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Post by zeowik on Mar 22, 2017 16:12:30 GMT
Edit: I quoted a quote by mistake but most of my post was general commentary anyway. Just making sure it's clear it's not exclusively directed at these comments. All of that aside, I think that the single gender orientations should be, more or less, designed for players of that type. If I, as a straight woman, like a particular m/m romance, that's nice and all, but I do think they should be designed for gay male players. The same is true for the lesbian romances. Of course, that's not to say that a m/m romance designed for the gay male player can't have its share of sap and sweetness; to deny that some men enjoy that would be a disservice to them. Yeah, I agree with all of that ! Designed for players of that type? Not everyone likes the same thing. This kind of reasoning is why characters like Jaal seem to always be straight (I still can't believe they had the audacity to tease him so badly). I mean no offense but it reminds me of thier "it has to make sense" comment. It is part of what I am upset about. They already do this, sometimes uncomfortably connecting the dots with stereotypes. That said I acknowledge you said single gender not bi, but it is part of the mentality that suggests orientation should be some core trait rather than something that happens to be part of the characters. Stereotypes and that kind of design are fine sometimes of course, but thier "It has to make sense." thing annoys me on a level that "Oh hi by the way I'm transgender." does. I'm not transgender so I can't speak for people like that but even as an outsider that annoys me terribly.
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Post by Frhozen on Mar 22, 2017 16:27:04 GMT
Edit: I quoted a quote by mistake but most of my post was general commentary anyway. Just making sure it's clear it's not exclusively directed at these comments. Yeah, I agree with all of that ! Designed for players of that type? Not everyone likes the same thing. This kind of reasoning is why characters like Jaal seem to always be straight (I still can't believe they had the audacity to tease him so badly). I mean no offense but it reminds me of thier "it has to make sense" comment. It is part of what I am upset about. They already do this, sometimes uncomfortably connecting the dots with stereotypes. That said I acknowledge you said single gender not bi, but it is part of the mentality that suggests orientation should be some core trait rather than something that happens to be part of the characters. Stereotypes and that kind of design are fine sometimes of course, but thier "It has to make sense." thing annoys me on a level that "Oh hi by the way I'm transgender." does. I'm not transgender so I can't speak for people like that but even as an outsider that annoys me terribly. I don't think that she necessarily meant that the characters should be built around their orientations, more that the romance scenes and stories themselves should be written and created with those particular groups of people in mind. Of course, not all gay men like the same stuff or have the same tastes, nor do all lesbian women but I would think that there can be certain things in M/M romances that would generally appeal to straight women but not so much to most gay men and there are definitely things in F/F romances that generally appeal to straight men but not so much to most lesbian women. Or, to put it short: actually use gay male test audiences/players for gay male scenes and gay female test audiences/players for gay female scenes. Also, while I certainly agree that characters' personalities should not be built around their orientations, knowing what their orientation is early on can certainly help with the overall writing and design process because it often informs the character's background. I mean, in a setting like Mass Effect's where widespread, socially ingrained homophobia presumably doesn't exist, being gay probably won't have had that much of an impact on a character's background but if you're writing a story in a modern-day setting, for example? That could have had a major impact on their experiences as a teenager and young adult which would have probably affected to some degree how they view certain things, approach certain situations, etc. Writing gay characters as gay characters doesn't necessarily mean forcing them into tired old stereotypes.
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Post by mikeymoonshine on Mar 22, 2017 16:51:39 GMT
I predicted something like this back when Mac Walters made that comment about making side romances to "address balance", didn't think it would be this bad though. I'd be fine with less if they were well written but it really seems like an afterthought.
Can't even claim realism either with all these bisexual women all over the place. Bioware really has massively under delivered with this game in so many ways.
I'm actually regretting pre-ordering now. I probably would have bought it anyway even if I hadn't pre-ordered but I am not buying from them again until I know what I am paying for, I don't trust them anymore.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Mar 22, 2017 16:53:46 GMT
Edit: I quoted a quote by mistake but most of my post was general commentary anyway. Just making sure it's clear it's not exclusively directed at these comments. Yeah, I agree with all of that ! Designed for players of that type? Not everyone likes the same thing. This kind of reasoning is why characters like Jaal seem to always be straight (I still can't believe they had the audacity to tease him so badly). I mean no offense but it reminds me of thier "it has to make sense" comment. It is part of what I am upset about. They already do this, sometimes uncomfortably connecting the dots with stereotypes. That said I acknowledge you said single gender not bi, but it is part of the mentality that suggests orientation should be some core trait rather than something that happens to be part of the characters. Stereotypes and that kind of design are fine sometimes of course, but thier "It has to make sense." thing annoys me on a level that "Oh hi by the way I'm transgender." does. I'm not transgender so I can't speak for people like that but even as an outsider that annoys me terribly. My counter argument is that I've seen some people say that Dorian's romance was designed to appeal to straight women. I don't agree, in fact thought it was offensive, but it IS a mentality that some people have. This is why I added the remark about "sap and sweetness." And can you truly deny that a romance like Cullen's or Alistair's was not designed to appeal to straight women? Yes, I know there are some gay players would would have LOVED to romance either of those guys. I don't think that's a bad thing, nor do I think it says anything particular about those players. That doesn't take away from the reality of how those romances were designed. So, I hold that the same can be true for romances made to appeal to gay male players. I'm going to give a sort of crude example involving porn. Cockyboys makes gay male porn for gay men. It so happens that their particular style is also appealing to many women. The fact that some women like it doesn't take away from the fact that the primary audience is men -- men like "pretty" things too, and porn that can be more intimate in style. I think they've embraced that as a studio, but it likely was not their goal when they started, and I don't imagine that the bulk of their revenue comes from women. I know that not everyone likes the same thing, which is why I made my argument for fade to black in a previous post. And I do agree that they need to branch beyond stereotypes. This is why the KISA thread (somewhere around here...) exists, whose conceit I wholly support. However, having a character who is NOT a stereotype or that doesn't fall into tropes is not mutually exclusive with designing a romance to appeal to a particular demographic. You can have both. Here is a counter example. Before Cullen and Solas were added due to the additional development time, the only male choices for women were Blackwall and Iron Bull, neither of which I consider typical female-oriented romances. (Yes, I know those have their female fans.) I don't consider Blackwall to be tropey, and there is nothing about the romance that says "super straight." They could have made him gay or bi and it would change nothing about the character or his romance, and I know there are a bunch of gay guys who wanted to cuddle with that bear of a man. As I said in that post, even as a straight woman, none of the male romances for my demographic appealed to me, neither am I a fan of Alistair, Zevran, or Anders; I romance Fenris in DA2. Tortured, dark, and angsty is my thing, which is what I find appealing with both Fenris and Dorian. [edit] David Gaider even said that he wrote Fenris with a male Hawke in mind, and I'd also suggest that the Anders romance leans strongly that way as well, even if they're bi.
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Vy
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Stay strong and queer!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy
Origin: Vythandal
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Post by Vy on Mar 22, 2017 17:50:52 GMT
Frhozen Contacting Jim Sterling seems worth a shot - I loved the video he did where he shredded the arguments against having gay romances in ME3, especially when he whipped out the Saints Row penetrator to prove a point.
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Post by Frhozen on Mar 22, 2017 19:26:30 GMT
Frhozen Contacting Jim Sterling seems worth a shot - I loved the video he did where he shredded the arguments against having gay romances in ME3, especially when he whipped out the Saints Row penetrator to prove a point. He also did a great video on Dragon Age: Inquisition's same-sex romances (or rather about the idiots who complained about them). Might be a bit NSFW - and keep in mind it's satire:
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2017 19:47:44 GMT
I don't know what I could say that others haven't already said (some probably better then I could). However, I will say it really was a kick to the chest that the "surprise" in the romances was there just simply weren't any options for gay males. We have one full romance, and a fling. If you are only into full romances, you have no options. Does Reyes even trigger the trophy we can't get? Who knows...
From what I've heard the Reyes romance has more content in some ways then Gil, but I can't speak on that as I haven't seen the scenes yet. All I know is neither are the romances I wanted. My expectations were low going into Andromeda. I knew I'd most likely only have 2 options. I just expected at least one of them would be on the squad-and for sure both of them would be on the ship at least. I was wrong.
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Post by duskwanderer on Mar 23, 2017 2:55:09 GMT
I honestly think that no one will ever be satisfied with romances. Gays will whine about this, straights will whine about that. This game doesn't give women good options, this one considers men an afterthought.
I don't even know why people complain like this.
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Post by Dirk on Mar 23, 2017 3:01:33 GMT
Just an update: people on Twitter are using #MakeJaalBi to voice their dissatisfaction on the m/m romance. You are welcome to do the same.
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Vy
N2
Stay strong and queer!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy
Origin: Vythandal
Posts: 241 Likes: 1,338
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Post by Vy on Mar 23, 2017 3:59:55 GMT
So, I went ahead and whipped up a note to Bioware (it's in the spoiler to save screen space). It's certainly not as long, original, or eloquent as some others I've seen, but it's a start. Feedback and suggestions on where to post a "finalized" version are welcome. First of all, I'd like to extend my congratulations on the recent launch of Mass Effect: Andromeda. I can only imagine how exciting this must be, to see a game you've spent years developing finally being released and played by people around the world.
As a bisexual man, I've appreciated Bioware's efforts to include content for their LGBT fans over the years, as in games like Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect 3, and Dragon Age: Inquisition. When I first played it as a teenager, Mass Effect was one of the first science-fiction franchises I'd seen that had multiple heroic, likable gay and bisexual people in important roles; the fact that it was a role-playing video game that let me participate in the story made it even more special. Given that I was struggling to reconcile my sexuality with my homophobic conservative religious upbringing at the time, this type of inclusion and positive representation meant a lot to me. The Mass Effect trilogy earned a very special place in my heart because it taught me that I still mattered, and that my sexuality didn't make me any less competent, moral, or deserving of love and dignity than anybody else, at a time when the environment around me was screaming the opposite.
That said, Mass Effect: Andromeda feels like it has taken a large step backwards in this regard, which I find concerning. There is an alarming difference in the number of romance options available to a straight Scott Ryder and those available to a gay Scott. Players who want their Scott Ryder to be straight have five romance options to choose from: Cora, Vetra, Peebee, Keri, and Avela, of which three (Cora, Vetra, and Peebee) are permanent squadmates.
If a player wants Scott Ryder to be an openly gay protagonist, on the other hand, they only have two romance options to choose from: Reyes and Gil. Of those two, Reyes isn't a member of the Tempest crew, and by extension, the consistent core cast of heroes throughout the game. In fact, he can be completely absent from a given playthrough. Additionally, several details in his romance scenes indicate that the animations for Scott were essentially copy-pasted from Sara's version of the romance, with little to no adjustment for height and body size. While Gil is a member of the Tempest crew, he also isn't a squadmate, which severely cuts down on the amount of content that is associated with squadmates by default, such as squad banter, loyalty missions, and simply being able to spend time with them on away missions.
Between the low number of romance options, the relegation of said romance options to side or supporting characters who are easy to avoid, and statements from developers stating that they are perfectly satisfied with the current set of available options, it's very easy to get the impression that gay and bisexual men in Mass Effect: Andromeda are being intentionally sidelined or treated as an afterthought.
I was looking forward to playing Mass Effect: Andromeda, in large part because I was excited about the idea of playing a gay male protagonist who could go on space adventures alongside their love interest, an experience which no AAA game has provided since Mass Effect 3. Mass Effect taught me that I don't have to be sidelined for my sexuality, and that I can be just as important as heterosexual people. It's for this reason that I cannot in good conscience financially support Mass Effect: Andromeda.
I hope that this feedback will be helpful in Bioware's efforts to improve treatment of gay and bisexual men (among other minorities) in their games, and that future titles will live up to the reputation of inclusion and respect that has become associated with Bioware.
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Post by leomerya12 on Mar 23, 2017 4:07:25 GMT
I predicted something like this back when Mac Walters made that comment about making side romances to "address balance", didn't think it would be this bad though. I'd be fine with less if they were well written but it really seems like an afterthought. Can't even claim realism either with all these bisexual women all over the place. Bioware really has massively under delivered with this game in so many ways. I'm actually regretting pre-ordering now. I probably would have bought it anyway even if I hadn't pre-ordered but I am not buying from them again until I know what I am paying for, I don't trust them anymore. THIS. They've lost my trust as well. I will no longer pre-order a BioWare game, because with preorders, what would motivate them to appeal to everyone equally?
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Post by leomerya12 on Mar 23, 2017 4:15:59 GMT
I honestly think that no one will ever be satisfied with romances. Gays will whine about this, straights will whine about that. This game doesn't give women good options, this one considers men an afterthought. I don't even know why people complain like this. Duskwanderer, thank you for your input! I will say that "I honestly think..." is not accurate, but that you mean, "BioWare will not please everyone, all of the time." This is true. That does not mean, however, that everyone of a certain demographic will be displeased all of the time, just because. Quite the adjacent, really, in that, when done well, most people will be satisfied. And this is where we come in now; we are generally, as a consensus, dissatisfied, because these options are, empirically, subpar. TL:DR BioWare can't please everyone. But they sure as hell can do a better job to make sure most of us are happy. Not being able to please everyone is no excuse not to try your very best.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2017 4:42:32 GMT
So, I went ahead and whipped up a note to Bioware (it's in the spoiler to save screen space). It's certainly not as long, original, or eloquent as some others I've seen, but it's a start. Feedback and suggestions on where to post a "finalized" version are welcome. First of all, I'd like to extend my congratulations on the recent launch of Mass Effect: Andromeda. I can only imagine how exciting this must be, to see a game you've spent years developing finally being released and played by people around the world.
As a bisexual man, I've appreciated Bioware's efforts to include content for their LGBT fans over the years, as in games like Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect 3, and Dragon Age: Inquisition. When I first played it as a teenager, Mass Effect was one of the first science-fiction franchises I'd seen that had multiple heroic, likable gay and bisexual people in important roles; the fact that it was a role-playing video game that let me participate in the story made it even more special. Given that I was struggling to reconcile my sexuality with my homophobic conservative religious upbringing at the time, this type of inclusion and positive representation meant a lot to me. The Mass Effect trilogy earned a very special place in my heart because it taught me that I still mattered, and that my sexuality didn't make me any less competent, moral, or deserving of love and dignity than anybody else, at a time when the environment around me was screaming the opposite.
That said, Mass Effect: Andromeda feels like it has taken a large step backwards in this regard, which I find concerning. There is an alarming difference in the number of romance options available to a straight Scott Ryder and those available to a gay Scott. Players who want their Scott Ryder to be straight have five romance options to choose from: Cora, Vetra, Peebee, Keri, and Avela, of which three (Cora, Vetra, and Peebee) are permanent squadmates.
If a player wants Scott Ryder to be an openly gay protagonist, on the other hand, they only have two romance options to choose from: Reyes and Gil. Of those two, Reyes isn't a member of the Tempest crew, and by extension, the consistent core cast of heroes throughout the game. In fact, he can be completely absent from a given playthrough. Additionally, several details in his romance scenes indicate that the animations for Scott were essentially copy-pasted from Sara's version of the romance, with little to no adjustment for height and body size. While Gil is a member of the Tempest crew, he also isn't a squadmate, which severely cuts down on the amount of content that is associated with squadmates by default, such as squad banter, loyalty missions, and simply being able to spend time with them on away missions.
Between the low number of romance options, the relegation of said romance options to side or supporting characters who are easy to avoid, and statements from developers stating that they are perfectly satisfied with the current set of available options, it's very easy to get the impression that gay and bisexual men in Mass Effect: Andromeda are being intentionally sidelined or treated as an afterthought.
I was looking forward to playing Mass Effect: Andromeda, in large part because I was excited about the idea of playing a gay male protagonist who could go on space adventures alongside their love interest, an experience which no AAA game has provided since Mass Effect 3. Mass Effect taught me that I don't have to be sidelined for my sexuality, and that I can be just as important as heterosexual people. It's for this reason that I cannot in good conscience financially support Mass Effect: Andromeda.
I hope that this feedback will be helpful in Bioware's efforts to improve treatment of gay and bisexual men (among other minorities) in their games, and that future titles will live up to the reputation of inclusion and respect that has become associated with Bioware. Genuine and well said. The only advice I have is to change 'alarming' to something like "disheartening". I found alarming didn't suit the general tone going on up to that point and interrupted the flow. This may require changing "difference" to "disparity" but that still makes a nasty alliteration."Inequality", maybe? Imbalance? "disheartening imbalance"? Something like that, if you want.
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Vy
N2
Stay strong and queer!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy
Origin: Vythandal
Posts: 241 Likes: 1,338
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Sept 19, 2019 1:24:28 GMT
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Stay strong and queer!
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Post by Vy on Mar 23, 2017 4:46:35 GMT
So, I went ahead and whipped up a note to Bioware (it's in the spoiler to save screen space). It's certainly not as long, original, or eloquent as some others I've seen, but it's a start. Feedback and suggestions on where to post a "finalized" version are welcome. First of all, I'd like to extend my congratulations on the recent launch of Mass Effect: Andromeda. I can only imagine how exciting this must be, to see a game you've spent years developing finally being released and played by people around the world.
As a bisexual man, I've appreciated Bioware's efforts to include content for their LGBT fans over the years, as in games like Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect 3, and Dragon Age: Inquisition. When I first played it as a teenager, Mass Effect was one of the first science-fiction franchises I'd seen that had multiple heroic, likable gay and bisexual people in important roles; the fact that it was a role-playing video game that let me participate in the story made it even more special. Given that I was struggling to reconcile my sexuality with my homophobic conservative religious upbringing at the time, this type of inclusion and positive representation meant a lot to me. The Mass Effect trilogy earned a very special place in my heart because it taught me that I still mattered, and that my sexuality didn't make me any less competent, moral, or deserving of love and dignity than anybody else, at a time when the environment around me was screaming the opposite.
That said, Mass Effect: Andromeda feels like it has taken a large step backwards in this regard, which I find concerning. There is an alarming difference in the number of romance options available to a straight Scott Ryder and those available to a gay Scott. Players who want their Scott Ryder to be straight have five romance options to choose from: Cora, Vetra, Peebee, Keri, and Avela, of which three (Cora, Vetra, and Peebee) are permanent squadmates.
If a player wants Scott Ryder to be an openly gay protagonist, on the other hand, they only have two romance options to choose from: Reyes and Gil. Of those two, Reyes isn't a member of the Tempest crew, and by extension, the consistent core cast of heroes throughout the game. In fact, he can be completely absent from a given playthrough. Additionally, several details in his romance scenes indicate that the animations for Scott were essentially copy-pasted from Sara's version of the romance, with little to no adjustment for height and body size. While Gil is a member of the Tempest crew, he also isn't a squadmate, which severely cuts down on the amount of content that is associated with squadmates by default, such as squad banter, loyalty missions, and simply being able to spend time with them on away missions.
Between the low number of romance options, the relegation of said romance options to side or supporting characters who are easy to avoid, and statements from developers stating that they are perfectly satisfied with the current set of available options, it's very easy to get the impression that gay and bisexual men in Mass Effect: Andromeda are being intentionally sidelined or treated as an afterthought.
I was looking forward to playing Mass Effect: Andromeda, in large part because I was excited about the idea of playing a gay male protagonist who could go on space adventures alongside their love interest, an experience which no AAA game has provided since Mass Effect 3. Mass Effect taught me that I don't have to be sidelined for my sexuality, and that I can be just as important as heterosexual people. It's for this reason that I cannot in good conscience financially support Mass Effect: Andromeda.
I hope that this feedback will be helpful in Bioware's efforts to improve treatment of gay and bisexual men (among other minorities) in their games, and that future titles will live up to the reputation of inclusion and respect that has become associated with Bioware. Genuine and well said. The only advice I have is to change 'alarming' to something like "disheartening". I found alarming didn't suit the general tone going on up to that point and interrupted the flow. This may require changing "difference" to "disparity" but that still makes a nasty alliteration."Inequality", maybe? Imbalance? "disheartening imbalance"? Something like that, if you want. Thank you. Yeah, alarming felt like a weird word to begin with; I was certainly alarmed when I first heard the news, but that emotion was quickly replaced by others. "Disheartening imbalance" ....I really like that. Thanks for the suggestion!
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Post by vertigomez on Mar 23, 2017 5:39:08 GMT
Just an update: people on Twitter are using #MakeJaalBi to voice their dissatisfaction on the m/m romance. You are welcome to do the same. Found it (I HAVE LEARNED HOW TO TWIT THE TWEETER). With any luck, someone will listen. It's not even about Jaal tbh. It's the disparity.
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Post by zeowik on Mar 23, 2017 6:57:38 GMT
Just an update: people on Twitter are using #MakeJaalBi to voice their dissatisfaction on the m/m romance. You are welcome to do the same. Found it (I HAVE LEARNED HOW TO TWIT THE TWEETER). With any luck, someone will listen. It's not even about Jaal tbh. It's the disparity. It's not even only the disparity for me. It's the fact that how the m/m stuff is presented looks as if it was kept away to the side to not freak out straight male gamers that may take issue with it. I'm not saying they did it that way, but boy does it look bad. And there's the lack of option to flirt and be turned down after being promised that's how the game works? And there's the curious data mining being mostly accurate except for Jaal, as if if you could flirt he wouldn't shoot Scott down? It's like they botched this PR in every single way possible other than just not including m/m at all. I can't believe how badly they teased about Jaal too. At first I thought it was just me being drama, but I'm seeing people mention the teasing all over the place so it really must have looked that way. And for the #MakeJaalBi tag at first I was very uncomfortable, until remembering all the signs pointing to him being bi to begin with. Is that all just incorrect guesswork, and if not when did they change course? When I searched for the tag I thought I only saw a few tweets then realized I was only seeing the top tweets. I wonder how much activity that's getting from beyond these message boards. Of course this brings that stupid pendulum of hope back, which I thought would be long gone by now with everything set in stone.
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Post by Andrew Lucas on Mar 23, 2017 7:23:50 GMT
There you go, internet, always focusing on the important stuff, am I right?
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Post by rafflesz on Mar 23, 2017 7:27:56 GMT
So do people know yet definitively which romances got actual love scenes? I know about Cora, Peebee, and Jaal. I also read how Liam has one too and that what got posted to youtube was like a mid romance thing.
So the fade to blacks are Gil and Vetra and I assume Suvi since she is basically Gil's counterpart. I also know reyes got nothing at all xD Anyone have more info? I just really want to have everything in order for when the PR announcement comes. Just so I can side eye myself off the planet.
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Post by Panda on Mar 23, 2017 7:58:30 GMT
There you go, internet, always focusing on the important stuff, am I right? Yeah well, most important stuff for me at least in terms of buying this game or not
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: QunariPeen
Posts: 248 Likes: 665
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Post by qunaripenis on Mar 23, 2017 9:14:42 GMT
Just an update: people on Twitter are using #MakeJaalBi to voice their dissatisfaction on the m/m romance. You are welcome to do the same. At this point, I really don't give a shit if they make Jaal bi, left too sour a taste in my mouth with the equally shitty teasing. They just have to- no, need to do better than... this.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2017 10:09:47 GMT
Just an update: people on Twitter are using #MakeJaalBi to voice their dissatisfaction on the m/m romance. You are welcome to do the same. At this point, I really don't give a shit if they make Jaal bi, left too sour a taste in my mouth with the equally shitty teasing. They just have to- no, need to do better than... this. I'm the same. They can make Jaal bisexual, but the damage is already done. In general, queer men have been huge supporters of Bioware games, so it's kind of hilarious that the ME team thought that this could fly without much complaint. Being an afterthought doesn't sit well with me. It didn't sit well with me when I discovered Gil and Reyes had significantly less content than the rest of the companions, despite their supposed "add in to address the imbalance". I don't know what went on behind closed doors, but I agree that they need to do better than this.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2017 10:27:02 GMT
There you go, internet, always focusing on the important stuff, am I right? Yeah well, most important stuff for me at least in terms of buying this game or not Don't even waste your time on trolls, there is no point at all Some people always think that only their ''priorities'' are the most that matters, and wants them for all of us
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2017 10:29:42 GMT
I personally don't love that hashtag because it appears, on the surface, that the larger issue is that Jaal is straight. Which it isn't. It's that the devs have marginalized the gay audience once again by offering substandard options for that player base. Separate and unequal.
This dev team is clearly not the sharpest knives in the drawer. I'm absolutely not at all confident that they will be able to see that difference. So #makeJaalbi is going to be seen as exactly that -- 'Oh, they want Jaal to be bi!' Which at best will give us Jaal as a bisexual option either in an update, DLC, or sequel. Which is not at all what I want the takeaway to be. I don't want them to change a straight character into a bisexual character AGAIN . We all know how that will turn out -- with cut/paste animations designed for Sara, with certain romance content cut because it doesn't work for Scott, etc. I want them to design a character (ideally a male alien squadmate) from the outset as an option for Scott. I want that character to have as much content as the other squad mates. I want that character to have actual sex scenes with nudity. I want the care that was put into Cora and Pee Bee's scenes to be put into his scene.
And I'm not at all confident that this particular dev team will get that message with the 'makeJaalbi' hashtag. But, if that's the one that has traction, I suppose it's already happening. Nothing to do about it now but wait and see if they can differentiate what's being asked versus what's being hashtagged.
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Post by duskwanderer on Mar 23, 2017 11:08:08 GMT
I honestly think that no one will ever be satisfied with romances. Gays will whine about this, straights will whine about that. This game doesn't give women good options, this one considers men an afterthought. I don't even know why people complain like this. Duskwanderer, thank you for your input! I will say that "I honestly think..." is not accurate, but that you mean, "BioWare will not please everyone, all of the time." This is true. That does not mean, however, that everyone of a certain demographic will be displeased all of the time, just because. Quite the adjacent, really, in that, when done well, most people will be satisfied. And this is where we come in now; we are generally, as a consensus, dissatisfied, because these options are, empirically, subpar. TL:DR BioWare can't please everyone. But they sure as hell can do a better job to make sure most of us are happy. Not being able to please everyone is no excuse not to try your very best.This whining always seems to come from the same left-wing people. Look at all of the ridiculous amount of complaining they do, and what they complain about. "Cora's hair means she should be lesbian, or bi, not straight." "The handling of the transgender was BAAAAD!" "Jamie Clayton didn't voice a transgender character" "I can't get my achievement only by being gay" It's those sorts of arguments that make me want to play the game, just because it doesn't deal with this crap.
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Post by London on Mar 23, 2017 11:17:01 GMT
Duskwanderer, thank you for your input! I will say that "I honestly think..." is not accurate, but that you mean, "BioWare will not please everyone, all of the time." This is true. That does not mean, however, that everyone of a certain demographic will be displeased all of the time, just because. Quite the adjacent, really, in that, when done well, most people will be satisfied. And this is where we come in now; we are generally, as a consensus, dissatisfied, because these options are, empirically, subpar. TL:DR BioWare can't please everyone. But they sure as hell can do a better job to make sure most of us are happy. Not being able to please everyone is no excuse not to try your very best.This whining always seems to come from the same left-wing people. Look at all of the ridiculous amount of complaining they do, and what they complain about. "Cora's hair means she should be lesbian, or bi, not straight." "The handling of the transgender was BAAAAD!" "Jamie Clayton didn't voice a transgender character" "I can't get my achievement only by being gay" It's those sorts of arguments that make me want to play the game, just because it doesn't deal with this crap. Funny, i've seen mostly right-wing anti-sjw nutcases complain about Coras hair and how she looks like a lesbian. They complain there are transgendered characters at all.
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