rekkampum
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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rekkampum
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rekkampum
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Post by rekkampum on Oct 17, 2024 11:11:09 GMT
I'm not going to be gaslit by a random on an internet forum who does not have any of my experiences about what racist behavior in this fandom constitutes. The most substantial material I referenced was promotional material for the second Mass Effect so he already had this history. It's not esoteric knowledge and it's no different than consuming the other Mass Effect-related media on the characters in the comics, etc. that were later released and referenced concurrently with the games. Is it obsessing to actually have been informed on who Kai Leng was prior to ME3 and disappointed in his portrayal? Of course not. You are the person who patronizingly told me to imagine why he supposedly wasn't unrelatable to me when he is. You can't now argue that my perspective on the character doeesn't matter now that you actually *are* wrong about how he is perceived by some of us. Seriously, go troll another thread. If people not seeing Kai Leng the way you do based on whatever comic or novel you're talking about was a big deal for you then yeah, that'd totally be obsessing. They're video games, and they're supposed to be able to stand on their own. If the key to liking a big character, if there is such a thing, is hidden in the game manual in the box that nobody reads then that's piss-poor presentation, and that's on the game developer. It doesn't change the boring-ass thing they put in the game. Not to say that I actually believe there's any material out there that would necessarily make Jacob interesting to the wider player base. And I'm not gaslighting you, I'm just disagreeing. Nobody in the world feels compelled to scour all available Mass Effect material before expressing themselves on an obvious eyesore of a character in the games, and not everybody is black and from a military family, or whatever. I happen to identify plenty with Grunt without being an unsocialized teenage dinosaur shark, myself, and Thane without being a weirdly ethical killer for hire trained by philosopher space blobs. Because their struggles and dilemmas about coming of age and being part of a legacy you don't fully know how or whether to appreciate, learning to hone aggression with purpose and loyalty, and atoning for your mistakes by facing the people you've hurt most deeply and accepting the ways you've truly failed as a person in order to do the best you can going forward, are pretty universally applicable. Which is the point. In contrast, most people get nothing from Jacob, because there's no struggle or dilemma to him. He's just a cookie-cutter nice guy action hero who doesn't worry overmuch about anything, including his asshole slaver dad once he's dead or locked away, surrounded by much more conflicted and interesting characters. Unless you jump his bones, at which point he turns out to be a bit of a cheating manchild. Which is really weird character writing if you want someone to be widely relatable and popular in the fandom. And you're the one railing about other people's opinions on Jacob being invalid just because you don't like them, and Kanye West memes are racist, apparently. I think it's nice that there's someone out there who enjoys him, for whatever reason. But that certainly doesn't mean he deserves to be popular! It wouldn't be because it was a common sentiment used by players who'd read the source material and compared Kai Leng's portrayal in ME3 to it. This happens all the time. Mac Walters in fact was even a lead writer of the comics in addition to ME 2 and 3, and that doesn't include Karpyshyn's OOG books that people read and talk about despite him also being a writer for the games. There's nothing wrong with not being interested in the material; that doesn't mean that people who are being excessive by looking at material meant to be read alongside it. People are already speculating about how Maevaris will appear in the next Dragon Age game, and her character debut is in media most players will not even have read. Guess who wrote her debut and also wrote the first Dragon Age games? Secondly, it isn't a disagreement. I literally have told you that even moderators on the site have acknowledged the problem and asked me to report them and you insist on telling me that I'm somehow mistaking a person's negative opinion of a character with them as if I've made this all up for fun. Do you see me harassing other people in here criticizing Jacob as a character and calling them racist? Demanding that they have to like him as a character? Saying that he's perfect when he obviously isn't? Not anywhere. Because this forum isn't filled with trolls doing or saying what they do. Also, your segue into how relatable or unrelatable other characters are has nothing to do with my criticisms of fan reactions because none of my issues are in that place. Like Ellis, who actually is tied to a character in BW's games - Cullen - is infamous for his behavior outside of the games to the point that he is not returning to Dragon Age, but no one would be silly enough to conflate who he is as a person with the fictional character he portrayed and post innumerable memes in stereotypical language or claim Cullen shares his VA's political views. The double standard is just unsurprising at this point.
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Noxluxe
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Post by Noxluxe on Oct 18, 2024 9:48:35 GMT
It wouldn't be because it was a common sentiment used by players who'd read the source material and compared Kai Leng's portrayal in ME3 to it. This happens all the time. Mac Walters in fact was even a lead writer of the comics in addition to ME 2 and 3, and that doesn't include Karpyshyn's OOG books that people read and talk about despite him also being a writer for the games. There's nothing wrong with not being interested in the material; that doesn't mean that people who are being excessive by looking at material meant to be read alongside it. People are already speculating about how Maevaris will appear in the next Dragon Age game, and her character debut is in media most players will not even have read. Guess who wrote her debut and also wrote the first Dragon Age games? Secondly, it isn't a disagreement. I literally have told you that even moderators on the site have acknowledged the problem and asked me to report them and you insist on telling me that I'm somehow mistaking a person's negative opinion of a character with them as if I've made this all up for fun. Do you see me harassing other people in here criticizing Jacob as a character and calling them racist? Demanding that they have to like him as a character? Saying that he's perfect when he obviously isn't? Not anywhere. Because this forum isn't filled with trolls doing or saying what they do. Also, your segue into how relatable or unrelatable other characters are has nothing to do with my criticisms of fan reactions because none of my issues are in that place. Like Ellis, who actually is tied to a character in BW's games - Cullen - is infamous for his behavior outside of the games to the point that he is not returning to Dragon Age, but no one would be silly enough to conflate who he is as a person with the fictional character he portrayed and post innumerable memes in stereotypical language or claim Cullen shares his VA's political views. The double standard is just unsurprising at this point. Your first and third paragraphs have nothing to do with anything we've talked about. You were complaining about people expressing opinions on Jacob without reading the comics, in case something in the comics would redeem his character for them. I responded that the vast majority of the people who play the games never touch those things, in part because he's in them, and their reaction to Jacob as a presence in the actual games is perfectly valid. You expecting them to have read everything pertaining to him outside the games before criticizing him is ridiculous and obsessive, as would be the case with Kai Leng. And the "segue" is a clarification of how character relatability actually works, seeing as you're confused about it and think that personally sharing superficial traits and background elements with a character is the same as them being a relatable character when discussing it with people who don't necessarily share your background. You can just go back and read it again, if you didn't get it the first time. The writers carrying over and there being a few people on the internet who discuss the promotional material has no bearing on any of that. I don't know anything about Cullen's VA's political views or who "Ellis" is, how that's a double standard, or why any of it matters to a conversation about Jacob. Secondly, you dismissing opinions on Jacob by those who haven't read everything about him outside the games, and complaining about people voicing opinions you don't like in a thread about him, are both totally blatant examples of you objecting to other people having and voicing views you oppose. It's kind of hilarious that you don't see that, and accuse me of trying to take your opinions away from you, when I've only addressed your actual arguments and the standards for racism you've posed that sounded, and sound, strange. Your supposed discussions with moderators about whatever objectionable behavior you've observed don't concern or mean anything to me. But like I said, it's nice that some people can at least enjoy Jacob at face value on the basis that they have something in common with his background.
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rekkampum
N2
Gui meɖi naneke o, gake ŋudͻwͻnu le eŋu
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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rekkampum
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Post by rekkampum on Oct 18, 2024 17:59:54 GMT
It wouldn't be because it was a common sentiment used by players who'd read the source material and compared Kai Leng's portrayal in ME3 to it. This happens all the time. Mac Walters in fact was even a lead writer of the comics in addition to ME 2 and 3, and that doesn't include Karpyshyn's OOG books that people read and talk about despite him also being a writer for the games. There's nothing wrong with not being interested in the material; that doesn't mean that people who are being excessive by looking at material meant to be read alongside it. People are already speculating about how Maevaris will appear in the next Dragon Age game, and her character debut is in media most players will not even have read. Guess who wrote her debut and also wrote the first Dragon Age games? Secondly, it isn't a disagreement. I literally have told you that even moderators on the site have acknowledged the problem and asked me to report them and you insist on telling me that I'm somehow mistaking a person's negative opinion of a character with them as if I've made this all up for fun. Do you see me harassing other people in here criticizing Jacob as a character and calling them racist? Demanding that they have to like him as a character? Saying that he's perfect when he obviously isn't? Not anywhere. Because this forum isn't filled with trolls doing or saying what they do. Also, your segue into how relatable or unrelatable other characters are has nothing to do with my criticisms of fan reactions because none of my issues are in that place. Like Ellis, who actually is tied to a character in BW's games - Cullen - is infamous for his behavior outside of the games to the point that he is not returning to Dragon Age, but no one would be silly enough to conflate who he is as a person with the fictional character he portrayed and post innumerable memes in stereotypical language or claim Cullen shares his VA's political views. The double standard is just unsurprising at this point. Your first and third paragraphs have nothing to do with anything we've talked about. You were complaining about people expressing opinions on Jacob without reading the comics, in case something in the comics would redeem his character for them. I responded that the vast majority of the people who play the games never touch those things, in part because he's in them, and their reaction to Jacob as a presence in the actual games is perfectly valid. You expecting them to have read everything pertaining to him outside the games before criticizing him is ridiculous and obsessive, as would be the case with Kai Leng. And the "segue" is a clarification of how character relatability actually works, seeing as you're confused about it and think that personally sharing superficial traits and background elements with a character is the same as them being a relatable character when discussing it with people who don't necessarily share your background. You can just go back and read it again, if you didn't get it the first time. The writers carrying over and there being a few people on the internet who discuss the promotional material has no bearing on any of that. I don't know anything about Cullen's VA's political views or who "Ellis" is, how that's a double standard, or why any of it matters to a conversation about Jacob. Secondly, you dismissing opinions on Jacob by those who haven't read everything about him outside the games, and complaining about people voicing opinions you don't like in a thread about him, are both totally blatant examples of you objecting to other people having and voicing views you oppose. It's kind of hilarious that you don't see that, and accuse me of trying to take your opinions away from you, when I've only addressed your actual arguments and the standards for racism you've posed that sounded, and sound, strange. Your supposed discussions with moderators about whatever objectionable behavior you've observed don't concern or mean anything to me. But like I said, it's nice that some people can at least enjoy Jacob at face value on the basis that they have something in common with his background. I don't expect them to read all of the content, but when talking about characters in canon, being even moderately informed is expected - and plenty of this info can be found in wikis. There were folks speaking generally, who were saying things that are demonstrably false, and just like with other characters, would be corrected. The same naturally applies to Jacob, whose history is even mentioned in-game via the link I cited showing footage directly from Mass Effect 2. It's like a person incorrectly claiming - for sake of argument - that Miranda wasn't in charge of the Lazarus project and basing their judgment of her on that falsehood. Anyone would correct that. Jacob should not be seen as an exception yet he is being treated as such. You can still dislike him knowing that info. You also repeatedly claiming I am "obsessive"; me mentioning these things and the fact that the content used is literally referenced in-games (even Adjutants, who first appeared in comics, made their debut in ME3) was to point out that it was perfectly reasonable to factor them into how the games utilized them. I even said in my last response to you that it was perfectly fine *not* to be interested in OOG material. My mentioning discussions of lore was to point out this disparity, because plenty of the other characters in the series get that level of attention - plenty in here can easily talk about the history of TIM thanks to the comic or characters like Grayson etc. that were written about in books, not to mention the comic that discussed various characters like the Foundation series. Fans in general (not speaking of this forum in particular) can theorize - and often do! - about all kinds of gaming concepts etc. but would rather spend their time parroting tired memes repeatedly instead of granting any of that diligence to Jacob. I really don't get how pointing out this disparity is seen as an invalidation of their opinions. They literally do not have opinions to give. And since you insist on misrepresenting me, people in the subreddit I have mentioned have claimed Jacob is a r*pist, that he was better off being killed than even recruited(perpetuating the idea you literally cited in your discussion of devs writing "People of Color" that we are disposable), speaking in jive slang when referencing him, and myriad other things - including incorrectly ascribing stereotypes to him that I personally have to deal with as someone Black. Those things have nothing to do with how players in general perceive him in terms of the actual plot in Mass Effect as someone who is boring to them. I mentioned my frustrations with the people who inhabit that sub demonstrating the fandom is not as diverse and you initially objected and even argued that them not saying things that could be perceived as racist is difficult. I pointed out that such a thing is easy and that plenty of people - including those in this thread - have. There is no evidence in my comments that I think people who dislike Jacob are automatically such and have spent none of my time bothering people in here who criticized and spoke negatively of him, so it's demonstrably false that I am simply trying to argue their opinions are invalid. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You specifically mocked me pointing out how their behavior is racist with respect to them literally associating random Black people who have no connection to said-character with Jacob and engaging in stereotypical behavior. Then you used the highly coincidental point that to some people he resembles Kanye as an excuse for why it was excusable; mind you these trolls have even gone as far as calling him a Nazi and making references to things Kanye actually did before. Greg Ellis was the voice actor for Cullen; as pointed out by me, he has a notorious history now and is nolonger associated with Dragon Age because of it(this was announced by Darrah himself), and none of the folks who talk about Cullen would use that history to describe the character himself because it makes no sense to. They are entirely different figures. That is the double standard in that Kanye isn't even affiliated with Bioware let alone the actual person Jacob is modeled after yet folks doing said-things are being given passes to do so. And when we point out how this feels to us, we're gaslit like we only hate it because "different opinions". I am not confused about relatability. Not every character is going to be relatable, (EDIT: this includes other Black players). I just know that no one goes into character threads like you have trolling me and acting like your interpretation of characters are the only ones that are correct and then trying to tell me, an actual Black person, what I should be considering when it comes to how he was portrayed. You explicitly told me that I should be asking why he isn't relatable at all; I pointed out that he actually is, and you've tried to discredit that, once again, by comparing him to entirely different characters as-if your interpretation of the character is the standard I should be using and continue to imply my ability to relate to him is superficial. It isn't. I'm not obligated to follow your standards when it comes to establishing whether characters are relatable any more than you should be using mine. Lastly, nothing is more telling than the fact that you are now consistently being negative (I don't think your first posts were) in what is otherwise supposed to be a constructive space for players who DO empathize with Jacob, just like other character threads are. If you were doing this in others by accusing me of simply disliking dissenting opinions, members would've already politely directed you to make your own threads on those issues, not inundate theirs. Yet those of us who actually like Jacob can't even be offered that shred of dignity. So I'm sorry, I highly doubt you actually respect us at all.
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rekkampum
N2
Gui meɖi naneke o, gake ŋudͻwͻnu le eŋu
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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November 2016
rekkampum
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by rekkampum on Oct 18, 2024 18:48:03 GMT
Anyway, I really am just going to ignore that person now and not allow myself to continue bogging down this space anymore. Jacob deserves better.
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Returning to the actual topic, in reference to his character, I often wonder what Jacob's future will be like post-ME3 and how those events will change him. One thing I really liked is that Jacob really has settled in and become more of a figure trying to focus not only on his literal family, but also his responsibilities to his symbolic one i.e. the other scientists etc. I know we probably won't see him in ME 5 but I do at the very least hope there are some kind of references we can get. If he doesn't romance Femshep he's an absolute bro, and if he does, he at least is trying to be accountable for his failure by remaining faithful to Brynn even as he still maintains feelings for Femshep. It was really bittersweet for me - at least when I was romancing him - but at least Citadel gave us that closure.
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