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Post by frosted on Jul 17, 2017 14:01:26 GMT
I'm excited about the new doctor and I'm looking forward to her adventures.
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Post by Sifr on Jul 17, 2017 14:22:31 GMT
I never actually watched Doctor Who, so I can't really comment on whether changing the Doctor from male to female makes sense for the series or not. The timing is certainly suspicious. I mean, now we are at the stage where it seems like just about every hero / movie / show gets retconned into a "representation" role. Certainly not something that will convince me to give the show a try when I never did before. The idea that Time Lords (the Doctor's species) can change gender during a regeneration has been a fan theory since the classic run of the series. It only was finally confirmed in the modern series in "The Doctor's Wife" from S6 when the Doctor mentions a friend called the Corsair; "See that snake; the mark of the Corsair. Fantastic bloke! He had that snake as a tattoo in every regeneration, didn't feel like himself unless he had a tattoo. Or herself, a couple of times... she was a bad girl."
The Master had been traditionally depicted as a man from her introduction back in 1973, but would later show back up in S8 in a female incarnation. A lot of fans were initially divided about this as well, but seem to have been largely won over by Michelle Gomez's portrayal and her chemistry with Capaldi. After all, being a woman this time around didn't prevent her from being just as insane, calculating and dangerous as before. We also saw another Time Lord changing sex and race in "Hell Bent" from Series 9, where the character of the General went from being a white man to a black woman. The General even casually reveals her previous incarnation was the only time she'd ever been a man and that she found it slightly hard to handle "all that ego" and is somewhat glad to be "back to normal". (I have to admit that line could be seen as a tad on the nose, depending on how you chose to view it. But it's hardly a blip on the radar when it comes to issues that plagued that particular episode) So yeah, the conceit of the Doctor's people being able to change sex/race isn't new, it's just the first time we're going to see it in action with the protagonist. I don't think that it's pandering to those who want more representation, but merely the writers deciding to run with an idea that's been around for decades. The show has always reinvented itself slightly with each new Doctor, from the "base under siege" stories of the Second Doctor, the spy-thrillers of the Third, the Gothic horror and more sci-fi elements of the Fourth etc. Likewise each Doctor have been portrayed as markedly different men from each other; Nine was a hardened survivor plagued with guilt from the Time War, Ten was a dashing hero, Eleven was an eccentric "madman with a box", while Twelve is a jerk with a heart of gold. Opening the floor for female Doctors seems like the next logical step the show has been building to.
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Post by maximusarael020 on Jul 17, 2017 15:55:31 GMT
Yep! Riri (or aka Iron Heart) is basically female Iron Man. I don't really care that Iron Heart is a black teenage girl, only that she isn't particularly likeable or that well-written. Now Doctor Doom becoming the Infamous Iron Man as he attempts to be "good" is a far more interesting concept. I'm actually reading both those comics as we speak. I find them both enjoyable, but the Doom story line is more interesting. I think the problem with Riri's is they didn't really give her a chance to"find" herself before the Captain Hydra story, although she does pop up in the All New Wolverine. The Stark AI doesn't help her story at all I don't think.
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Post by maximusarael020 on Jul 17, 2017 15:59:05 GMT
As for those calling timing suspicious and the like, I have a genuine question, as I have been following Twitter, YouTube, and Facebook comments as well. At what point does something like this go from interesting story idea to "SJW pandering"?
Was it pandering when they turned Colonel Fury black? I think, for one, having the female Thor really worked because it allowed for the Unworthy Thor storyline.
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Post by Cyonan on Jul 17, 2017 16:01:21 GMT
That is one of the reasons i don't think a female Doctor is going to do well sadly. True, but I still love the Twelfth Doctor even though the writing for most of his tenure kinda sucked. Most of his episodes haven't been that brilliant really and it was obvious they couldn't figure out what to do with his character for most of S8. They clearly intended him to be a "darker" Doctor only to then backpedal away from actually following through with it, leaving the whole "Am I a good man?" subplot not really something the audience was questioning. (Also didn't help that Twelve was lumbered with Clara. Not only was this a companion who didn't gel with Twelve at all, but continuously took focus away from him, had no real characteristics beyond being a bossy egomaniac and kept being brought back, all because Moffat couldn't bear to let go of his creator's pet) I'm a bit concerned about Chris Chibnall now being the showrunner because his work for Doctor Who (or Torchwood) hasn't been particularly sterling and mostly average. Broadchurch also ended up losing momentum in it's second series because it ran into the same problem as Twin Peaks, where they had no idea what to do next after resolving the initial mystery. They only managed to reasonably salvage the plot of Broadchurch in Series 3 and give it a proper ending. Still, bad writing can't be chalked up to the Doctor now being female though, because all Doctors have had some utter clunkers. We can't fault Jodie if the writing isn't up to snuff. Same as it wasn't Colin Baker's fault that the Sixth Doctor wasn't particularly well liked or received during the 80s. The head of the BBC was actively trying to kill the show, his character was often written as an arrogant douche and was forced to wear a technocolour nightmare coat. Looking at Chibnall's work on Doctor Who and Torchwood it seems he's overly fond of having some kind of mystery, which poses the problem of either what happened in Broadchurch where they don't know what to do once it's resolved or every episode is just rehashing the same basic formula. It worked okay when he was just making the odd episode, but now he's the showrunner. When it comes to Jodie my biggest concern is that I know making the Doctor a woman now is at least partially because of the whole "PC let's make all our popular characters women" thing going on right now. Normally I'm opposed to doing that rather than just making new strong female characters that isn't "let's take a male character and slap boobs on them", but in the context of Doctor Who it can actually work(and as I noted, even if she's bad we wont be stuck with her for that long). Though because of that and in light of how Billy was written in S9, I'm sort of expecting her writing to be a whole lot of repeatedly pointing out that the Doctor is now a woman. In reality it should just be one scene after the regeneration where the Doctor makes a fuss about it(since all previous regenerations have been male, and the Doctor always fusses over their new body) and that's that, but I expect they just wont be able to leave it at that.
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Post by frosted on Jul 17, 2017 16:11:45 GMT
From Billy Piper on Twitter:
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Post by smilesja on Jul 17, 2017 16:17:42 GMT
Has there been any male companions before?
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Post by Heimdall on Jul 17, 2017 16:19:31 GMT
I've got no problems with it, but I have some concerns about how they'll handle it.
I keep remembering, for example, when I watched the first episode of Supergirl. I remember feeling like the screenwriters were screaming "girl power!" Every five minutes. They couldn't seem to go for long without the show making a point to emphasize her gender. I couldn't watch it without rolling my eyes and thinking "I get it! She's female! Are you ready to actually give me a reason to care about this character and story beyond 'female superhero OMG'?"
Thankfully they throttled back on that as the show went on, though I haven't watched it in a while.
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Post by maximusarael020 on Jul 17, 2017 16:27:27 GMT
Has there been any male companions before? Purely male companions? Unsure. Not since Doctor 9, anyway. There's Captain Jack and Rory, of course. Handles, if you count "him". I'm not a Whovian encyclopedia, however, so if someone told me differently I would believe them. I believe he references male companions, though.
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Post by smilesja on Jul 17, 2017 16:32:48 GMT
Female Thor? Ugh! 
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Post by Cyonan on Jul 17, 2017 16:39:18 GMT
As for those calling timing suspicious and the like, I have a genuine question, as I have been following Twitter, YouTube, and Facebook comments as well. At what point does something like this go from interesting story idea to "SJW pandering"? Was it pandering when they turned Colonel Fury black? I think, for one, having the female Thor really worked because it allowed for the Unworthy Thor storyline. I haven't read the comics, but in general I tend to not really like it when they just gender swap a character. Not even if technically they made it a "new character". It's more of a question of "Why do we have to make James Bond female? Why can't Bond be Bond and you make a new spy movie with a female lead?". I get that people think that female leads are scarce in certain genres, but the solution isn't to start removing the male leads and turning them into female characters. When they do something like make a female Thor what I see is "We want a popular female character but we don't think we can do that without her riding the coattails of our popular male character". The only reason I'm more okay with it for Doctor Who is because the Doctor(and Time Lords in general) is a character that was established a very long time ago to change on a regular basis with regeneration and every incarnation changes things up, some more than others. Making the Doctor a woman isn't really a bigger change of character than other regenerations. Although I will still ultimately call it SJW pandering if the writing for 13 is just pointing out that the Doctor is a woman now constantly. As I noted, that's pretty much what they did with Billy in S9. A lot of her dialogue is just confirming that she's still a black lesbian, which stops being character development after the first 30 seconds when you established that she's into women. The Doctor being a woman is fine. It's pandering if they linger on that fact beyond the first scene after regeneration(which it's established that the Doctor will always fuss over his new body), though.
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Post by Cyonan on Jul 17, 2017 16:45:10 GMT
Has there been any male companions before? There's Captain Jack but he wasn't really around more than a few episodes(which is a shame, because his character is amazing). Rory as well, though I would think a lot of fans would rather forget Amy and Rory. Other than that nobody in the new rebooted series that's noteworthy. There was plenty of male companions in Classic Who though. The show actually started off with both female and male companions from the first episode.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2017 16:45:11 GMT
I'm not impressed.
I'm excited to have a female doctor, I just don't think she's right for the part. There are many more actresses out there who would've been a far better fit.
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Post by smilesja on Jul 17, 2017 16:47:15 GMT
Has there been any male companions before? There's Captain Jack but he wasn't really around more than a few episodes(which is a shame, because his character is amazing). Rory as well, though I would think a lot of fans would rather forget Amy and Rory. Other than that nobody in the new rebooted series that's noteworthy. There was plenty of male companions in Classic Who though. The show actually started off with both female and male companions from the first episode. Hopefully there will be the first male companion in the new Who.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2017 16:47:17 GMT
Has there been any male companions before? There's Captain Jack but he wasn't really around more than a few episodes(which is a shame, because his character is amazing). Captain Jack was awesome. That last proper series of Torchwood with the kids being taken was fantastic. We don't talk about the US/UK collab season after that. 
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Post by maximusarael020 on Jul 17, 2017 16:50:35 GMT
Female Thor? Ugh! Well, it's not really female Thor. It's... Thor was on the moon with Colonel Fury, when Fury whispered something to Thor that made Thor "realize" he was unworthy to wield Mjolnir. He's been off going by the name "Odinson" for a while, also known as "the Unworthy Thor". Jane Foster has brain cancer (I think), and somehow is called to the moon where she picks up Mjolnir and becomes a new Thor. This isn't completely without precedence, as in the Secret Wars Battleworld, there was a whole battalion of "Thors". So now she is Thor, and Odinson still doesn't have a hammer, but he did find one at the end of the Unworthy Thor miniseries, but realized it's not for him, so the theory is that there's a Thor from maybe the Ultimates universe that's here to claim that version of Mjolnir. In the meantime he rides around on a magic goat wielding a magic battle axe, and his arm got chopped off so now that's made of Uru, the same thing Mjolnir is made out of. 
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Post by maximusarael020 on Jul 17, 2017 16:51:32 GMT
I'm not impressed. I'm excited to have a female doctor, I just don't think she's right for the part. There are many more actresses out there who would've been a far better fit. I was always hoping it would be Emma Watson... 
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2017 16:53:42 GMT
I'm not impressed. I'm excited to have a female doctor, I just don't think she's right for the part. There are many more actresses out there who would've been a far better fit. I was always hoping it would be Emma Watson...  Don't hit me.... she's not a good enough actress tho.
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Post by Cyonan on Jul 17, 2017 17:00:14 GMT
There's Captain Jack but he wasn't really around more than a few episodes(which is a shame, because his character is amazing). Rory as well, though I would think a lot of fans would rather forget Amy and Rory. Other than that nobody in the new rebooted series that's noteworthy. There was plenty of male companions in Classic Who though. The show actually started off with both female and male companions from the first episode. Hopefully there will be the first male companion in the new Who. To be honest right now I'm just hoping they can get a companion right again from a writing standpoint, regardless of their gender. I think Donna was the last companion that was actually any good. Companions like Amy and Clara kept stealing the show when they're supposed to be side characters. It's fine to give them their moments, but I've often heard certain seasons called "The Amy and Rory show" because of how prevalent they were over any sort of actual story for the Doctor who is supposed to be the show's main character. They should also stay away from any sort of romance arc with a companion. That's been done to death with the new Doctor Who already. There's Captain Jack but he wasn't really around more than a few episodes(which is a shame, because his character is amazing). Captain Jack was awesome. That last proper series of Torchwood with the kids being taken was fantastic. We don't talk about the US/UK collab season after that.  What's funny is that for all this talk of pandering, Jack was a character that would sleep with pretty much anything that moved and most people didn't seem to care because he was a well written character that wasn't there just to point out that one character trait repeatedly. Then again the show was run by Moffat for years and I'm not entirely convinced he is even aware Doctor Who existed before he took over.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2017 17:05:56 GMT
Captain Jack was awesome. That last proper series of Torchwood with the kids being taken was fantastic. We don't talk about the US/UK collab season after that.  What's funny is that for all this talk of pandering, Jack was a character that would sleep with pretty much anything that moved and most people didn't seem to care because he was a well written character that wasn't there just to point out that one character trait repeatedly. Then again the show was run by Moffat for years and I'm not entirely convinced he is even aware Doctor Who existed before he took over. I quit half way thru Capaldi's first season. I felt the quality had gone down and never gave a damn about Clara sooo... Have there been any companions close to the quality of Jack or River lately?
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Post by Cyonan on Jul 17, 2017 17:13:17 GMT
What's funny is that for all this talk of pandering, Jack was a character that would sleep with pretty much anything that moved and most people didn't seem to care because he was a well written character that wasn't there just to point out that one character trait repeatedly. Then again the show was run by Moffat for years and I'm not entirely convinced he is even aware Doctor Who existed before he took over. I quit half way thru Capaldi's first season. I felt the quality had gone down and never gave a damn about Clara sooo... Have there been any companions close to the quality of Jack or River lately? After they got rid of Clara the only companion that's been in the show is Bill, of which about the only good thing I can say about her is that she isn't stealing the show anymore. Other than that she seems to largely be there to point out that she's black, a lesbian, or make some kind of sci-fi reference. There's also a guy named Nardole that's been around in S9 probably about as much as Rory showed up back in those days, except he's a far better companion than Rory. I'd actually be okay with them bringing Nardole on full time.
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Post by Lady Artifice on Jul 17, 2017 17:14:45 GMT
Wait there's a female Iron Man? I knew about Thor.. Yep! Riri (or aka Iron Heart) is basically female Iron Man. Pepper Potts did it first. It's also far from a newfangled SJW crusade. Comics have been obsessed with giving male superheroes miniature distaff counterparts since the 50s. Even before Supergirl came on the scene, Lois Lane had a brief stint as "Superwoman." Also, Batgirl, X-23, Miss Sinister, SheHulk, Hawkgirl, Aquagirl, Harley Quinn, Miss Martian, Ms. Marvel, Dani Cage, Lady Octopus, and lots and lots of others are all designed as versions of established superheroes and supervillains but with breasts, and most of them have been around for decades. This isn't a new trend, it's an enduring obsession in the industry.
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Post by Lady Artifice on Jul 17, 2017 17:16:49 GMT
And also, just for the record, I've always seen it as lazy.
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Post by maximusarael020 on Jul 17, 2017 17:20:31 GMT
I was always hoping it would be Emma Watson...  Don't hit me.... she's not a good enough actress tho.AAAAHHHHHHH! WHAT?? But, I...I... Love her.  Valid opinion though.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2017 17:57:24 GMT
I quit half way thru Capaldi's first season. I felt the quality had gone down and never gave a damn about Clara sooo... Have there been any companions close to the quality of Jack or River lately? After they got rid of Clara the only companion that's been in the show is Bill, of which about the only good thing I can say about her is that she isn't stealing the show anymore. Other than that she seems to largely be there to point out that she's black, a lesbian, or make some kind of sci-fi reference. There's also a guy named Nardole that's been around in S9 probably about as much as Rory showed up back in those days, except he's a far better companion than Rory. I'd actually be okay with them bringing Nardole on full time. I assumed as much when I saw her announced, she seemed like a character made purely to appease the internet. I'm all for gay or black or female or anything you please really, I just don't like it when writers use any of those words as adjectives about the character. 
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