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Post by corpusdei on Feb 23, 2017 17:03:18 GMT
You're still adding a bunch of lines. Someone has to take over on Mars when Miranda's dead, for instance, and this would be true at any other point where you'd make Miranda important. Can't come up with a real analysis without a more detailed proposal, of course, so I'm not arguing that the proposal would have been unworkable, necessarily. But it's easy to see why Bio didn't go this route. The obvious alternative, to me, is to simply armor Miranda with plot. Basically she'd only die if Shepard dies, in which case it wouldn't matter anymore. I'd set Deadpool on her...
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Post by Nashimura on Feb 23, 2017 17:20:32 GMT
You couldn't have... he (and Ash) is literally cut out of the game from the end of mars up to when Cerberus try and take over the citadel. So, Palaven, all of the mission associated with the krogan genophage and all of the side quests (many featuring ex companions) that are suddenly cut off after the Cerberus attack. That's a really big stretch of the game, id say about a third. Oh. That's a story-driven reason though. Did cutting them out come from a story reason? Or did they create the story reason because hey needed to cut them out? Id say the former, because not 'that' much was made of it, compared to how much attention that kid dying the story gave, Kaiden/Ashley are just given an optional conversion as they are laying there, then another optional conversation when they have awoken. Obviously i can't say for sure, my gut says they made the decision cut it for cost and made it story relevant after... but i am a cynical bastard.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Feb 23, 2017 17:40:04 GMT
Oh. That's a story-driven reason though. Did cutting them out come from a story reason? Or did they create the story reason because hey needed to cut them out? Id say the former, because not 'that' much was made of it, compared to how much attention that kid dying the story gave, Kaiden/Ashley are just given an optional conversion as they are laying there, then another optional conversation when they have awoken. Obviously i can't say for sure, my gut says they made the decision cut it for cost and made it story relevant after... but i am a cynical bastard. Well we don't have enough information to discern the intentions of the developers so conjecture on that front is not going to go anywhere. The optional content you're talking about actually has tangible story effects. You cannot for one continue/begin a romance with them if you didn't visit them in the hospital.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Feb 23, 2017 20:58:56 GMT
The only point I was really making is Miranda (and to a lesser extent James), given her connections to Cerberus, should have had a large role in the game. Whether that means removing one of the new companions (EDI or James Vega) or removing one of the longstanding companions (Garrus or Tali), Miranda's inclusion simply would have made more sense given the plot than those others.
Instead, BioWare wanted to play favorites by bringing back popular ME1 companions, keeping Garrus and Tali for a third time, and then throw in some new blood. It just would have led to a more compelling and believable story had BioWare used the characters most pertinent to the plot. Garrus and Tali, in particular, could have easily been sidelined as their relevance was largely tied to their respective subplots on their homeworlds and not the main story. At least a legitimate argument could be made for keeping Liara around since she had become the Shadow Broker.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2017 21:07:58 GMT
The only point I was really making is Miranda (and to a lesser extent James), given her connections to Cerberus, should have had a large role in the game. Whether that means removing one of the new companions (EDI or James Vega) or removing one of the longstanding companions (Garrus or Tali), Miranda's inclusion simply would have made more sense given the plot than those others. Instead, BioWare wanted to play favorites by bringing back popular ME1 companions, keeping Garrus and Tali for a third time, and then throw in some new blood. It just would have led to a more compelling and believable story had BioWare used the characters most pertinent to the plot. Garrus and Tali, in particular, could have easily been sidelined as their relevance was largely tied to their respective subplots on their homeworlds and not the main story. At least a legitimate argument could be made for keeping Liara around since she had become the Shadow Broker. Problem with sidelining Garrus and Tali is they would get the Jacob Taylor treatment, and the backlash would be just as bad. It's the equivalent of telling their respective fanbases, "You love these characters? Too bad, you shouldn't have wasted your time getting attached to them." If anything, EDI had no purpose as a squadmate.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Feb 23, 2017 21:14:03 GMT
The only point I was really making is Miranda (and to a lesser extent James), given her connections to Cerberus, should have had a large role in the game. Whether that means removing one of the new companions (EDI or James Vega) or removing one of the longstanding companions (Garrus or Tali), Miranda's inclusion simply would have made more sense given the plot than those others. Instead, BioWare wanted to play favorites by bringing back popular ME1 companions, keeping Garrus and Tali for a third time, and then throw in some new blood. It just would have led to a more compelling and believable story had BioWare used the characters most pertinent to the plot. Garrus and Tali, in particular, could have easily been sidelined as their relevance was largely tied to their respective subplots on their homeworlds and not the main story. At least a legitimate argument could be made for keeping Liara around since she had become the Shadow Broker. Problem with sidelining Garrus and Tali is they would get the Jacob Taylor treatment, and the backlash would be just as bad. It's the equivalent of telling their respective fanbases, "You love these characters? Too bad, you shouldn't have wasted your time getting attached to them." If anything, EDI had no purpose as a squadmate. I understand the Garrus fans and Tali fans would be upset. My point is that, in the larger scheme of things, neither one of them was actually necessary as a squadmate given they weren't particularly relevant to the overall plot of the game. I certainly agree that EDI becoming a squadmate was entirely unnecessary. James Vega, in my opinion, didn't offer much either other than some more insight into the N7 Program. None of these companions were really necessary, but clearly BioWare was picking favorites based on fan feedback. I just think the game would have been better had the choice of squadmates been more appropriate, as Miranda and James would have made more sense than any of those. Of course, this goes back to the issue of them being sidelined because they were optional characters. Garrus and Tali weren't treated the same way due to having diehard fan bases that had been growing since ME1. It never made any sense to me that those two were featured as squadmates in three games.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2017 21:27:30 GMT
It's a false equivalence, since ME:A is not a part of a trilogy. ME:A (presumably) will be a self-contained story so there will be no potential character degradation because of the character being "optional" in subsequent games. If ME:A is a standalone game and we'll only be spending one game in Ryder's boots, I agree with this this. Character deaths are only a potential issue in a multi-game series where the writers need to worry about characters having branching paths that may need to be imported. It certainly doesn't result in character degradation if the companion character's potential death occurs in a game that features their final appearance, either way. If anything the series could use more Virmire moments, not less. Virmire was one of the few moments in the series where Mass Effect actually lived up to it's marketing slogan. "Many choices lie ahead, none of them easy."
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2017 21:37:19 GMT
Problem with sidelining Garrus and Tali is they would get the Jacob Taylor treatment, and the backlash would be just as bad. It's the equivalent of telling their respective fanbases, "You love these characters? Too bad, you shouldn't have wasted your time getting attached to them." If anything, EDI had no purpose as a squadmate. I understand the Garrus fans and Tali fans would be upset. My point is that, in the larger scheme of things, neither one of them was actually necessary as a squadmate given they weren't particularly relevant to the overall plot of the game. I certainly agree that EDI becoming a squadmate was entirely unnecessary. James Vega, in my opinion, didn't offer much either other than some more insight into the N7 Program. None of these companions were really necessary, but clearly BioWare was picking favorites based on fan feedback. I just think the game would have been better had the choice of squadmates been more appropriate, as Miranda and James would have made more sense than any of those. Of course, this goes back to the issue of them being sidelined because they were optional characters. Garrus and Tali weren't treated the same way due to having diehard fan bases that had been growing since ME1. It never made any sense to me that those two were featured as squadmates in three games. The bare minimum I wanted as trilogy characters were Garrus, Liara and Virmire Survivor. I doubt I would have invested much into ME2 if Garrus was sidelined after going through the trouble of mentoring him in ME1. Wrex being sidelined in ME2 and ME3, I actually understood the direction and was in support of that. If anything, I honestly felt Tali's story should have been over and done with in ME1 with the whole Pilgrimage thing, but who am I to judge?
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Post by Revan Reborn on Feb 23, 2017 21:58:27 GMT
It's a false equivalence, since ME:A is not a part of a trilogy. ME:A (presumably) will be a self-contained story so there will be no potential character degradation because of the character being "optional" in subsequent games. If ME:A is a standalone game and we'll only be spending one game in Ryder's boots, I agree with this this. Character deaths are only a potential issue in a multi-game series where the writers need to worry about characters having branching paths that may need to be imported. It certainly doesn't result in character degradation if the companion character's potential death occurs in a game that features their final appearance, either way. If anything the series could use more Virmire moments, not less. Virmire was one of the few moments in the series where Mass Effect actually lived up to it's marketing slogan. "Many choices lie ahead, none of them easy." I'm not sure many would argue the Virmire decision was "difficult." For me, it was rather simple. Ash was the LI so Kaiden had to go. Not to mention, Kaiden wasn't a particularly interesting character, in my eyes, in ME1. I always found him to be rather forgettable. Now had the Virmire decision come down to either Garrus or Tali dying, then I'd be more willing to agree it was a tough choice to make. I'd probably sacrifice Tali, personally. I understand the Garrus fans and Tali fans would be upset. My point is that, in the larger scheme of things, neither one of them was actually necessary as a squadmate given they weren't particularly relevant to the overall plot of the game. I certainly agree that EDI becoming a squadmate was entirely unnecessary. James Vega, in my opinion, didn't offer much either other than some more insight into the N7 Program. None of these companions were really necessary, but clearly BioWare was picking favorites based on fan feedback. I just think the game would have been better had the choice of squadmates been more appropriate, as Miranda and James would have made more sense than any of those. Of course, this goes back to the issue of them being sidelined because they were optional characters. Garrus and Tali weren't treated the same way due to having diehard fan bases that had been growing since ME1. It never made any sense to me that those two were featured as squadmates in three games. The bare minimum I wanted as trilogy characters were Garrus, Liara and Virmire Survivor. I doubt I would have invested much into ME2 if Garrus was sidelined after going through the trouble of mentoring him in ME1. Wrex being sidelined in ME2 and ME3, I actually understood the direction and was in support of that. If anything, I honestly felt Tali's story should have been over and done with in ME1 with the whole Pilgrimage thing, but who am I to judge? I thought Garrus' character made sense and had worth in ME2 because BioWare incorporated the Archangel story. It fit with Garrus' character well and really took him to new heights that I felt he never had in ME1. I don't think he was all that necessary in ME3, however. Sure, the bottle shooting scene was great. I just would have preferred characters more immediate to the plot. Wrex being sidelined made sense and I agree with that chioce. I agree that Tali's continuing presence felt forced and didn't make a whole lot of sense. All I can hope for is that BioWare does a better job in the future and considers bringing back relevant companions rather than just focusing on the fan favorites. That's certainly a factor, but I don't believe that fan favorites should come in to the detriment of the story.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2017 22:11:55 GMT
If ME:A is a standalone game and we'll only be spending one game in Ryder's boots, I agree with this this. Character deaths are only a potential issue in a multi-game series where the writers need to worry about characters having branching paths that may need to be imported. It certainly doesn't result in character degradation if the companion character's potential death occurs in a game that features their final appearance, either way. If anything the series could use more Virmire moments, not less. Virmire was one of the few moments in the series where Mass Effect actually lived up to it's marketing slogan. "Many choices lie ahead, none of them easy." I'm not sure many would argue the Virmire decision was "difficult." For me, it was rather simple. Ash was the LI so Kaiden had to go. Not to mention, Kaiden wasn't a particularly interesting character, in my eyes, in ME1. I always found him to be rather forgettable. Now had the Virmire decision come down to either Garrus or Tali dying, then I'd be more willing to agree it was a tough choice to make. I'd probably sacrifice Tali, personally. I've been around long enough on Bioware forums to know there are a lot of people who thought Virmire was one of the series' highpoints. Obviously not everyone is in agreement. Character deaths also aren't going to impact all players the same way. No matter the character, there are always going to be some fans who dislike them or are indifferent towards them and don't care that they may die. That doesn't mean their death scenes aren't emotionally impactful to many others, or that squadmate deaths shouldn't have been in the game. The Virmire decision was difficult in the sense that there was no win outcome that didn't have consequences, regardless of how the player may feel about Ashley or Kaidan. Either way you had to a sacrifice a member of your team to stop Saren's genophage cure. Compare that to the Suicide Mission, which gave players an option to get everyone out unscathed, or ME3 where potentially none of your teammates die despite being in the midst of a galactic war that claimed the lives of billions.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Feb 23, 2017 22:21:00 GMT
I'm not sure many would argue the Virmire decision was "difficult." For me, it was rather simple. Ash was the LI so Kaiden had to go. Not to mention, Kaiden wasn't a particularly interesting character, in my eyes, in ME1. I always found him to be rather forgettable. Now had the Virmire decision come down to either Garrus or Tali dying, then I'd be more willing to agree it was a tough choice to make. I'd probably sacrifice Tali, personally. I've been around long enough on Bioware forums to know there are a lot of people who thought Virmire was one of the series' highpoints. Obviously not everyone is in agreement. Character deaths also aren't going to impact all players the same way. No matter the character, there are always going to be some fans who dislike them or are indifferent towards them and don't care that they may die. That doesn't mean their death scenes aren't emotionally impactful to many others, or that squadmate deaths shouldn't have been in the game. The Virmire decision was difficult in the sense that there was no win outcome that didn't have consequences, regardless of how the player may feel about Ashley or Kaidan. Either way you had to a sacrifice a member of your team to stop Saren's genophage cure. Compare that to the Suicide Mission, which gave players an option to get everyone out unscathed, or ME3 where potentially none of your teammates die despite being in the midst of a galactic war that claimed the lives of billions. Don't get me wrong. I love moral dilemmas. I love choices that make me think and something must be sacrificed. I just didn't find Virmire to be one of those choices, personally. The fact that people also saved Ash overwhelmingly over Kaiden would imply it wasn't a difficult choice for many others either. But who knows? I'd like to see moral dilemmas, but not necessarily like Virmire. Moral dilemmas are incredibly hard to pull off and it's likely part of the reason BioWare has done so few of them. Not to mention, the luster and appeal of moral dilemmas would be lessened if they were to become a normal occurrence in every BioWare game.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 23, 2017 22:21:40 GMT
Problem with sidelining Garrus and Tali is they would get the Jacob Taylor treatment, and the backlash would be just as bad. It's the equivalent of telling their respective fanbases, "You love these characters? Too bad, you shouldn't have wasted your time getting attached to them." If anything, EDI had no purpose as a squadmate. I don't see a problem with that. Garrus could have Victus Jr's role. Or since he's an advisor, have him at the Primarch's side and after the genophage is dealt with, he leaves. He shows up at the fob in London with the primarch. Tali didn't need to be a squadmate. She can do the same as what Xen did on the dreadnought and what Raan did on Rannoch if Tali isn't recruited or dead in ME2. She can show up at the fob in London I agree about the edibot. It was better off as a hologram.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 23, 2017 22:26:13 GMT
If anything the series could use more Virmire moments, not less. Virmire was one of the few moments in the series where Mass Effect actually lived up to it's marketing slogan. "Many choices lie ahead, none of them easy." If all squadmates are recruited before Virmire, why can't Shepard send the others to get the other squadmate?
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Post by Revan Reborn on Feb 23, 2017 23:17:58 GMT
If anything the series could use more Virmire moments, not less. Virmire was one of the few moments in the series where Mass Effect actually lived up to it's marketing slogan. "Many choices lie ahead, none of them easy." If all squadmates are recruited before Virmire, why can't Shepard send the others to get the other squadmate? I never felt the Virmire dilemma made a lot of sense. It was impossible to save your other squadmate? Really? BioWare could have done a better job than what we received. It felt far too forced.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Feb 23, 2017 23:41:56 GMT
Everyone being killable in ME2 and that actually being used in the continuation is one of the best things that ever happened to the franchise, despite how awfully they implemented it in ME3 at times.
BioWare should afford to make them die or some of them. They just don't seem to dare make risks since ME3. (I'm looking at you too DA:I)
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2017 23:44:58 GMT
Problem with sidelining Garrus and Tali is they would get the Jacob Taylor treatment, and the backlash would be just as bad. It's the equivalent of telling their respective fanbases, "You love these characters? Too bad, you shouldn't have wasted your time getting attached to them." If anything, EDI had no purpose as a squadmate. I don't see a problem with that. Garrus could have Victus Jr's role. Or since he's an advisor, have him at the Primarch's side and after the genophage is dealt with, he leaves. He shows up at the fob in London with the primarch. Tali didn't need to be a squadmate. She can do the same as what Xen did on the dreadnought and what Raan did on Rannoch if Tali isn't recruited or dead in ME2. She can show up at the fob in London I agree about the edibot. It was better off as a hologram. Problem with those two ideas are Garrus would have gotten the same treatment as Thane if given the Victus Jr. angle, or Jacob treatment if relegated to the sidelines. No one would have been happy.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 24, 2017 0:28:52 GMT
Problem with those two ideas are Garrus would have gotten the same treatment as Thane if given the Victus Jr. angle, or Jacob treatment if relegated to the sidelines. No one would have been happy. If Garrus was put at Primarch Victus side, Garrus would be on the ship and able to talk with Shepard. And being at the fob, he would have a goodbye instead of a holobye. That's no where near Jacob treatment.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Feb 24, 2017 0:41:40 GMT
Everyone being killable in ME2 and that actually being used in the continuation is one of the best things that ever happened to the franchise, despite how awfully they implemented it in ME3 at times. BioWare should afford to make them die or some of them. They just don't seem to dare make risks since ME3. (I'm looking at you too DA:I) While I agree the idea of the player agency in ME2 was wonderful, it was a terrible mess for a sequel storytelling-wise. Especially when the sequel had less than two years to be made, BioWare created way too many alternative paths and as a result caved on most of the ME2 companions. For the sake of consistency and not ruining half the cast of characters, it's just better to wait and kill your entire squad at the end of a series rather than the beginning or middle. It's one thing for a companion or two to die. It's something entirely different when they can all die.
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Post by olimae on Feb 24, 2017 1:53:12 GMT
I second that. They should have waited till ME3 to kill of the major characters. On my first ME2 playthrough, Garrus and Tali died. I continued on to ME3 without them and Garrus was actually my LI. On top of that, Mordin and Thane was killed and it made me so upset that I couldn't continue to finish it. I had to replay ME2 and with Garrus and Tali back in ME3 to find it more enjoyable. The game shouldn't be made to let players restart if they feel completely unsatisfied with the outcome although there is replay value.
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Post by sgtreed24 on Feb 24, 2017 3:12:38 GMT
I don't care if it sucks from a storytelling perspective... that's their job and they should find a way to make it work.
The suicide mission is one of THE MOST enjoyable parts of any game that I've ever played because of the ability to have the mission seem like it had consequences.
No one being able to die just ruins the immersion and turns the story into the hunky-dory, everything is roses and works out at the end type story and that's just boring. Oh and everyone gets a bunny or something.
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Post by KaiserShep on Feb 24, 2017 5:51:37 GMT
Problem with those two ideas are Garrus would have gotten the same treatment as Thane if given the Victus Jr. angle, or Jacob treatment if relegated to the sidelines. No one would have been happy. If Garrus was put at Primarch Victus side, Garrus would be on the ship and able to talk with Shepard. And being at the fob, he would have a goodbye instead of a holobye. That's no where near Jacob treatment. So basically Garrus would only be on the Normandy until the end of the Genophage story, and he will never be heard from again until Priority: Earth. There's no way that this is better.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Feb 24, 2017 7:38:53 GMT
I don't care if it sucks from a storytelling perspective... that's their job and they should find a way to make it work. The suicide mission is one of THE MOST enjoyable parts of any game that I've ever played because of the ability to have the mission seem like it had consequences. No one being able to die just ruins the immersion and turns the story into the hunky-dory, everything is roses and works out at the end type story and that's just boring. Oh and everyone gets a bunny or something. If BioWare actually did make it work in such a way that didn't sideline all of the ME2 characters because they could potentially be dead, I'd be right there with you. Unfortunately, BioWare has limited time, limited resources, and a limited budget. They can't account for every possible scenario and build 12+ different games in the process. It's just not realistic, which is why it's probably just better to avoid it entirely for the integrity of the story. Leave squadmate deaths for the end of the series, not the beginning or middle. It leads to too many Schrodinger's Cat paradoxes. If Garrus was put at Primarch Victus side, Garrus would be on the ship and able to talk with Shepard. And being at the fob, he would have a goodbye instead of a holobye. That's no where near Jacob treatment. So basically Garrus would only be on the Normandy until the end of the Genophage story, and he will never be heard from again until Priority: Earth. There's no way that this is better. It's not better if Garrus is your LI. Of course, that's how a lot of the companions were treated that were sidelined. In my personal opinion, the squadmates who should have been on the Normandy in ME3 should have been the ones who were most relevant to the story. That means Garrus, Tali, EDI, and James would have to go as none of them are really integral to the main plot. There is at least a legitimate argument for Liara given she is now the Shadow Broker. It also made since for the Virmire Survivor to be there considering the Normandy had been impounded indefinitely by the Alliance to serve a new function. Other than that Jacob and especially Miranda should have returned just because of the Cerberus connection.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 24, 2017 12:05:15 GMT
So basically Garrus would only be on the Normandy until the end of the Genophage story, and he will never be heard from again until Priority: Earth. There's no way that this is better. But its ok for Zaeed, Samara, Miranda, Grunt, Jacob, Jack, Kasumi, Thane, Legion to get what they have? At least Garrus is on the Normandy where he can talk with Shepard and have a goodbye instead of a holobye in London. That's better than what the rest of the ME2 squadmates got
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midnightwolf
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
Origin: BlackSassyWolf
XBL Gamertag: BlackSassyWolf
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midnightwolf
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
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Post by midnightwolf on Feb 24, 2017 12:07:31 GMT
Liara may be TSB, but she doesn't serve any purpose on the Normandy and really isn't relevent at all, since she does nothing in that role. That Drone of her's is more useful than she is.
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Revan Reborn
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Pax_Augusta
Heero the pilot
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Post by Revan Reborn on Feb 24, 2017 12:09:59 GMT
Liara may be TSB, but she doesn't serve any purpose on the Normandy and really isn't relevent at all, since she does nothing in that role. That Drone of her's is more useful than she is. That may be true, but she certainly is more relevant to the story than EDI, James, Garrus, and Tali. That's not to say I think Liara should have been one of the squadmates. I would have preferred Miranda and Jacob return due to their roles and familiarity with Cerberus. Instead, BioWare went with fan favorites over relevance to the story.
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