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Post by zeowik on Mar 24, 2017 0:42:12 GMT
We are, actually, talking about what is and isn't fair. Did you actually read what I posted? "We have a lot of fans, many of whom are neither straight nor male, and they deserve no less attention."I'm sorry if you feel differently. Oh no.  Perhaps I should have worded that: rights and fairness are secondary to time and resources, and thus not the issue. You need to go a step further and identify what is the issue. It's not that Bioware intentionally neglected a part of their community and lied to people by having a lack of male-male romances, it's that time/resources were not managed in a way to be able to provide the same level of experience for all players... and you know what? That's okay. Shit happens, deadlines are missed, problems arise- but you are just assuming that Bioware is out to get you. You should read the 'things change', but why have a civil discussion when you just resort to pettiness? The fact the Bioware listens at all to people who act like you is worthy of praise. It's not just that though. They teased Jaal relentlessly letting people get excited for months as they said how awesome he is (and how he is awesome personality wise), all while refusing to say they were making him straight. They promised characters would make it clear they weren't interested early on after meeting them so people weren't strung along. Combine that with files in the game that show his romance dialog not just doesn't exclude Scott, but specifically allows him, shows it's possible he may have been close to already being bi. Then it all leads back to the LIE: You can't even flirt with him as Scott to be turned down. They lied about that. Strung people along for months, refused to say if he's straight, said you could find out quickly in game, then reviewers even as high profile as IGN had no freaking idea if he was straight or not. It took people falsely saying he's bi in reviews for an anonymous dev to spill the beans. That's just wrong on so many levels. It's a big question too how much did they get done with the Scott/Jaal design and why did they cut it? The really, really, really bitter part of me makes up junk like: Well we know he goes down on Sara. I guess that would just be way too icky if it was on Scott too? Because clearly m/m is so much more serious than m/f or f/f. Or worse, if the ESRB would have rated it AO if it was Scott in a scene like that. Keep in mind I admit that's silly conspiracy theory nonsense, however they should at least say something. Why does he show bi in the game files, and why can you not flirt to be turned down since they promised you wouldn't be strung along and that's what they did for months and then continued into the game itself. Vicex Or perhaps, when time and resources are scarce and shit happens and deadlines are missed, gay content shouldn't be the first thing on the cutting room floor? Just a thought. Again, you are assuming it was the first thing cut (which is very unlikely)- that Bioware is targeting certain player. Any so-called 'evidence' I've seen saying Bioware is discriminating against gay content is circumstantial at best. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be content equal for all players, I'm just saying that development of games isn't a perfect system, and unfortunately not everyone will be satisfied to their prior expectations- despite the developer making no promises to do otherwise. Sure, they may try, but you have to be at least a little forgiving. Mass Effect Andromeda is hardly a perfect game that just had polish done for the last 6 months where there would have been no excuse to lack the content. Circumstantial at best would be it happening on a couple points. It becomes a bit less so when it's over the course of four games and every single stereotypical "appeal to the straight males while minimizing what they may find icky" is hit. That's not just some, it is EVERY bullet point. Male nudity for laughs. All sex scenes avoiding m/m content. Same sex male content non-existent in the squad. Etc. it's been gone over many times. You'd have a point if it wasn't an ongoing thing, and even if they didn't do it on purpose it's terrible. And I stress again, the cherry on top is stringing people along about Jaal and lying that you wouldn't be strung along in game, all while the files show him as bi. |
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Post by Dirk on Mar 24, 2017 0:43:34 GMT
An answer(?) from a dev:
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Post by zeowik on Mar 24, 2017 0:47:43 GMT
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Post by duskwanderer on Mar 24, 2017 1:37:08 GMT
That's what they've been saying. I find it as silly as those college rants about white women wearing hoop earrings. And there is a side, just not how you framed it. There are those who say there is a legitimate grievance, and there are those who say it is not. It is not a legitimate grievance to complain that you can't get an achievement by playing a solely gay person. If you want to get an achievement, sometimes you have to do things you wouldn't normally do. Check any Valve game. Did you complain when people who didn't like any romance option couldn't get the achievement? I doubt it. The problem isn't that the number for the achievement exists, it's that straight players do not have to play outside their sexuality to get it. Getting achievements often requires players to do things they wouldn't normally do. Particularly if an achievement is well-crafted. Remember why achievements were made in the first place. It's extra content designed to get players to do things, play games more often in different ways. Again, Valve is great with this: Take a gander at Portal 2's list sometime. You get credit for things like letting GLaDos trick you. The Stick of Truth is absolutely baller at it, making you watch a very disturbing scene for an entire minute. Papers, Please turns some into moral conundrums. I wouldn't normally do something like in real life. But I'd do it in a game to get an achievement. It's not a statement about anything. They're things you don't normally do. You do them to get achievements. You're reading way too much into an achievement and, honestly, throwing hysterics for no reason. I honestly feel like you're seeking to be offended. |
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Post by Nightscrawl on Mar 24, 2017 2:00:41 GMT
^ Straight players don't have to.
You can cite all the examples you want from other games. The point is that in THIS game, gay players are being asked to romance outside of their sexuality for an achievement, while straight players are not.
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Post by duskwanderer on Mar 24, 2017 2:05:57 GMT
^ Straight players don't have to. You can cite all the examples you want from other games. The point is that in THIS game, gay players are being asked to romance outside of their sexuality for an achievement, while straight players are not. If you want to martyr yourself, there are nobler causes. You're just seeking to be offended. Look away from your mirror, Narcissus. This game was not made to only please you. |
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Post by Frhozen on Mar 24, 2017 2:07:39 GMT
The problem isn't that the number for the achievement exists, it's that straight players do not have to play outside their sexuality to get it. Getting achievements often requires players to do things they wouldn't normally do. Particularly if an achievement is well-crafted. Remember why achievements were made in the first place. It's extra content designed to get players to do things, play games more often in different ways. Again, Valve is great with this: Take a gander at Portal 2's list sometime. You get credit for things like letting GLaDos trick you. The Stick of Truth is absolutely baller at it, making you watch a very disturbing scene for an entire minute. Papers, Please turns some into moral conundrums. I wouldn't normally do something like in real life. But I'd do it in a game to get an achievement. It's not a statement about anything. They're things you don't normally do. You do them to get achievements. You're reading way too much into an achievement and, honestly, throwing hysterics for no reason. I honestly feel like you're seeking to be offended. The achievement on its own wouldn't be that big a deal. It'd be annoying, sure, but nobody would get this outraged over just that. The problem is that there are many other issues with the M/M romances (some small some big) which all make it seem like they were half-arsed and a bit of an afterthought compared to straight and lesbian romances. All of those things have already been listed in this thread but I'll list them again just for you because that's how nice I am: - Gay Scott has the least romance options in the game.
- The M/M romances are shorter than many of the non-M/M romances.
- There are explicit, detailed sex scenes for at least one of the romances available to straight Scott, straight Sara and gay Sara respectively but all gay Scott can get is a fade-to-black (not to mention that one of those fade-to-black scenes was incredibly poorly animated compared to the same scene being played with Sara instead of Scott).
- Neither of the bi/male romance options is a squadmate and squadmates generally get more content, dialogue, opportunities for character development and interaction, etc. That, again results in less overall content for M/M romances and less overall content for gay/bi male characters in general.
Again, if it were just one of those things on their own, people wouldn't be complaining so much (I'm sure some would still be complaining but they certainly wouldn't be this outraged and angry over it) but put all of them together and you get the very clear picture that gay/bi male characters and M/M romances did not get equal treatment. EDIT: Also, there's a difference between a game being for someone and a game being just for someone. Nobody is asking them to make a game just for us. If we were, we'd be doing the equivalent of what some of those right-wing nutheads are doing and campaign for BioWare to remove all straight romances and all straight characters from the game. Nobody's asking them to do that, nobody wants them to do that. However, yes, the game should be made for us just like it was made for straight, bisexual and lesbian players, just like Mass Effect 3 and Dragon Age: Inquisition were made for all of us, including us gay/bi men, it just shouldn't be made exclusively for us. |
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Post by Ryzaki on Mar 24, 2017 2:08:12 GMT
I hate to be 'that guy', but someone needs to point out that developing the scenes would take considerable resources and time, and with an (arguably) smaller percentage of the game's population participating in in a certain romance option, it doesn't make much fiscal sense to animate it all. Hell, look at Peebee's romance... there is no difference between Male and Female Ryder. Bioware was clearly struggling for time as it was and looking for places to cut corners, and while it may upset some... let's call them 'less understanding people', they made the right choice to cut them and put effort into other areas of the game that clearly needed it and still need it. If they hadn't made the Cora and PeeBee scenes so graphic in the first place then it wouldn't be a problem. The issue is that a ton of work went into those scenes. They could have instead dialed those scenes down and spread the cinematic love around. But they didn't. They chose to target a specific audience and it is VERY clear who that audience is. Yep they could've had most of the scenes like Gil/Scott and Sara/Liam. Some heavy kissing and FTB. They're the ones who decided to get all extra with it. |
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Post by Nightscrawl on Mar 24, 2017 2:08:14 GMT
^ Straight players don't have to. You can cite all the examples you want from other games. The point is that in THIS game, gay players are being asked to romance outside of their sexuality for an achievement, while straight players are not. If you want to martyr yourself, there are nobler causes. You're just seeking to be offended. Look away from your mirror, Narcissus. This game was not made to only please you. I'm not gay, nor would I even be getting the achievement as I tend to stick with a single LI across multiple plays. But I do recognize unfairness when I see it. |
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Post by duskwanderer on Mar 24, 2017 2:12:33 GMT
If you want to martyr yourself, there are nobler causes. You're just seeking to be offended. Look away from your mirror, Narcissus. This game was not made to only please you. I'm not gay, nor would I even be getting the achievement as I tend to stick with a single LI across multiple plays. But I do recognize unfairness when I see it. Life isn't fair. Why should games? |
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Post by Nightscrawl on Mar 24, 2017 2:14:40 GMT
I'm not gay, nor would I even be getting the achievement as I tend to stick with a single LI across multiple plays. But I do recognize unfairness when I see it. Life isn't fair. Why should games? Because life isn't fair. People get in car accidents, or get cancer, and all sorts of stupid, senseless, horrible shit. So we might as well have something be fair that we (meaning people, as the developers) can control, like romance options in a frivolous video game. |
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Post by duskwanderer on Mar 24, 2017 2:16:44 GMT
Getting achievements often requires players to do things they wouldn't normally do. Particularly if an achievement is well-crafted. Remember why achievements were made in the first place. It's extra content designed to get players to do things, play games more often in different ways. Again, Valve is great with this: Take a gander at Portal 2's list sometime. You get credit for things like letting GLaDos trick you. The Stick of Truth is absolutely baller at it, making you watch a very disturbing scene for an entire minute. Papers, Please turns some into moral conundrums. I wouldn't normally do something like in real life. But I'd do it in a game to get an achievement. It's not a statement about anything. They're things you don't normally do. You do them to get achievements. You're reading way too much into an achievement and, honestly, throwing hysterics for no reason. I honestly feel like you're seeking to be offended. The achievement on its own wouldn't be that big a deal. It'd be annoying, sure, but nobody would get this outraged over just that. The problem is that there are many other issues with the M/M romances (some small some big) which all make it seem like they were half-arsed and a bit of an afterthought compared to straight and lesbian romances. All of those things have already been listed in this thread but I'll list them again just for you because that's how nice I am: - Gay Scott has the least romance options in the game.
- The M/M romances are shorter than many of the non-M/M romances.
- There are explicit, detailed sex scenes for at least one of the romances available to straight Scott, straight Sara and gay Sara respectively but all gay Scott can get is a fade-to-black (not to mention that one of those fade-to-black scenes was incredibly poorly animated compared to the same scene being played with Sara instead of Scott).
- Neither of the bi/male romance options is a squadmate and squadmates generally get more content, dialogue, opportunities for character development and interaction, etc. That, again results in less overall content for M/M romances and less overall content for gay/bi male characters in general.
Again, if it were just one of those things on their own, people wouldn't be complaining so much (I'm sure some would still be complaining but they certainly wouldn't be this outraged and angry over it) but put all of them together and you get the very clear picture that gay/bi male characters and M/M romances did not get equal treatment. EDIT: Also, there's a difference between a game being for someone and a game being just for someone. Nobody is asking them to make a game just for us. If we were, we'd be doing the equivalent of what some of those right-wing nutheads are doing and campaign for BioWare to remove all straight romances and all straight characters from the game. Nobody's asking them to do that, nobody wants them to do that. However, yes, the game should be made for us just like it was made for straight, bisexual and lesbian players, just like Mass Effect 3 and Dragon Age: Inquisition were made for all of us, including us gay/bi men, it just shouldn't be made exclusively for us. Is there some sort of inherent rule about romantic content? There MUST be equal treatment for everyone? Dragon Age Inquisition did not have an equal amount of romances: It had more for straight women, particularly elven straight women. Mass Effect 3 did NOT have equal content either, particularly for imported characters. It sounds to me like you don't have an issue with equal content. It sounds to me like you just want special prizes for gay/bi men. This is what I mean by entitlement culture. You're only upset when it's against your special group. |
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Post by duskwanderer on Mar 24, 2017 2:19:04 GMT
Life isn't fair. Why should games? Because life isn't fair. People get in car accidents, or get cancer, and all sorts of stupid, senseless, horrible shit. So we might as well have something be fair that we (meaning people, as the developers) can control, like romance options in a frivolous video game. For people who seek to be perpetually offended, as you seem to be, fair will never come. I love referencing old games, so I'll tell you another one. In King's Quest VI, you meet the rulers of an island, who are a red and white chess queen. They're fighting over a lump of coal, and to resolve their conflict, you give them another. They immediately begin to fight over that lump of coal. That is who these folk are. They will find a reason to be angry. |
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Post by bloodofthefirst on Mar 24, 2017 2:21:01 GMT
The problem isn't that the number for the achievement exists, it's that straight players do not have to play outside their sexuality to get it. Getting achievements often requires players to do things they wouldn't normally do. Particularly if an achievement is well-crafted. Remember why achievements were made in the first place. It's extra content designed to get players to do things, play games more often in different ways. Again, Valve is great with this: Take a gander at Portal 2's list sometime. You get credit for things like letting GLaDos trick you. The Stick of Truth is absolutely baller at it, making you watch a very disturbing scene for an entire minute. Papers, Please turns some into moral conundrums. I wouldn't normally do something like in real life. But I'd do it in a game to get an achievement. It's not a statement about anything. They're things you don't normally do. You do them to get achievements. You're reading way too much into an achievement and, honestly, throwing hysterics for no reason. I honestly feel like you're seeking to be offended. You know who's seeking to be offended? The people who complained about Cora being butch, complaining about Bioware making their females ugly, complaining about Scott is intentionally being made handsome and Sara as ugly because Bioware is SJW. Complaining about this game being SJW when the focus is clearly on the straight where all of their main options are squadmates, where they're the only ones with the most well animated se scene. Complaining about the absolute bare minimum for gay guys, pointing out there are no squadmates option, pointing out there is no sex scenes, pointing despite a bunch of straight confrontations between various love triangle, about how Cora notices Reyes' romance and how Gil and Reyes are the only ones without a recognition, pointing out how unlike other romances, gays are the only group they don't bother designing a unique face for, pointing out how unlike other romances, Gil doesn't have any updated lines between missions. They can keep tracks of 6-7 other characters but they can't keep track of a single gay character without updated lines between missions? There is a difference between allowing you the options and didn't like what you're giving vs. not giving a choice in the first place. |
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Post by Nightscrawl on Mar 24, 2017 2:25:43 GMT
... complaining about Scott is intentionally being made handsome and Sara as ugly because Bioware is SJW. Sorry this is sort of OT but, what is the logic for this one? (I honestly don't get it.) |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2017 2:26:55 GMT
They really should just make everyone bi so nobody has to feel left out! But really actually bi not like when it's convienent bi.  |
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Post by bloodofthefirst on Mar 24, 2017 2:31:19 GMT
... complaining about Scott is intentionally being made handsome and Sara as ugly because Bioware is SJW. Sorry this is sort of OT but, what is the logic for this one? (I honestly don't get it.) They put up comparison between the face models and the characters, on Scott, they said hot, on Sara, they said ugly. They intentionally said Bioware doesn't want to make sexy women because it would offend SJW for objectifying and male gaze, which was the same justification of Cora being butch because they intentionally want to make ugly women for SJW's sake of not objectifying women. I'm not even sure some were joking when they said that they make women to turn people gay by making the women so ugly, they have no choice but to pick a gay guy. How's that for looking for things to offend about? It's ironic when gays are being accused of looking for things to be offended when there are barely contents for them while gay guys who are clearly being catered to are now screaming SJW. |
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Post by duskwanderer on Mar 24, 2017 2:33:36 GMT
Getting achievements often requires players to do things they wouldn't normally do. Particularly if an achievement is well-crafted. Remember why achievements were made in the first place. It's extra content designed to get players to do things, play games more often in different ways. Again, Valve is great with this: Take a gander at Portal 2's list sometime. You get credit for things like letting GLaDos trick you. The Stick of Truth is absolutely baller at it, making you watch a very disturbing scene for an entire minute. Papers, Please turns some into moral conundrums. I wouldn't normally do something like in real life. But I'd do it in a game to get an achievement. It's not a statement about anything. They're things you don't normally do. You do them to get achievements. You're reading way too much into an achievement and, honestly, throwing hysterics for no reason. I honestly feel like you're seeking to be offended. You know who's seeking to be offended? The people who complained about Cora being butch, complaining about Bioware making their females ugly, complaining about Scott is intentionally being made handsome and Sara as ugly because Bioware is SJW. Complaining about this game being SJW when the focus is clearly on the straight where all of their main options are squadmates, where they're the only ones with the most well animated se scene. Complaining about the absolute bare minimum for gay guys, pointing out there are no squadmates option, pointing out there is no sex scenes, pointing despite a bunch of straight confrontations between various love triangle, about how Cora notices Reyes' romance and how Gil and Reyes are the only ones without a recognition, pointing out how unlike other romances, gays are the only group they don't bother designing a unique face for, pointing out how unlike other romances, Gil doesn't have any updated lines between missions. They can keep tracks of 6-7 other characters but they can't keep track of a single gay character without updated lines between missions? There is a difference between allowing you the options and didn't like what you're giving vs. not giving a choice in the first place. So...what I'm gathering is: A bunch of people are complaining about stupid crap, but it's wrong when straight guys do it. Because they're evil, and shallow, and probably patriarchy or something. When gay guys do it, it's legitimate. Because they're special, and wonderful, and it's the straight guys fault. That sums up your rant pretty well. |
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Post by Frhozen on Mar 24, 2017 2:38:28 GMT
Is there some sort of inherent rule about romantic content? There MUST be equal treatment for everyone? Dragon Age Inquisition did not have an equal amount of romances: It had more for straight women, particularly elven straight women. Mass Effect 3 did NOT have equal content either, particularly for imported characters. It sounds to me like you don't have an issue with equal content. It sounds to me like you just want special prizes for gay/bi men. This is what I mean by entitlement culture. You're only upset when it's against your special group. Okay, you just don't get it. It's not about the number of romances, that's one teeny-tiny piece of the puzzle. It doesn't bother me that straight/bi men and gay/bi women have got more options than everyone else, what does bother me is when, not only do gay men get the least options, those options are also of overall lower quality. That's the point, that the M/M romances were given far less care and attention than other types of romances and that the gay/bi male LIs generally aren't given the same amount of importance in the story as other types of LIs. ME3 had issues of its own regarding M/M romances, but at least it had a bi male squadmate LI who was treated just like all the other LIs and didn't feel tagged-on as a character. (I'm sure some people would argue that his M/M romance did seem tagged-on but that'd mostly be based on the fact that they cut his M/M romance from the first game... at least I think it was cut? May have also never actually been intended to be in there, though, I'm not sure.) |
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Post by Ark on Mar 24, 2017 2:43:07 GMT
You know who's seeking to be offended? The people who complained about Cora being butch, complaining about Bioware making their females ugly, complaining about Scott is intentionally being made handsome and Sara as ugly because Bioware is SJW. Complaining about this game being SJW when the focus is clearly on the straight where all of their main options are squadmates, where they're the only ones with the most well animated se scene. Complaining about the absolute bare minimum for gay guys, pointing out there are no squadmates option, pointing out there is no sex scenes, pointing despite a bunch of straight confrontations between various love triangle, about how Cora notices Reyes' romance and how Gil and Reyes are the only ones without a recognition, pointing out how unlike other romances, gays are the only group they don't bother designing a unique face for, pointing out how unlike other romances, Gil doesn't have any updated lines between missions. They can keep tracks of 6-7 other characters but they can't keep track of a single gay character without updated lines between missions? There is a difference between allowing you the options and didn't like what you're giving vs. not giving a choice in the first place So...what I'm gathering is: A bunch of people are complaining about stupid crap, but it's wrong when straight guys do it. Because they're evil, and shallow, and probably patriarchy or something. When gay guys do it, it's legitimate. Because they're special, and wonderful, and it's the straight guys fault. That sums up your rant pretty well. If you feel that sums up the quoted post, then you're certainly the one trying hard to be offended here. Good lord was that a lot of hyperbolic subtext you threw out there. |
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Post by saga on Mar 24, 2017 2:44:21 GMT
I finally got around to watching the M/M romances, and yikes.
Of course the main issue is that BW expects only one type of player to play outside of their own sexuality to get the achievement in question, which is extremely disappointing in and of itself. As a lesbian, I would be equally upset if I was expected to play as a male character and romance a straight female crewmate. That's just... Why would you ask your players to do that? And worse, why would you only ask it of gay males? Are they somehow lesser? Different from other players? Why do lesbian and straight male players have three full romances (not to mention off-ship options), and gay men get only 1? And why in the holy hell does it look like Cora's love scene took five times as many resources as Gil's entire romance? It's just bizarre. It would have been so easy to shift around resources just a tiny bit to give all players the equal numbers of potential romances.
But after watching Reyes' romance with both Scott and Sara, I'm even more struck by the difference in quality! What is that nonsense where he twirls Sara around super smoothly like a ballerina, but Scott looks like he's an action figure - completely stiff and wooden (and not in the good way). As with Peebee's scene with Sara, it's blatant that they created the scene for the heterosexual version and then hastily did a model swap of the genders without modifying the animations.
Then there's the FTB nonsense for everyone but Cora, Jaal and Peebee. Either make them all FTB, or none of them.
Bioware really should have distributed time and resources more evenly so that all players had the same quality and quantity of romances. I don't know how they could think this was the best way to do things, especially after DAI where all players had the same number and quality (more or less) of romance options.
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Post by bloodofthefirst on Mar 24, 2017 2:46:35 GMT
You know who's seeking to be offended? The people who complained about Cora being butch, complaining about Bioware making their females ugly, complaining about Scott is intentionally being made handsome and Sara as ugly because Bioware is SJW. Complaining about this game being SJW when the focus is clearly on the straight where all of their main options are squadmates, where they're the only ones with the most well animated se scene. Complaining about the absolute bare minimum for gay guys, pointing out there are no squadmates option, pointing out there is no sex scenes, pointing despite a bunch of straight confrontations between various love triangle, about how Cora notices Reyes' romance and how Gil and Reyes are the only ones without a recognition, pointing out how unlike other romances, gays are the only group they don't bother designing a unique face for, pointing out how unlike other romances, Gil doesn't have any updated lines between missions. They can keep tracks of 6-7 other characters but they can't keep track of a single gay character without updated lines between missions? There is a difference between allowing you the options and didn't like what you're giving vs. not giving a choice in the first place. So...what I'm gathering is: A bunch of people are complaining about stupid crap, but it's wrong when straight guys do it. Because they're evil, and shallow, and probably patriarchy or something. When gay guys do it, it's legitimate. Because they're special, and wonderful, and it's the straight guys fault. That sums up your rant pretty well. Lol, you got it backward, I don't give a damn about straight guys' complaining, they're free to do that if they want, and I didn't point it out, you're the ones bringing it up and tell that the gays are the ones looking for reasons to complain when on the contrary, the straight guys are doing the exact same things. I doubt you put in as much efforts into the straight guys talking about it than the gays guys talking about it. What I'm gathering is you're projecting. You know what sum up your rant pretty well? "A bunch of people are complaining about stupid crap, but it's wrong when gay guys do it" You can't be the one who telling others that they're looking for reasons to complain but at the same time saying that the straight guys didn't do it. I don't give a damn about straight guys complaining but don't pull that crap about the double standard, because you seem to tolerate it for straight guys but when gay guys do it, it means they looks for reasons to complain. lol |
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Post by duskwanderer on Mar 24, 2017 2:47:32 GMT
Is there some sort of inherent rule about romantic content? There MUST be equal treatment for everyone? Dragon Age Inquisition did not have an equal amount of romances: It had more for straight women, particularly elven straight women. Mass Effect 3 did NOT have equal content either, particularly for imported characters. It sounds to me like you don't have an issue with equal content. It sounds to me like you just want special prizes for gay/bi men. This is what I mean by entitlement culture. You're only upset when it's against your special group. Okay, you just don't get it. It's not about the number of romances, that's one teeny-tiny piece of the puzzle. It doesn't bother me that straight/bi men and gay/bi women have got more options than everyone else, what does bother me is when, not only do gay men get the least options, those options are also of overall lower quality. That's the point, that the M/M romances were given far less care and attention than other types of romances and that the gay/bi male LIs generally aren't given the same amount of importance in the story as other types of LIs. ME3 had issues of its own regarding M/M romances, but at least it had a bi male squadmate LI who was treated just like all the other LIs and didn't feel tagged-on as a character. (I'm sure some people would argue that his M/M romance did seem tagged-on but that'd mostly be based on the fact that they cut his M/M romance from the first game... at least I think it was cut? May have also never actually been intended to be in there, though, I'm not sure.) No, I understand you just fine. The problem is that I have no patience for your honestly pretty ridiculous excuses. You claim they were given less care. Why? Because they didn't hard thrusting sex scenes? I saw Cora's romance, Scott's thrusting butt sure as hell wasn't for straight guys. Because Gil didn't get as many cutscenes? Quantity is not a measure of quality: There's a reason why "Murder your darlings" is a thing in writing. Perhaps it was cut because the quality was bad. Kaidan's romance was tacked on (they recorded the lines, but never intended to put them in the game). But honestly, so were Garrus and Tali's (literally, they wrote them because they were popular in the first game) Here's my point: You're looking to be offended. That's why you're angry. |
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Post by duskwanderer on Mar 24, 2017 2:54:29 GMT
So...what I'm gathering is: A bunch of people are complaining about stupid crap, but it's wrong when straight guys do it. Because they're evil, and shallow, and probably patriarchy or something. When gay guys do it, it's legitimate. Because they're special, and wonderful, and it's the straight guys fault. That sums up your rant pretty well. Lol, you got it backward, I don't give a damn about straight guys' complaining, and I didn't point it out, you're the ones bringing it up and tell that the gays are the ones looking for reasons to complain when on the contrary, the straight guys are doing the exact same things. What I'm gathering is you're projecting. You know what sum up your rant pretty well? "A bunch of people are complaining about stupid crap, but it's wrong when gay guys do it" You can't be the one who telling others that they're looking for reasons to complain but at the same time saying that the straight guys didn't do it. I don't give a damn about straight guys complaining but don't pull that crap about the double standard, because you seem to tolerate it for straight guys but when gay guys do it, it means they looks for reasons to complain. lol You're the one who brought it up. It was right in the post you quoted. You were ranting and whining about people complaining that Cora looked butch and all of the other nonsense. I get it, I really do. It's only okay when your special group does it. I'd have to be offended for your ridiculous argument to actually work, but I'm not. I think the whole argument is hilarious. Many people went into Andromeda looking to be offended because it wasn't the original trilogy. They were going to rant about this thing and that. It's just funny that this is what they picked. Like I said, I'm endlessly amused at the ranty nonsense. And the pontificating self-gratification for somehow believing themselves of more moral fiber, all because of a lousy achievement that only really hardcore players would've achieved by now, it's only been a few days since release. But rant away. Complain that the special group isn't "treated equally." But at least be honest with everything. I'm not offended, I'm entertained. |
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Post by zeowik on Mar 24, 2017 2:56:27 GMT
... complaining about Scott is intentionally being made handsome and Sara as ugly because Bioware is SJW. Sorry this is sort of OT but, what is the logic for this one? (I honestly don't get it.) It's the delusion that the SJW boogeyman is everywhere out to get straight white Christian males, so they make up and outright believe that they would make female characters 'ugly' and unattractive on purpose and cry wolf with SJW pretty much if any minority/female character has a role of any significance. Or in this case, claiming the visual issues that plague this game somehow are just to snub straight guys which is just... ugh. I don't mean the people in this topic in particular, but the mob of anti-SJW paranoia swoops in at the drop of a hat far more often and far more obnoxiously than misguided SJWs (which do exist, ranting about silly things like so-called cultural appropriation and ableism, ignoring intent when calling humor racist, and all kinds of other nitpicky things). As this topic his gone on though the points have been laid out and promptly ignored by some of the people unsympathetic. I mean the baiting is a fact. That happened. The lying about being turned down early on is a fact. The bi flags in the files being there is a fact. The fact this is like the third time a character was originally going to be bi but they scrapped it is also a fact. I'm not sure how true it is, but the people analyzing the files were saying it looked like if the Ryders could flirt, there was nothing to lock Scott out. By contrast other characters have rejections programmed in. I don't know the details of that though so I fully admit that. That is just one factor of many that got people in a frenzy though. Devoid of everything else I'd agree it would be wrong. For example on the topic of Garrus, if he's straight he's straight. I would never have joined a social campaign to ask for him to be bi. That wouldn't be right. Jaal though? They teased and teased and teased then lied about it being able to flirt and be shut down to not be strung along when even reviewers had no idea and several assumed Jaal is bi. All of the points add up to not only highlight the unfairness, but when combined with the bi flags in the files it's not the same thing as with a character like Garrus in my opinion. For someone without any knowledge of everything that went down I could understand thinking it's totally unreasonable. I'm not sure why some are outright ignoring that to turn the people they are mocking into caricatures. The irony is the "Hi by the way I'm transgender" and the creators seeming to think bi/homosexuality has to be some core part of a character's narrative are things that annoy almost everyone on all sides of the issue. The achievement itself doesn't even personally bother me. It's the combination of everything else. It really doesn't help they keep stringing people along too. They did so for months already, and are continuing to do so. They promised it's not just PR talk, so we'll see what happens. Obviously their hands are full with far more than this topic. |
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