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Post by aglomeracja on Apr 14, 2017 20:19:26 GMT
I'd like to point out that comedians rarely become leaders.
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Post by Ieldra on Apr 14, 2017 20:33:14 GMT
....which you wouldn't know from Shepard's lines. Shepard's prevalent tone suggests experience, but his lines often suggest an 80-IQ private. Meanwhile Ryder is inexperienced, and that shows in her prevalent tone and you can't opt out of it, but she's mentally more mature than her inexperience would suggest. Well, as long as you don't attempt to romance Suvi. Sweet Ieldra I disagree with you  I felt that Ryder was very immature in her behavior while Shepard was more mature. The whole crew in mea felt very teenage like to me compared to the other Mass Effect games. I can hear Shepard speaking in my memory, and their voices - both male and female - do sound more mature than Ryder at any time, but if you forget the voices and just read the lines, it's very different, almost the other way round, at least for my Ryder who mostly sticks to the professional/logical options. If you consider the lines as written, and detached from the VA, do you still have the same impression? |
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Post by correctamundo on Apr 14, 2017 20:48:14 GMT
Trying to be witty shows an active brain. Shep was a bit of a dullard to be honest. The funniest thing she could do usually involved violence as the punchline. Constantly trying to be witty gets old really fast. Especially when the quips aren't that clever to begin with. Plus, it kind of ruins roleplaying for logical/professional Ryder, but that's a whole another issue entirely. I sure don't know how you managed that outcome since I'm playing a mostly logical and some professional with occasional casual/emotional Ryder now and she hardly ever jokes at all. Thankfully she's not a total bore though. |
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Post by sdzald on Apr 14, 2017 21:03:26 GMT
Um ok sure ... Ryder can't even figure out how to take a leak without SAM giving him full instructions. |
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Post by Ieldra on Apr 14, 2017 21:08:28 GMT
Um ok sure ... Ryder can't even figure out how to take a leak without SAM giving him full instructions. Oh, Ryder can do fine without SAM. SAM gives unwanted advice because the writers assumed *we* can't. |
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Post by FemShepard'sPie on Apr 14, 2017 21:13:36 GMT
People who prefer Shepard/paragon/renegade are typically people who enjoy playing the anti-hero in games. They see Ryder as too much of a "good guy" and that turns them off. Either that, or they're used to Shepard and crew after three games + DLC and don't like change. I don't think it has much to do with Ryder's/Shepard's intelligence. Don't know if I agree with this. A lot of people probably played Paragade or Renegon, however you want to say playing a mixed game and like having the option of, I can be diplomatic in this instance or I can tell someone how I really feel in another. I also would like the option to play a Ryder that felt the need to grow up and mature quickly after having all of that thrust on them, or one that felt regardless of their age and experience they deserved respect or to be treated as an equal. You don't have these options in the game. I played my Ryder this way. She started out as a bit wet behind-the-ears. unsure of herself, and somewhat naive but by the end she grew to be more professional, confident, and a bit of a soldier in her own right. I really liked playing and seeing the progression throughout the game. |
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Post by Ahriman on Apr 14, 2017 21:25:25 GMT
Why, yes of course. Four Paragon options are clearly better than one. Unless you wanted to play as Renegade, then you are out of luck here.
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Post by Trilobite Derby on Apr 14, 2017 21:34:55 GMT
Not terrible, could be better but there's room for different Ryders.
Also, I haven't run across a line of autodialogue that pisses me off as much as "You're not even alive, not really. You're just a machine! And machines can be broken!" I will hate that forever. Extra special much for the illusion of choice.
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Post by Melcara on Apr 14, 2017 21:35:02 GMT
Why, yes of course. Four Paragon options are clearly better than one. Unless you wanted to play as Renegade, then you are out of luck here. That's because Paragon/Renegade is apparently "too Shepard". Whatever that means. |
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Post by VanSinn on Apr 14, 2017 21:40:09 GMT
Why, yes of course. Four Paragon options are clearly better than one. Unless you wanted to play as Renegade, then you are out of luck here. Why does it have to be paragon vs renegade? I never liked that mechanic in the MET. Led my Shepard to sound just a bit schizophrenic at times. Very little consistency between one outlook and another. To get the most consistent "feel" to Shepard, you kinda needed to go one way or the other nearly 100%. I prefer the ability to stay consistent without needing to be locked in to one path or the other, or you sound nucking futz. There are quite a few decisions in ME:A that let you choose between altruism/idealism and pragmatism/cynicism. No, we didn't get the more extreme Renegade options, and there were a couple of points I wished I had the option to choose something JUST a little harsher to say, but 4 shades of Paragon is a vast oversimplification that I'm frankly tired of hearing. |
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Post by Ahriman on Apr 14, 2017 21:41:32 GMT
Why, yes of course. Four Paragon options are clearly better than one. Unless you wanted to play as Renegade, then you are out of luck here. There are quite a few decisions in ME:A that let you choose between altruism/idealism and pragmatism/cynicism. For example? |
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Post by VanSinn on Apr 14, 2017 21:47:36 GMT
There are quite a few decisions in ME:A that let you choose between altruism/idealism and pragmatism/cynicism. For example? I'd hafta go back over to get specifics, but there are two that spring to mind immediately. When Jaal finds out that the Kett were Angaran, you have the option to either tell him to not give up hope that they can be changed back (idealist) or tell him that they're basically gone forever. (pragmatist) There is also a side quest on Aya about delivering messages from the angarans to the Nexus, and you have the choice to transmit the messages as is, including the negative ones from angry/mistrustful angarans, or to edit the messages to only send the positive ones. I wouldn't put this necessarily on an idealist/pragmatist scale, but it goes with the same theme. The actual outcomes of these different choices aren't terribly different, but they allow you to choose how YOUR Ryder would act. The outcomes of your actions are largely out of your control, in real life and in the game (although in real life, we obviously have more control of further decisions/actions to get the outcome we want). |
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Post by vonuber on Apr 14, 2017 22:00:11 GMT
Why, yes of course. Four Paragon options are clearly better than one. Unless you wanted to play as Renegade, then you are out of luck here. Very Paragon:   |
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Post by VanSinn on Apr 14, 2017 22:05:06 GMT
Why, yes of course. Four Paragon options are clearly better than one. Unless you wanted to play as Renegade, then you are out of luck here. Very Paragon: To be fair, though, that quest was pretty heavy handed. Either let the Kett live (and be tortured by the Angaran) or kill him yourself, but doom the Angaran woman to the realization she'd never find her family again. I think it could have been handled a bit better, but my brain is too tired to try and "rewrite" the scene, so to speak.  |
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Post by Ahriman on Apr 14, 2017 22:12:57 GMT
I'd hafta go back over to get specifics, but there are two that spring to mind immediately. When Jaal finds out that the Kett were Angaran, you have the option to either tell him to not give up hope that they can be changed back (idealist) or tell him that they're basically gone forever. (pragmatist) There is also a side quest on Aya about delivering messages from the angarans to the Nexus, and you have the choice to transmit the messages as is, including the negative ones from angry/mistrustful angarans, or to edit the messages to only send the positive ones. I wouldn't put this necessarily on an idealist/pragmatist scale, but it goes with the same theme. The actual outcomes of these different choices aren't terribly different, but they allow you to choose how YOUR Ryder would act. The outcomes of your actions are largely out of your control, in real life and in the game (although in real life, we obviously have more control of further decisions/actions to get the outcome we want). Fair example, but what does it change? Kett are must be done either way. How is it better than similiar non-decisive P/R replies? Why, yes of course. Four Paragon options are clearly better than one. Unless you wanted to play as Renegade, then you are out of luck here. Very Paragon: Heh, and now that's a bad one. "Shoot a monster so she can go on with her life" is as Paragon as it gets. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2017 22:16:41 GMT
Ryder's personality never changed, and the dialogue was pretty much four different ways to say the same thing. Let's test that theory with a couple of different versions of Ryder's initial meeting with Sloane. Note: there are additional permutations, depending on exactly which choices you make throughout. |
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Post by decafhigh on Apr 14, 2017 22:18:08 GMT
Um ok sure ... Ryder can't even figure out how to take a leak without SAM giving him full instructions. Oh, Ryder can do fine without SAM. SAM gives unwanted advice because the writers assumed *we* can't. "SAM I really need to take a bio break here." "Pathfinder, perhaps the scanner could reveal a suitable location." |
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Post by VanSinn on Apr 14, 2017 22:19:01 GMT
I'd hafta go back over to get specifics, but there are two that spring to mind immediately. When Jaal finds out that the Kett were Angaran, you have the option to either tell him to not give up hope that they can be changed back (idealist) or tell him that they're basically gone forever. (pragmatist) There is also a side quest on Aya about delivering messages from the angarans to the Nexus, and you have the choice to transmit the messages as is, including the negative ones from angry/mistrustful angarans, or to edit the messages to only send the positive ones. I wouldn't put this necessarily on an idealist/pragmatist scale, but it goes with the same theme. The actual outcomes of these different choices aren't terribly different, but they allow you to choose how YOUR Ryder would act. The outcomes of your actions are largely out of your control, in real life and in the game (although in real life, we obviously have more control of further decisions/actions to get the outcome we want). Fair example, but what does it change? Kett are must be done either way. How is it better than similiar non-decisive P/R replies? I'm using those to explain why "4 shades of Paragon" is a vast oversimplification. A P/R choice in those specific instances could have worked well... Unless the Paragon was all lovey dovey like alot of blue replies were in the MET, and the Renegade choice was "kill 'em all" like so many of the red choices were. Then the next situation comes along....and you may want to respond differently than you did the previous choice. Now it's lovey dovey response instead of the kill em all response...that's very internally inconsistent and made Shepard seem psychotic at times. This system is more subtle, yes, but it allows for more consistency while ALSO giving you the means to define how your Ryder responds. Sometimes, I wouldn't have minded a more forceful response as an option, and I can see where people who liked full on Renegades could want more of that back, but ME:A certainly is NOT "4 shades of paragon." |
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Post by Shinobu on Apr 14, 2017 22:31:28 GMT
There are quite a few decisions in ME:A that let you choose between altruism/idealism and pragmatism/cynicism. For example? Deciding whether to spare or destroy the exaltation factory and all the Angara within it
Deciding whether to shoot Primus in the back after making a deal with her
Deciding whether to accept Primus' help in the final mission
Deciding whether to let the Angara keep the water on Elaaden and get kickbacks vs. giving water to everyone
Deciding whether to mine for gas, degrade the environment and get kickbacks vs. finding water for the settlement on Eos
Deciding whether to save or destroy the data that could be used for biological warfare
Deciding whether to save or experiment on the Voeld whales
Deciding whether to kill or spare the AI
Deciding whether to free or enslave the AI if you let it live
Deciding to help the experiment subjects or torture the Cerberus scientists
Deciding whether to support Sloane vs. Charlatan
Deciding on the Nexus representative
Deciding whether to give Morda the drive core
That's just off the top of my head. I found several of the choices difficult. |
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Post by sdzald on Apr 14, 2017 22:32:14 GMT
Oh, Ryder can do fine without SAM. SAM gives unwanted advice because the writers assumed *we* can't. "SAM I really need to take a bio break here." "Pathfinder, perhaps the scanner could reveal a suitable location." LMAOOOOOO thanks I got a good laugh out of that |
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Post by Ahriman on Apr 14, 2017 22:34:16 GMT
Fair example, but what does it change? Kett are must be done either way. How is it better than similiar non-decisive P/R replies? I'm using those to explain why "4 shades of Paragon" is a vast oversimplification. A P/R choice in those specific instances could have worked well... Unless the Paragon was all lovey dovey like alot of blue replies were in the MET, and the Renegade choice was "kill 'em all" like so many of the red choices were. Then the next situation comes along....and you may want to respond differently than you did the previous choice. Now it's lovey dovey response instead of the kill em all response...that's very internally inconsistent and made Shepard seem psychotic at times. This system is more subtle, yes, but it allows for more consistency while ALSO giving you the means to define how your Ryder responds. Sometimes, I wouldn't have minded a more forceful response as an option, and I can see where people who liked full on Renegades could want more of that back, but ME:A certainly is NOT "4 shades of paragon." I guess, I didn't elaborate enough. OT had single system for decisions and dialogues. MEA has two, ELCP for dialogues and branches for decisions. The latter is always neutral (except loyalty missions, these strangely fall out, but people are okay with writing there, aren't they?) the former is a choice between goofy good guy and reserved good guy. Deciding whether to spare or destroy the exaltation factory and all the Angara within it
Deciding whether to shoot Primus in the back after making a deal with her
Deciding whether to accept Primus' help in the final mission
Deciding whether to let the Angara keep the water on Elaaden and get kickbacks vs. giving water to everyone
Deciding whether to mine for gas, degrade the environment and get kickbacks vs. finding water for the settlement on Eos
Deciding whether to save or destroy the data that could be used for biological warfare
Deciding whether to save or experiment on the Voeld whales
Deciding whether to kill or spare the AI
Deciding whether to free or enslave the AI if you let it live
Deciding to help the experiment subjects or torture the Cerberus scientists
Deciding whether to support Sloane vs. Charlatan
Deciding on the Nexus representative
Deciding whether to give Morda the drive core
That's just off the top of my head. I found several of the choices difficult. Eh? All are trendy "morally grey". What were you answering to? |
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Post by sdzald on Apr 14, 2017 22:42:41 GMT
There is another issue with the dialog choices. It sure would be nice to know ahead of time exactly what it is I am going to say. There were many times I wanted to scream at what came out of Ryder's mouth after making a selection I thought fit. I to thought there could have been a lot more flexibility in MET paragon/renegade choices but at least I had a good idea of what that response was going to be.
Then there is the TOTAL lack of any game impact in what I pick to say. In the above example of first meeting Sloan, does the story and future quest options change in ANY way? Nope.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2017 22:52:05 GMT
There is another issue with the dialog choices. It sure would be nice to know ahead of time exactly what it is I am going to say. There were many times I wanted to scream at what came out of Ryder's mouth after making a selection I thought fit. I to thought there could have been a lot more flexibility in MET paragon/renegade choices but at least I had a good idea of what that response was going to be. That problem has existed as long as they've used paraphrases with a dialogue wheel. DA2's Hawke was my first experience with it, and I remember how frustrating it was at times. I've since become accustomed to it. That's true of most dialogue options in most games - they exist for character expression / role-play, although the DA series associates follower approval with many of those choices. Some of MET's interrupts were great fun, but they didn't impact the storyline. |
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Post by Shinobu on Apr 14, 2017 22:59:58 GMT
Deciding whether to spare or destroy the exaltation factory and all the Angara within it
Deciding whether to shoot Primus in the back after making a deal with her
Deciding whether to accept Primus' help in the final mission
Deciding whether to let the Angara keep the water on Elaaden and get kickbacks vs. giving water to everyone
Deciding whether to mine for gas, degrade the environment and get kickbacks vs. finding water for the settlement on Eos
Deciding whether to save or destroy the data that could be used for biological warfare
Deciding whether to save or experiment on the Voeld whales
Deciding whether to kill or spare the AI
Deciding whether to free or enslave the AI if you let it live
Deciding to help the experiment subjects or torture the Cerberus scientists
Deciding whether to support Sloane vs. Charlatan
Deciding on the Nexus representative
Deciding whether to give Morda the drive core
That's just off the top of my head. I found several of the choices difficult. Eh? All are trendy "morally grey". What were you answering to? You asked for examples of choices between altruistic/idealistic vs. pragmatic/cynical options. Do you need them color coded? |
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Post by sdzald on Apr 14, 2017 23:20:51 GMT
There is another issue with the dialog choices. It sure would be nice to know ahead of time exactly what it is I am going to say. There were many times I wanted to scream at what came out of Ryder's mouth after making a selection I thought fit. I to thought there could have been a lot more flexibility in MET paragon/renegade choices but at least I had a good idea of what that response was going to be. That problem has existed as long as they've used paraphrases with a dialogue wheel. DA2's Hawke was my first experience with it, and I remember how frustrating it was at times. I've since become accustomed to it. That's true of most dialogue options in most games - they exist for character expression / role-play, although the DA series associates follower approval with many of those choices. Some of MET's interrupts were great fun, but they didn't impact the storyline. Well you are right about not really knowing what is going to be said. Even in Witcher 3 which I love there were times I thought I was saying one thing yet Geralt said soemthing totally different. However in MET choices you made really did affect things , often times not in any major way. I will give two examples. When first talking with the 'bad' reporter you can decide to punch her instead of going on with the interview. That action not only causes you to get a bit of a dressing down by Admiral Hacket but the next time you meet her she has take self defense classes. Yes very minor but your action change things in the game, NOT just your head. In ME3 you meet Kelly who is hiding out from Cerberus but doing aid for refugees. In essence you have the choice to tell her "to keep up the good work." OR "You better change your identity, Cerberus has a long reach." After the Cerberus attack she is either dead or she thanks you for the advise and it saved her life. Yes it amounts to a hill of beans in the over all story yet you feel like you have affected the game world and not just in your head. In MEA there is very LITTLE affect no matter how you play your character. |
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I felt that Ryder was very immature in her behavior while Shepard was more mature. The whole crew in mea felt very teenage like to me compared to the other Mass Effect games.
