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Post by shechinah on Apr 7, 2017 17:20:23 GMT
At the core of roleplaying lies the ability to determine the personality of your character. If that's missing, everything else is irrelevant. I observe that "determine the personality of my character" is missing from your list. Interestingly, there was a, well, several threads on the old forums where the topic of what constitutes an RPG came up from time to time. People had differing definitions: some felt roleplaying was a core element while others felt skill distribution and similar mechanics were a core element. It, eh, got a bit heated from what I recall observing.
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Post by kaind on Apr 7, 2017 17:21:32 GMT
I've always thought of video game rpg's as a way of immersing yourself in the world while having a bit of input in terms of how your character will respond or act in a certain situation. But TOTAL control would be difficult to pull off in terms of programming and coding. What the OP seems to be looking for is a complete create your own story type of thing. Maybe the SIMS? Or possibly a Telltale title would be more to the OP's liking? What OP is lacking is DISTINCT input and control options instead of 50 shades of sarcastic diplomat. Obviously the game cannot account for every imaginable action but still.
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Post by Ieldra on Apr 7, 2017 17:24:11 GMT
At the core of roleplaying lies the ability to determine the personality of your character. If that's missing, everything else is irrelevant. I observe that "determine the personality of my character" is missing from your list. Interestingly, there was a, well, several threads on the old forums where the topic of what constitutes an RPG came up from time to time. People had differing definitions: some felt roleplaying was a core element while others felt skill distribution and similar mechanics were a core element. It, eh, got a bit heated from what I recall observing. Optimally, like in an P&P rpg, skill development and personality expression go hand in hand. However, in the end, your skills - what you can do - is less defining for a character than your personality - what you *will* do with those skills, and why. Thus, I consider both aspects important, but one is less so than the other. MEA actually illustrates this: you can switch skill templates, but noticeably remain the same character. However, if the autodialogue in the intro were different, you'd be a different one.
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Post by FeralEwok on Apr 7, 2017 17:31:08 GMT
Well the OP is named rpgmaster...so who am I to disagree? They'd have to be an authority on it with a name like that, right?
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Post by rpgmaster on Apr 7, 2017 17:33:05 GMT
So what you're saying is... It's a Bioware RPG? Nice catch, there. You must real eye for detail. Never play BG, JE, KOTOR?
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Post by suikoden on Apr 7, 2017 17:34:02 GMT
You just have to understand that Ryder is not your own character anymore than Geralt of Rivia is. Just because you can change the face doesn't mean anything. Geralt can at least make meaningful choices and respond in a variety of ways - not just in 50 shades of paragon.
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Post by rpgmaster on Apr 7, 2017 17:35:16 GMT
Hmm I can create my own character, i can select dialogue option through most of the game, I can level up my character the way I want and pick specific skills, I can collect, craft, mod and equip the weapons, gear, and armor that I want, I can customize the colors of outfits and vehicles, I can tackle missions the way I want at pretty much any order that I want besides a few main story quests, and I can develop relationships that affects the ending the way I want. ......seems pretty RPG to me. What you seem to be complaining about is not having a Telltale Games Mass Effect.. There's a lot more to being an RPG than dialogue. I would argue that it is more to do with actual leveling and customizing gameplay mechanics. You also have to realize that if you did nothing but dialogue tree like a Bethesda game, you lose a lot of the cinematic sequences Might as well call FIFA 17 an RPG.
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Post by kaind on Apr 7, 2017 17:35:59 GMT
So what you're saying is... It's a Bioware RPG? Nice catch, there. You must real eye for detail. Never play BG, JE, KOTOR? All unvoiced protagonists. Something to keep in mind. Whenever the protagonost becomes voiced that severely cripples the roleplaying aspect of the game.
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Post by rpgmaster on Apr 7, 2017 17:38:23 GMT
Half the autodialogue I had reflected my tendency to be snarky. It checks your most common used tone and selects that. So the other half of the autodialogue didn't? I picked logical and professional options and then my character became a Joss Whedon character on the planet with Liam. *shudder*
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Post by disi on Apr 7, 2017 17:39:32 GMT
You just have to understand that Ryder is not your own character anymore than Geralt of Rivia is. Just because you can change the face doesn't mean anything. True, I also noticed that. But I liked Shepard (somewhere between Renegade and Paragon), so I dislike to play as Scott. Since this is a Mass Effect game, I expected some sort of option to tell people off but there is none. Can you dig for gas instead of water so we have something to trade with the Nexus colonists? "Yes" or "Maybe" We should do this, we should do that. "We do what she/he said." or "Let's do it this way." We want our parents and children brought out of Cryo! Riot!!! Down with the Nexus! "Sorry, we have to blalba." or "I'll talk to my superiors." We found the bug. "Kill it!" or "Catch it!" (most offensive quote of Scott Ryder) It's just not a game for me, I like playing the not so nice guy in adventures.
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Post by rpgmaster on Apr 7, 2017 17:41:38 GMT
Never play BG, JE, KOTOR? All unvoiced protagonists. Something to keep in mind. Whenever the protagonost becomes voiced that severely cripples the roleplaying aspect of the game. A good thing about ME1 is outside player controlled conversations Shepard was unvoiced. Not saying ME1 was perfect before you all shoot me in the crotch. But it was a good compromise between RPing and voiced protag. ME:A ---- far, far below that standard. 10 years later, not improved, massively declined.
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Post by rpgmaster on Apr 7, 2017 17:46:53 GMT
A game being an RPG doesn't mean it's always going to be a "role playing" game in a literal sense. This is especially true with JRPGs. You play as defined characters with defined story arcs, and a gameplay system (leveling, stats, hit points, skills, etc.) that is considered to be largely mandatory for the genre. While there's less freedom in ME:A compared to the previous games in terms of making decisions that are in true with the more literal definition of an RPG, these games aren't intended to be true role playing games in that sense. There's a reason why the term "JRPG" was created to distinguish it from RPGs (and it wasn't because of the nationalities!).
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Post by rpgmaster on Apr 7, 2017 17:48:05 GMT
Must be a you problem. I've had no problem RPing 3 distinctive Ryders thus far. Are there times immersion is broken when your character says or does something contrary to what you have in mind? Yep. Is it anymore than every other voice acted RPing game every made? Nope. It is definitely more than ME1!
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Post by projectpatdc on Apr 7, 2017 17:50:29 GMT
Hmm I can create my own character, i can select dialogue option through most of the game, I can level up my character the way I want and pick specific skills, I can collect, craft, mod and equip the weapons, gear, and armor that I want, I can customize the colors of outfits and vehicles, I can tackle missions the way I want at pretty much any order that I want besides a few main story quests, and I can develop relationships that affects the ending the way I want. ......seems pretty RPG to me. What you seem to be complaining about is not having a Telltale Games Mass Effect.. There's a lot more to being an RPG than dialogue. I would argue that it is more to do with actual leveling and customizing gameplay mechanics. You also have to realize that if you did nothing but dialogue tree like a Bethesda game, you lose a lot of the cinematic sequences At the core of roleplaying lies the ability to determine the personality of your character. If that's missing, everything else is irrelevant. I observe that "determine the personality of my character" is missing from your list. The most common way to express personality is dialogue, and in order to have choices you need a variety of dialogue. The more varied, the more possibilities to roleplay. The less meaningful variation, and the more autodialogue that expresses character traits, the more limited your roleplaying. As an example for noticeable effects of roleplaying, consider DA2. It wasn't always consistent in that, and the choices didn't always make sense, but it made roleplaying choices meaningful. Meanwhile, MEA has a number of choices in many dialogue nodes, but they are most often not really varied. RPGs can have zero dialogue options and still be an RPG. Destiny and Diablo are RPGs. Saying mass Effect Andromeda is not an RPG Ian just looney. There are so many ways to role play in game without dialogue. I feel you consider the paragon/renegade system to be Role Playing then that's like saying the Infamous games are roleplaying and in a sense, they are. There are different variations
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2017 17:51:15 GMT
I honestly saw BW games as fanfiction. You take a character with a semi-written story and shape it as you go.
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Post by kaind on Apr 7, 2017 17:51:37 GMT
All unvoiced protagonists. Something to keep in mind. Whenever the protagonost becomes voiced that severely cripples the roleplaying aspect of the game. A good thing about ME1 is outside player controlled conversations Shepard was unvoiced. Not saying ME1 was perfect before you all shoot me in the crotch. But it was a good compromise between RPing and voiced protag. ME:A ---- far, far below that standard. 10 years later, not improved, massively declined. I still felt like Shepard wasn't my character in ME1. My favorite was DA:O.
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Post by kaind on Apr 7, 2017 17:53:12 GMT
I honestly saw BW games as fanfiction. You take a character with a semi-written story and shape it as you go. Not shape, more like observe.
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Post by projectpatdc on Apr 7, 2017 17:54:27 GMT
Hmm I can create my own character, i can select dialogue option through most of the game, I can level up my character the way I want and pick specific skills, I can collect, craft, mod and equip the weapons, gear, and armor that I want, I can customize the colors of outfits and vehicles, I can tackle missions the way I want at pretty much any order that I want besides a few main story quests, and I can develop relationships that affects the ending the way I want. ......seems pretty RPG to me. What you seem to be complaining about is not having a Telltale Games Mass Effect.. There's a lot more to being an RPG than dialogue. I would argue that it is more to do with actual leveling and customizing gameplay mechanics. You also have to realize that if you did nothing but dialogue tree like a Bethesda game, you lose a lot of the cinematic sequences Might as well call FIFA 17 an RPG. MLB the show basically is. So is the Division, so is Destiny, so is Diablo. There are different variations of RPG. And you can't deviate too far from the core story/character because we would end up with the cluster fuck that was Mass Effect 3 And too be fair I agree the dialogue is limited in MEA but I would still consider it an RPG
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2017 17:54:44 GMT
I honestly saw BW games as fanfiction. You take a character with a semi-written story and shape it as you go. Not shape, more like observe. I managed to shape a few of my characters into something they weren't at the start. It just takes time.
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Post by kaind on Apr 7, 2017 17:57:23 GMT
Not shape, more like observe. I managed to shape a few of my characters into something they weren't at the start. It just takes time. Like?
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Post by rpgmaster on Apr 7, 2017 17:57:43 GMT
Most computer RPGs haven't really been RPGs... I agree. The older Final Fantasy/SquareSoft games for example, were considered among the best rpg's of the time, but you were still pretty much pigeonholed into a certain character/story. I've always thought of video game rpg's as a way of immersing yourself in the world while having a bit of input in terms of how your character will respond or act in a certain situation. But TOTAL control would be difficult to pull off in terms of programming and coding. What the OP seems to be looking for is a complete create your own story type of thing. Maybe the SIMS? Or possibly a Telltale title would be more to the OP's liking? Creating your own story would be impractical. But an RPG should have a good range of response based on logical assumptions that the a)world b)characters c)scenario creates. In ME:A's case you are a person who has been asleep for 600 years and traveled light years away from home. This is the scenario your character finds itself in. Your character's reasons and feelings to this scenario should be the driving force behind your character for at least the first part of the game (before you can develop your character). One logical reaction to this scenario is that your character has been forced by his/her parent to go on this trip and is deeply resentful of this. This is not an option in the game. If you are trying to RP this character it is completely torpedod the moment Ryder meets Liam and is all chummy and friendly jokey with him. Maybe your character went on this mission because he/she is a serious scientific explorer. Another character personality torpedoed with the endless jokey auto-dialogue with Liam.
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Post by Estaq99 on Apr 7, 2017 18:03:56 GMT
Hmm I can create my own character, i can select dialogue option through most of the game, I can level up my character the way I want and pick specific skills, I can collect, craft, mod and equip the weapons, gear, and armor that I want, I can customize the colors of outfits and vehicles, I can tackle missions the way I want at pretty much any order that I want besides a few main story quests, and I can develop relationships that affects the ending the way I want. ......seems pretty RPG to me. What you seem to be complaining about is not having a Telltale Games Mass Effect.. There's a lot more to being an RPG than dialogue. I would argue that it is more to do with actual leveling and customizing gameplay mechanics. You also have to realize that if you did nothing but dialogue tree like a Bethesda game, you lose a lot of the cinematic sequences At the core of roleplaying lies the ability to determine the personality of your character. If that's missing, everything else is irrelevant. I observe that "determine the personality of my character" is missing from your list. The most common way to express personality is dialogue, and in order to have choices you need a variety of dialogue. The more varied, the more possibilities to roleplay. The less meaningful variation, and the more autodialogue that expresses character traits, the more limited your roleplaying. As an example for noticeable effects of roleplaying, consider DA2. It wasn't always consistent in that, and the choices didn't always make sense, but it made roleplaying choices meaningful. Meanwhile, MEA has a number of choices in many dialogue nodes, but they are most often not really varied. Agree. Before your post, above, I was thinking of DA2 as a good example of a more consistent character roleplaying. People can say what they want about the shortcomings of DA2 due to the ridiculously short time for development but my Hawke was always consistent with the personality I chose for him/her. The aggressive one was really a bitch and the snarky was hilarious. The Ryder's constant bad written joking is cringeworthy and no matter what dialog option you choose, you always end up with a variation of I'm such a good lad/gal".
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2017 18:04:40 GMT
I managed to shape a few of my characters into something they weren't at the start. It just takes time. Like? Hawke for example. I see people lean all the way one way with Hakwe, but I managed to make her start off gentle and optimistic, but after losing her mother, she becomes more aggressive and less sympathetic to mages like when she first moved to Kirkwall and starts making choices she normally wouldn't. By the end of the game she is just done with everything. That sweet optimistic woman saying "let's see what happens in a year" changed quite a bit.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2017 18:05:21 GMT
Bye, Felicia.
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Post by kaind on Apr 7, 2017 18:06:23 GMT
Hawke for example. I see people lean all the way one way with Hakwe, but I managed to make her start off gentle and optimistic, but after losing her mother, she becomes more aggressive and less sympathetic to mages like when she first moved to Kirkwall and starts making choices she normally wouldn't. By the end of the game she is just done with everything. That sweet optimistic woman saying "let's see what happens in a year" changed quite a bit. Thought we were talking andromeda.
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