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Post by London on Mar 21, 2017 0:11:42 GMT
So what you're saying is, that because they catered to gays as a whole instead of just gay men BioWare isn't inclusive. No, I'm saying that it is not fair that gay men have received less content than all other groups for 4 games in a row, and the fact that they cannot get an achievement if they play as a gay male character is absurd. I'm not saying anything about gay women. Let's also not pretend that some of the lesbian content is not created to be enjoyed by straight men also.
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Post by Frhozen on Mar 21, 2017 0:12:43 GMT
I'm thinking we should maybe try to contact some gaming news websites about this? I'm sure at least one or two would be interested in writing an article (even if it's just to jump on the "Mass Effect Andromeda is shit" bandwagon but hey, why not use that to our advantage?). That's a good idea, I don't mind doing it. Does anyone have experience of doing it? I don't really know what to do..just contact them with a story idea? How? And which would be the best for it? I think we should message as many as possible to raise our chances of having it picked up. Whatever we do, we should make sure not to come across as crazed fans but explain the issue to them as matter-of-factly as possible, then maybe add a paragraph explaining why this is a big deal to us, how we feel about it, etc. (but try not to mix the facts with the feelings too much). I don't have any experience doing this, either, though, so I'm just guessing what'd be best. Also, we should probably keep track of which sites have been contacted in here and maybe also post our emails for others to read over before sending them in. As for which specific sites to contact, I'd first focus on two different groups: Group A: Sites which have given Andromeda a low rating and may want to back up their low opinion of it by giving it some more negative attention. Group B: Sites which have a track record of being progressive, inclusive, LGBT+ friendly. EDIT: It's true that there is still a tiny bit of uncertainty regarding Jaal's orientation and it would probably be a good idea to wait until we're absolutely sure about him. The problem is, if we wait too long we'll probably miss the window of opportunity where people still care and want to write about the game. If we wait too long, less people will be interested.
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Post by ToLazy4Name on Mar 21, 2017 0:14:54 GMT
How inclusive does one need to be in order to be inclusive enough?
Also what the fuck does inclusive even mean
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Mar 21, 2017 0:15:55 GMT
The thing is, Bioware needs to stop doing the bare minimum and actually do better overtime. Two m/m options as NPCs and no m/m squaddies? That's not even stagnation; that's regressing. It's a major step back, and I hope they hear our concerns regarding this matter. Many LGBT fans are really, genuinely hurt by this, and I've seen people today say they might never buy another Bioware game if they go this direction. How do you go from the pinnacle of LGBT rep in gaming to the LGBT community feeling betrayed? This is how. If they want our trust, they have to earn it. Honestly it's unfair to call it regressing on LGBT content especially when the L and the B actually get the most content.
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Post by zeowik on Mar 21, 2017 0:15:59 GMT
I understand, but I believe dataminers found 30% less romance dialogue for crewmates, and also I don't think they have missions that are as fleshed out as companion missions? And flings, while a new concept, are pretty clearly going to have less content. Also most of my points still stand, even if Gil turns out to be the best romance in the history of Bioware. If you play as a gay man you can't get an achievement, the sex scenes are muted unlike others, gay men have had the least options 4 games in a row. Well you should remember that datamining can contain incomplete and sometimes incorrect data. I agree that the fling is going to have less NPC content, but why should it necessarily have less romance content? In fact, Reyes has far more flirt dialogue than most of the Tempest NPCs. His scenes also have several romance variations. I do agree that the achievement is somewhat problematic, but why must it be attained through only one orientation? I distinctly remember that most of BioWare's previous games required you to romance everyone at least once. This is actually a more loose requirement. It seems a little nitpicky to me. Are you only going to play gay protagonists? It's a combination of things. They strung people along with false hope for months rather than just shutting it down, all while hyping Jaal outrageously while playing all "we can't say more" as they at the same time described why he's so wonderful and broke their "we aren't saying until launch" statement with several straight romance reveals. The laundry list of typical "don't scare the straight dudes" bullet points just adds to it. Focus on female nudity, only straight and lesbian sex scenes, lesbians being more permissible to be in the spotlight. I'm not saying that's intentional but it looks terrible and combined with everything else was a horrible way to treat players they strung along so long.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Mar 21, 2017 0:17:18 GMT
Let's also not pretend that some of the lesbian content is not created to be enjoyed by straight men also. Well as long as we're on the subject of not pretending, let's not pretend that straight male gamers don't constitute the vast majority of ME players. Look I'm 100% on board the "it sucks" train, but people need to consider the context here.
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Post by Dirk on Mar 21, 2017 0:18:38 GMT
That's a good idea, I don't mind doing it. Does anyone have experience of doing it? I don't really know what to do..just contact them with a story idea? How? And which would be the best for it? I think we should message as many as possible to raise our chances of having it picked up. Whatever we do, we should make sure not to come across as crazed fans but explain the issue to them as matter-of-factly as possible, then maybe add a paragraph explaining why this is a big deal to us, how we feel about it, etc. (but try not to mix the facts with the feelings too much). I don't have any experience doing this, either, though, so I'm just guessing what'd be best. Also, we should probably keep track of which sites have been contacted in here and maybe also post our emails for others to read over before sending them in. As for which specific sites to contact, I'd first focus on two different groups: Group A: Sites which have given Andromeda a low writing and may want to back up their low opinion of it by giving it some more negative attention. Group B: Sites which have a track record of being progressive, inclusive, LGBT+ friendly. EDIT: It's true that there is still a tiny bit of uncertainty regarding Jaal's orientation and it would probably be a good idea to wait until we're absolutely sure about him. The problem is, if we wait too long we'll probably miss the window of opportunity where people still care and want to write about the game. If we wait too long, less people will be interested.I'd suggest we wait until the game has come out first or the devs have confirmed. But yes, waiting too long is not good. Prey is coming soon, the press will move onto it.
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Post by zeowik on Mar 21, 2017 0:18:56 GMT
Let's also not pretend that some of the lesbian content is not created to be enjoyed by straight men also. Well as long as we're on the subject of not pretending, let's not pretend that straight male gamers don't constitute the vast majority of ME players. That is irrelevant on the topic of the points laid out in this topic because it's a laundry list of issues not a slight nitpick.
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Mar 21, 2017 0:20:58 GMT
It's a combination of things. They strung people along with false hope for months rather than just shutting it down, all while hyping Jaal outrageously while playing all "we can't say more" as they at the same time described why he's so wonderful and broke their "we aren't saying until launch" statement with several straight romance reveals. You're right about that. They know that romance content is important to many people. They should have been more forthcoming about all the options early on. I just think people are focusing too much on the quantity. There's not much evidence to say that they didn't make any effort in the m/m department. The Gil and Reyes romances look really well done based on what I've seen so far.
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Post by smellycatbutts on Mar 21, 2017 0:21:03 GMT
No, I'm saying that it is not fair that gay men have received less content than all other groups for 4 games in a row, and the fact that they cannot get an achievement if they play as a gay male character is absurd. I'm not saying anything about gay women. Let's also not pretend that some of the lesbian content is not created to be enjoyed by straight men also. I'm fairly certain it's created mainly with male gamers in mind.
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Post by flog61 on Mar 21, 2017 0:21:16 GMT
Let's also not pretend that some of the lesbian content is not created to be enjoyed by straight men also. Well as long as we're on the subject of not pretending, let's not pretend that straight male gamers don't constitute the vast majority of ME players. Look I'm 100% on board the "it sucks" train, but people need to consider the context here. Huh? Above you were agreeing that content-wise it isn't fair, and that the achievement being unable to get for gay male Ryders is really bad. Now you're basically saying it's okay because most players (wouldn't go as far as 'vast majority') are straight men?
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Post by ToLazy4Name on Mar 21, 2017 0:24:03 GMT
holy fuck I was actually contemplating whether or not someone would post something as retarded as this and wew lad you didn't disappoint You can't even understand the word "inclusive" and asked what it means. I don't care the slightest what you think is retarded. you seem very racist and uninclusive to me sir i'm gonna have to ask you to calm down
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Post by gaycaravaggio on Mar 21, 2017 0:24:24 GMT
Guys, can we avoid the personal attacks? It's going to get us nowhere.
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Post by flog61 on Mar 21, 2017 0:24:35 GMT
It's a combination of things. They strung people along with false hope for months rather than just shutting it down, all while hyping Jaal outrageously while playing all "we can't say more" as they at the same time described why he's so wonderful and broke their "we aren't saying until launch" statement with several straight romance reveals. You're right about that. They know that romance content is important to many people. They should have been more forthcoming about all the options early on. I just think people are focusing too much on the quantity. There's not much evidence to say that they didn't make any effort in the m/m department. The Gil and Reyes romances look really well done based on what I've seen so far. The thing is, it's not as if the rest got quantity and we got quality. The rest got quality AND quantity. We got 2 romances that look good, neither being squadmates unlike everyone else's options. No-one's saying they didn't make ANY effort. Just not equal effort. Otherwise they would have done things like not only have sex scenes for straight/lesbian Ryders, and would have given us at least one option on the squad, like Jaal, who has the code to be bi. I'm getting really confused over what you think people should complain about or not? Do you think any of this is valid or not?
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Post by flog61 on Mar 21, 2017 0:26:04 GMT
Guys, can we avoid the personal attacks? It's going to get us nowhere. Please. Also I suggest if the thread's content doesn't interest you/you don't think it should be discussed, you spend your time in other threads, rather than complaining about it unproductively.
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Post by l0iso on Mar 21, 2017 0:26:19 GMT
Where did you guys get info on fading to black etc ? Can somebody link me?
Also, I really hope Jaal is going to be bi because otherwise, embarrassing. Like, come on, bioware. It's 2017. Give gay men proper romance options. I wonder why do they deal with it much better in Dragon Age games. I mean, not perfect, but at least Dorian and Bull had proper romance scenes and they were kinda cool as characters. Is mass effect somehow... more straight? More male-oriented?
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Post by Lebanese Dude on Mar 21, 2017 0:26:35 GMT
Well as long as we're on the subject of not pretending, let's not pretend that straight male gamers don't constitute the vast majority of ME players. Look I'm 100% on board the "it sucks" train, but people need to consider the context here. Huh? Above you were agreeing that content-wise it isn't fair, and that the achievement being unable to get for gay male Ryders is really bad. Now you're basically saying it's okay because most players (wouldn't go as far as 'vast majority') are straight men? In theory, it's not OK. Of course I want more content. In practice, it's understandable. Now people here are being cynical about the F/F content being done for male gamers. I'm sorry but nothing is going to be good enough. People are attaching motivations to justify their own biases.
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Post by ToLazy4Name on Mar 21, 2017 0:28:00 GMT
Guys, can we avoid the personal attacks? It's going to get us nowhere. Please. Also I suggest if the thread's content doesn't interest you/you don't think it should be discussed, you spend your time in other threads, rather than complaining about it unproductively. This should definitely be discussed and it's very interesting to me :^ )
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Post by crusty on Mar 21, 2017 0:28:14 GMT
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Post by Lorn on Mar 21, 2017 0:28:56 GMT
Please don't allow trolls to come in and taunt you into responding so that the thread derails and it gets closed. It's what they do best. Ignore them and they go away. Every. Single. Time. Back on the old BSN you and I had a nice little bromance for awhile before DAI came out (which incidentally is when I ditched that board due to the inane whining). You stated that you wished that more people were as reasonable as me, nothing has changed yet now I am a "troll". So what you're saying is, that because they catered to gays as a whole instead of just gay men BioWare isn't inclusive. No, I'm saying that it is not fair that gay men have received less content than all other groups for 4 games in a row, and the fact that they cannot get an achievement if they play as a gay male character is absurd. I'm not saying anything about gay women.That was kind of the point. No, I'm saying that it is not fair that gay men have received less content than all other groups for 4 games in a row, and the fact that they cannot get an achievement if they play as a gay male character is absurd. I'm not saying anything about gay women. Let's also not pretend that some of the lesbian content is not created to be enjoyed by straight men also. Let's not forget that a straight person can enjoy gay male romances. Unless that is somehow inconceivable to you.
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Post by lurkinganon on Mar 21, 2017 0:29:10 GMT
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Post by London on Mar 21, 2017 0:31:03 GMT
Let's also not pretend that some of the lesbian content is not created to be enjoyed by straight men also. Let's not forget that a straight person can enjoy gay male romances. Unless that is somehow inconceivable to you. There is a difference between "can be enjoyed by" and "created for".
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Post by sixsmith on Mar 21, 2017 0:31:36 GMT
You're right about that. They know that romance content is important to many people. They should have been more forthcoming about all the options early on. I just think people are focusing too much on the quantity. There's not much evidence to say that they didn't make any effort in the m/m department. The Gil and Reyes romances look really well done based on what I've seen so far. The thing is, it's not as if the rest got quantity and we got quality. The rest got quality AND quantity. We got 2 romances that look good, neither being squadmates unlike everyone else's options. No-one's saying they didn't make ANY effort. Just not equal effort. Otherwise they would have done things like not only have sex scenes for straight/lesbian Ryders, and would have given us at least one option on the squad, like Jaal, who has the code to be bi.I'm getting really confused over what you think people should complain about or not? Do you think any of this is valid or not? I'm thinking the prima guide was wrong. From a reviewer:
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Post by flog61 on Mar 21, 2017 0:32:40 GMT
Huh? Above you were agreeing that content-wise it isn't fair, and that the achievement being unable to get for gay male Ryders is really bad. Now you're basically saying it's okay because most players (wouldn't go as far as 'vast majority') are straight men? In theory, it's not OK. Of course I want more content. In practice, it's understandable. Now people here are being cynical about the F/F content being done for male gamers. I'm sorry but nothing is going to be good enough. People are attaching motivations to justify their own biases. On the female romance thing, why do you think gay women have had more romance options than gay men in every mass effect game? That's quite a lot to be coincidental. I don't think they're solely written for straight men by any means, but I'm not sure what the explanation for them receiving more romance content than gay men consistently is.
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Post by flog61 on Mar 21, 2017 0:33:54 GMT
The thing is, it's not as if the rest got quantity and we got quality. The rest got quality AND quantity. We got 2 romances that look good, neither being squadmates unlike everyone else's options. No-one's saying they didn't make ANY effort. Just not equal effort. Otherwise they would have done things like not only have sex scenes for straight/lesbian Ryders, and would have given us at least one option on the squad, like Jaal, who has the code to be bi.I'm getting really confused over what you think people should complain about or not? Do you think any of this is valid or not? I'm thinking the prima guide was wrong. From a reviewer: It's not just the Prima guide, didn't IGN's list of romance options confirm it too? And several other players? Though I guess Prima has been wrong before..
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