Maker's Breath.... (Official Cullen Rutherford discussion)

I'm talking about what an imaginary, pixel character called the Inquisitor does, NOT other players.

I feel these three choices in the most basic way were presented as:

1) no lyrium - Cullen is less efficient (but he lives at the end of the game)
2) lyrium forever - Cullen is at his best as commanding officer (but he will die at the end of the game)

Both of these options balance each other out with a negative and positive factor going for them.

I feel both of these options are negated/rendered useless when you can have the best of both worlds in one go.

3) temporary lyrium - Cullen is BOTH at his best and he lives happily ever after. No negative point to counteract it <- that's why I called this option sparklypoo

Obviously, there are many ways to role play the situation. Hey, there are players out there who hate Cullen and would want him to die at the end of the game, so lyrium forever is their best option. But from my personal perspective this is what it looks like at the base level. 3 has no drawback. You win by clicking 3 all the time because you get all the bonuses and no minuses from it.

Once again, what does my person opinion of not liking the temporary lyrium option has to do with me supposedly restricting other players from clicking anything? I don't like the damn option means just that I don't like the middle option.

Neither choice has immediate consequences regardless, so whether he's at his best on or off it is really just head canon. He peforms exactly the same way either way.

What exactly is the problem? Are you mad at the players for taking the choice or mad at Bioware for not making the choice nuanced enough?

No. I'm not. Stop assigning all sorts of bullshit to me. I don't have a problem with the choices of other people. You're trying to find some kind of social reasoning behind my posts where there isn't any.

I don't like temporary lyrium option for certain reasons. I can discuss them if I want. What other people choose is none of my business.

You've started this entire discussion insulting me based on some wild assumption that supposedly I have a problem with something other people choose to do in their games. No. I don't.

We all reflect on all choices as moral or immoral.

I do view this choice as an immoral one. Why should I see feeding drugs to someone as a good thing?

But, that doesn't mean that I want to punish some group of players or cast them in a negative light. It's extremely insulting you would take my words and interpret them in such a way.

I view giving Fenris back to his Master as immoral.
I view feeding Redcliffe to the horde of zombies as immoral.

Sooooo????? It's none of my business if players want to use them or not.

I never said you should see allowing someone autonomy over their own body as a good thing...wait, that sounds a bit odd. We're not feeding him drugs. Ever.

I'm really confused about what this debate is over. Can you clarify what you want to debate? I'm lost.

Addictive doesn't mean dangerous. Sugar is also addictive. Caffiene also very addictive. Alcohol can create a body dependency. Long term use of lyrium essentially leads to memory problems in old age. Withdrawal symptoms can literally kill you. If Cullen became a street urchin, it was probabl because of the side effects of high addiction, not the drug itself. IE when alcoholics stop eating because it interferes with their buzz. And maybe they only have money for one thing, drugs or food, and so alcoholics literally die of not only liver failure but also starvation from lack of nutrition. Samson managed his addiction well enough over a decade after his expulsion, still alive and strong enough for Cory to take notice. Cullen couldn't manage his addiction, and I heavily wonder where all his friends from the Inquisition are exactly in this scenario, that he'd be left to die on the streets.



No one forces lyrium on Cullen. Frankly, before we walked in on the convo between Cass and Cullen, we didnt even know Cullen was off. And after the decision to keep him off, he never mentions issues again. He could easily have continued not taking it after his tantrum in his office and the sort of Inky that would order him to keep taking it would never have noticed because they obviously don't give a shit. And rightfully, this forever means a bad outcome.



You're not telling anyone how to play games, true enough, but I felt you were suggesting more punishment in our games for our morally grey choices. Which I disagree with, because then only Sparkly Heros get anything they want. And that's boring and also not what I play Bioware games for.

I've played a truly awful Hawke and managed to rival mance Fenris while I was at it. It had a lot of wow moments for what a functional, if completely toxic, relationship could look like. That exploration was glorious.

I don't get that vibe from the middle ground option with Cullen. I recall the conversation with him, as a non lover Templar Male, being understanding and supportive. Maybe a little over optimistic, I suppose, considering the war could have gone longer. But then, we would have had to reconsider the decision after another year passed with no end to the war in sight. Reevaluate what was best for Cullen.

When did I ever say this? I'm saying your Real World Paralells are incorrect with the lore. You're projecting Real World Information about Cocaine onto In Fictional World information about Lyrium. Lyrium is safe to use for decades with long term effects showing up as memory issues that are almost Alzhiemer like. As I mentioned before, it would be a poor lyrium leash for the Chantry to use if it killed half of it's users. And mages would be dropping like flies, because they only rarely use it, making it far more likely for them to overdose--- IF overdosing was even possible because there has been no reference to anyone overdosing on lyrium. If possible, it would have happened to the Magisters who attempted to Map the Fade but gave up because it was unmapable. Additionally, entirely absurd amounts were used by the Magisters to enter the Fade (alongside with lots of blood magic) yet they all arrived at the empty Golden Throne just fine. No one died.

So lore says there is no such thing as overdoses.
Lore says there are no short term side effects that can kill you.
Lore does state that long term lyrium use can affect your mind, but the implication is decades not a couple of years.
Lore does state that it's addictive. So anyone lacking the willpower or, at least, the financial restrictions that force you to be on lyrium at a steady iv drop pace, will put themselves in dangerous situations for more.

If Cullen possessed the will power to drop it once, it makes little sense for him to not attempt to do so again later. Except that anyone who told him he should just stay on it forever means they don't care about him. The message is, "I don't care about you in the long term." And that's why he breaks up with Inky. But for some reason, I guess this also tells him he should stop caring about himself as well? The middle ground says, "I'm concerned now for a lot of reasons, but in the long term I agree you should be off this drug that concerns you so." That's caring about him, even if misguided care. So he knows he's loved and he knows he should keep caring. So we get the better outcome.

He really controls himself in all scenarios, so I still argue that his death outcome makes little sense with his character.

I mean, I once broke up with a guy for his use of Pot. Did you know a week later he called me up and told me he was now using cocaine and it was all my fault? Just like my ex was responsible for his choices, so is Cullen.




We never "feed" the drugs to anyone as a PC. Only the Chantry can claim this sin, as I don't believe they inform their recruits of the issues with it.



I judge you, as a person, none at all. WEll, okay, when you told me to fuck off, I thought some words, maybe "rude" at the very least, but the rest of the time, none at all.

And I am discussing things, or at least, trying to point out where your lore understandings seem wrong to me. So we can discuss things on equal Lore Footing.

But if you're determined to think of lyrium as if it's Cocaine, I guess there is no point.

Maybe compare the quote to what you're saying I said, realize that they are nothing alike (not even close?), and get off mine. 

Most of my conversation had to do with

• Lore in Thedas 
• How developers should balance reality with issues like budget and maintaining the morally grey by not punishing players for every single choice that doesn't have the Golden Hero Stamp
• And hypothetical roleplay scenarios that allow for someone to care about Cullen while not necessarily giving him the best advice about his life

Ordering Cullen to take lyrium doesn't alter his feelings for the Inquisitor. He still loves her when he breaks up with her. The break up doesn't occur because she was a big meany, it comes because she instils the notion in him that his personal will and want must be sacrificed for the greater good.

Emotionally blackmailing him is not better than a blunt order. Both of these are different methods leading to the same notion that convinces him to go against what he wants and convinces him to take lyrium.

I find it contradictory that he uses this notion of self-sacrifice to break up in one case, but stays in the relationship in another.

I don't think I deserve getting branded a raving fangirl who seeks punishment for a chunk on the internet population for holding this opinion. You would be angry too if someone accused you of some extremely offensive stuff that isn't true.



I don't doubt his will. I doubt his health is strong enough to take it the 2nd time around. He's still a character I care for, so I'd rather he not die, but I still think it made little sense to have the same outcome.



You insult someone and then wander why they don't want to discuss with you all these wonderful lore thingies you claim have oh so superior knowledge to.

lol When I said 'feed' you obviously assumed I literally meant spoon involved.

I am reiterating this point because I have a problem with your general attitude towards me and this isn't the first time you've done it. You seem to feel entitled to criticizing and judging me. Unless you can communicate with me in a different manner, go find someone else to pick on because I'm not interested in being bullied.

Got this from google.

Sometimes Cullen needs help with flirting. What are friends for?

Yeah, there doesn't seem to be any evidence that you can fatally overdose on lyrium, unlike real-world drugs.

(Just thought it was pertinent to the conversation, that the secondary definition of "overdosing" is what lyrium addicts engage in.)

The other difference with real-world drugs/addiction is that once usage ceases, the cravings generally subside over time.

Templars one the other hand seem to permanently be stuck with lyrium-cravings even after they cease using it, because their physiology has been fundamentally altered (according to Cole) to always "want to connect to.. something older". The only thing Templars can do is to learn how to manage these cravings and deal with any side-effects (like headaches), as Cullen had to.

Support group therapy could be another way too. The more linkages in memory, the better retention perhaps?

"Hi, my name is Ser Theodore, and I served in the Circle for-"

"Wait, didn't we meet before?"

"Ser Matthew, we've worked in the same Circle for 13 years."

"Oh. I thought you looked familiar."