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Post by SofNascimento on Apr 17, 2017 23:16:32 GMT
I have no problem with people who say they accept this scene and see no problem with it. After all, different peopel have different tolerances and expectation when it comes to lore consistence. However, I have to say I strongly disagree with anyone who says this is not lore shaterring.
I mean, let's compare Cora's and Sarissa's bubble with the one from the Suicide Mission and the one Asari soldier use in the Priority Thessia mission. Like Obi Wan did with Darth Maul, I'll divide this in two parts:
1) Size: The Bubble from the suicide mission is quite large. I'd say it has some 10~15 meters of diameter. But let's say 50 meters taking in consideration the part where it becomes a kind of shockwave. The one in Thessia was smaller, say 5~10 meters. Cora's? Well, it was enough to cover the entire Ark and project foward, growing in size. I'll be extremely conservative here and say it was 2.000 meters in diameter. That's 40 times the size of the SM one. That's a lot. Expect not really because we should be talkig about area. So the biotic field created to protect the Asari ark is, in area, 1600 times bigger than the one from the Suicide Mission. One, I might add, that was (could be) created by Jack and Samara, the former is definitely the most powerful human biotic and Samara is, in the worst possible scenario, just a little bit weaker than Sarissa. If the Huntress is a 10, Samara would be a 9,8 or 9,9. And so, if we consider that the biotic energy needed to created a biotic field is direct proportinal to its area, we would need to say Cora and Sarissa are somehow 800 times more powerful than Jack or Samara. And that's not even the worst part.
2) Deflection: The SM's field didn't have to deflect any incoming missile, indeed, it avoided any type of weapon and deflected exclusively the seeker swarm. However, there were many of them and they kept pouding the bubble for a long time, that was enough to push two of the most powerful biotics in the Milk Way to their limits. The one in Thessia however did deflect missiles, but those were anti-personal and relatively slow. Sarrissa's? Oh, it only deflect dozens of ANTI SHIP ORDINANCES. Imagine how powerful a missile designed to take out dreadnoughts are. I think, even the most conservative person will agree they are order of magnitudes more powerful than a small, anti-personal or even anti-tank rocket. Imagine the speed they were travelling (anti-ship missiles in space have to be designed to travel hundreds of km in short times), and their weight! If they were solid pieces of rock, their sheer size, weight and speed would already made their deflection extremely demanding, but many of them exploded when it hit the barrier! On top of it all, many of them were deflect into the Kett vessel and were enough to destroy it, further evidence of their massive power.
I mean, you can't even begin to compare. Just think of the implication of such a feat. Why did Asari ships needed weapon in the OT? Just put a ring of a few hundred of Asari and you're done! So I'd say the Star Wars comparison made earlier in this threat to be quite reasonable.
The worst part is, if the Tempest had some sort of defense it could have used it to protect the Ark with would lead to a much more satysfing cutscene (in my view). And by that time, the Tempest having guns would be extremely reasonable! We were already in full scale war with the Kett and in direct conflict with a faction of the Angara. Which, by the way, saw the guns in Ai personal as a threat... so much for not arming the ships to look non threatening.
Anyway, this is a cutscene that is better forgotten. Otherwise we need to say Cora is a botic god, easily capable to create a small 200 meters biotic bubble to defend the tempest against a barrage of missiles.
Edit: About the time the biotics field were "on", I'll just ask this: what is easier, lifting 5 kg for 5 minutes or 50 tons for 10 seconds?
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Post by zipzap2000 on Apr 18, 2017 0:06:33 GMT
Sarissa is probably the strongest Asari biotic we have ever met in the game. She's helped by argueably the second strongest human biotic we've ever met, if not the strongest, whose skills have been honed by elite of the Asari commandos. The barrier last for maybe 30 seconds. Also, Sarissa has a SAM and is pathfinder. Given that SAM has full control over her physiology and that biotics is ultimately, lore wise, a physiological thing and we're quite possibly watching the strongest 2 biotics we've ever seen, I don't think it's that impossible. Where do people get that SAM is altering other Pathfinders? Talk to SAM about it, Alec added those protocols to Ryders SAM the others cant do that.
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Post by zipzap2000 on Apr 18, 2017 0:13:41 GMT
The problem with your argument is Jack and Samara were protecting against bugs. Sarissa and Cora redirected a salvo of missiles from a Kett Cruiser, back at the Cruiser. With a Barrier. Let's not forget that feat of the bubble was more endurance and not strength. In which case Cora shouldnt have even been standing by the rnd of it. Its an established fact Biotics exhaust the user physically because the energy required to generate biotics comes from the body. You're essentially burning off calories to create mass effect fields. Which means Cora and Sarissa spent the day using Biotics on Kett and then put up this big barrier and maintained it and then did the impossible. The barrier I can almost believe the rest is a bad joke. Probably point out that barriers are difficult to master even for Asari.
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Post by dreman999 on Apr 18, 2017 1:17:29 GMT
Let's not forget that feat of the bubble was more endurance and not strength. In which case Cora shouldnt have even been standing by the rnd of it. Its an established fact Biotics exhaust the user physically because the energy required to generate biotics comes from the body. You're essentially burning off calories to create mass effect fields. Which means Cora and Sarissa spent the day using Biotics on Kett and then put up this big barrier and maintained it and then did the impossible. The barrier I can almost believe the rest is a bad joke. Probably point out that barriers are difficult to master even for Asari. dude. Even you know it's not that way when you're in the barrier(example las mis sion of me2). Add, they are on zero g with mag boots.A well train biotic can go for hours. Added with the fact that what happen in me2 is the feat of endurance. (They had that barrier up way long then what they had in cora's mission.) And the one in cora's mission is the feat of biotic strenght.
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Post by dreman999 on Apr 18, 2017 1:28:43 GMT
I have no problem with people who say they accept this scene and see no problem with it. After all, different peopel have different tolerances and expectation when it comes to lore consistence. However, I have to say I strongly disagree with anyone who says this is not lore shaterring. I mean, let's compare Cora's and Sarissa's bubble with the one from the Suicide Mission and the one Asari soldier use in the Priority Thessia mission. Like Obi Wan did with Darth Maul, I'll divide this in two parts: 1) Size: The Bubble from the suicide mission is quite large. I'd say it has some 10~15 meters of diameter. But let's say 50 meters taking in consideration the part where it becomes a kind of shockwave. The one in Thessia was smaller, say 5~10 meters. Cora's? Well, it was enough to cover the entire Ark and project foward, growing in size. I'll be extremely conservative here and say it was 2.000 meters in diameter. That's 40 times the size of the SM one. That's a lot. Expect not really because we should be talkig about area. So the biotic field created to protect the Asari ark is, in area, 1600 times bigger than the one from the Suicide Mission. One, I might add, that was (could be) created by Jack and Samara, the former is definitely the most powerful human biotic and Samara is, in the worst possible scenario, just a little bit weaker than Sarissa. If the Huntress is a 10, Samara would be a 9,8 or 9,9. And so, if we consider that the biotic energy needed to created a biotic field is direct proportinal to its area, we would need to say Cora and Sarissa are somehow 800 times more powerful than Jack or Samara. And that's not even the worst part. 2) Deflection: The SM's field didn't have to deflect any incoming missile, indeed, it avoided any type of weapon and deflected exclusively the seeker swarm. However, there were many of them and they kept pouding the bubble for a long time, that was enough to push two of the most powerful biotics in the Milk Way to their limits. The one in Thessia however did deflect missiles, but those were anti-personal and relatively slow. Sarrissa's? Oh, it only deflect dozens of ANTI SHIP ORDINANCES. Imagine how powerful a missile designed to take out dreadnoughts are. I think, even the most conservative person will agree they are order of magnitudes more powerful than a small, anti-personal or even anti-tank rocket. Imagine the speed they were travelling (anti-ship missiles in space have to be designed to travel hundreds of km in short times), and their weight! If they were solid pieces of rock, their sheer size, weight and speed would already made their deflection extremely demanding, but many of them exploded when it hit the barrier! On top of it all, many of them were deflect into the Kett vessel and were enough to destroy it, further evidence of their massive power. I mean, you can't even begin to compare. Just think of the implication of such a feat. Why did Asari ships needed weapon in the OT? Just put a ring of a few hundred of Asari and you're done! So I'd say the Star Wars comparison made earlier in this threat to be quite reasonable. The worst part is, if the Tempest had some sort of defense it could have used it to protect the Ark with would lead to a much more satysfing cutscene (in my view). And by that time, the Tempest having guns would be extremely reasonable! We were already in full scale war with the Kett and in direct conflict with a faction of the Angara. Which, by the way, saw the guns in Ai personal as a threat... so much for not arming the ships to look non threatening. Anyway, this is a cutscene that is better forgotten. Otherwise we need to say Cora is a botic god, easily capable to create a small 200 meters biotic bubble to defend the tempest against a barrage of missiles. Edit: About the time the biotics field were "on", I'll just ask this: what is easier, lifting 5 kg for 5 minutes or 50 tons for 10 seconds? 1. It did not cover the entire ship. And it was power by 2 biotics.It was no were near big enough to cover the ship. 2.anti ship does not matter. If it most slow enough it can be deflected. And me had long time made a point that all an it ship missiles move slow so their mass can be increased for more impact. 3. Kalo before the last mission tells you why the tempest has no gus. It's too small and it would tear the ship apart firing it. Sorry but you're star wars comment does not compare.
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Post by luke on Apr 18, 2017 1:44:09 GMT
This scene didn't bother me at first, but in hindsight it was a bit daft. I don't really care because it's not a big deal, but I'd prefer it if the writers chilled out a bit.
I just chalked it up to the pair of them being insanely powerful biotics. Cora might just be one of the most powerful human biotics in the series as she remarks that her biotics could "crush an APC". As for Sarissa, Asari commandos are some of the most powerful biotics in the Milky Way. On top of that, she's a particularly legendary commando, so it would make sense that her biotics are so powerful.
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Post by dreman999 on Apr 18, 2017 1:50:55 GMT
mass effect goes in detail on their missiles. They are shot much slower then any cannon fire due to the missile tech has technology in it to increase it's mass from maximum impact. No one need to stay slower things are easier to defelect. Added ME3 shows Asari do have training in making and maintaining barriers fordeflecting and stopping missile attacks. It does not matter how heavy attacking the missiles are if they don't explode close enought to radiate ( heat radiation, nuclear radiation,etc.) It won't have the desired effect. And if turned before it can explode then it's still in affective. We are not talking about deflecting or stopping missiles, though. We are talking about REFLECTING them back at the ship that fired them. Of couse the barrier did not send it back to the ship. The momentum of its own rockets did. And the only reason the missile hit the other ship because it was close....which it had to be to use the missiles in the first place.
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Post by VanSinn on Apr 18, 2017 2:22:42 GMT
I'll just say this and leave it here. Most main battle tanks have sloped armor for a reason: the higher the angle, the less force the armor absorbs to deflect incoming rounds. A flat surface is MUCH easier to penetrate than a sloped surface.
The reason I bring this up: If the biotic bubble deflected the missiles back towards the Kett ship, it would have had to be the equivalent of a flat armor panel on a tank. It takes MUCH more force to deflect it directly away that it would to divert the missile to miss your own ship. Now, I'm well aware that biotic barriers are not armor panels. But this is a large part of why this scene reads as unbelievable as it does. Deflecting the missiles a bit so they miss? Eh, implausible but within the bounds of suspension of belief. Deflecting them straight back (without detonating the warheads?) to the Kett ship? Yeah, that just goes beyond where I can suspend my disbelief and it's simply a "really? REALLY?" moment.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 18, 2017 2:48:23 GMT
We are not talking about deflecting or stopping missiles, though. We are talking about REFLECTING them back at the ship that fired them. Of couse the barrier did not send it back to the ship. The momentum of its own rockets did. And the only reason the missile hit the other ship because it was close....which it had to be to use the missiles in the first place. That's not how momentum works...
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Post by dreman999 on Apr 18, 2017 3:31:12 GMT
Of couse the barrier did not send it back to the ship. The momentum of its own rockets did. And the only reason the missile hit the other ship because it was close....which it had to be to use the missiles in the first place. That's not how momentum works... Yes it is. An object in a vacuum continues moving it's path untill it meet and equal or opposing force. it ether stops or turn. If the object is still projecting any force capable of momentum it and it meets a force that can turn it, it will not only turn but the force of the momentum it's generating keeps it moving in it new direction. So yes that is how momentum works.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 18, 2017 3:55:59 GMT
That's not how momentum works... Yes it is. An object in a vacuum continues moving it's path untill it meet and equal or opposing force. it ether stops or turn. If the object is still projecting any force capable of momentum it and it meets a force that can turn it, it will not only turn but the force of the momentum it's generating keeps it moving in it new direction. So yes that is how momentum works. Thus it will stop or be deflected, Not do a complete 180.
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Post by dreman999 on Apr 18, 2017 4:23:07 GMT
Yes it is. An object in a vacuum continues moving it's path untill it meet and equal or opposing force. it ether stops or turn. If the object is still projecting any force capable of momentum it and it meets a force that can turn it, it will not only turn but the force of the momentum it's generating keeps it moving in it new direction. So yes that is how momentum works. Thus it will stop or be deflected, Not do a complete 180. It was not a complete 180. Those missiles curved. Re watch the seen. Most of them missed and only 6 hit the ship.
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Post by dreman999 on Apr 18, 2017 4:26:31 GMT
I'll just say this and leave it here. Most main battle tanks have sloped armor for a reason: the higher the angle, the less force the armor absorbs to deflect incoming rounds. A flat surface is MUCH easier to penetrate than a sloped surface. The reason I bring this up: If the biotic bubble deflected the missiles back towards the Kett ship, it would have had to be the equivalent of a flat armor panel on a tank. It takes MUCH more force to deflect it directly away that it would to divert the missile to miss your own ship. Now, I'm well aware that biotic barriers are not armor panels. But this is a large part of why this scene reads as unbelievable as it does. Deflecting the missiles a bit so they miss? Eh, implausible but within the bounds of suspension of belief. Deflecting them straight back (without detonating the warheads?) to the Kett ship? Yeah, that just goes beyond where I can suspend my disbelief and it's simply a "really? REALLY?" moment. You do know missiles in mass effect are fired slow due to the fact they have tech that reduces there mass for higher impact?
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Post by VanSinn on Apr 18, 2017 5:02:54 GMT
I'll just say this and leave it here. Most main battle tanks have sloped armor for a reason: the higher the angle, the less force the armor absorbs to deflect incoming rounds. A flat surface is MUCH easier to penetrate than a sloped surface. The reason I bring this up: If the biotic bubble deflected the missiles back towards the Kett ship, it would have had to be the equivalent of a flat armor panel on a tank. It takes MUCH more force to deflect it directly away that it would to divert the missile to miss your own ship. Now, I'm well aware that biotic barriers are not armor panels. But this is a large part of why this scene reads as unbelievable as it does. Deflecting the missiles a bit so they miss? Eh, implausible but within the bounds of suspension of belief. Deflecting them straight back (without detonating the warheads?) to the Kett ship? Yeah, that just goes beyond where I can suspend my disbelief and it's simply a "really? REALLY?" moment. You do know missiles in mass effect are fired slow due to the fact they have tech that reduces there mass for higher impact? My point still stands. Turning them completely around takes much more force than it would for a slight "tap" to deflect them. If you don't see a problem with the scene, by all means, be you. I don't care one way or the other. To me, however, this simply just looks wrong, and I won't be convinced that it ISN'T wrong.
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Post by dreman999 on Apr 18, 2017 5:05:02 GMT
You do know missiles in mass effect are fired slow due to the fact they have tech that reduces there mass for higher impact? My point still stands. Turning them completely around takes much more force than it would for a slight "tap" to deflect them. If you don't see a problem with the scene, by all means, be you. I don't care one way or the other. To me, however, this simply just looks wrong, and I won't be convinced that it ISN'T wrong. But it's not a full 180. It's still a curve and out of all of them only 6 hit the kett ship out of the massive full volley.
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Post by VanSinn on Apr 18, 2017 6:17:01 GMT
My point still stands. Turning them completely around takes much more force than it would for a slight "tap" to deflect them. If you don't see a problem with the scene, by all means, be you. I don't care one way or the other. To me, however, this simply just looks wrong, and I won't be convinced that it ISN'T wrong. But it's not a full 180. It's still a curve and out of all of them only 6 hit the kett ship out of the massive full volley. And? You obviously don't see anything wrong there. I do. Let's leave it at that, ok?
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Post by iTz JoNeSy on Apr 18, 2017 6:51:20 GMT
Yeah, thanks for that - i Hadn't got to that mission yet, I really needed it spoiled. Well... It is 'spoilers discussion'. 🙈
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Post by Melcara on Apr 18, 2017 7:27:05 GMT
Sarissa is probably the strongest Asari biotic we have ever met in the game. She's helped by argueably the second strongest human biotic we've ever met, if not the strongest, whose skills have been honed by elite of the Asari commandos. The barrier last for maybe 30 seconds. Also, Sarissa has a SAM and is pathfinder. Given that SAM has full control over her physiology and that biotics is ultimately, lore wise, a physiological thing and we're quite possibly watching the strongest 2 biotics we've ever seen, I don't think it's that impossible. Where do people get that SAM is altering other Pathfinders? Talk to SAM about it, Alec added those protocols to Ryders SAM the others cant do that. That's right. Human Ark SAM is the most advanced one and the only one who can actually access the Pathfinder's physiology. So, the giant biotic field still seems ridiculous to me, especially since Jack, one of the most powerful biotics ever, had trouble maintaining even a normal barrier.
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Post by zipzap2000 on Apr 18, 2017 7:43:33 GMT
We are not talking about deflecting or stopping missiles, though. We are talking about REFLECTING them back at the ship that fired them. Of couse the barrier did not send it back to the ship. The momentum of its own rockets did. And the only reason the missile hit the other ship because it was close....which it had to be to use the missiles in the first place. This is incorrect and not what happens I'd encourage you to watch a video. The visuals depict a moment where missiles are exploding on the barrier THEN Sarissa and Cora give an extra push. The barrier changes and the missiles stop exploding and start flying back toward the Kett ship. Its not a fluke the rockets aren't piloting themselves its not momentum. Not sure if it got polished with the patch or not but it still looks silly.
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Post by Light on Apr 18, 2017 8:05:41 GMT
My point still stands. Turning them completely around takes much more force than it would for a slight "tap" to deflect them. If you don't see a problem with the scene, by all means, be you. I don't care one way or the other. To me, however, this simply just looks wrong, and I won't be convinced that it ISN'T wrong. But it's not a full 180. It's still a curve and out of all of them only 6 hit the kett ship out of the massive full volley. Wait your kidding, right? Think of a wheel. The top is 0 degrees and the bottom is 180 degrees. That semicircle is a full 180 degrees yet it is still a curve. That Kett ship is stationary relative to the Asari Arc. If a missile it shot hits it then it must curve a full 180 degrees or it would not hit.
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Post by dreman999 on Apr 18, 2017 8:24:18 GMT
But it's not a full 180. It's still a curve and out of all of them only 6 hit the kett ship out of the massive full volley. And? You obviously don't see anything wrong there. I do. Let's leave it at that, ok? And you also deem to forget seeing asari doing close to the same thing on thessia.
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Post by dreman999 on Apr 18, 2017 8:27:24 GMT
Of couse the barrier did not send it back to the ship. The momentum of its own rockets did. And the only reason the missile hit the other ship because it was close....which it had to be to use the missiles in the first place. This is incorrect and not what happens I'd encourage you to watch a video. The visuals depict a moment where missiles are exploding on the barrier THEN Sarissa and Cora give an extra push. The barrier changes and the missiles stop exploding and start flying back toward the Kett ship. Its not a fluke the rockets aren't piloting themselves its not momentum. Not sure if it got polished with the patch or not but it still looks silly. Dude, all of those missiles curved. Add out of that volley only 6 hit the kett ship. That's a defection. Some how the population just stop working? You do see that their still a trail going , right?
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Post by dreman999 on Apr 18, 2017 8:36:29 GMT
But it's not a full 180. It's still a curve and out of all of them only 6 hit the kett ship out of the massive full volley. Wait your kidding, right? Think of a wheel. The top is 0 degrees and the bottom is 180 degrees. That semicircle is a full 180 degrees yet it is still a curve. That Kett ship is stationary relative to the Asari Arc. If a missile it shot hits it then it must curve a full 180 degrees or it would not hit. i don't think you under stand what we mean by 180. That's a full turn around. and a semicircle is no a full 180. It would a full direct turn around. Added out of the volly only 6 hit the kett ship. Kett shot up to 26 missile.(yes I did go back and count.) 4 blew up on the barrier in total. and the rest were deflected. Out of that 26 ONLY SIX hit the kett ship. How is the a 180?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2017 8:59:49 GMT
Gameplay-wise, we've used biotics to lift, pull, and hurl things and create mass effect fields. Mass relays are capable of creating mass-free corridors that can allow spaceships to travel millions (?) of LY instantaneously. Eezo powered ship drives create fields that reduce the mass of starships to (near?) zero. There are quite a few ways that a mass effect field can be used, and biotics are able to generate them.
I don't really know whether mass would be a factor, since this scenario presumably took place outside of atmo and gravity.
Shrug.
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February 2017
psychevore
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Psychevore on Apr 18, 2017 9:31:25 GMT
Sarissa is probably the strongest Asari biotic we have ever met in the game. She's helped by argueably the second strongest human biotic we've ever met, if not the strongest, whose skills have been honed by elite of the Asari commandos. The barrier last for maybe 30 seconds. Also, Sarissa has a SAM and is pathfinder. Given that SAM has full control over her physiology and that biotics is ultimately, lore wise, a physiological thing and we're quite possibly watching the strongest 2 biotics we've ever seen, I don't think it's that impossible. Where do people get that SAM is altering other Pathfinders? Talk to SAM about it, Alec added those protocols to Ryders SAM the others cant do that. What I understood from that is that the Human pathfinder's SAM is the only SAM that gives the pathfinder profiles. i.e. the story reason for the gameplay ability of changing abilities and passives on the fly. But you might be right.
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