Not curing the Genophage: The reason you're a heartless monster.

I like Wreav. I prefer him over Wrex

Javik is not the only one who mentions that, I believe.  On that issue, I would counter that we have many ancient images from here on earth that show such scenes that represent human "nations" that are long gone.  In addition, a similar image could be drawn from any conventional religious service.  Worship does not necessarily equate to slavery.

Uta is the leader of a different clan. Not the same clan Wrex is in charge of.  My statement was leader holds complete power over his own clan. And the arrangement with the Female Clan leader Uta is for benefit to his own clan. Though Wrex does take it a step forward and sets up a system that benefits other clans as well. At least as long as they follow the rules. Other wise they get kicked out and possibly wiped out by Urdnot or on of their ally clans.

Yes Krogan can remove a clan leader by killing them. But only if they are strong enough to kill them.

All the talk of Wrex's power structure reminds me of another salient point here: Wrex only rules as long as the genophage exists.

Think about it. Urdnot's rise to power was facilitated on making deals with and gaining exclusive control of access to fertile females. As of ME2, no one could challenge Wrex due to sheer attrition; the more fertile females a clan has, the more little krogan it can pop out to fight for it, and fertile females were a limited resource.

Once the genophage is gone, that's no longer the case. Wreav 2.0 or Werylock 2.0 can just have their females popping out kids round the clock (by force, if necessary), and after a couple years they can go and kick Wrex/Urdnot's arse. Now, Wrex could counter this.....by adopting the exact same method of out of control reproduction. Even if he had no intention of rapid and destructive expansionism, it's going to be forced upon him (and every other species dependent on L-amino based worlds) if he wishes to survive as leader of the krogan, and does it really matter if the horde of battletoads who take your planet and eat your population say they're sorry before they do it?

Some will counter "but Wrex is like krogan Jesus!" Yeah, remember what happened to that guy, and how a mere 2000 years later, at best only 2 out of 7 humans on earth today still give a shit about anything he did (and even most of those aren't willing to miss a football game to visit a Jesus related building on any given Sunday)? The idea that there is some kind of universal "messiah" figure that the entirety of the krogan species down to the last individual are going to fall in line behind until the end of time is fucking ludicrous logic (especially given how individualistic, ambitious and aggressive they are). Even as Wrex & Co. are on the way to implement the cure, there are rivals trying to murder him (but oh, I'm sure all the others will get randomly eaten by thresher maws, amirite)? At the very least, he's going to die of old age in the unlikely scenario he isn't killed.

The idiotic "1000 kids per year per female" natural reproductive rate is simply an insurmountable problem. Honestly, Wrex should have been pushing Shepard to sabotage the Genophage even harder than the Dalatrass. His position is based entirely upon exploiting it, and really I thought that was the direction his character was going judging by ME2. Instead, Wrex develops backwards into the same shortsighted mindset he had when confronted with Saren's cure in ME1.

Now, I still cure it with either Wrex or Wreav because I hate pretty much all the same groups the krogan do (sans rachni, who can probably take care of themselves), and want to see them suffer, but the delusion that somehow things will be okay with Wrex (aside from the timely intervention of green beam induced borg assimilation or Reaper space Stalin) is just stupid logic.

What personal insult? You wanted to equate humanity to a cartoon. To a race that's like the equivalent of Mountain Dew. EXTREEEEEME.

That's the Krogan for you. There's nothing worthy to draw on from here or be academic about. They're created by a bunch of neckbeards at Bioware, who are only being trollish at best. They went too far with it. If anything, I insult them. It's not the kind of world building that I can sympathize with and humanize. I can do this with many elements in Mass Effect, but they pushed it here. Which is why it surprises me how much sympathy it does get.


If anything, they remind me more of impersonal forces in nature, rather than any race. Like when you watch scientific documentaries and see the destructive power of gamma ray bursts and supernovas. The Krogan remind me more of this, except in flesh and blood form. Like Galactus in the Marvel comics. Nearly indestructible, planet eating mofos. It's easy to forget if you anthropomorphize and buddy up with individuals.. but that's not the Krogan in general. Especially at their peak.

... and how is calling someone a "self-hater" not a personal insult?  I'm not the one getting emotional over the type of population the Krogan people have been represented to be... just pointing out the fact that they have been represented in the game to possibly be two different ways.  That among the races presented in the ME universe, the Krogran are the ones presented with similar diversity of opinions to their portrayal of humanity.  The other races are presented in a much more one denominational way.  Yet, it is the Krogan that players tend to want to portray in a single, stereotypical way. 

That is, there is this continual, absolute assertion that all krogan are so violent that not a single one can be trusted or reasoned with.  Players also frequent absolutely assert that, without any doubts at all, if the krogan numbers are allowed to recover, the entire galaxy is doomed because the Krogan will wipe them.  However, the game clearly portrays several krogan than can be trusted and reasoned with and there is absolutely nothing that shows that, even if Wrex is deposed from power that only unreasonably violent krogan would be available to replace him.  In Eve, they portray a consideration for the planet environment recovering and an understanding that unlimited expansion is not necessarily a good thing (when she chastises Wrex for mentioning taking on new colonies).  In that moment Wrex also indicates that his intention is not to take colonies by force ( by saying "I'm not saying we wouldn't ask first...")  Although Wrex is described as a "mutant" - he's a natural mutant of the species... so there are probably others in the population who do think like he does.  The future "evolution" of the krogan is not portrayed as a certainty... and, therefore, I don't think, that such certain predictions about the krogan should stand here as the only valid consideration when talking about curing or not curing the genophage.

I've always cured it, but i really want to go back and do everything needed to save Mordin. I'm tired of crying every time he dies.

Funny thing is Wrex made truces with other clans to shelter all their fertile Females in protected environment so particularly the smaller ones were not destroyed by larger clans. With many clan leaders clearly agreeing to this set up willingly without any threat of force. There was no exclusive control of access to anything. There was a set of rules everyone had to follow and if you didn't follow it you were kicked out and all allied clans would enforce offending clan to be kicked out.

You ignore the fact that Wreav 2.0 or Weryloc 2.0 trying to breed a massive army, Wrex and his allies could do the same. And due to the Krogan Civil War happening the actual Krogan population would remain relatively stable if not actually drop due to the constant warring of the factions. But here is the thing Krogan Females even from ME 2 though Eve certainly shows far more of it don't want to simply be breeding machines for make Krogan. Meaning those females will try and fight. If not killing themselves then defecting to a clan that doesn't treat females as brood sows.  Which is were Wrex's side gains the advantage.

On top of that Wrex deal with inclusiveness while Wreav and Weryloc were exclusiveness.  Basically Wrex welcomed all Clans and was more then willing to let them maintain all their own personal traditions and identity. Wreav and Weryloc only gave a care about their own clan. Weryloc was only going to give their clan the cure and kill anyone who wasn't a part of it. Wreav seems to want to make Urdnot the dominate clan by forcing everyone to follow it at gun point.  So when the battle lines are being drawn one side says you have to abandon all your history and serve me. While the other side is asking you to join them and together we can help preserve your history and culture. Wrex would have a lot more clans being willing to take that deal then to abandon their traditions to serve another.

And that isn't' even taking into account the galactic community at large which would be firmly behind Wrex over any of the 2.0 groups. Which could vary in help from troops, to air strikes to simply orbital and aerial recon. STG alone could assist with the females attempting to defect from the 2.0 clans. Moving them across the planet to the Wrex allied clans. 

But Wrex isn't being Krogan Jesus. He is simply pushing the idea that they can be more then simply brutish killing machines. They can regain the glory of old and rise above what they have developed into in the wake of the Krogan Rebellion.  I think the key difference is that Jesus guy and the book he is in tells you that you are inherently a terrible person who can only be saved by worshiping an invisible man in the sky.  Wrex says that the Krogan race is inherently better then what it has turned into and if everyone works together we can achieve that improvement.  Kind of a social movement planting the idea that the Krogan can be better then they are.  Compared to religious texts that say you can't be any better unless you follow X rules and worship and praise your insignificant life to the invisible guy in the sky.

I'm certain the galaxy wouldn't say no to more forces to fight the Reapers; these are the same groups of people that side with the Leviathans should Shepard recruit them after all. Besides, who's going to care that the Yahg might become a problem down the line if the Reapers win and kill everyone? 

Yes the uplifting of the Krogan did cause massive damage to the galaxy at large, but I didn't see anyone fighting against that fact when the Rachni were clawing at their doorsteps, same thing I imagine would happen with the Reaper invasion. 

EDIT:

The Salarians were also "resurrecting" dinosaurs for the Krogan to ride into battle (I would have loved to see that BTW), reintroducing an extinct species back into the modern galaxy specifically to fight in a war, but you don't see anyone complaining about that either. 

Their actions in uplift are amoral, but considering the circumstances I would hardly call them foolish. 

It's not foolish if you consider the alternative to losing the war. At that point, no one knew what the Crucible was, let alone if it would even work, the only thing that everyone knew was that we needed more bodies to fight/stall the Reaper offensive, at least until a better plan could be enacted. Future repercussions can be considered once the very fate of every advanced civilization is not at stake.

The Salarians don't uplift other species for kicks either; for all the 'mad scientist' trope that gets thrown at them during the course of the (biased) Genophage Arc they are actually very pragmatic in their approach to the situation. The galaxy needs foot soldiers to fight, and the Yahg would make a perfect addition to the combined forces; strong, extremely intelligent, and by placing their species in the crosshairs of the Reapers their co-operation can be assured. Is it amoral? Extremely. Will there likely be issues with them down the line? More than likely. But if their addition to the fighting tips the war in the galaxy's favor it's all worth it in the end.

And if by 'uppity' you mean the Krogan attacks on an allied galaxy during the Rebellions, then that would be squarely on the Krogan. They've been a part of the council for a thousand years at that point, turning around and accusing the uplift of their species at that time is blaming the actions of a fully grown man on his parents. Also, the Krogan were only 'neutered', as you put it, after they had refused any form of diplomacy & appeasement for close to a millennia, and then causing untold devastation on the galaxy with no signs of stopping. If the Yagh choose to follow a similar tactic then the galaxy is well within it's right to defend itself. 

Of course the examples given in-game ended badly, but for all of the finger wagging of folks like Paragon Shepard, they forget the fact that they actually still exist, which is a heck of lot better than being Rachni chow. Hindsight is always 20/20, but the fact of the matter is that the Salarians uplifted the Krogan when there was no alternative, and as far as everyone knew at the time of the Reaper invasion, the galaxy is in a similar situation.

And it's not ironic, because that is not why the Krogan rebelled. If they were really so cheesed off about being labeled expendable by the rest of the galaxy then why would they be sending wave after wave of poorly equip Krogan foot soldiers to fight in the rebellions then? They rebelled because they were an aggressive, warlike people that refused to see reason or diplomacy. Hopefully, the Yahg will prove to be more intelligent than that.

But again, all of this is a moot point if the Reapers win. Would the galaxy prefer to deal with the potential fallout of an uplifted Yahg, or all be rendered into Reaper smoothie? Those are the only choices available as far as everyone knew.