm not saying Bioware should kill Cora, I'm just using her as an example. My ultimate point is that there should be a main character that people get emotionally invested into should they choose, develop that relationship into what they want it to, and they should die. I agree with this line of reasoning... as long as it's not a companion. Especially in MEA, the only characters I would find this to be remotely appropriate for would be anyone except companions. Alec Ryder would be a worthy contender for an important death. I will only agree to companions dying if it's at the end of this series of games. That way there is more character development, these characters aren't sidelined halfway through the story, and BioWare can focus on other important elements such as the main plot and the villain. The death of a character I've known through multiple games will always be more meaningful than the death of a character I only knew for one. And i think that if they do it, it should be a companion. Companions should be the first to go; there's less of a connection and less of a consequence for offing secondary and tertiary side characters. And kill them whenever you feel like killing them, be it 15 hours into a 70 hour epic, at the final hour of the first part, in the middle of game four of 8, or at the very end of the storyline. but I think it's silly to think that you can't write a character, give them significant and meaningful character development, and have them die in the middle of the game. Square pulled it off just fine in Final Fantasy VII.
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Revan Reborn
Pathfinder
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Feb 19, 2017 18:14:40 GMT
February 2017
revanreborn
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Pax_Augusta
Heero the pilot
Pax_Augusta01
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Post by Revan Reborn on Feb 23, 2017 2:22:16 GMT
I agree with this line of reasoning... as long as it's not a companion. Especially in MEA, the only characters I would find this to be remotely appropriate for would be anyone except companions. Alec Ryder would be a worthy contender for an important death. I will only agree to companions dying if it's at the end of this series of games. That way there is more character development, these characters aren't sidelined halfway through the story, and BioWare can focus on other important elements such as the main plot and the villain. The death of a character I've known through multiple games will always be more meaningful than the death of a character I only knew for one. And i think that if they do it, it should be a companion. Companions should be the first to go; there's less of a connection and less of a consequence for offing secondary and tertiary side characters. And kill them whenever you feel like killing them, be it 15 hours into a 70 hour epic, at the final hour of the first part, in the middle of game four of 8, or at the very end of the storyline. but I think it's silly to think that you can't write a character, give them significant and meaningful character development, and have them die in the middle of the game. Square pulled it off just fine in Final Fantasy VII. I felt Anderson was one of the best deaths in ME3, and he was nothing more than a occasional mentor for Shepard. I certainly appreciated his death far more than most of the companions or crew, such as Cortez conveniently dying (if you didn't do all of his dialogue) during the Battle of London. It depends entirely on the role that character represents and the context of the death. Killing off a companion does nothing more than limit player options in that game going forward and all future games. I don't believe I stated you could never give a character significant or meaningful development. What I did say is that a character that appears in multiple games will always have more significant and meaningful development. I wouldn't exactly call Square Enix a champion of storytelling, considering most Final Fantasy games have terrible stories.
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