thisisme8
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Post by thisisme8 on Apr 7, 2017 19:08:07 GMT
I actually just posted a video about this here:
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Post by Iakus on Apr 7, 2017 19:08:46 GMT
So we have the conflict to this day: should the the genre of video-rpgs as it emerged, be more defined by the tactical simulations aspect, or more by the acting-out-a-character aspect. People, of course, have different preferences, but since I'm something of a semantics purist, I think a genre that is called "roleplaying game" should be defined more by what the term actually suggests, namely acting-out-a-character. If I want a tactical simulation, I'd prefer to buy a game that isn't called something else. Note, btw, that I have sunk more than 1000 hours into the XCOM games, which are an example of the latter, so it isn't a case of me liking one but not the other. Indeed. I play XCom as well, and while I can name my soldiers, dress them up, select their abilities, and even choose their voices for combat barks, I'm not going to mistake it for an RPG.
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Post by projectpatdc on Apr 7, 2017 19:10:47 GMT
RPGs can have zero dialogue options and still be an RPG. Destiny and Diablo are RPGs. Saying mass Effect Andromeda is not an RPG Ian just looney. There are so many ways to role play in game without dialogue. I feel you consider the paragon/renegade system to be Role Playing then that's like saying the Infamous games are roleplaying and in a sense, they are. There are different variations What arguments like this prove is the worthlessness of "RPG" as a category. RPG is a very vague, wide genre of games. It just means role playing. For me personally, I consider a game an RPG if there is a detailed leveling system with choices and skill trees. It adds more and more RPGs elements with character creator, dialogue trees, mission choices and freedom to not follow a concrete path. The end goal should always be the same as it is for Ryder. You are a pathfinder finding homes for people and defeating the Kett. There's not much difference to how you play Geralt's story except you can't change Geralt's face.
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Post by rpgmaster on Apr 7, 2017 19:11:51 GMT
I keep on going back to this well...because it's such low handging fruit...but if Witcher 3 be considered an RPG (and by some the best RPG ever) then Andromeda definitely is one. Imo while Witcher raised the bar in so many ways it lowered the bar in terms RPGness to the point where the genre almost has no meaning. Not that Andromeda isn't a great RPG in its own right. It's certainly the best Mass Effect RPG ever and it rivals Inquisition in pure control of your character. The few instances of 'auto dialogue' do not change that. In The Witcher games you are playing as a preexisting character already defined by books. It is like being handed a character sheet with the character filled in and it is the player's job to RP as this premade character. The player has a good idea how Geralt would act and generally the games give you choices that stay within the framework of the preexisting character. ME:A however wants you to believe that this Ryder is yours and gives you options to define your character but then has auto-dialogue that CONTRADICTS and UNDERMINES the character the you are trying to develop. As for "few instances of auto dialogue". Please. There's more auto-dialogue between Ryder and Liam on the first planet alone than there probably is in ME1 and 2 combined.
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Post by projectpatdc on Apr 7, 2017 19:17:11 GMT
I keep on going back to this well...because it's such low handging fruit...but if Witcher 3 be considered an RPG (and by some the best RPG ever) then Andromeda definitely is one. Imo while Witcher raised the bar in so many ways it lowered the bar in terms RPGness to the point where the genre almost has no meaning. Not that Andromeda isn't a great RPG in its own right. It's certainly the best Mass Effect RPG ever and it rivals Inquisition in pure control of your character. The few instances of 'auto dialogue' do not change that. I will say one improvement that I think would go with the OP's arguement is they should have actually dived more into the factions they kind of set up in Mass Effect Andromeda. In Skyrim or Fallout 4, you start out the same but can very clearly deviate from the path and join a certain faction. I will say Mass Effect Andromeda could have improved by allowing the player to side with the exiles or strictly the collective or Krogan colony and achieved some deviation of the same ended goal for the game. You could have defeated the Archon and Established a world for humanity and still have been a ruthless rogue pathfinder who joined a group of murderous exiles
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Post by Iakus on Apr 7, 2017 19:18:45 GMT
RPGs can have zero dialogue options and still be an RPG. Destiny and Diablo are RPGs. Saying mass Effect Andromeda is not an RPG Ian just looney. There are so many ways to role play in game without dialogue. I feel you consider the paragon/renegade system to be Role Playing then that's like saying the Infamous games are roleplaying and in a sense, they are. There are different variations What arguments like this prove is the worthlessness of "RPG" as a category. I find that argument is often used as an excuse to justify stripping out RPG elements.
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Post by joglee on Apr 7, 2017 19:18:47 GMT
If you are looking for a Create Your Own Character type of game then yes Andromeda, or any ME game for the matter, is going to disappoint you. That isn't the kind of game BW makes. Not anymore anyhow. The narrative was set in ME1-3 as well. You played Shepherd, you could how to say things but ultimately you played who they wanted.
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Post by projectpatdc on Apr 7, 2017 19:19:12 GMT
And to the OP, again, I see your point and with you in a lot of ways. I'm just making an arguement on why RPG is so vague now and what I think defines the base mechanics to be considered in that category
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Post by fygee on Apr 7, 2017 19:20:50 GMT
A game being an RPG doesn't mean it's always going to be a "role playing" game in a literal sense. This is especially true with JRPGs. You play as defined characters with defined story arcs, and a gameplay system (leveling, stats, hit points, skills, etc.) that is considered to be largely mandatory for the genre. While there's less freedom in ME:A compared to the previous games in terms of making decisions that are in true with the more literal definition of an RPG, these games aren't intended to be true role playing games in that sense. There's a reason why the term "JRPG" was created to distinguish it from RPGs (and it wasn't because of the nationalities!). Plenty of western RPGs did the same, notably the Ultima series from which JRPGs were initially inspired from.
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Post by smilesja on Apr 7, 2017 19:21:56 GMT
Oh they have they just got different views of the MET It's not a view it's a fact. You had far more choice in the trilogy over how Shepard reacted. Didn't change the story due to the nature of the medium but at least I could be a dick to those who deserved it and some who didn't. In Andromeda you can't. Very odd decision on BW's part. Fact? I had no problem roleplaying Ryder at all.
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Post by jastall on Apr 7, 2017 19:23:46 GMT
Hawke for example. I see people lean all the way one way with Hakwe, but I managed to make her start off gentle and optimistic, but after losing her mother, she becomes more aggressive and less sympathetic to mages like when she first moved to Kirkwall and starts making choices she normally wouldn't. By the end of the game she is just done with everything. That sweet optimistic woman saying "let's see what happens in a year" changed quite a bit. That's because there were several distinctive tone choices in DA2 that helped shape the autodialoge based on the personality. These are not present in MEA. DA2 is probably the best system BW has used for a voiced character, yet they completely botched it with MEA. The system is there in Andromeda. Some autodialog and tone-agnostic choices change to fit your dominant personality.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2017 19:25:06 GMT
I keep on going back to this well...because it's such low handging fruit...but if Witcher 3 be considered an RPG (and by some the best RPG ever) then Andromeda definitely is one. Imo while Witcher raised the bar in so many ways it lowered the bar in terms RPGness to the point where the genre almost has no meaning. Not that Andromeda isn't a great RPG in its own right. It's certainly the best Mass Effect RPG ever and it rivals Inquisition in pure control of your character. The few instances of 'auto dialogue' do not change that. I find that ME1 was the best RPG of the bunch thus far. Due mostly to the steady stream of autodialogue, I'd put MEA behind it.
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Post by rpgmaster on Apr 7, 2017 19:26:58 GMT
FFXV is not a barometer any game should aspire to be tested against. It is also a JRPG, not an RPG. Yes, the 'J' does matter. Pretty sure "j" just stands for Japanese so what's your point? If you really believe that ask yourself this: why are there no J-platformers, J-sports, J-action, J-puzzle? Why was there a fundamental need to distinguish between RPGs and JRPGs?
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Post by suikoden on Apr 7, 2017 19:36:14 GMT
I keep on going back to this well...because it's such low handging fruit...but if Witcher 3 be considered an RPG (and by some the best RPG ever) then Andromeda definitely is one. Imo while Witcher raised the bar in so many ways it lowered the bar in terms RPGness to the point where the genre almost has no meaning. Not that Andromeda isn't a great RPG in its own right. It's certainly the best Mass Effect RPG ever and it rivals Inquisition in pure control of your character. The few instances of 'auto dialogue' do not change that. At least try and be subjective, because to maaaannnnyyy other people, it is in no way "the best Mass Effect RPG ever" - and the only game it rivals is Sonic Chronicles, imo. At least you threw in an imo for your opinion on the Witcher (and I consider it laughable that you think it lowered the bar - people will look and point to TW3 is one of the best RPGs of all time, while people will point to Andromeda and Inquisition is the further dilution of what made Bioware great).
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Post by myalzalean on Apr 7, 2017 19:39:34 GMT
It is my experience that the Habitat 7 auto dialogue is more the exception in the game than the rule.
Once we build our team it switches over more to banter between the squadmates than what we experience in the prologue.
I see that as the starting point for my character. Now I have to mold him from the snarky 20 something recon specialist into The Pathfinder.
While it's true that the personality choices are limiting to an extent I don't look at role playing under the microscope of dialogue.
The game still gives me a lot of opportunities to react to situations and make narrative choices to further define Ryder's character.
To me role-playing is about more than just picking choices on a dialogue wheel. It's watching the character develop over the course of the game or trilogy.
I agree the auto dialogue can be immersion breaking but personally I still get enough control over the characters reaction and choices to classify this as an action role playing game.
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Post by mmoblitz on Apr 7, 2017 19:40:00 GMT
That's because there were several distinctive tone choices in DA2 that helped shape the autodialoge based on the personality. These are not present in MEA. DA2 is probably the best system BW has used for a voiced character, yet they completely botched it with MEA. The system is there in Andromeda. Some autodialog and tone-agnostic choices change to fit your dominant personality. Yes and for everyone that personality is paragon. Just different shades of it.
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Post by Estaq99 on Apr 7, 2017 19:42:14 GMT
That's because there were several distinctive tone choices in DA2 that helped shape the autodialoge based on the personality. These are not present in MEA. DA2 is probably the best system BW has used for a voiced character, yet they completely botched it with MEA. From my perspective, DA2's was the worst. The only thing I could select in DA2 was tone. Motivation and intent was frequently overridden by what Hawke actually said. There are (valid) complaints about Ryder having 4 ways to be a paragon, but Hawke's choice of resolution was welded to mood/personality/tonal behavior. You couldn't, for example, say no in a diplomatic fashion or yes assertively. For my part, Hawke was distinctively (some version of) Hawke, and has always felt like an NPC to me. Nonsense. One Hawke could be an understanding and very patient brother to his bratty sibling or leave him behind to die by the Taint without a second thought, a caring and tender lover or a cold heart bastard who could sell his/her companion to the slaver for a few gold coins. Someone who is a defender of mages all the way to the end or could started as a pro-mage who gradually moved to a pro-circle or even a pro-templar zealot. Is Ryder who gave me the constant feeling that I was playing as a NPC in someone else's game.
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Post by smilesja on Apr 7, 2017 19:43:32 GMT
I keep on going back to this well...because it's such low handging fruit...but if Witcher 3 be considered an RPG (and by some the best RPG ever) then Andromeda definitely is one. Imo while Witcher raised the bar in so many ways it lowered the bar in terms RPGness to the point where the genre almost has no meaning. Not that Andromeda isn't a great RPG in its own right. It's certainly the best Mass Effect RPG ever and it rivals Inquisition in pure control of your character. The few instances of 'auto dialogue' do not change that. At least try and be subjective, because to maaaannnnyyy other people, it is in no way "the best Mass Effect RPG ever" - and the only game it rivals is Sonic Chronicles, imo. At least you threw in an imo for your opinion on the Witcher (and I consider it laughable that you think it lowered the bar - people will look and point to TW3 is one of the best RPGs of all time, while people will point to Andromeda and Inquisition is the further dilution of what made Bioware great). He said that The Witcher 3 raised the bar in many ways while it lowered in some aspects.
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Post by suikoden on Apr 7, 2017 19:48:40 GMT
At least try and be subjective, because to maaaannnnyyy other people, it is in no way "the best Mass Effect RPG ever" - and the only game it rivals is Sonic Chronicles, imo. At least you threw in an imo for your opinion on the Witcher (and I consider it laughable that you think it lowered the bar - people will look and point to TW3 is one of the best RPGs of all time, while people will point to Andromeda and Inquisition is the further dilution of what made Bioware great). He said that The Witcher 3 raised the bar in many ways while it lowered in some aspects. Except it didn't lower it, in any aspect. I can't believe anyone could say that with a straight face. But it's how many people post. 1) They'll acknowledge Andromeda's flaws, but then attack previous entries or other games in an attempt to make Andromeda look better than it is. 2) The'll acknowledge how other games did something better, but then add an aside that snidely puts those games down in an attempt to make Andromeda look better. 3) It's pathetic.
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Post by smilesja on Apr 7, 2017 19:51:13 GMT
He said that The Witcher 3 raised the bar in many ways while it lowered in some aspects. Except it didn't lower it, in any aspect. I can't believe anyone could say that with a straight face. But it's how many people post. 1) They'll acknowledge Andromeda's flaws, but then attack previous entries or other games in an attempt to make Andromeda look better than it is. 2) The'll acknowledge how other games did something better, but then add an aside that snidely puts those games down in an attempt to make Andromeda look better. 3) It's pathetic. Ignoring the fact that is not what people are doing at all. I think colfoley could expand on what he means by that.
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Post by setokaiba on Apr 7, 2017 19:56:23 GMT
I keep on going back to this well...because it's such low handging fruit...but if Witcher 3 be considered an RPG (and by some the best RPG ever) then Andromeda definitely is one. Imo while Witcher raised the bar in so many ways it lowered the bar in terms RPGness to the point where the genre almost has no meaning. Not that Andromeda isn't a great RPG in its own right. It's certainly the best Mass Effect RPG ever and it rivals Inquisition in pure control of your character. The few instances of 'auto dialogue' do not change that. I will say one improvement that I think would go with the OP's arguement is they should have actually dived more into the factions they kind of set up in Mass Effect Andromeda. In Skyrim or Fallout 4, you start out the same but can very clearly deviate from the path and join a certain faction. I will say Mass Effect Andromeda could have improved by allowing the player to side with the exiles or strictly the collective or Krogan colony and achieved some deviation of the same ended goal for the game. You could have defeated the Archon and Established a world for humanity and still have been a ruthless rogue pathfinder who joined a group of murderous exiles You can't be pathfinder and be the leader of the exiles. Both groups are at odds with each other and you would lose your ship and most of your crew if you left the Nexus for the exiles.
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Post by colfoley on Apr 7, 2017 19:58:46 GMT
Except it didn't lower it, in any aspect. I can't believe anyone could say that with a straight face. But it's how many people post. 1) They'll acknowledge Andromeda's flaws, but then attack previous entries or other games in an attempt to make Andromeda look better than it is. 2) The'll acknowledge how other games did something better, but then add an aside that snidely puts those games down in an attempt to make Andromeda look better. 3) It's pathetic. Ignoring the fact that is not what people are doing at all. I think colfoley could expand on what he means by that. only expansion needed is that you could only play gruff Geralt and gruff Geralt with a side of sarcasm.
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Post by solaxe on Apr 7, 2017 20:00:55 GMT
You can roleplay your class, bye
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Post by setokaiba on Apr 7, 2017 20:06:07 GMT
Ignoring the fact that is not what people are doing at all. I think colfoley could expand on what he means by that. only expansion needed is that you could only play gruff Geralt and gruff Geralt with a side of sarcasm. There are times when you can be pretty ruthless but for the most part you're correct. W3 is a great game but fans did overrate it as if it is a perfect RPG.
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Post by Estaq99 on Apr 7, 2017 20:11:50 GMT
I keep on going back to this well...because it's such low handging fruit...but if Witcher 3 be considered an RPG (and by some the best RPG ever) then Andromeda definitely is one. Imo while Witcher raised the bar in so many ways it lowered the bar in terms RPGness to the point where the genre almost has no meaning. Not that Andromeda isn't a great RPG in its own right. It's certainly the best Mass Effect RPG ever and it rivals Inquisition in pure control of your character. The few instances of 'auto dialogue' do not change that. Hahahahaha. You are the luckiest gamer in history. You are the only one who received a completely different version of MEA than the whole rest of customers around the world. Or you are either trolling or certainly delusional.
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