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Post by mfr001 on Apr 22, 2017 11:28:22 GMT
I must say, I like Ryder - as a person, or rather the way I shaped her: young, emotional woman, excited for new life, adventures and discoveries, who suddenly has to deal with family tragedy and responsibility she didn't expect and definitely doesn't want, but still trying her best to become a professional Pathfinder, to fit in this new role. But I don't like her as protagonist. SAM ruined Ryder for me, just as Anchor ruined Inquisitor - idea of being "the one and only to save a day", and not because of personal skills, experience and feats, but because of some "gift", some "accident", is just not appealing to me at all, it cheapens the whole experience. When we first met Shepard in ME1, she was already Spectre candidate, and she definitely deserved it: about 10 years in military, N7 - elite commando, some extraordinaire feat in her career - it all made her believable, a right person to be first human agent of Council. Prothean beacon didn't gave her a key to save a world, just a vision she didn't even fully understood. In the end, everything Shepard accomplished was because of who she were. Ryder without SAM is nothing special, not a Pathfinder material for sure - Shepard without a beacon still would be a Spectre, a great soldier, a respected commander. Chance is possibly the most powerful force in the universe. If Louis the Pious had not had a fourth son, German reunification might not have been delayed until the 19th century. (The Carolingians are my favourite dysfunctional family. ) If Robert had not been so good with a knife then John Comyn might have been king. The two examples are relevant as my view is that Alex was intent on setting up a Ryder dynasty of human Pathfinders. (This view might be modified when I finish the game.) Although Cora was, on the face of it, Pathfinder material she did not get an implant so she was out of the running. No one said life was fair. A further thought - what would have happened if Ashley had been first to touch the beacon? Would Shepherd have been able to achieve success, however you define it, lacking the knowledge which she gained from the beacon?
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Apr 22, 2017 11:45:29 GMT
And that's the thing with Andromeda as well. It's not bad, it's ok-ish. But ok-ish is not what made KoTOR and Mass Effect legendary games. It not what made Revan and Shepard so memorable. And this saddens me. To think that Bioware is just no capable of doing games like that anymore... Oh well... the scene in the bar with Not-Wrex was pretty cool though. They're replacing the departed professionals with fanboys and fangirls and they think Joss Whedon-style dialogue/direction is great. They'll never be able to engage me emotionally again.
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Post by decafhigh on Apr 22, 2017 13:03:27 GMT
They're replacing the departed professionals with fanboys and fangirls and they think Joss Whedon-style dialogue/direction is great. They'll never be able to engage me emotionally again. ZOMG! Thank You. I had been trying to come up with a good comparison and I think that hit the nail right on the head. MEA really does remind me of an episode of Buffy.
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Post by vonuber on Apr 22, 2017 14:19:29 GMT
Buffy was excellent though, and still is. Seems to me people are hankering after more edgy grimlord McEdgemeister, the sort of thing that attracts you as a teenager.
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Post by Redhead on Apr 22, 2017 14:33:34 GMT
The two examples are relevant as my view is that Alex was intent on setting up a Ryder dynasty of human Pathfinders. (This view might be modified when I finish the game.) Although Cora was, on the face of it, Pathfinder material she did not get an implant so she was out of the running. No one said life was fair. Well, my view changed from "Hm, maybe Alec really saw something in his daughter and believed that she's a better choice" to "This man is dysfunctional moron!" I think you misunderstood me - I didn't say, that without beacon Shepard could defeat Saren and Sovereign, or stop Reapers. What I said, is that Shepard didn't became a Spectre because of beacon, but her previous accomplishments, while Ryder became a Pathfinder only because of SAM.
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Post by decafhigh on Apr 22, 2017 14:40:21 GMT
Buffy was excellent though, and still is. Seems to me people are hankering after more edgy grimlord McEdgemeister, the sort of thing that attracts you as a teenager. No, no, I loved Buffy when I was a teenager. I can imagine going back and watching it now lots of it would feel just as corny as MEA though. That's not to say the show didn't have great moments with lots of feels, it most certainly did (Joyce, Tara, Willow and Warren, Angel killing Jenny, you get the idea). MEA lacks those really hard hitting moments to contrast the barrage of scooby gang jokes though. At least the ones it did have I didn't feel invested in because it was so hard for me to relate to Ryder.
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Post by KaiserShep on Apr 22, 2017 15:07:15 GMT
I think you misunderstood me - I didn't say, that without beacon Shepard could defeat Saren and Sovereign, or stop Reapers. What I said, is that Shepard didn't became a Spectre because of beacon, but her previous accomplishments, while Ryder became a Pathfinder only because of SAM. Actually, Shepard is considered for the role from prior accomplishments, but Shepard actually becomes a Spectre primarily out of political convenience. The mission to Eden Prime was a test, and Shepard technically failed. The beacon was destroyed and the Spectre that came along to observe Shepard in action (who would likely have been the deciding factor in taking on the role) was killed in action. The whole thing was pretty much a disaster. And then Anderson throws in this bit about visions, which makes the humans look kind of crazy (I love how you can say that they'll think you're crazy prior, and he just does it anyway). Saren, sinister bastard as he may be, put up a solid defense at that meeting. If it wasn't for Tali suddenly showing up with a damning mp3 file, Shepard would have remained simply an Alliance operative and the Council would have given no fucks about it. But with their disinclination to send forces into the Terminus, and seeing a potential benefit to appeasing the humans, who were gaining in influence on the Citadel, Shepard, this already-candidate for the job, was then given Spectre status. If the Council wasn't so concerned about provoking people in the Terminus, they would have sent someone who was already a Spectre. In any case, I don't think these comparisons are really fair. SAM is basically a "tool of the trade" for the Pathfinder role, and each member of the Pathfinder team is equipped to potentially have to take up the responsibility in the event the current Pathfinder is incapacitated or dies, so it doesn't really function the same way the Spectres do at all.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 22, 2017 15:18:06 GMT
I think you misunderstood me - I didn't say, that without beacon Shepard could defeat Saren and Sovereign, or stop Reapers. What I said, is that Shepard didn't became a Spectre because of beacon, but her previous accomplishments, while Ryder became a Pathfinder only because of SAM. Actually, Shepard is considered for the role from prior accomplishments, but Shepard actually becomes a Spectre primarily out of political convenience. The mission to Eden Prime was a test, and Shepard technically failed. The beacon was destroyed and the Spectre that came along to observe Shepard in action (who would likely have been the deciding factor in taking on the role) was killed in action. I know they try to present it as a fault on Shepard's part, but let's look at the reality. If an existing Spectre and a Spectre candidate (who, to be that, must be exceptional) can't handle a mission together, doesn't it just mean that some serious shit is going down? In fact, you could fault Nihlus's decision to go on ahead rather than staying with Shepard (like he was supposed to) as a major reason for the mission failure. Had they stuck to the plan, and handled things together, Saren might have lost before he got started. No, I think Shepard proved himself. He survived with the actual Spectre failed.
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Post by KaiserShep on Apr 22, 2017 15:22:45 GMT
Actually, Shepard is considered for the role from prior accomplishments, but Shepard actually becomes a Spectre primarily out of political convenience. The mission to Eden Prime was a test, and Shepard technically failed. The beacon was destroyed and the Spectre that came along to observe Shepard in action (who would likely have been the deciding factor in taking on the role) was killed in action. I know they try to present it as a fault on Shepard's part, but let's look at the reality. If an existing Spectre and a Spectre candidate (who, to be that, must be exceptional) can't handle a mission together, doesn't it just mean that some serious shit is going down? In fact, you could fault Nihlus's decision to go on ahead rather than staying with Shepard (like he was supposed to) as a major reason for the mission failure. Had they stuck to the plan, and handled things together, Saren might have lost before he got started. No, I think Shepard proved himself. He survived with the actual Spectre failed. Well yeah, Nihilus was an idiot, and he dies faster on his own. Obviously the circumstances were far more extreme, but just the same, Shepard technically gets the role of Spectre not because of the reality of the situation, but the convenience of being part of a small strike team that could deal with Saren more discretely. They don't really seem interested in details anyway. Just look at the Virmire mission. Shepard is blamed for something an STG team is actually responsible for.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 22, 2017 15:25:53 GMT
I know they try to present it as a fault on Shepard's part, but let's look at the reality. If an existing Spectre and a Spectre candidate (who, to be that, must be exceptional) can't handle a mission together, doesn't it just mean that some serious shit is going down? In fact, you could fault Nihlus's decision to go on ahead rather than staying with Shepard (like he was supposed to) as a major reason for the mission failure. Had they stuck to the plan, and handled things together, Saren might have lost before he got started. No, I think Shepard proved himself. He survived with the actual Spectre failed. Well yeah, Nihilus was an idiot, and he dies faster on his own. Obviously the circumstances were far more extreme, but just the same, Shepard technically gets the role of Spectre not because of the reality of the situation, but the convenience of being part of a small strike team that could deal with Saren more discretely. They don't really seem interested in details anyway. Just look at the Virmire mission. Shepard is blamed for something an STG team is actually responsible for. True, just as he's blamed for a volcano destroying Prothean ruins on Therum.
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Post by KaiserShep on Apr 22, 2017 15:26:48 GMT
Lol I totally forgot about that too. DId you have to set off the volcano, Shepard?
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Post by Redhead on Apr 22, 2017 15:32:26 GMT
And Rachni queen? You killed her: "Shepard, what you just did was a genocide!". You released her: "Shepard, you put whole galaxy in danger!" Umm, Anderson, maybe you want to be a Spectre? Wait, why are you showing me a middle finger?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2017 16:25:38 GMT
Actually, Shepard is considered for the role from prior accomplishments, but Shepard actually becomes a Spectre primarily out of political convenience. The mission to Eden Prime was a test, and Shepard technically failed. The beacon was destroyed and the Spectre that came along to observe Shepard in action (who would likely have been the deciding factor in taking on the role) was killed in action. I know they try to present it as a fault on Shepard's part, but let's look at the reality. If an existing Spectre and a Spectre candidate (who, to be that, must be exceptional) can't handle a mission together, doesn't it just mean that some serious shit is going down? In fact, you could fault Nihlus's decision to go on ahead rather than staying with Shepard (like he was supposed to) as a major reason for the mission failure. Had they stuck to the plan, and handled things together, Saren might have lost before he got started. No, I think Shepard proved himself. He survived with the actual Spectre failed. I agree. Having just played ME1 a few days ago, this mission is really fresh in my head and it was definitely on Nihlus for his death. His scouting was nothing Shepard could do anything about and the destroyed beacon is not even Shepard's fault either. That is on his curious crew who didn't know enough to stay away from the beacon and decided to get curious. And to that extent Shepard went above and beyond by knocking them out of the field and taking the hit himself. Likely his crew would have died. That he lived is considered surprising to Liara. He actually saved the colony as best as he could. He killed all the geth/husks there. He stopped the bombs and destruction of it. So yeah, if it weren't for Nihlus' scouting, they might have stood a much better chance against Saren. Also, he saved Ash whose whole team died and she was probably about to get killed when you find her. Jenkins is a bit of a fail by design. Probably using cover would have been a better choice than sending one guy in with no cover at all, but that's what they wanted so that is what the writers did. He was meant to die.
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 22, 2017 18:47:02 GMT
Buffy was excellent though, and still is. Seems to me people are hankering after more edgy grimlord McEdgemeister, the sort of thing that attracts you as a teenager. No, no, I loved Buffy when I was a teenager. I can imagine going back and watching it now lots of it would feel just as corny as MEA though. That's just you, though. I was past 30 when the show started airing, and past 35 when I decided to listen to the critics and give it a chance.
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Post by kingmandu on Apr 22, 2017 21:17:17 GMT
The Exile >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Revan.
And wait until Ryder gets three full games (how do people keep skipping over this?!?) before comparing him/her to Shepard, smh.
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Post by brad2240 on Apr 23, 2017 17:41:08 GMT
The Exile >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Revan. And wait until Ryder gets three full games (how do people keep skipping over this?!?) before comparing him/her to Shepard, smh.
This.
Revan was overrated. KotOR wasn't, the game was amazing, but Revan as a character was a great plot twist and little else. The Exile was far more interesting.
And Shepard wasn't a gaming icon after just one game either.
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Post by leo3abp on Apr 23, 2017 18:10:46 GMT
The Exile >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Revan. And wait until Ryder gets three full games (how do people keep skipping over this?!?) before comparing him/her to Shepard, smh. You clearly forgetting that Shepard is already much better and more solid protagonist than Ryder in the first ME alone, getting only better and better with each following ME installment. So Ryder chances of catching up seem to be nonexistent - it will take an entirely new character to do that, so might as well get rid of Ryder surname to reduce MEA aftertaste from any future ME games. Please stop making up excuses for MEA terrible character writing, which is all-time low in BW games. I perfectly understand that you simply trying to convince yourself that MEA is a better game that it actually is, because you need to justify those 60+ USD you spent on it, but doing so does not help ME series future in any way, only detracting from it. Fans need to make sure that BW knows how much they screwed up and that low of the lows the MEA is, will not be accepted in the future, so they must pull their shit together. When people make up excuses for Andromeda it only looks as if such low character writing quality is acceptable and will only lead to more low quality games from BW. Just stop and think about what you doing.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem
Origin: tjmitchem
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Post by tjmitchem on Apr 23, 2017 18:36:24 GMT
Nope. Ryder works just fine. You don't like him/her. I get it. Please stop trying to pass your opinion off as fact.
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Post by Doctor Fumbles on Apr 23, 2017 18:41:08 GMT
Nope. Ryder works just fine. You don't like him/her. I get it. Please stop trying to pass your opinion off as fact. He just does that. You get used to it.
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To the Archon! Face down, ass up.
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Origin: tjmitchem
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Post by tjmitchem on Apr 23, 2017 18:45:28 GMT
Nope. Ryder works just fine. You don't like him/her. I get it. Please stop trying to pass your opinion off as fact. He just does that. You get used to it. I know. Believe me, I know.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 24, 2017 3:49:22 GMT
You are doing nothing but talking out of your ass. Bioware had stated several times there is no cannon Shepard. All possibilities are up to us. It does not matter what Bioware stated as long as they simply trying to pander to different audience and provide fanservice with their statements. Sheploo-Destroy is the canon, period. Denying it would be like denying that water is wet. Though that's essentially canon for me I still don't believe this is BioWare canon. Remember, they went out of their way to make the next game in another galaxy just to avoid a canon ending. If they're having a canon ending, why not just continue in the Milky Way? It makes no sense.
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Post by Exile Isan on Apr 24, 2017 4:15:48 GMT
The Exile >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Revan. The Exile remains, even today, to be my favorite protagonist. Heh, as if you couldn't tell.
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Post by KaiserShep on Apr 24, 2017 4:34:35 GMT
It does not matter what Bioware stated as long as they simply trying to pander to different audience and provide fanservice with their statements. Sheploo-Destroy is the canon, period. Denying it would be like denying that water is wet. Though that's essentially canon for me I still don't believe this is BioWare canon. Remember, they went out of their way to make the next game in another galaxy just to avoid a canon ending. If they're having a canon ending, why not just continue in the Milky Way? It makes no sense. It's all fanservice, don't you see? It's an illusion!
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Post by setokaiba on Apr 24, 2017 4:50:27 GMT
The Exile >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Revan. And wait until Ryder gets three full games (how do people keep skipping over this?!?) before comparing him/her to Shepard, smh. You clearly forgetting that Shepard is already much better and more solid protagonist than Ryder in the first ME alone, getting only better and better with each following ME installment. So Ryder chances of catching up seem to be nonexistent - it will take an entirely new character to do that, so might as well get rid of Ryder surname to reduce MEA aftertaste from any future ME games. Please stop making up excuses for MEA terrible character writing, which is all-time low in BW games. I perfectly understand that you simply trying to convince yourself that MEA is a better game that it actually is, because you need to justify those 60+ USD you spent on it, but doing so does not help ME series future in any way, only detracting from it. Fans need to make sure that BW knows how much they screwed up and that low of the lows the MEA is, will not be accepted in the future, so they must pull their shit together. When people make up excuses for Andromeda it only looks as if such low character writing quality is acceptable and will only lead to more low quality games from BW. Just stop and think about what you doing. Ryder right now is ahead of where Shepard was at the end of ME1. Shepard was just a super soldier with very little personality but Ryder at least has some personality. Clearly Shepard is more of badass than Ryder but Ryder was never meant to be one. I agree with you the writing for this could have been much better but let's not pretend like Shepard was some gaming icon after one game. If Shepard story ended after the first game they wouldn't be the beloved character he/she is now but just that character with about as much personality piece of wood. This isn't damage control because I legit like Ryder as a character and want to play with them again in the next game. Bioware just need to step up their writing is all.
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Post by Trilobite Derby on Apr 24, 2017 4:58:47 GMT
The Exile >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Revan. The Exile remains, even today, to be my favorite protagonist. Heh, as if you couldn't tell. I love the Exile and Hawke out of all proportion. Partially because everything's out to get them -- even on a metalevel, where they're both trapped in rushed, messy games with bleh combat. ...I don't actually love Ryder on that level. Or as much as Shepard, but seriously, in Shepard's case, with 3 games and some very solid DLCS ( and Pinnacle Station :rage: ), I'd be shocked if Shep wasn't up there amongst the all time favorites. Ryder's fine. Kind of a snot-nosed brat, hiding insecurities under a layer of snark, but it's a base to build on. And I hope we get to.
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