Arcian
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Post by Arcian on Aug 24, 2016 20:32:05 GMT
Gotta be honest, didn't think Squenix had the balls to try and pull something like this after the preorder bullshit they tried to pull early on blew up in their face.
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Post by Sartoz on Aug 24, 2016 21:02:56 GMT
Apparently this is completely optional, and of course if it is, it does not present a problem as such. What I fear is that this serves as a door-opener for more intrusive designs. So yes, gamers should cry out loud about how much they don't like it. Two things though. First, thats a full on slippery slope argument and I never agreed with it. Not to mention it implies all microtransactions are intrusive...which it is not the case of course for every game out there, that depends on game design over the feature. Two, they can cry as they see fit, that's fine, but I ask what alternative strategy would you suggest then for game developers to make revenue then, because let's face it, this is so companies can keep making games. My only thought is to just finally bite the bullet and raise game prices to match current inflation, so we're talking close to $70-$80 bucks. <<<<<<<<<<(0)>>>>>>>>>> Did I read you right? You don't believe in the slippery slope argument? History is full of examples. Even children push the boundaries set by the parents.... it's basic human nature. As to alternative strategies, game companies have existed before the internet and micro$transactions..... greed, profits and investors drive this "extra content" revenue stream. |
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Post by straykat on Aug 24, 2016 21:06:39 GMT
It's a good question though.. how can companies make games at this level? They've gotten so used to the salary levels and costs, that it's less likely to change than anything.
Barring some better rapid development process (which doesn't exist...yet), I don't know what the alternative is.
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Post by helios969 on Aug 24, 2016 21:15:13 GMT
Well I was pretty lukewarm on the new DE as I'm not a fan of stealth games with those rat-in-the-maze urban layouts. Those types of microtransactions do nothing but discourage me from buying full price. And it's absolutely ridiculous not being able to carry over bonus skill purchase to subsequent playthroughs. That's beyond idiotic. Well I hope they can find enough suckers to offset those of us that'll opt out of purchasing at full price or at all. Sadly, they likely will.  |
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Post by goishen on Aug 24, 2016 21:20:08 GMT
It's the same with ME3MP packs. Don't wanna put in the time to get an N7 Fury? Buy some packs. It's one or the other. It's either play the game to get them through playing the game or buy them with real cash.
I, personally, don't see a problem with it. Doctors, scientists, engineers all over the world are sighing a sigh of relief. "Oh, that's all I have to do to play as that? $200? Pfffft. Take it."
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Post by straykat on Aug 24, 2016 21:22:33 GMT
It's the same with ME3MP packs. Don't wanna put in the time to get an N7 Fury? Buy some packs. It's one or the other. It's either play the game to get them through playing the game or buy them with real cash. I, personally, don't see a problem with it. Doctors, scientists, engineers all over the world are sighing a sigh of relief. "Oh, that's all I have to do to play as that? $200? Pfffft. Take it." I did pretty well on my human adept.. and I was embarrassed to admit that was mostly what I played back in the day. But someone recently told me the human classes aren't even bad. So I guess I did the right thing. Although I did somehow unlock a Batarian Brawler. That was cool. |
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Post by helios969 on Aug 24, 2016 21:29:16 GMT
It's the same with ME3MP packs. Don't wanna put in the time to get an N7 Fury? Buy some packs. It's one or the other. It's either play the game to get them through playing the game or buy them with real cash. I, personally, don't see a problem with it. Doctors, scientists, engineers all over the world are sighing a sigh of relief. "Oh, that's all I have to do to play as that? $200? Pfffft. Take it." Well, in moderation I don't mind either, but I think the concern is that more and more will be introduced until it's impossible to enjoy the game without more and more micro-purchases. I've recently got into TOR which at free to play is decent enough given there is some semblance of a story, but the constant "become a subscriber today" to enjoy this or that is just annoying as hell...and really has the opposite effect. And frankly no amount of microtransactions is going to change the boring ass combat into suddenly awesome fun. Nope, create a really kick ass game with a killer story and I'll throw money at you all day long...otherwise, no thank you. |
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Post by linksocarina on Aug 24, 2016 21:41:55 GMT
Two things though. First, thats a full on slippery slope argument and I never agreed with it. Not to mention it implies all microtransactions are intrusive...which it is not the case of course for every game out there, that depends on game design over the feature. Two, they can cry as they see fit, that's fine, but I ask what alternative strategy would you suggest then for game developers to make revenue then, because let's face it, this is so companies can keep making games. My only thought is to just finally bite the bullet and raise game prices to match current inflation, so we're talking close to $70-$80 bucks. <<<<<<<<<<(0)>>>>>>>>>> Did I read you right? You don't believe in the slippery slope argument? History is full of examples. Even children push the boundaries set by the parents.... it's basic human nature. As to alternative strategies, game companies have existed before the internet and micro$transactions..... greed, profits and investors drive this "extra content" revenue stream. History would disagree with that at times, especially when folks don't consider other options available to them or look at different solutions to a problem. Then again, that goes with everything in a way. |
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Post by straykat on Aug 24, 2016 21:54:24 GMT
<<<<<<<<<<(0)>>>>>>>>>> Did I read you right? You don't believe in the slippery slope argument? History is full of examples. Even children push the boundaries set by the parents.... it's basic human nature. As to alternative strategies, game companies have existed before the internet and micro$transactions..... greed, profits and investors drive this "extra content" revenue stream. History would disagree with that at times, especially when folks don't consider other options available to them or look at different solutions to a problem. Then again, that goes with everything in a way. I'm all for problem solving, but I don't know what it is. Other than cheaper/rapid development improvements.. but that's sort of pie in the sky. Either that or the industry implodes like it did once and costs get driven down this way. |
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Post by linksocarina on Aug 24, 2016 21:59:51 GMT
History would disagree with that at times, especially when folks don't consider other options available to them or look at different solutions to a problem. Then again, that goes with everything in a way. I'm all for problem solving, but I don't know what it is. Other than cheaper/rapid development improvements.. but that's sort of pie in the sky. Either that or the industry implodes like it did once and costs get driven down this way. Never going to happen, the industry has too much money backing it to implode, plus the niche indie, F2P, mobile and freemium games is filling will catch that void and continue onwards, although probably at reduced returns. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2016 22:07:41 GMT
I'm all for problem solving, but I don't know what it is. Other than cheaper/rapid development improvements.. but that's sort of pie in the sky. Either that or the industry implodes like it did once and costs get driven down this way. Never going to happen, the industry has too much money backing it to implode, plus the niche indie, F2P, mobile and freemium games is filling will catch that void and continue onwards, although probably at reduced returns. People say that about the oil industry in Alberta... but it imploded in 1980, it's imploding now; and if it recovers, it will probably implode again sometime in the future... people lose their jobs not just in the industry involved, but in lots of other industries in the area. |
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Post by linksocarina on Aug 24, 2016 22:11:07 GMT
Never going to happen, the industry has too much money backing it to implode, plus the niche indie, F2P, mobile and freemium games is filling will catch that void and continue onwards, although probably at reduced returns. People say that about the oil industry in Alberta... but it imploded in 1980, it's imploding now; and if it recovers, it will probably implode again sometime in the future... people lose their jobs not just in the industry involved, but in lots of other industries in the area. Fair point to that I guess. Although the sort of implosion we saw already in 1982 is not going to occur at the very least. Instead it will be mini bubbles bursting, which we have seen from time to time. |
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Innocent Bystander
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Post by Innocent Bystander on Aug 24, 2016 22:18:29 GMT
Optional microtransactions that aren't in any way necessary and don't negatively impact gameplay don't bother me in the slightest. Dead Space 3 is good example, you could ignore all microtransactions there. But games designed around those (hello Diablo 3's RMAH) are abominations that should be killed with fire. Oh, by the way, that was true even for any pre-order / "season pack" in-game bonuses as well, but according to some reviews on Steam they may have changed that due to consumer reaction. First, since those packs are mostly DLCs it's possible that the reason is how Steam works, not customer reaction. Second, it wouldn't be the first game that have those bonuses for one character only. Anyway, I had to laugh, considering people were arguing that those 5 Praxis kits from Deus Ex GO (not bad game, btw) would make it too easy. I'm pretty much expecting a lot of this kind of bullshit in ME:A, be it SP or MP. Looks like even AAA games are pay2win these days. Edit: Quoting fail. Oh, and I like your comparison of microtransactions to cheating, because it's true. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2016 22:19:20 GMT
It's the same with ME3MP packs. Don't wanna put in the time to get an N7 Fury? Buy some packs. It's one or the other. It's either play the game to get them through playing the game or buy them with real cash. I, personally, don't see a problem with it. Doctors, scientists, engineers all over the world are sighing a sigh of relief. "Oh, that's all I have to do to play as that? $200? Pfffft. Take it." You are comparing a MP game to a SP game. MP game traditionally sell in game currency, while SP games do not. Cheating in SP games is traditionally something you can do for free if you choose to, because there is no competitive element and therefore no harm. Also, I would argue that there is a difference in the degree of ownership a between a buyer of a SP game and a player of a MP game. Selling in game currency to the former is like re-selling a property you already sold. (it might not be accurate in legal terms due to draconian user agreements, but it is certainly the fair and acccepted status quo) Also, are you living under the illusion that doctors scientists and engineers are usually swimming in cash? I don't think that's accurate. Since you're playing in single player... you can always increase the relative strength of your character by reducing the level of difficulty in the game. If something is in short supply in a game (i.e. rare item), then it's likely that way to increase the challenging nature of the game to make encourage the player to "value" that item higher than comparatively more common ones. By giving yourself those times via a hack or mod, the single player is generally just self-defeating the "challenge" of the game.) Also, it's never "free" because seeing their work 'hacked" and used in ways not intended, frequently discourages developers artistically... and ultimately we don't get the full benefit of their creativity. I'm amazed really at how little respect developers get from "fans"... I can play a game well, but I would never be able to create what they create; and if they stop creating it, we're left with nothing. |
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Post by straykat on Aug 24, 2016 22:24:13 GMT
People say that about the oil industry in Alberta... but it imploded in 1980, it's imploding now; and if it recovers, it will probably implode again sometime in the future... people lose their jobs not just in the industry involved, but in lots of other industries in the area. Fair point to that I guess. Although the sort of implosion we saw already in 1982 is not going to occur at the very least. Instead it will be mini bubbles bursting, which we have seen from time to time. I think Square themselves is almost at the point of their own bubble bursting. And it's probably why they're resorting to these tactics. It's these kind of AAA companies that are struggling the most atm. It's like barely anyone can even afford to develop now. I remember they were pretty negative when Tomb Raider didn't meet expectations (nor did others, like Hitman.. which they thought TR would make up for). |
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Post by goishen on Aug 25, 2016 0:17:54 GMT
Well, I bought the "all the extra sauce", and haven't used it yet. I mean, good grief. All it is is a way of creating a leg up for yourself. In other words, cheating. I'd rather play the game for myself, first. Then decide (after I've gone through it about three times) to use my "leg up".
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2016 0:56:38 GMT
Since you're playing in single player... you can always increase the relative strength of your character by reducing the level of difficulty in the game. If something is in short supply in a game (i.e. rare item), then it's likely that way to increase the challenging nature of the game to make encourage the player to "value" that item higher than comparatively more common ones. By giving yourself those times via a hack or mod, the single player is generally just self-defeating the "challenge" of the game.) Also, it's never "free" because seeing their work 'hacked" and used in ways not intended, frequently discourages developers artistically... and ultimately we don't get the full benefit of their creativity. I'm amazed really at how little respect developers get from "fans"... I can play a game well, but I would never be able to create what they create; and if they stop creating it, we're left with nothing. I don't need advice on how to make a game easier for myself, I have been playing video games for years, I know how choosing difficulty usually works. As for hacking or cheating, I fail to see how any of this is a problem. To say that this somehow "disrespects the developers" is blowing this out of proportions to say the least. (besides, your argument is irrelevant since the game itself "allows" you to ruin the "artistic vision" by buying skill points) If I want to "ruin" the challenge of the game for myself, or play it in a way that the developer hadn't meant, that's my business. Video games shouldn't be different than any other product in this regard. Let's say I dislike how a particular mechanic or resource is handled in the game, and my enjoyment of the game is lessened because of it. By hacking the game and changing it to my liking, I allow myself to fully enjoy a product that I paid a full price for. No one is harmed because of it (hell, most of the time no one even knows of it), and to claim otherwise is simply absurd. The fact that I can't create a video game does not mean that I don't know what I like or dislike. Should I be full of reverence towards the makers of any product that I don't know how to make?... Is this a serious argument? If this level of "disrespect" is going to cause someone to stop developing video games, they should either grow a thicker skin, or just live their entire life in solitude inside a bomb shelter. (and they might as well stop making video games now) 1) i was not giving you advice... just stating a fact. 2) This is about the rant I expected to get from you. To say that something "disrespects" someone else is actually pretty mild. Your tone disrespects me... is that a huge problem? I'm not indicating that it is. 3) I just bought an expensive painting by a famous artist, but I don't like how they drew the nose... doesn't that mean I would be disrespecting their "artistry" if I decided to take a paint brush to it and make my own adjustments... after all I'm only affecting the value of something I now own completely and the artist (who is now dead) won't ever know about it, right? I say, yes, it would be showing disrespect and I say hacking a game for one's own selfish convenience is also showing disrespect for the creator of that game. (And I know for a fact that many of these gaming programmers put their hearts and souls into what they are making and they are only human after all. 4) If you want to make your own game and think it's so easy... write one. |
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Post by straykat on Aug 25, 2016 3:56:03 GMT
I don't need advice on how to make a game easier for myself, I have been playing video games for years, I know how choosing difficulty usually works. As for hacking or cheating, I fail to see how any of this is a problem. To say that this somehow "disrespects the developers" is blowing this out of proportions to say the least. (besides, your argument is irrelevant since the game itself "allows" you to ruin the "artistic vision" by buying skill points) If I want to "ruin" the challenge of the game for myself, or play it in a way that the developer hadn't meant, that's my business. Video games shouldn't be different than any other product in this regard. Let's say I dislike how a particular mechanic or resource is handled in the game, and my enjoyment of the game is lessened because of it. By hacking the game and changing it to my liking, I allow myself to fully enjoy a product that I paid a full price for. No one is harmed because of it (hell, most of the time no one even knows of it), and to claim otherwise is simply absurd. The fact that I can't create a video game does not mean that I don't know what I like or dislike. Should I be full of reverence towards the makers of any product that I don't know how to make?... Is this a serious argument? If this level of "disrespect" is going to cause someone to stop developing video games, they should either grow a thicker skin, or just live their entire life in solitude inside a bomb shelter. (and they might as well stop making video games now) 1) i was not giving you advice... just stating a fact. 2) This is about the rant I expected to get from you. To say that something "disrespects" someone else is actually pretty mild. Your tone disrespects me... is that a huge problem? I'm not indicating that it is. 3) I just bought an expensive painting by a famous artist, but I don't like how they drew the nose... doesn't that mean I would be disrespecting their "artistry" if I decided to take a paint brush to it and make my own adjustments... after all I'm only affecting the value of something I now own completely and the artist (who is now dead) won't ever know about it, right? I say, yes, it would be showing disrespect and I say hacking a game for one's own selfish convenience is also showing disrespect for the creator of that game. (And I know for a fact that many of these gaming programmers put their hearts and souls into what they are making and they are only human after all. 4) If you want to make your own game and think it's so easy... write one. Do you only play consoles or something? Mods have been around for decades. Not all are about cheating either. Sometimes it's just adding things. Or even restoring content (this art you hold in high regard). I understand wanting a challenge though. I think it's a good idea to play defaults at first at least. It's good to get a feel for intended baseline. But if someone is playing over and over, they don't have to prove anything to themselves or developers or you. Hell, they might even make it more difficult, which is what the bulk of many mods are. Not the opposite. Computer users in general are tinkerers, as a well as consumers. It's kind of the same way with some car owners. Rigging and modifying things is often to first way to learn an artform, which might lead to their own creations later. Hell, some big developers started this way. Both app development and games. People like Wozniak or Todd Howard. You gonna get on their case too? |
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Post by Cyonan on Aug 25, 2016 4:21:30 GMT
It wasn't really different for ME3 either. Much of the day 1 extra content that EA tried to charge for was already on the disc, which meant that unlocking it was a simple case of changing a few flags in the save editor. That's how I got all the pre-order guns for free, as well as the Chakram Launcher without actually playing the KoA demo.
As much as ideally we wouldn't see this kind of practice, I will at least give Mankind Divided that from my gameplay thus far on "Give me Deus Ex" difficulty I've felt more than fine with the baseline game(I don't even have pre-order bonuses). It certainly doesn't feel like things were gimped with the intention of "encouraging" the player to buy extras.
Which is what I mostly care about. As long as the baseline experience isn't ruined by them trying to shove microtransactions down my throat, I'm not as inclined to care about people stupidly throwing away their money. Same goes for hacks/cheats, I'm not inclined to give a damn what somebody else does with their SP game. I use save game editors in Mass Effect 2 so that I can bypass the planet scanning and max out my paragon/renegade meters because I get more enjoyment out of the game by doing those things.
And last time I played Skyrim I was running something like 60 mods with it. Bethesda has fully embraced players customizing the game to their liking, which in my books is a good thing.
If somebody else does something optional that ruins their SP experience, that's entirely on them.
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Post by felipejiraya on Aug 25, 2016 5:15:23 GMT
If it's disclosed clearly (which wasn't in the Deus Ex case) what these microtransaction DLCs does and doesn't do I really don't mind it.
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Post by guanxi on Aug 25, 2016 9:12:31 GMT
This is why as much as you may hate it having a strong vibrant multiplayer revenue stream or season pass pipeline is important because those that don't will be cornered into a position of either forcing microtransactions in singleplayer, scaling back the scope of the game and or hiking prices to the detriment of quality and accessibility.
For a relatively modest outlay it keeps the music going year round, keeps retail prices down, it confines the money grubbing to a separate stable and keeps investors investing in game development in the face of rising costs & declining traditional revenues relative to inflation.
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August 2016
theelderking
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by The Elder King on Aug 25, 2016 10:04:22 GMT
I don't think Bioware will follow the same direction. They have MP where they can put microtransactions, and ME3 MP worked fine in balancing it. I didn't have to pay to have fun with it (I wasn't expecting to have fun either with the MP, but that's another thing).
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The Elder King
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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The Elder King
6,370
August 2016
theelderking
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
19631
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Post by The Elder King on Aug 25, 2016 10:17:55 GMT
This is why as much as you may hate it having a strong vibrant multiplayer revenue stream or season pass pipeline is important because those that don't will be cornered into a position of either forcing microtransactions in singleplayer, scaling back the scope of the game and or hiking prices to the detriment of quality and accessibility. For a relatively modest outlay it keeps the music going year round, keeps retail prices down, it confines the money grubbing to a separate stable and keeps investors investing in game development in the face of rising costs & declining traditional revenues relative to inflation. I don't think Bioware will follow the same direction. They have MP where they can put microtransactions, and ME3 MP worked fine in balancing it. I didn't have to pay to have fun with it (I wasn't expecting to have fun either with the MP, but that's another thing). Guys, Deus Ex:MD has MP, season pass, AND SP micro-aggressions err... micro transactions... Oh yeah, I forgot about that. I hope EA follows the route they took with ME3 and DAI. And Square's policies avojt those things are bad in general ridicolous, as it is for FF XV. edit: though I was just talking about EA's recent approach with Bioware games, not that every game with MP and SP doesn't have microtransactions in SP) |
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Sartoz
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sartoz
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.hVm-5wNStlyTEXjhwDoa_wHaEK%26pid%3DApi&f=1&ipt=8f745a5f30b08f8231ddb64664df7375d23cc10878aa50d66fec54e9d570c7e2&ipo=images
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Sartoz on Aug 25, 2016 12:53:37 GMT
Snip By giving yourself those times via a hack or mod, the single player is generally just self-defeating the "challenge" of the game.) Also, it's never "free" because seeing their work 'hacked" and used in ways not intended, frequently discourages developers artistically... and ultimately we don't get the full benefit of their creativity. I'm amazed really at how little respect developers get from "fans"... I can play a game well, but I would never be able to create what they create; and if they stop creating it, we're left with nothing. <<<<<<<<<<(0)>>>>>>>>>> How one plays the SP campaign is only known to the player. Thus, hacking or modding the game allows gamers to enjoy playing it the way they want to. Concluding that hacking a SP game discourages developers artistically is quite puzzling. How can your hacked "boost" vs a paid "boost" hurt the artist? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2016 14:03:54 GMT
1) i was not giving you advice... just stating a fact. 2) This is about the rant I expected to get from you. To say that something "disrespects" someone else is actually pretty mild. Your tone disrespects me... is that a huge problem? I'm not indicating that it is. 3) I just bought an expensive painting by a famous artist, but I don't like how they drew the nose... doesn't that mean I would be disrespecting their "artistry" if I decided to take a paint brush to it and make my own adjustments... after all I'm only affecting the value of something I now own completely and the artist (who is now dead) won't ever know about it, right? I say, yes, it would be showing disrespect and I say hacking a game for one's own selfish convenience is also showing disrespect for the creator of that game. (And I know for a fact that many of these gaming programmers put their hearts and souls into what they are making and they are only human after all. 4) If you want to make your own game and think it's so easy... write one. Do you only play consoles or something? Mods have been around for decades. Not all are about cheating either. Sometimes it's just adding things. Or even restoring content (this art you hold in high regard). I understand wanting a challenge though. I think it's a good idea to play defaults at first at least. It's good to get a feel for intended baseline. But if someone is playing over and over, they don't have to prove anything to themselves or developers or you. Hell, they might even make it more difficult, which is what the bulk of many mods are. Not the opposite. Computer users in general are tinkerers, as a well as consumers. It's kind of the same way with some car owners. Rigging and modifying things is often to first way to learn an artform, which might lead to their own creations later. Hell, some big developers started this way. Both app development and games. People like Wozniak or Todd Howard. You gonna get on their case too? I'm sorry you all take such exception to such a gentle statement as "I believe that hacking a game shows disrespect to the developer of that game and that is one reason why I (repeat I) don't support modding and hacking of games. I clearly stated in my first post that I also don't support microtransactions (and it's not like I'm threatening anyone). Choosing to accept the "challenges" of a game as the developer originally envisions them is as much my right as a single player as not respecting those challenges is apparently for other single players. Hacking REALLY becomes a problem in multiplayer where no one questions that it shows disrespect to the other players... why is it such a "leap" to suggest that modding a game just because you want additional items shows disrespect to the developer who set up the rarity of those items as part of the "challenge" they envisioned in the game? If one believes that multiplayers who hack for additional items are just being greedy... why then would they believe that a single player who does the same thing isn't also just being greedy? The solution to microtransactions is simple - Just don't buy into them (if there is no market for them, game developers will stop trying to make money off them) and, rather than encourage, other players to resort to free mods (which still creates a disparity in multiplayer and causes other people to consider paying for such things just to keep up; i.e. it keeps up a "market" for them), encourage players of all types to just learn to play the game well in its original form... as the developer's testers almost certainly did before they released the game. While I have been frequently "annoyed" by cerrtain game aspects in many different games, I have also found that, as I learn how to play the game better (without mods), those annoyances are just naturally substantially reduced and, sometimes, those initial annoyces (e.g. like using powers in ME) have eventually become some of my favorite aspects of those games. |
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