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Post by VanSinn on Apr 27, 2017 22:09:38 GMT
You must have some privileged life then. Either that or have not played a really bad game before. I've played a lot of games, and perhaps more importantly, read a lot of books... I don't think some people have done the latter and can tell the difference between something that is well written, versus hot garbage a la Andromeda. It sounds snobbish, but I still think there's a divide between people who have a university education and have written and read pages upon pages of content, and those that have basically a high school education. The latter won't see any of the dialogue and story flaws of Andromeda. Like Trump, Bioware loves the poorly educated. For someone claiming to have a university education, you sure don't seem to understand what an "appeal to authority" logical fallacy is. Level of education has little to no bearing on whether or not a person has read enough or written enough to know "bad writing."
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The path up and down are one and the same.
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Post by kino on Apr 27, 2017 22:14:48 GMT
You must have some privileged life then. Either that or have not played a really bad game before. It sounds snobbish, but I still think there's a divide between people who have a university education and have written and read pages upon pages of content, and those that have basically a high school education. The latter won't see any of the dialogue and story flaws of Andromeda. Like Trump, Bioware loves the poorly educated. That's such an incredibly ignorant statement it's hilarious.
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linksocarina
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Always teacher, sometimes writer
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Post by linksocarina on Apr 27, 2017 22:17:55 GMT
You must have some privileged life then. Either that or have not played a really bad game before. I've played a lot of games, and perhaps more importantly, read a lot of books... I don't think some people have done the latter and can tell the difference between something that is well written, versus hot garbage a la Andromeda. It sounds snobbish, but I still think there's a divide between people who have a university education and have written and read pages upon pages of content, and those that have basically a high school education. The latter won't see any of the dialogue and story flaws of Andromeda. Like Trump, Bioware loves the poorly educated. What you are doing is not sophisticated though. What you determine to be good or bad in terms of narrative prose is always a subjective stance. Even among actual professors. Your level of education is irrelevant to the fact of the matter. To be honest, reading a lot of books means little because a lot of good books are poorly written. To stick to the genre for a moment, Isaac Asimov's Foundation is riddled with a lot of plot holes world building inaccuracies, mostly due to it's short story structure and for a lot of people, being dull as hell. It's also presumptuous of those saying there are no flaws in the game overall when it comes to tone, characterization, the three act structure, and other bits. It a question of degrees of it; people cherry picked the worst line readings and moments from the game already, but what is always ignored is the good moments that accompany the bad. And it is fair to say that all the Mass Effect games have this problem; the difference though is really simple: Andromeda's tone and cloud-soft handling of the simple narrative/world building was more likely the turn off, versus the actual writing itself. If there is one flaw the writing has for sure it is the tone, but whether or not people like that tone is much more subjective vs objective. To say it's an objective truth on such things is not even snobbish, it's ignorance.
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dm04
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Post by dm04 on Apr 27, 2017 22:34:27 GMT
They screwed up the ending... The other 99% of the writing was very good. In Andromeda, 99% of the writing is shit - so your comparison doesn't work for me. We're on very different wavelengths here that will never be bridged. They screwed up more than the ending, be real for just 5 minutes and admit that. "We fight or we die" "Go to the Citadel, the fight is here" said my Spacer Shepard to Anderson without my input. Mass Effect 3 is a huge mixed bag. It does have brilliant moments, but those spawned from what happened in the previous games, not what Mass Effect 3 set out to do. Andromeda is certainly not anything groundbreaking either, but atleast Ryder was a set protag from the get go, they didn't transform him or her in the latest entries of a trilogy. You praising the trilogy like that and claiming Andromeda is pure crap makes it impossible to even discuss. You've made up your mind and thats that. The "writing" problem is not about the text, noone ever said "MEOT is the new Lord of the Ring" (or inser some other or your favorite books). And it is not even about the plotholes. - there are too many continuity and consistency errors - there are too many situations that make no f.... sense - the pacing is bad - the delivery is bad - the narrative is bad - way too many dialogue options are inappropriate for the situation - way too many dialogue options (wheel text) do not match the lines delivered - and well... some aspects are underdeveloped (colonization) The basic story (groundwork) is just about fine, nothing that would win the literature nobel prize, but MEOT wasnt any better.
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Post by KaiserShep on Apr 27, 2017 22:50:42 GMT
You must have some privileged life then. Either that or have not played a really bad game before. I've played a lot of games, and perhaps more importantly, read a lot of books... I don't think some people have done the latter and can tell the difference between something that is well written, versus hot garbage a la Andromeda. It sounds snobbish, but I still think there's a divide between people who have a university education and have written and read pages upon pages of content, and those that have basically a high school education. The latter won't see any of the dialogue and story flaws of Andromeda. Like Trump, Bioware loves the poorly educated.
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Post by kotoreffect3 on Apr 27, 2017 22:52:18 GMT
Unfortunately there seems to be an anti-bioware culture online at the moment so anything they do they get hammered for. This seems to apply double for ME. I know DA gets hammered to from time to time by haters but ME seems to get it doubley hard. Take this business with the animations if it had been any other franchise from any other developer that had wonky animations or a poorly done CC they would not have gotten bashed and memed nearly as hard. Yes there would have been some but not to this extent. I have always hated the memesters. With ME there are haters out there actively trying to get the franchise shut down. As a fan of space operas in general this pisses me off since we ME fans don't have a whole lot of alternatives when it comes to space games and none that I can think of when it comes to RPGs. If something were to happen to DA as much as it would suck there are at least other fantasy alternatives. We ME fans have none.
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Post by Terminator Force on Apr 27, 2017 22:59:15 GMT
I don't follow your logic. When a surgeon messes up on a procedure they've done a thousand times before, they will not lose their job. Again these are writers that wrote a story you don't like and therefore you want them fired? Your logic is flawed. It is rather the leadership that failed to guide them and have a certain vision of what they wanted to accomplish. Team is full of new hires - they haven't done it before. They have no proven track recored (fanfiction doesn't count)... If a surgeon fucks up badly enough - say he/she cuts off the wrong persons leg, I'm pretty sure he's going to be fired. Andromedas writers just happened to cut off an arm and a leg, and threw in a vasectomy while they were at it. But doctors and surgeons get away with murder every day. There's a reason death by malpractice isn't ever listed on your death certificate.
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Post by colfoley on Apr 27, 2017 23:10:50 GMT
So I recently finished Andromeda. I really liked Andromeda. Bioware has been a tale of two games recently. DAI was a game i personally really liked, it was critically acclaimed and financially successful, to the tune of being called the fastest selling launch in Bioware history. Yet it was a game with repetitive meaningless fetch quests, a huge disconnect between story and optional content, and occasionally lifeless open zones. Now Andromeda has been a game that has been critically panned, general perceptions on the forum aren't strong, at least compared to Inquisition, and may even be a financial failure. Yet its a game that had far more effort put into its side quests. They were often fully fleshed out stories or part of a larger story arc. It would be.so easy for bioware...and especially ea...to go backwards. To say'gamers must prefer repetitive fetch quests to story content given how they feel about Andromeda. But yey that means less money. 'And i don't want bioware to go backwards after all the lessons they have learned. Going by MEA, what are those lessons? deeper side quests which had plot, character moments, generally a plot twist or two, and a decision at the end. And a fully integrated game where the 'open zones' was tied to the plot and pretty much every planet had some connection to the main story. Ie a reason to go there. Maybe the better dialogue wheel too.
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Post by Geitenneuker on Apr 27, 2017 23:15:05 GMT
Personally, I fear many of the policies in place in the European Union.
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Post by Terminator Force on Apr 27, 2017 23:15:30 GMT
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Post by colfoley on Apr 27, 2017 23:16:27 GMT
This crap comparing people who like trump to people who like Andromeda really needs to stop. As someone who IS college educated and has taken a great deal of time studying game design and writing design in general (though not in a college class...yet) i really enjoyed the game and think Andromeda has the strongest plot of any ME game yet. Maybe not bw game...but me game.
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Post by KaiserShep on Apr 27, 2017 23:22:00 GMT
This crap comparing people who like trump to people who like Andromeda really needs to stop. As someone who IS college educated and has taken a great deal of time studying game design and writing design in general (though not in a college class...yet) i really enjoyed the game and think Andromeda has the strongest plot of any ME game yet. Maybe not bw game...but me game. O rly? That's diploma-mill talk, son. Next you'll be saying that The Room would make David Lynch die of envy, come back to life, and die again. Cats and dogs would live together. Mass hysteria.
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Post by suikoden on Apr 27, 2017 23:41:30 GMT
It sounds snobbish, but I still think there's a divide between people who have a university education and have written and read pages upon pages of content, and those that have basically a high school education. The latter won't see any of the dialogue and story flaws of Andromeda. Like Trump, Bioware loves the poorly educated. That's such an incredibly ignorant statement it's hilarious. There's a reason why red states vote Trump - theyre poorly educated (largely due to religion). There's a reason why the majority - not all - of Andromedas supporters love the game - I suspect theyre poorly educated. They are unable to think critically. That's my stance, I don't care if you think it's ignorant. I think anyone who loves this game is being incredibly ignorant.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2017 23:50:15 GMT
That's such an incredibly ignorant statement it's hilarious. There's a reason why red states vote Trump - theyre poorly educated (largely due to religion). There's a reason why the majority - not all - of Andromedas supporters love the game - I suspect theyre poorly educated. They are unable to think critically. That's my stance, I don't care if you think it's ignorant. I think anyone who loves this game is being incredibly ignorant. ... or maybe they just consider it to be mindless entertainment. ... or maybe they've learned to accept mass media entertainment in spite of its flaws. ... or maybe their tastes are different from yours. I've seen a lot of people indicate that they enjoy the game. I don't believe I've ever seen anyone suggest that it's some sort of flawless literary masterpiece.
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Post by linksocarina on Apr 27, 2017 23:51:58 GMT
That's such an incredibly ignorant statement it's hilarious. There's a reason why red states vote Trump - theyre poorly educated (largely due to religion). There's a reason why the majority - not all - of Andromedas supporters love the game - I suspect theyre poorly educated. They are unable to think critically. That's my stance, I don't care if you think it's ignorant. I think anyone who loves this game is being incredibly ignorant. So long as you don't mind people judge you for how foolish you are then...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2017 23:53:49 GMT
That's such an incredibly ignorant statement it's hilarious. There's a reason why red states vote Trump - theyre poorly educated (largely due to religion). There's a reason why the majority - not all - of Andromedas supporters love the game - I suspect theyre poorly educated. They are unable to think critically. That's my stance, I don't care if you think it's ignorant. I think anyone who loves this game is being incredibly ignorant. I have to throw my degree in the trash now. I am clearly uneducated as i actually think Andromeda is a good game. Thank you so much for opening my eyes to the truth!
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The path up and down are one and the same.
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Post by kino on Apr 28, 2017 0:16:28 GMT
That's such an incredibly ignorant statement it's hilarious. There's a reason why red states vote Trump - theyre poorly educated (largely due to religion). There's a reason why the majority - not all - of Andromedas supporters love the game - I suspect theyre poorly educated. They are unable to think critically. That's my stance, I don't care if you think it's ignorant. I think anyone who loves this game is being incredibly ignorant. As I said, hilarious. I think the assumption that everyone should think like you is presumptuous and, still, ignorant. But, fuck it, you do you.
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Post by kino on Apr 28, 2017 0:18:10 GMT
There's a reason why red states vote Trump - theyre poorly educated (largely due to religion). There's a reason why the majority - not all - of Andromedas supporters love the game - I suspect theyre poorly educated. They are unable to think critically. That's my stance, I don't care if you think it's ignorant. I think anyone who loves this game is being incredibly ignorant. I have to throw my degree in the trash now. I am clearly uneducated as i actually think Andromeda is a good game. Thank you so much for opening my eyes to the truth! Yeah, I feel you. I must now burn my degree because, obviously, it's a lie. Oh, and my library...which makes me sad.
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Post by suikoden on Apr 28, 2017 0:36:51 GMT
There's a reason why red states vote Trump - theyre poorly educated (largely due to religion). There's a reason why the majority - not all - of Andromedas supporters love the game - I suspect theyre poorly educated. They are unable to think critically. That's my stance, I don't care if you think it's ignorant. I think anyone who loves this game is being incredibly ignorant. ... or maybe they just consider it to be mindless entertainment. ... or maybe they've learned to accept mass media entertainment in spite of its flaws. ... or maybe their tastes are different from yours. I've seen a lot of people indicate that they enjoy the game. I don't believe I've ever seen anyone suggest that it's some sort of flawless literary masterpiece. I think there's a difference between being able to discern quality and/or the lack of quality of something, look past it, and enjoy that something regardless of its merit - and being unable to do so - all the while genuinely enjoying said something because you don't know any better. I'd liken Andromeda to the example in this article, where someone put eyeglasses on the floor of a museum which were then thought to be art by some in attendance, and enjoyed, accordingly. And then there are people who instead of taking pictures of these eyeglasses, are taking pictures of the people taking pictures of eyeglasses. These latter people will never be able to convince the former that what they are looking at is not art - just like reviewers that gave this game a 5/10 will be able to convince you that the game is objectively bad. Both camps are largely set in their ways - but the person who objectively thinks the eyeglasses are in fact art, are more likely to be convinced they are wrong once they a) better educate themselves. Or you could just have bad taste. dangerousminds.net/comments/someone_put_eyeglasses_on_a_museum_floor_people_thought_it_was_art
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Post by KaiserShep on Apr 28, 2017 0:48:57 GMT
That's such an incredibly ignorant statement it's hilarious. There's a reason why red states vote Trump - theyre poorly educated (largely due to religion). There's a reason why the majority - not all - of Andromedas supporters love the game - I suspect theyre poorly educated. They are unable to think critically. That's my stance, I don't care if you think it's ignorant. I think anyone who loves this game is being incredibly ignorant. I have to say that this is one of the better troll attempts. Not quite the Empire Strikes Back to your previous efforts, but solid all around. ***
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Post by suikoden on Apr 28, 2017 0:50:19 GMT
There's a reason why red states vote Trump - theyre poorly educated (largely due to religion). There's a reason why the majority - not all - of Andromedas supporters love the game - I suspect theyre poorly educated. They are unable to think critically. That's my stance, I don't care if you think it's ignorant. I think anyone who loves this game is being incredibly ignorant. I have to say that this is one of the better troll attempts. Not quite the Empire Strikes Back to your previous efforts, but solid all around. *** Read my next one it's even better
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Post by KaiserShep on Apr 28, 2017 0:54:38 GMT
Always good to see someone who loves their work.
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Post by Cyberstrike on Apr 28, 2017 1:08:08 GMT
The one point I will concede is that ME:A is not actually that bad all told. It slipped up in some major areas like presentation (most notably facial animations etc) and the main story is atrociously poor. Yet in many ways, it does what DAI tried to do and improves it across the board. The Nomad is fun to drive, the banter is good, the sidequests have more substance to them and the terraforming aspect gives you a legitimate reason to be there doing any of this. And yet, it still pales next to the older games, because the tone is too light throughout and the narrative though strong at first with the need to colonize and rescue the project, never develops into something more meaningful, due to the woeful sub Halo style story with the dreary Remnant and Kett. The cast are unfairly maligned IMO, but they needed greater drama both from outside menaces and internal, rather than just being happy campers all the time. MEA does a lot of things right, and those decrying the loss of the past would do well to remember that the formula was getting stale and if experiments like DA2, DAI and MEA don't get everything right, they are at least trying. To that end, I prefer MEA to ME3 which felt tired and unambitious in its dogmatic adherence to old formula. But there is plenty still to do. The game has shot itself in the foot with a very dull campaign and any dlc or sequel must provide a more credible and sensible story than the hokey antics of the Archon and his cronies. We need real intensity, real suffering, triumph over genuine adversity etc. And we absolutely do not need Cerberus or the Reapers. New series remember? This was a very wobbly start, but if Star Trek had stopped making movies with The Motion Picture, we'd never have got Wrath of Khan. Think about that - a world where WOK was never made... Can we afford to let this series end so soon and let something like that happen? I actually like the lighter and more fun tone of the game especially coming after a MAJOR war story (which is what ME3 is a war story). Other than Liam and maybe Jaal I found much of the new cast a lot of fun and each his or her own personal reasons for being there and not because it's "war and I want to be with Shepard". ME:A is taking the same path that Star Trek: The Next Generation took move the franchise further into the future and change the setting where needed and the first season and half of the second seasons of TNG was a trainwreck of a show, once they figured out the show the show became it's own series. BioWare needs to follow that example.
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Post by marshalmoriarty on Apr 28, 2017 1:29:42 GMT
I was fine with the lighter tone for a while, and the need to colonize and get the project back on track was ample motivation for me. But I was worried that the little I had seen of the Archon and main plot at the start was entirely underwhelming, so I was unsure how healthy it was to be actively trying to postpone having that story strand continue. And sure enough, I thought all the Archon's missions were poor, and tried too hard for the 'look how evil they are' shenanigans.
I agree that not every game needs to be all out war, just as I don't have a beef with Ryder for simply not being Sheperd. Its good that they are identifiably different, and I quickly warmed to Fem Ryder's fun loving, sassy enthusiasm. But that's not really enough for a whole game, so I did want to see it develop into something greater. And what we got on that was dispiritingly mediocre. It never got the blood pumping and\or gave me the rollicking thrills of Liam's LM for example. It all felt rushed and basically the kind of main plot Bethesda come up with that feels like an afterthought.
There were moments of genuine steel under the soft exterior though. I thought the resolution to the Sloane\Charlatan arc was excellent, in a 'I never said I was a hero' kind of way. I just wish they'd cut out the attempts to shock with the surgery deaths and silly exultation goings on. It was lame in ME2 with the melting colonists to make Robo Kong and its just as cartoonish here.
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Post by colfoley on Apr 28, 2017 1:34:03 GMT
I was fine with the lighter tone for a while, and the need to colonize and get the project back on track was ample motivation for me. But I was worried that the little I had seen of the Archon and main plot at the start was entirely underwhelming, so I was unsure how healthy it was to be actively trying to postpone having that story strand continue. And sure enough, I thought all the Archon's missions were poor, and tried too hard for the 'look how evil they are' shenanigans. I agree that not every game needs to be all out war, just as I don't have a beef with Ryder for simply not being Sheperd. Its good that they are identifiably different, and I quickly warmed to Fem Ryder's fun loving, sassy enthusiasm. But that's not really enough for a whole game, so I did want to see it develop into something greater. And what we got on that was dispiritingly mediocre. It never got the blood pumping and\or gave me the rollicking thrills of Liam's LM for example. It all felt rushed and basically the kind of main plot Bethesda come up with that feels like an afterthought. There were moments of genuine steel under the soft exterior though. I thought the resolution to the Sloane\Charlatan arc was excellent, in a 'I never said I was a hero' kind of way. I just wish they'd cut out the attempts to shock with the surgery deaths and silly exultation goings on. It was lame in ME2 with the melting colonists to make Robo Kong and its just as cartoonish here. i think it's will develop into something down the road. The kett are just a gateway drug. Maybe even the archon is to a much more layered and complicated foe.
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