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Post by Zemgus on Apr 7, 2017 18:10:02 GMT
I agree with you OP.
Dialogue "options" feel like a joke, to be honest. You're given two options to say the same thing slightly differently (instead of actually different dialogue options). There's so much autodialogue. It's so jarring to even try to play the game at times because Ryder keeps saying out of character stuff and that immediately disconnects me from the character (and there for the story and the game itself). Apparently to Bioware 'morally grey' means 'four shades of paragon.'
Ryder's personality and opinions are totally pre-defined. There's nothing you can do about it. If anything this game has made me appreciate Shepard in a new light. I was just thinking about how in ME1 you can play as someone to who humanity was the #1 priority and who didn't trust aliens. You could tell Tali to stop poking around the ship and refuse to share information on the Geth. MEA in comparison is all 'handshakes, cheesy jokes and smiles.' Boring, bland - just like Ryder. I skip dialogue now just to avoid hearing more cringeworthy autodialogue.
I know it sounds harsh but... roleplay is what I used to play these games for. And I think MEA is Bioware's worst game when it comes to dialogue, roleplay and choices. Player freedom. Even Shepard and the original trilogy did amazing in comparison. So it's a big disappointment to me... affects my enjoyment of the game more than anything. I don't really care about funny animations or whatever. Believe me when I say I didn't expect to be disappointed like this. Not by a Bioware game, but here we are!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2017 18:10:02 GMT
Hawke for example. I see people lean all the way one way with Hakwe, but I managed to make her start off gentle and optimistic, but after losing her mother, she becomes more aggressive and less sympathetic to mages like when she first moved to Kirkwall and starts making choices she normally wouldn't. By the end of the game she is just done with everything. That sweet optimistic woman saying "let's see what happens in a year" changed quite a bit. Thought we were talking andromeda. BW games in general is what you quoted me on. As for Andromeda you bet! My Sara started off craving adventure and thinking it was wrong how she got the roll of Pathfinder. She questioned herself for most of Eos and Aya. After the Kett facility she was beyond upset and she started to make harder choices without second guessing and in the end lead everyone to victory, while never forgetting her loved ones who helped get her there and passing on her wisdom to the new Pathfinders.
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Post by fraggle on Apr 7, 2017 18:14:05 GMT
Hawke for example. I see people lean all the way one way with Hakwe, but I managed to make her start off gentle and optimistic, but after losing her mother, she becomes more aggressive and less sympathetic to mages like when she first moved to Kirkwall and starts making choices she normally wouldn't. By the end of the game she is just done with everything. That sweet optimistic woman saying "let's see what happens in a year" changed quite a bit. That's because there were several distinctive tone choices in DA2 that helped shape the autodialoge based on the personality. These are not present in MEA. DA2 is probably the best system BW has used for a voiced character, yet they completely botched it with MEA.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2017 18:16:46 GMT
Hawke for example. I see people lean all the way one way with Hakwe, but I managed to make her start off gentle and optimistic, but after losing her mother, she becomes more aggressive and less sympathetic to mages like when she first moved to Kirkwall and starts making choices she normally wouldn't. By the end of the game she is just done with everything. That sweet optimistic woman saying "let's see what happens in a year" changed quite a bit. That's because there were several distinctive tone choices in DA2 that helped shape the autodialoge based on the personality. These are not present in MEA. DA2 is probably the best system BW has used for a voiced character, yet they completely botched it with MEA. Odd. I had no trouble giving my Sara the personality I wanted.
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Post by vonuber on Apr 7, 2017 18:19:02 GMT
I for one am disgusted that Bioware have not written a game that allows us to input whatever dialogue we want in every situation and have the game voice it then adapt to it.
Poor show Bioware, poor show.
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Post by Ashii6 on Apr 7, 2017 18:20:27 GMT
OP, I really hope you are just joking. Are people really forgeting atrocious autodialogues from ME3? Really? Practically every convo with our squaddies post missions were just autodialogues. There is no such bullshit in Andromeda and thank God for that. Autodialogues a'la ME3 completely ruined a big part of the game for me. It wasn't my Shepard anymore. It was BioWare's. I'm surprised they just didn't cut out dialogue "tree" completely. RPG element in Andromeda is hella better than crap from ME3.
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Post by Ieldra on Apr 7, 2017 18:25:16 GMT
At the core of roleplaying lies the ability to determine the personality of your character. If that's missing, everything else is irrelevant. I observe that "determine the personality of my character" is missing from your list. The most common way to express personality is dialogue, and in order to have choices you need a variety of dialogue. The more varied, the more possibilities to roleplay. The less meaningful variation, and the more autodialogue that expresses character traits, the more limited your roleplaying. As an example for noticeable effects of roleplaying, consider DA2. It wasn't always consistent in that, and the choices didn't always make sense, but it made roleplaying choices meaningful. Meanwhile, MEA has a number of choices in many dialogue nodes, but they are most often not really varied. RPGs can have zero dialogue options and still be an RPG. Destiny and Diablo are RPGs. Saying mass Effect Andromeda is not an RPG Ian just looney. There are so many ways to role play in game without dialogue. I feel you consider the paragon/renegade system to be Role Playing then that's like saying the Infamous games are roleplaying and in a sense, they are. There are different variations The problem is that that which came to be described as roleplaying, back when the genre emerged, actually wasn't, but was more of a tactical conflict simulation. You may recall, perhaps, that the name of the company that published D&D first, TSR, originally meant "Tactical Studies Rules". Roleplaying, as by the term, has much more in common with acting than with tactical simulations, which was soon recognized in the P&P rpg community, leading to different ways of playing the games, depending on the GM. However, the actual roleplaying dimension of the genre was always diffuse, as informal interaction is hard to capture in rules. So, as games like D&D were implemented in video games, and computers were good at rules but bad with the diffuse, the emergence of video rpgs reinforced the tactical simulation aspect and the roleplaying aspect was forgotten for a long time, until it re-emerged with Fallout in 1996. So we have the conflict to this day: should the the genre of video-rpgs as it emerged, be more defined by the tactical simulations aspect, or more by the acting-out-a-character aspect. People, of course, have different preferences, but since I'm something of a semantics purist, I think a genre that is called "roleplaying game" should be defined more by what the term actually suggests, namely acting-out-a-character. If I want a tactical simulation, I'd prefer to buy a game that isn't called something else. Note, btw, that I have sunk more than 1000 hours into the XCOM games, which are an example of the latter, so it isn't a case of me liking one but not the other. Of course MEA has a third element thrown in - it's also real-time 3rd-person shooter, a genre which I actually dislike a great deal in its pure expression. So the more MEA loses in its roleplaying aspects, the less is left of what I might like.
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Post by Sondergaard on Apr 7, 2017 18:29:18 GMT
In the first hour alone the auto-dialog completely torpedoed my attempts to RP about a dozen times. The (endless) auto-dialog between Ryder and Liam even creates a completely different character I was trying to play from the rather limited options I had from dialogue choices. If you are trying to play Ryder as anything but a joker, you're ****ed. So many forced attempts as humour my character wouldn't say! Being buddy buddy with a guy he doesn't know even though I want him to be detached and annoy ed at his situation.
Apart from the "we're explorers" stuff, there hasn't been any way for you to indicate why you came on this trip in the first place. Surely this is the most important RP question to ask in the opening of the game? Were we forced by daddy? Did we genuinely want to come? ME has never been perfect at RP obviously. Although IIRC there in ME1 there is only ONE use of auto-dialog from Shepard (a neutral line in the descent to Ilos), so hand-waving character contradictions was a lot easier. But ME:A takes it to a new low. Want to be able to choose your dialogue go play a table top RPG like Dungeons and Dragons or a text based online RPG. Or ME1, ME2 and most of ME3. No, they're not 'true' rpgs but they give you quite a bit of leeway as to whether the saviour of the the galaxy is a hero, a tool or something in between. I sometimes wonder if ME:A's most vocal defenders have ever played the trilogy or maybe my memory is seriously faulty.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2017 18:32:35 GMT
Hawke for example. I see people lean all the way one way with Hakwe, but I managed to make her start off gentle and optimistic, but after losing her mother, she becomes more aggressive and less sympathetic to mages like when she first moved to Kirkwall and starts making choices she normally wouldn't. By the end of the game she is just done with everything. That sweet optimistic woman saying "let's see what happens in a year" changed quite a bit. That's because there were several distinctive tone choices in DA2 that helped shape the autodialoge based on the personality. These are not present in MEA. DA2 is probably the best system BW has used for a voiced character, yet they completely botched it with MEA. From my perspective, DA2's was the worst. The only thing I could select in DA2 was tone. Motivation and intent was frequently overridden by what Hawke actually said. There are (valid) complaints about Ryder having 4 ways to be a paragon, but Hawke's choice of resolution was welded to mood/personality/tonal behavior. You couldn't, for example, say no in a diplomatic fashion or yes assertively. For my part, Hawke was distinctively (some version of) Hawke, and has always felt like an NPC to me.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2017 18:33:10 GMT
Want to be able to choose your dialogue go play a table top RPG like Dungeons and Dragons or a text based online RPG. Or ME1, ME2 and most of ME3. No, they're not 'true' rpgs but they give you quite a bit of leeway as to whether the saviour of the the galaxy is a hero, a tool or something in between. I sometimes wonder if ME:A's most vocal defenders have ever played the trilogy or maybe my memory is seriously faulty. I played all 3 DA games, all 3 ME games, TES games and TW games, and MEA can be just as fun RP-wise if people do it right.
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Post by smilesja on Apr 7, 2017 18:33:37 GMT
Want to be able to choose your dialogue go play a table top RPG like Dungeons and Dragons or a text based online RPG. Or ME1, ME2 and most of ME3. No, they're not 'true' rpgs but they give you quite a bit of leeway as to whether the saviour of the the galaxy is a hero, a tool or something in between. I sometimes wonder if ME:A's most vocal defenders have ever played the trilogy or maybe my memory is seriously faulty. Oh they have they just got different views of the MET
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Post by SofNascimento on Apr 7, 2017 18:34:38 GMT
The problem is not even the auto-dialogue, it's that when you can pick a line, they add to pretty much the same thing. Very boring.
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Post by Sondergaard on Apr 7, 2017 18:37:21 GMT
I for one am disgusted that Bioware have not written a game that allows us to input whatever dialogue we want in every situation and have the game voice it then adapt to it. Poor show Bioware, poor show. Don't be a prat.
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Post by rpgmaster on Apr 7, 2017 18:38:45 GMT
OP, I really hope you are just joking. Are people really forgeting atrocious autodialogues from ME3? Really? Practically every convo with our squaddies post missions were just autodialogues. There is no such bullshit in Andromeda and thank God for that. Autodialogues a'la ME3 completely ruined a big part of the game for me. It wasn't my Shepard anymore. It was BioWare's. I'm surprised they just didn't cut out dialogue "tree" completely. RPG element in Andromeda is hella better than crap from ME3. No, I'm not. Two wrongs don't make a right. The auto-dialogue in ME3 was terrible. The auto-dialogue in ME:A is also terrible.
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Post by Sondergaard on Apr 7, 2017 18:42:31 GMT
Or ME1, ME2 and most of ME3. No, they're not 'true' rpgs but they give you quite a bit of leeway as to whether the saviour of the the galaxy is a hero, a tool or something in between. I sometimes wonder if ME:A's most vocal defenders have ever played the trilogy or maybe my memory is seriously faulty. Oh they have they just got different views of the MET It's not a view it's a fact. You had far more choice in the trilogy over how Shepard reacted. Didn't change the story due to the nature of the medium but at least I could be a dick to those who deserved it and some who didn't. In Andromeda you can't. Very odd decision on BW's part.
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Post by rpgmaster on Apr 7, 2017 18:43:04 GMT
I for one am disgusted that Bioware have not written a game that allows us to input whatever dialogue we want in every situation and have the game voice it then adapt to it. Poor show Bioware, poor show. Nobody is asking for that. You have an intolerable habit of taking any criticism of ME:A and changing it to a completely unrealistic degree to try and diminish the point being made.
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Post by projectpatdc on Apr 7, 2017 18:45:05 GMT
And it certainly beats Final fantasy 15 in terms of choice which is also an RPG
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Post by rpgmaster on Apr 7, 2017 18:48:49 GMT
And it certainly beats Final fantasy 15 in terms of choice which is also an RPG FFXV is not a barometer any game should aspire to be tested against. It is also a JRPG, not an RPG. Yes, the 'J' does matter.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2017 18:52:14 GMT
I honestly saw BW games as fanfiction. You take a character with a semi-written story and shape it as you go. I prefer the term co-creation, but yes, similar idea.
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Post by colfoley on Apr 7, 2017 18:54:10 GMT
I keep on going back to this well...because it's such low handging fruit...but if Witcher 3 be considered an RPG (and by some the best RPG ever) then Andromeda definitely is one. Imo while Witcher raised the bar in so many ways it lowered the bar in terms RPGness to the point where the genre almost has no meaning.
Not that Andromeda isn't a great RPG in its own right. It's certainly the best Mass Effect RPG ever and it rivals Inquisition in pure control of your character. The few instances of 'auto dialogue' do not change that.
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Post by setokaiba on Apr 7, 2017 18:57:45 GMT
I thinks it's better than ME 1-3. All this game is missing is a "fuck off" option
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Post by mrtijger on Apr 7, 2017 18:58:40 GMT
Its an Action RPG, not a pure RPG and it never pretended to be one from ME 1 onwards. If that doesnt fit your defintion of an RPG, well, then this game isnt for you. Its really that simple.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 7, 2017 19:00:18 GMT
At the core of roleplaying lies the ability to determine the personality of your character. If that's missing, everything else is irrelevant. I observe that "determine the personality of my character" is missing from your list. RPGs can have zero dialogue options and still be an RPG. Destiny and Diablo are RPGs. Saying mass Effect Andromeda is not an RPG Ian just looney. There are so many ways to role play in game without dialogue. I feel you consider the paragon/renegade system to be Role Playing then that's like saying the Infamous games are roleplaying and in a sense, they are. There are different variations What arguments like this prove is the worthlessness of "RPG" as a category.
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Post by KLGChaos on Apr 7, 2017 19:01:14 GMT
It's not anything new really. Even Shep really only had two default personalities. Saint or a-hole. The characters is most Bioeare games these days aren't blank slates... They have traits that belong to the character.
It's one of the shortcomings of voiced protagonists. Options are always more limited.
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Post by projectpatdc on Apr 7, 2017 19:06:09 GMT
And it certainly beats Final fantasy 15 in terms of choice which is also an RPG FFXV is not a barometer any game should aspire to be tested against. It is also a JRPG, not an RPG. Yes, the 'J' does matter. Pretty sure "j" just stands for Japanese so what's your point? FFXV's quality is each person's opinion. It has the same amount of choice as any of the other final fantasy single player games if not more because it's not entirely linear
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