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Post by spacemaninspace on Feb 23, 2017 2:40:13 GMT
I figure they revealed the news because they didn't think anyone would care, or that people would be relieved to hear it. Hopefully they are relying on other manners of creating tension in the plot because damn, that sucks....
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Post by Revan Reborn on Feb 23, 2017 2:53:50 GMT
I figure they revealed the news because they didn't think anyone would care, or that people would be relieved to hear it. Hopefully they are relying on other manners of creating tension in the plot because damn, that sucks.... I'm more inclined to believe Mac Walters let it slip more so as a way to assuage fan concerns. BioWare surely knows by now that their fan base cares about story, no matter how minor or insignificant the spoiler may be. It likely would have been better to withhold that information and let players find out on their own. But, I'm not exactly disappointed to hear about this prior to release either. As you suggested, there are "other manners" to provide tension, drama, suspense, and engagement. Rarely do the main characters ever die in Star Wars, Star Trek, or The Lord of the Rings. Yet, everybody loves those stories and they certainly have their fair share of suspenseful moments. Death should be a last option only used for the most special of occasions. It shouldn't be a tool BioWare endorses left and right in every single game for the sake of death. The impact and its value are lost as a result.
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Post by Nightlife on Feb 23, 2017 3:11:34 GMT
Probably better to have them all live, yeah. I get the problem from a writing perspective. Why write big roles for the ME2 cast if they are dead in ME3 and not everyone experiences them? Interesting problem.
I think the solution may be to have a smaller cast of characters, maybe 7 or 8, and you make choices in ME:A that either piss them off or make you like them. They show up in ME:A part 2 with a grudge against you or wanting a hug when they see you. That way, the actors can do lines for the next game for sure.
I also see the need for new characters in subsequent games - to freshen things. But, one of the big draws of ME for me, at least, is the long-time relationships I had with Garrus, Tali and Liara (for example) from game to game. For the suicide mission, my instinct is to keep everyone alive, all loyal of course, so I can run into them in ME3 and experience more of them.
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Post by Cassandra on Feb 23, 2017 3:19:36 GMT
They can if BioWare was willing to put in the necessary work to pull it off. With Mass Effect 2's cast, they weren't. Granted, some characters are inevitably going to lose focus but Garrus, Wrex, Tali, Mordin and Ashley/Kaidan could all die at some point throughout the trilogy yet remained integral at some point. BioWare simply bit off too much and panicked once they realized the overwhelming workload. Since Cerberus became a primary antagonist, it made absolutely no sense they didn't prioritized Miranda. If she dies, Jacob takes over, if both are dead, a NPC steps up much in a similar vein to how Garrus and Tali were handled. In fact, virtually nothing changes during our rescue of Victus should Garrus have died in ME2. All of his important dialogue is delivered by NPCs in a summarized version. Probably better to have them all live, yeah. I get the problem from a writing perspective. Why write big roles for the ME2 cast if they are dead in ME3 and not everyone experiences them? Interesting problem. Because it's considered good writing when done properly. Look no further than the Last of Us, which pulls off death tropes masterfully. Yes, it isn't a choice driven narrative but that only makes it more compelling. Our choices have a direct impact on characters we care about-- even to their potential demise. We needn't have a Suicide Mission equivalent every endgame. Just something to build tension. Removing those repercussions gives the impression the writers don't like us not being able to see all their work in one sitting.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Feb 23, 2017 3:46:19 GMT
They can if BioWare was willing to put in the necessary work to pull it off. With Mass Effect 2's cast, they weren't. Granted, some characters are inevitably going to lose focus but Garrus, Wrex, Tali, Mordin and Ashley/Kaidan could all die at some point throughout the trilogy yet remained integral at some point. BioWare simply bit off too much and panicked once they realized the overwhelming workload. Since Cerberus became a primary antagonist, it made absolutely no sense they didn't prioritized Miranda. If she dies, Jacob takes over, if both are dead, a NPC steps up much in a similar vein to how Garrus and Tali were handled. In fact, virtually nothing changes during our rescue of Victus should Garrus have died in ME2. All of his important dialogue is delivered by NPCs in a summarized version. Probably better to have them all live, yeah. I get the problem from a writing perspective. Why write big roles for the ME2 cast if they are dead in ME3 and not everyone experiences them? Interesting problem. Because it's considered good writing when done properly. Look no further than the Last of Us, which pulls off death tropes masterfully. Yes, it isn't a choice driven narrative but that only makes it more compelling. Our choices have a direct impact on characters we care about-- even to their potential demise. We needn't have a Suicide Mission equivalent every endgame. Just something to build tension. Removing those repercussions gives the impression the writers don't like us not being able to see all their work in one sitting. I agree. Miranda should have absolutely been integral to ME3, given that Cerberus had become the primary antagonist of the game. It simply did not make sense that she was sidelined just because of how much work it would have required and due to the fact some of the player base may have killed her off. Jacob is another perfect example I forgot to mention because if you romanced him as a FemShep he would cheat on you, regardless, with another woman! I'm not sure what BioWare was thinking when that happened. By far that was one of the biggest slaps in the face as clearly Jacob's role had become secondary, so BioWare never considered the ramifications of the decision or didn't want to invest more time to do it right.
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 23, 2017 4:51:56 GMT
Making Miranda essential to ME3 would have burned a bunch more wordcount than the existing design did. It's OK to want that, but what would you have cut to get it? It's also unclear how well the plot would have worked if she's dead.
Jacob's another matter, because setting up his new romance was costlier than not doing that.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Feb 23, 2017 5:08:49 GMT
Making Miranda essential to ME3 would have burned a bunch more wordcount than the existing design did. It's OK to want that, but what would you have cut to get it? It's also unclear how well the plot would have worked if she's dead. Jacob's another matter, because setting up his new romance was costlier than not doing that. It wouldn't be simply adding Miranda to the word count. She would have been retrofitted into the story from the beginning and filled the role various characters did along the way with regard to Cerberus. For example, we probably should have ran into Miranda on Mars rather than Liara, as just a quick example. This wouldn't necessarily cost BioWare any money, provided they pass around lines to the characters who are most appropriate for the situation. Concerning if she was dead, Liara more or less was filling that void, anyway, since she had become the Shadow Broker and was keeping tabs on everyone. Jacob's role in ME3 is just a quagmire to me. I don't understand it and it certainly wasn't cheaper either.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 23, 2017 12:26:44 GMT
The wordcount wouldn't be too much of a problem.
Remove some unwanted dialogue and scenes from other characters. After talking to holo-Hackett, just have the scene go to a fade-to-black instead of the scene between t'soni and Shepard that amounted to nothing. Remove the dialogue and scenes from t'soni after the first 2 dreams since they amounted to nothing. After the first dream to tells Shepard something that Shepard and the player already knew. The second dream t'soni wasn't needed. Why couldn't she use the intercom to tell Shepard the councilor wanted to talk instead of wasting time going up to the cabin.
Remove one of the scenes Vega has on the Citadel. Maybe the first one right after talking with Udina when the turian councilor gives Shepard access to spectre resources.
Or better yet, have Garrus not be a squadmate. He added nothing to ME3.
There you go. Miranda has enough to be a squadmate without worrying about the wordcount.
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Post by corpusdei on Feb 23, 2017 12:55:05 GMT
Mordin begs to differ - one of the best characters in ME3 and yet he might not even be there... so it can be done. But if Mordin DOES die, you're left with some faceless asshole who nobody cares about. ME2 limits ME3 by having characters that can die. Or rather, by having the ENTIRE cast being expendable. The 2nd image there is Padok Wiks, a.k.a not-Mordin ... I actually quite liked him the one play-through I had where I accidentally got Mordin killed in the Suicide Mission in ME2. > Or rather, by having the ENTIRE cast being expendable.
Which I pretty much what I said in a follow-up post - and that's basically a matter of resources as you need to develop 2 characters for every 1 that could be killed (the original character and their stand-in). I have no real problems with major and minor companion characters - the major ones having better realised stand-ins if they get killed (though maybe not as well realised as the originals) and the minor ones basically being side-lined if they live. e.g. Ash/Kaiden or Wrex in ME2 or Jacob/Miranda in ME3 - they all pretty much fall into the category of minor companions (despite the fact that they play large roles in their particular instalments) - if they survive they're basically sidelined in the sequel. I'm OK with that. However, I wouldn't say that Liara, being the only immortal from the ME2 suicide mission, is better realised in ME3 than Grunt, Mordin, Tali or Legion - despite the fact that they can all die. Better than Padok Wiks maybe.
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Post by Nashimura on Feb 23, 2017 13:08:32 GMT
***WARNING: This spoiler contains information with regard to the fate of companions in MEA.***Why, you ask? The moment any squadmate has the option to die is the moment that character is no longer integral to the plot going forward. Lets take every single companion of ME2 as a perfect example. If you chose, you could let the entire squad of the Normandy die. This required quite a bit of effort, from not doing loyalty missions, not upgrading the Normandy, and making sure to pair squadmates on the worst jobs that would get them killed during the Suicide Mission. Now, at first glance, you might think this level of player agency and choice is great. However, from a storytelling standpoint, it's actually incredibly terrible. Here's why: Every single squadmate in ME2 largely became irrelevant to the plot in ME3. Miranda, as my personal LI, was relegated to a largely minor role with barely any dialogue and screen time. Because BioWare made all of these squadmates optional, it did not make sense to invest money in characters who might be dead for 50% of the player base. We can also use Ashley as an example. Due to her being a potential casualty in ME1, if you agree to bring her aboard the Normandy in ME3, her amount of dialogue and interaction immediately ends (largely becoming one-liners and drunken stupors). It's really only during the first half of the game that Ash gets any kind of quality character development. But, it's clear that her potential death made her less of a priority than someone like Liara, who couldn't die. This is why Liara had the most character development and even the best romance scenes! Sure, it's interesting and can provide new dynamics as well as moral dilemmas if a companion has to die. Unfortunately, the level of worth to that companion immediately dissipates as BioWare cannot write a character into the main plot who could potentially be dead. Thus, any potentially dead companion is creatively dead from a storytelling standpoint and no longer can really offer anything to the experience. There's obviously no risk if none of our companions can die, but at least our favorite companion doesn't disappear into obscurity as a result! You're right... actually came in here to argue, thought you were going another way and i was ready to give you all the examples of them being happy to kill off characters. But yeah, since Bioware seem less and less willing to write content nobody will ever see, this is for the best, the way they straight up cut Ashley and Kaiden out of ME 3 for the majority of the game was very telling also, it was so obvious why they had that in the game :/ Feel like they will do the same with the other Ryder twin, they will either be captured, left in stasis, die... only to come back right at the end (unless, you know... the 3rd option) I get why they do it, costs of voice acting, cutscenes are much higher than when they were the talking heads of past games, don't like it... rather they cut down on being flashy and give us more options, but i also know a lot of people like great cutscenes, animation, voiced protag... i do to, just wish it wasn't either one or the other, if only they had polish money eh?
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Feb 23, 2017 13:49:54 GMT
I never felt Kaidan was cut out though. Then again I brought him everywhere.
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Post by KaiserShep on Feb 23, 2017 13:55:50 GMT
The wordcount wouldn't be too much of a problem. Remove some unwanted dialogue and scenes from other characters. After talking to holo-Hackett, just have the scene go to a fade-to-black instead of the scene between t'soni and Shepard that amounted to nothing. Remove the dialogue and scenes from t'soni after the first 2 dreams since they amounted to nothing. After the first dream to tells Shepard something that Shepard and the player already knew. The second dream t'soni wasn't needed. Why couldn't she use the intercom to tell Shepard the councilor wanted to talk instead of wasting time going up to the cabin. Remove one of the scenes Vega has on the Citadel. Maybe the first one right after talking with Udina when the turian councilor gives Shepard access to spectre resources. Or better yet, have Garrus not be a squadmate. He added nothing to ME3. There you go. Miranda has enough to be a squadmate without worrying about the wordcount. This pretty much establishes the point alan is making. From my perspective, more is lost than gained in this scenario and the game is now worse as a result. So no matter how this is sliced, the wordcount is still a problem because others have to have content sacrificed.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 23, 2017 14:09:51 GMT
This pretty much establishes the point alan is making. From my perspective, more is lost than gained in this scenario and the game is now worse as a result. So no matter how this is sliced, the wordcount is still a problem because others have to have content sacrificed. Why? Those 3 scenes involving Liara adding nothing Look at after the first dream. She tells Shepard the councilor won't give any help until the primarch is rescued. Shepard and the player already knew that. So what was the reason having her there? Was she there to try out as an NFL referee for instant replay? The second dream. Was it necessary to go up to the cabin to tell Shepard the councilor wanted to talk? No. Was that hard to use the intercom? For her it was. What answer would she give if my Shepard were to ask if it was faster to come up to the cabin to tell her/him that instead of using the intercom? I'm sure Liara would suffer from cat-got-your-tongue syndrome. Or better yet. Why not have edi or Traynor tell Shepard over the intercom With James. Was that scene necessary? With Garrus, he adds nothing at all. Take him out of the game nothing has changed. Jacob adds more to the game. Conrad adds more to the game. Sure they add in the form of assets, but they add something. The other thing is on Menae he says if Victus leaves they might lose the moon. So he decides it would be better to leave as well instead of staying back to help his fellow turians. He was made an advisor. What good is being an advisor if you're not there to advise?
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Post by KaiserShep on Feb 23, 2017 14:55:47 GMT
To you they add nothing. This isn't a matter of fact. But again, this gets away from the point. It doesn't matter if you like or dislike the characters that get downsized; something has to be removed as a tradeoff. It just so happens that you don't like the characters that are reduced, so of course it's acceptable, just like how I'd eliminate Samara and Thane to get more elsewhere.
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Post by empirex on Feb 23, 2017 15:18:45 GMT
Pity they go and tell us this in the previews.
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 23, 2017 15:42:28 GMT
It wouldn't be simply adding Miranda to the word count. She would have been retrofitted into the story from the beginning and filled the role various characters did along the way with regard to Cerberus. For example, we probably should have ran into Miranda on Mars rather than Liara, as just a quick example. This wouldn't necessarily cost BioWare any money, provided they pass around lines to the characters who are most appropriate for the situation. Concerning if she was dead, Liara more or less was filling that void, anyway, since she had become the Shadow Broker and was keeping tabs on everyone. You're still adding a bunch of lines. Someone has to take over on Mars when Miranda's dead, for instance, and this would be true at any other point where you'd make Miranda important. Can't come up with a real analysis without a more detailed proposal, of course, so I'm not arguing that the proposal would have been unworkable, necessarily. But it's easy to see why Bio didn't go this route.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 23, 2017 15:45:29 GMT
just like how I'd eliminate Samara and Thane to get more elsewhere. I wouldn't have a problem with that.
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 23, 2017 15:56:35 GMT
Looks to me like the mikefest's argument is pretty much independent of Revan Reborn's proposal. Even if you agree that those uses of wordcount are bad, it doesn't necessarily follow that the freed wordcount should go to giving Miranda more lines.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 23, 2017 16:12:20 GMT
So don't give them to Miranda. Give them to Harbinger. I know my Shepard would like hearing him talk smack throughout ME3 like in ME2
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Post by KaiserShep on Feb 23, 2017 16:17:24 GMT
It wouldn't be simply adding Miranda to the word count. She would have been retrofitted into the story from the beginning and filled the role various characters did along the way with regard to Cerberus. For example, we probably should have ran into Miranda on Mars rather than Liara, as just a quick example. This wouldn't necessarily cost BioWare any money, provided they pass around lines to the characters who are most appropriate for the situation. Concerning if she was dead, Liara more or less was filling that void, anyway, since she had become the Shadow Broker and was keeping tabs on everyone. You're still adding a bunch of lines. Someone has to take over on Mars when Miranda's dead, for instance, and this would be true at any other point where you'd make Miranda important. Can't come up with a real analysis without a more detailed proposal, of course, so I'm not arguing that the proposal would have been unworkable, necessarily. But it's easy to see why Bio didn't go this route. The obvious alternative, to me, is to simply armor Miranda with plot. Basically she'd only die if Shepard dies, in which case it wouldn't matter anymore.
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Post by Nashimura on Feb 23, 2017 16:20:56 GMT
I never felt Kaidan was cut out though. Then again I brought him everywhere. You couldn't have... he (and Ash) is literally cut out of the game from the end of mars up to when Cerberus try and take over the citadel. So, Palaven, all of the mission associated with the krogan genophage and all of the side quests (many featuring ex companions) that are suddenly cut off after the Cerberus attack. That's a really big stretch of the game, id say about a third.
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 23, 2017 16:34:34 GMT
So don't give them to Miranda. Give them to Harbinger. I know my Shepard would like hearing him talk smack throughout ME3 like in ME2 Are we still doing the"Not sure if serious" Joker meme, or is that played?
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Post by alanc9 on Feb 23, 2017 16:37:32 GMT
Workable. Wing Commander 3 did that. All you'd need to do is restructure the SM a bit. Miranda's already armored there a little.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 23, 2017 16:37:38 GMT
Is there a problem?
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Feb 23, 2017 16:42:52 GMT
I never felt Kaidan was cut out though. Then again I brought him everywhere. You couldn't have... he (and Ash) is literally cut out of the game from the end of mars up to when Cerberus try and take over the citadel. So, Palaven, all of the mission associated with the krogan genophage and all of the side quests (many featuring ex companions) that are suddenly cut off after the Cerberus attack. That's a really big stretch of the game, id say about a third. Oh. That's a story-driven reason though.
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