timebean
N3
It's just a game, folks...
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It's just a game, folks...
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Post by timebean on May 3, 2017 13:48:34 GMT
They played it safe. That is ultimately the problem. I tend not to watch video reviews- personal reasons- but are we talking about the same game that tried to radically reinvent core narrative, plot, and gameplay mechanics for the franchise from the ground up? There's a lot of words I could use for MEA, but 'safe' is not one of them. They took a lot of risks- with open world design, with combat, with overhauling dialogue away from a previously iconic morality system, with a partially defined protagonist defined by character rather than just a role- that were in no way guaranteed to pay off. And these are pretty fundamental changes to make- the very roots of how the story decides to present themes, ideas, and gameplay. You can say that Dragon Age already made an attempt at them, sure, but this isn't the Dragon Age team and these are changes for Mass Effect. None of them were guaranteed to work out out well, especially the choice of how to partially define the player character into something closer to Paragon Geralt than could-be-saint-could-be-devil The Warden. Equivocating the Kett and the Reapers just because they both 'steal genes' seems daftly reductionist to me. It confuses means for methods. For the first parts of the trilogy, the Reapers were quasi-Lovecraftian forces of nature, beyond our comprehension. The Kett area quasi-theocratic eugenocracy, a civilization a little more advanced than us in some ways and a bit less in others. 'Lovecraftian horror' and 'evil empire' are completely different narrative devices, and are about as identical 'because they steal genes' as Geth and Remnant 'because they are robots.' There's plenty of criticism of Andromeda to go around, but 'didn't try new things,' or 'didn't try old things in new ways,' isn't one of them. A very good point. I really did appreciate the them trying some new things, especially adding verticality in the gameplay. Agree with this as well - I don't think equivocating the geth and remnant is fair AT ALL. They are two totally different kinds of 'robots' with a completely different role in the stories (although...well, it might be possible to argue that they fulfilled a very similar role in ME1 versus MEA). The Kett and Collectors....eh...I don't know. It's pretty damned close. "They turn us into them!". Bout as new as "Soilent Green is people!!". Even the reveal of this fact in the games (exploring an enemy ship for clues, exploring an enemy base for clues) was designed very similarly. Still, the novelty of this could be argued. I appreciated the hint of a religious imperative in the Kett...which is pretty new for ME games (and in it's own way, could be considered a little Lovecraftian...but that could just be my abject horror of religious stuff!! ). But overall, I really think they could have pushed the envelope a little. I mean, even Star Trek, which was maximum cheese, had some neat aliens throughout the years. For example - the species from Voyager that stole organs, because they suffered from the Phage and it was the only way to keep their people alive? A truly scary (and gruesome), but pitiable, enemy. In a video game context, how would you deal with this enemy? Would you run around trying to find a way to help them cure the Phage, or give them technological improvements to help them live until they found a cure? Or would you kill them all? It's these types of moral quagmires that can push the boundaries in video game story-telling. They could have had a more morally grey angara and kett, but instead we have good versus bad. It's just a little boring. Even the resistance/roakkar storyline was a bit too easy. Just a wee nerdy side note - in terms of a Lovecraftian, seeming unbeatable enemy in the context of a story that ALSO has diverse groups of folk with different motivations and internal struggles (religion, magic, science, politics), etc...nothing beats Barabara Hambley's Darwath Triology...and that was written in the 70s!!! Totally mixes the two types of storytelling you mentioned.
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brad2240
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Post by brad2240 on May 3, 2017 13:50:38 GMT
To clarify my post: I'm not talking about old BW vs. new BW, giving them a pass, or blaming EA for anything. When I ask "can they?" it's an honest question. I don't know the details of a developer-publisher relationship, I don't know if Mass Effect: Andromeda is exactly the game BW always wanted to make or not. Maybe EA was completely hands off, or maybe they're like certain movie studios that have to have their hands in every project and don't know when to leave well enough alone. I simply don't know.
My post was intended to ask a question, not pass judgment. I apologize if I didn't make it clear enough.
If EA is involved it is probably at a high level. "We think multiplayer will appeal to larger group of players, and it will generate income from micro transactions", "Based of the public success of open world games recently, the game should be open world." Obviously they would control the release schedule as well. However, I highly doubt they would acquire what is basically the RPG arm of the company and then micromanage them when it comes to things like the story, characters, level design, UI, quest design, etc. EA could had given them an extra year, and though the game would be more polished, it would still be the same at its core.
You are most probably right. Thank you for the response.
I don't know if they will ever turn into more than just a simple evil, unlike the Geth. I'm not sure how I feel about that statement. I liked what they did with Legion in ME2 but I think the handling of the Geth in ME3 was one of the low points of the trilogy. I think I would rather the Kett remain simple and generic, an enemy to easily be disliked, than go through the heavy-handed "we're not really bad" stuff again. The Kett need a really compelling leader as an antagonist. The Archon could have gotten there, maybe if he'd been a little more present in the game. I have hopes that the Primus or whoever is next has a little more Saren or Loghain in them.
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Post by FeralEwok on May 3, 2017 14:33:05 GMT
'Lovecraftian horror' and 'evil empire' are completely different narrative devices, and are about as identical 'because they steal genes' as Geth and Remnant 'because they are robots.' Agree with this as well - I don't think equivocating the geth and remnant is fair AT ALL. They are two totally different kinds of 'robots' with a completely different role in the stories (although...well, it might be possible to argue that they fulfilled a very similar role in ME1 versus MEA). The Kett and Collectors....eh...I don't know. It's pretty damned close. "They turn us into them!". Bout as new as "Soilent Green is people!!". Even the reveal of this fact in the games (exploring an enemy ship for clues, exploring an enemy base for clues) was designed very similarly. Still, the novelty of this could be argued. I appreciated the hint of a religious imperative in the Kett...which is pretty new for ME games (and in it's own way, could be considered a little Lovecraftian...but that could just be my abject horror of religious stuff!! ). I do agree with the both of you The various enemies in Bioware games have different designs, different backgrounds, and different methodology/reasoning, but there is something to be said about too much similarity. Namely most Bioware games have an enemy that is primarily about conversion. The Reapers = change organics into synth/organic hybrid monsters. The Kett = Eugenics advocates that demand we become one of them. The Collectors = Already Reaperized bugs that are abducting humans to convert them into a Reaper. The Qunari = All must submit to the Qun and become one of them. The Darkspawn = Everything they come into contact with becomes blighted or converted into more Darkspawn. The Fade Demons = (this one is stretching I'll admit) but they want to turn our world into theirs The Sith = So many of the enemies in Kotor are converted Jedi and republic soldiers The execution makes a huge difference in making the enemies feel different or fresh in a new Bioware game, but the majority of them involve in one way or another capturing our identity and turning us into one of them or against our allies. Rarely do we see enemies in their games that are our enemies that mirror something realistic like political differences, border disputes, resource wars etc.
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taliefer
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Post by taliefer on May 3, 2017 15:29:06 GMT
I agree with alot of what the video said.
i actually really enjoyed the game, but i do feel it lacked any kind of "punch" with the story and felt routine. there was no Virmire moment, or anything remotely close. the game felt safe and uninspired.
what it did do is set a foundation for which they could really explore some new stuff with DLC and/or future sequels. i just dont know why they felt they had to play it so close to the vest with this one.
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Post by Kappa Neko on May 3, 2017 15:57:24 GMT
Agree with this as well - I don't think equivocating the geth and remnant is fair AT ALL. They are two totally different kinds of 'robots' with a completely different role in the stories (although...well, it might be possible to argue that they fulfilled a very similar role in ME1 versus MEA). The Kett and Collectors....eh...I don't know. It's pretty damned close. "They turn us into them!". Bout as new as "Soilent Green is people!!". Even the reveal of this fact in the games (exploring an enemy ship for clues, exploring an enemy base for clues) was designed very similarly. Still, the novelty of this could be argued. I appreciated the hint of a religious imperative in the Kett...which is pretty new for ME games (and in it's own way, could be considered a little Lovecraftian...but that could just be my abject horror of religious stuff!! ). I do agree with the both of you The various enemies in Bioware games have different designs, different backgrounds, and different methodology/reasoning, but there is something to be said about too much similarity. Namely most Bioware games have an enemy that is primarily about conversion. The Reapers = change organics into synth/organic hybrid monsters. The Kett = Eugenics advocates that demand we become one of them. The Collectors = Already Reaperized bugs that are abducting humans to convert them into a Reaper. The Qunari = All must submit to the Qun and become one of them. The Darkspawn = Everything they come into contact with becomes blighted or converted into more Darkspawn. The Fade Demons = (this one is stretching I'll admit) but they want to turn our world into theirs The Sith = So many of the enemies in Kotor are converted Jedi and republic soldiers The execution makes a huge difference in making the enemies feel different or fresh in a new Bioware game, but the majority of them involve in one way or another capturing our identity and turning us into one of them or against our allies. Rarely do we see enemies in their games that are our enemies that mirror something realistic like political differences, border disputes, resource wars etc. Yes all Bioware games of the past ten years are tales of collective effort while maintaining individuality. The bad guys always want to take that away, turn everyone into the same. Bioware celebrates differences. The crucible was the biggest symbol of Bioware's narrative ideology. Different cultures/talents strengthen the group, make it smarter. Bioware broke this down to the genetic level in a questionable scene about humanity's outstanding DNA... This fear of dissolving into a mindless (evil) collective is a very western concept, I would say. On the other hand, Bioware seem to be big fans of Jung's idea of the Collective Unconscious, a POSITIVE link between all people. These two opposing ideas of the collective are the basis for Dragon Age. The "song" of the ancient elves was beautiful, harmonious. Then it got corrupted and turned into a threat. Of course it's also a kind of Garden Eden allegory. Indoctrination and the blight are very similar. But Dragon Age actually features a lot of politics, racism and a bit of sexism. Both franchises reflect upon reality, especially racial and religious ideologies. Mass Effect was a bit more abstract, perhaps. But both franchises are roughly about the same thing. I mean, Solas is basically the new reapers... It's true though that some of the more basic human motivations are not being explored all that much. Something like starvation/ resource wars, as you say. It's the most logical path for a setting like MEA has. DA2 came closest to that. Hawke's motivations were about naked survival at first. It was a nice change from the usual. When two groups just want to survive, want their families to live, then there's a real moral dilemma if both are treated as equally deserving. This also works for decisions regarding your own people as Virmire showed. Two good people, one has to die. Mustache twirling villains and their mindless army pose no moral conflict.
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FeralEwok
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Post by FeralEwok on May 3, 2017 16:08:51 GMT
When two groups just want to survive, want their families to live, then there's a real moral dilemma if both are treated as equally deserving. This also works for decisions regarding your own people as Virmire showed. Two good people, one has to die. Mustache twirling villains and their mindless army pose no moral conflict. This is what I wanted out of Andromeda really. This was a harder decision than anything I had to do in Andromeda.
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on May 3, 2017 16:27:28 GMT
Bioware celebrates differences. The crucible was the biggest symbol of Bioware's narrative ideology. Different cultures/talents strengthen the group, make it smarter. Bioware broke this down to the genetic level in a questionable scene about humanity's outstanding DNA... This fear of dissolving into a mindless (evil) collective is a very western concept, I would say. On the other hand, Bioware seem to be big fans of Jung's idea of the Collective Unconscious, a POSITIVE link between all people. *tries to e silent. Struggles, struggles, fails* "I fight for freedom. Mine, and everyone's. I fight for the right to choose our own fate. And if I die, then I'll die knowing I did everything I could to stop you. And I'll die free" "SO BE IT!!!! The cycle continues"
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2017 16:29:57 GMT
When two groups just want to survive, want their families to live, then there's a real moral dilemma if both are treated as equally deserving. This also works for decisions regarding your own people as Virmire showed. Two good people, one has to die. Mustache twirling villains and their mindless army pose no moral conflict. This is what I wanted out of Andromeda really. This was a harder decision than anything I had to do in Andromeda. You gave some to Clem and Duck, right? RIGHT!?
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timebean
N3
It's just a game, folks...
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It's just a game, folks...
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Post by timebean on May 3, 2017 16:30:08 GMT
When two groups just want to survive, want their families to live, then there's a real moral dilemma if both are treated as equally deserving. This also works for decisions regarding your own people as Virmire showed. Two good people, one has to die. Mustache twirling villains and their mindless army pose no moral conflict. This is what I wanted out of Andromeda really. This was a harder decision than anything I had to do in Andromeda. Gah! I remember that. I went the two kids first on that one. But the final piece of food...use it for political gain in the group (to gain favor) or use it on who needs it most (which is hard to determine) or eat it yourself (cause you need strength to protect the others)? Such a hard choice!!!! That type of stuff made me love Bioware in the first place (and was so well done in DAO). Free the scumbag noble (cause his vote is important in the Landsmeet) or let him rot (cause he basically raped your family members). Let Logahin die a noble death and keep you and your lover alive (but this means your lover hates you) or let one of you die (cause you are wardens after all) or let Morrigan do her thang (which means she has a son that could have claim on the throne and access to a 'god's soul). All shades of grey. Loved it. Edited to add - there was a reality show at one time that had folks living off the land in Alaska (a really great survival show with a group of guys and gals). They had limited food access and had to hunt, etc. They had one guy who was really big and strong, a good hunter, who could carry alot of equipment. When it came time to divide their meager food, they opted to divide it equally. The other option would have been to give the large guy a little more food because he had a higher caloric need and burned more calories with his extra work. Long story short, their 'diplomatic' choices meant that the guy had to quit and be helicoptered out They lost his muscle, his ability o carry more items, and his hunting skills. Being nice is not always the smartest thing, in the end. And that was real (well...reality-TV "real", anyway)
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Post by KaiserShep on May 3, 2017 16:47:24 GMT
This is what I wanted out of Andromeda really. This was a harder decision than anything I had to do in Andromeda. You gave some to Clem and Duck, right? RIGHT!? Anyone who didn't is literally worse than the reapers.
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Post by FeralEwok on May 3, 2017 16:53:41 GMT
You gave some to Clem and Duck, right? RIGHT!? Anyone who didn't is literally worse than the reapers. I always give those two food first. I can't do a Scumbag Lee playthrough. I've tried different variations with the remaining two pieces of food that would appear diplomatic or strategic but like most choices in that series you'll end up pissing off everyone anyway somehow someway.
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Post by themikefest on May 3, 2017 16:53:55 GMT
*tries to e silent. Struggles, struggles, fails* "I fight for freedom. Mine, and everyone's. I fight for the right to choose our own fate. And if I die, then I'll die knowing I did everything I could to stop you. And I'll die free" "SO BE IT!!!! The cycle continues" Then a second later, Commander dumba** realizes he/she should have picked an ending, runs towards the thing crying like a little baby asking for a 2nd chance
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Post by griffith82 on May 3, 2017 17:03:36 GMT
I was going to ask if he's related to Ricky Gervais then I heard him speak.
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FeralEwok
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Post by FeralEwok on May 3, 2017 17:08:54 GMT
Gah! I remember that. I went the two kids first on that one. But the final piece of food...use it for political gain in the group (to gain favor) or use it on who needs it most (which is hard to determine) or eat it yourself (cause you need strength to protect the others)? Such a hard choice!!!! That type of stuff made me love Bioware in the first place (and was so well done in DAO). Free the scumbag noble (cause his vote is important in the Landsmeet) or let him rot (cause he basically raped your family members). Let Logahin die a noble death and keep you and your lover alive (but this means your lover hates you) or let one of you die (cause you are wardens after all) or let Morrigan do her thang (which means she has a son that could have claim on the throne and access to a 'god's soul). All shades of grey. Loved it. DA:O is one of the only Bioware games that really made me question my decisions frequently. Mass Effect is my favorite of the two franchises but I still think Origins beats out any of the ME games when it comes to tough choices or dealing with indirect consequences of said choices. I liked the Renegade/Paragon tone of Shepard's dialogue and it helps sell that character, but I thought most of the big moment choices were a little too binary good/bad with the game doing a lot to tell you which one you should be pick.
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Post by Kappa Neko on May 3, 2017 17:09:45 GMT
Bethesda's reputation has started to crack with FO4. Sort of unrelated to topic, but wasn't FO4 quite favored by reviews and was financial success? I believe so. I was more thinking about how I've heard many fans cry about how FO4 lost everything that used to be great about that franchise, accusing Bethesda of dumbing the gameplay down for the casual shooter crowd. Castrated RPG elements. Kind of similar to what Bioware heard about ME2 and 3. "Bethesda losing their way." Or how MEA lacks the charm of the trilogy. I have no idea how many people actually were disappointed. Maybe it's just a vocal minority and the usual do-not-like-change-phenomenon. FO4 was the biggest disappointment in a long time to a friend of mine that almost made him quit gaming altogether. I was curious and found many similar opinions online... Bethesda was also criticized for not even bothering to fix the old Skyrim bugs when they released the Special Edition. Instead causing new ones that once again the community has to fix for them. I don't have an opinion about FO4 myself because the only Fallout game I've played so far is New Vegas, which wasn't even made by Bethesda. I think it is really cynical to play that game with these companies. I am not the biggest fan of CD Projekt Red but I don't want them to be hated ten years from you. I enjoyed Fallout 4 but Bethesda doesn't deserve half the flack they get for it. It is kind of sad that this is the cycle we see ourselves in, a constant stream of this sort of jaded take on the expectations they can no longer deliver. It then colors the perception of what risks they do take, and basically dismisses a lot of things that are valuable in the long run. I have seen almost everything I enjoy turn to crap eventually because creative minds and the settings they created just ran out of ideas, so perhaps I'm being cynical. But I see it as the natural progression of all things. Art, entertainment, governments, societies and even whole civilizations peak and then slowly crumble. This is not a bad thing at all! Everything that "dies" gets replaced with something else. Not necessarily better, but not necessarily worse either. I'll be sad to see something I enjoyed lose its enjoyment, but I didn't mean to say that it's something to be bitter and cry about forever. Rather than looking at something as the only option and if it's gone the world ends, one is perhaps better advised to look at what, in this case, gaming has to offer as a whole. If, say, Bioware did their part influencing the industry and other companies are picking it up and adding something new of their own that I can enjoy, isn't that just as good? Hypothetically, if Bioware has handed the torch over to CDPR as the company that gives me my cinematic RPG fix, then technically I have lost nothing. One just replaced the other. The real problem to me is that if we keep expecting one company to provide us with the best experience forever, this can only end in disappointment and bitterness. The key is to "enjoy it while it lasts". It's not all that cynical. And I'm not saying Bioware cannot deliver something great anymore. It's not all a steady decline, sometimes there are comebacks etc. And one must not forget that Bioware as a company is constantly changing. So new talent might give us something new and exciting. Obviously those who loved the game would have to apply this to whatever THEY happen to be currently disappointed with. The more we are invested in something, the harder it is to let go. I'm still mad about how Dexter ended. And some people are still mad about ME3. It's stupid though. Plenty of other things to enjoy out there.
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Post by Kappa Neko on May 3, 2017 17:22:08 GMT
DA:O is one of the only Bioware games that really made me question my decisions frequently. Mass Effect is my favorite of the two franchises but I still think Origins beats out any of the ME games when it comes to tough choices or dealing with indirect consequences of said choices. I liked the Renegade/Paragon tone of Shepard's dialogue and it helps sell that character, but I thought most of the big moment choices were a little too binary good/bad with the game doing a lot to tell you which one you should be pick. That is true... the flaw in the paragon/renegade system. The colored dialogue choices were insta-win buttons. High enough persuasion skills always led to success. Bioware DID have paragon lead to bad outcomes once or twice but these instances should have been WAY more frequent. The trilogy had a number of good philosophical ideas and moral dilemmas, on paper. But the dialogue mechanics were designed in a way that took care of the thinking for us, and more importantly, the right choice was always heavily implied. This is very characteristic of Bioware games, they is always a "right" way to play them. Their tales are very very moralistic. I like that about Bioware a lot but I understand why this is a problem for an RPG.
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Post by FeralEwok on May 3, 2017 18:00:03 GMT
That is true... the flaw in the paragon/renegade system. The colored dialogue choices were insta-win buttons. High enough persuasion skills always led to success. Oh I actually just meant the flavor dialogue options that might impact the course of conversations rather than the final decisions where you pick the red or blue (that was indeed a insta-win choice) I liked the system more when it was something like approaching a merc that has useful information. He's trying to put up a defense and not tell you anything useful. Your ultimate goal is to get him to realize the boss he's protecting isn't worth it. You can appeal to his sense of self-worth "You're a pawn to that boss, you think they are looking out for anyone but themselves?" or You can appeal to his sense of self-preservation by making darkly funny comment that is a not-so thinly veiled threat to push them out a window. I also liked that you could threaten to do something as a bluff but not be forced to act on it. That's actually how I played Shepard a lot...I think deep down they were a good person and very kind to loved ones, but very intimidating to enemies and always at the ready in case they have to take someone down. They'd prefer not to have to get messy and knows that sometimes just the threat of violence is enough to solve a problem. A lot of full renegade is just straight up sociopath.
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alanc9
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Post by alanc9 on May 3, 2017 18:20:36 GMT
DA:O is one of the only Bioware games that really made me question my decisions frequently. Mass Effect is my favorite of the two franchises but I still think Origins beats out any of the ME games when it comes to tough choices or dealing with indirect consequences of said choices. I liked the Renegade/Paragon tone of Shepard's dialogue and it helps sell that character, but I thought most of the big moment choices were a little too binary good/bad with the game doing a lot to tell you which one you should be pick. That is true... the flaw in the paragon/renegade system. The colored dialogue choices were insta-win buttons. High enough persuasion skills always led to success. Bioware DID have paragon lead to bad outcomes once or twice but these instances should have been WAY more frequent. Part of the problem is that the implementation conflates moral choice and skill use. Players would feel cheated if successful use of Charm led to a bad outcome.
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Iakus
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iakus
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Post by Iakus on May 3, 2017 21:38:15 GMT
That is true... the flaw in the paragon/renegade system. The colored dialogue choices were insta-win buttons. High enough persuasion skills always led to success. Bioware DID have paragon lead to bad outcomes once or twice but these instances should have been WAY more frequent. Part of the problem is that the implementation conflates moral choice and skill use. Players would feel cheated if successful use of Charm led to a bad outcome. Why? Pillars of Eternity was absolutely FULL of dialogue options based on having a particular skill, stat, or race. And they aren't necessarily "I win" buttons. Some are. A lot aren't. What they really represented were different ways of approaching a conversation. So why should being able to talk a good game make you able to talk down hardened gunmen when you have a reputation for avoiding conflict? Heck, that's what made ME1's skill system interesting. You had to put separate points into being able to be diplomatic AND intimidating. All that was missing is making certain situations easier or harder (or impossible) based on which skill you used. Edit: also, greying out unusuable options might have been a mistake too. Go ahead, use that option if you THINK you got what it takes to pull it off
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Post by alanc9 on May 4, 2017 1:07:52 GMT
Part of the problem is that the implementation conflates moral choice and skill use. Players would feel cheated if successful use of Charm led to a bad outcome. Why? Pillars of Eternity was absolutely FULL of dialogue options based on having a particular skill, stat, or race. And they aren't necessarily "I win" buttons. Some are. A lot aren't. What they really represented were different ways of approaching a conversation. So why should being able to talk a good game make you able to talk down hardened gunmen when you have a reputation for avoiding conflict? This would be clearer if I'd played PoE. What kind of skills are you talking about? Is this an actual persuasion mechanic the way, say, D&D 3.0 has Bluff, Intimidate, et al? The second paragraph is a non sequitur. Having a persuasion mechanic doesn't mean that you get to use that mechanic in every situation, surely.
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Iakus
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iakus
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Post by Iakus on May 4, 2017 1:32:21 GMT
Why? Pillars of Eternity was absolutely FULL of dialogue options based on having a particular skill, stat, or race. And they aren't necessarily "I win" buttons. Some are. A lot aren't. What they really represented were different ways of approaching a conversation. So why should being able to talk a good game make you able to talk down hardened gunmen when you have a reputation for avoiding conflict? This would be clearer if I'd played PoE. What kind of skills are you talking about? Is this an actual persuasion mechanic the way, say, D&D 3.0 has Bluff, Intimidate, et al? The second paragraph is a non sequitur. Having a persuasion mechanic doesn't mean that you get to use that mechanic in every situation, surely. Not a persuasion check as such (those are specific stat checks: Resolve for persuasion and Might for intimidation). There are also skill checks to bring up possibly pertinent information. Lore for esoteric information like history, politics and such. Survival to identify herbs and poisons, and such. Other stats come up as well. Perception can have you point out inconsistencies in a story, for example. But again, these aren't necessarily "I win" checks. Sometimes all they do is let your character show off how knowledgeable they are. Sometimes a person may even take offense if you point something out. In addition, the player's actions actually build towards a reputation. Being kind, helpful "Paragon" might get you the Benevolent reputation, which might make some people more willing to trust you. Although others may see you as a soft touch and try to take advantage of you. OTOH, being all violent and merciless may get you the Cruel reputation, which may get people to treat you more aggressively rather than talk. But on the other hand may get less savory characters to think you're their kind of people. There's other reputations as well: Rational, Stoic, Passionate, Honest, Deceptive, etc. AS for the second part: I mean past actions should play into how people perceive you, making certain persuasion attempts easier or harder. You know, choices having consequences
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RoboticWater
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Post by RoboticWater on May 4, 2017 1:54:19 GMT
Why? Pillars of Eternity was absolutely FULL of dialogue options based on having a particular skill, stat, or race. And they aren't necessarily "I win" buttons. Some are. A lot aren't. What they really represented were different ways of approaching a conversation. So why should being able to talk a good game make you able to talk down hardened gunmen when you have a reputation for avoiding conflict? This would be clearer if I'd played PoE. What kind of skills are you talking about? Is this an actual persuasion mechanic the way, say, D&D 3.0 has Bluff, Intimidate, et al? The second paragraph is a non sequitur. Having a persuasion mechanic doesn't mean that you get to use that mechanic in every situation, surely. No, Pillars uses a far more interesting mechanic than straight Bluff/Intimidation. Most superficially, it reacts to your race and backstory (and possibly gender, but I don't remember any), which makes for nice flavor, and the player often has contextual options given their class. Stat-wise, you're given fairly frequent skill and attribute checks, i.e. intelligent/athletic/willful characters can work their way out of situations with their respective talents. There's a fairly robust reputation system where your actions during quests can determine your relationship with organizations and towns. And there's also a disposition mechanic where if you say stoic/clever/antagonistic/benevolent things, people will start to recognize you by those attributes. Unfortunately this last one is a bit too reductive in that special dialogs can trigger if you just pass the number requirement, e.g. I can have 2 points of "clever" and 4 of "stoic," but someone might comment on how I'm known to be a trouble maker because of my cleverness (as a side note, what Pillars views as "clever" is usually either mean or low-brow humor, not wit). All of that is placed on top of dialog trees that often have multiple paths to a solution, some of which don't require attribute checks as much as game-acquired knowledge (as opposed to stat-determined knowledge). I vastly prefer this kind of thing to "you're X good at talking" skills. Dialog, especially cinematic dialog where our characters have physical agency, should be, like combat, based around the collection of our abilities, not contingent on just one or two. If I had a problem with Pillar's implementation, it's that there's no distinction between physical and mental strength within the attribute system. I "lost" a few dialogs because my glass-cannon cypher (soul/mind mage essentially) wasn't Resolute enough, but I didn't want Resolve because it counts as general fortitude. Same with Might (which is both spiritual and physical power): my same glass cannon was able to win a dialog by punching some chick unconscious. As it relates to Mass Effect, this kind of system would likely be impossible. There just isn't the time to voice/animate/etc. that much content, and going back to charm/intimidate isn't an especially compelling option. A more reasonable possibility is that BioWare, on the large scale, account only for our big choices and rarer public displays of disposition, and on the small scale, endeavor to let our choices within quests affect the disposition of the NPCs in the immediate vicinity. Ideally, I think intimidation would come from our overt actions, not from skill we apparently acquired by making scary faces in the mirror.
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on May 4, 2017 2:11:46 GMT
Ideally, I think intimidation would come from our overt actions, not from skill we apparently acquired by making scary faces in the mirror.
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dis_Op2399
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tripgodblossom
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Post by dis_Op2399 on May 4, 2017 10:37:08 GMT
I've semi enjoyed Noah Gervais long form videos before so watched this as soon as it released. Luckily he doesn't go into absurd identity politics rat holes in this one, but I still find myself disagreeing with a lot of his points, while still being on board with the overall message that the story is hackneyed.
What really sticks out to me is the disconnect between reviewers and the average gamer. Open world matters A LOT to the average gamer because, unless it's literally empty, it equates to value for money. Whatever my disappointments with the characters and narrative of Andromeda I am forced to hold it in a certain regard because I have pumped more hours into it than I did in my last two games combined (Doom and Resident Evil 7). I enjoyed those games plenty but when I look at it objectively I'm just getting a lot more value for money from Andromeda.
Quantity matters in video games. That is why Bioware's only anger inducing release for me was Dragon Age 2, which felt like 30% of a game yet cost full price. Also gameplay matters. Graphics matter. ME:A does these two things very well. Gervais barely touched on those things, and from the footage used it looked like he was playing on some absurdly easy difficulty which gives his review less credibility. Also he's really off in specifics like blaming the animation on "da computer done it", the fact of sequencing being used in all these type of games seemingly going completely over his head.
What is apparent to me is that every subjective flaw of Andromeda -besides story- has its root in Dragon Age Inquisition. From the map waypoints to the protruding minerals, the annoying campy characters to the MMO fetch quests this is DA:I in space. Even tonally Andromeda has inherited from Dragon Age - everything about the Reyes character made me think I was back in Thedas. Yet this isn't acknowledged because DA:I's story was 15% more engaging.
Also on the subject of playing it safe - y'know what didn't play it safe? ME3's ending. The fact that the ending meant death was bold. But people went into spasming rage that you didn't get to stomp on the nasty Reapers and then have a cut scene with Shep and Garrus drinking cocktails on the beach. Bioware paid the ultimate price for the risk of that ending. You really think EA would let them do that again? The admin team probably couldn't face the death threats. And before you start up the rage in response, remember that it still counts as a risk even if you personally didn't like it.
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mofojokers
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mofojokers
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Post by mofojokers on May 4, 2017 11:01:07 GMT
I've semi enjoyed Noah Gervais long form videos before so watched this as soon as it released. Luckily he doesn't go into absurd identity politics rat holes in this one, but I still find myself disagreeing with a lot of his points, while still being on board with the overall message that the story is hackneyed. What really sticks out to me is the disconnect between reviewers and the average gamer. Open world matters A LOT to the average gamer because, unless it's literally empty, it equates to value for money. Whatever my disappointments with the characters and narrative of Andromeda I am forced to hold it in a certain regard because I have pumped more hours into it than I did in my last two games combined (Doom and Resident Evil 7). I enjoyed those games plenty but when I look at it objectively I'm just getting a lot more value for money from Andromeda. Quantity matters in video games. That is why Bioware's only anger inducing release for me was Dragon Age 2, which felt like 30% of a game yet cost full price. Also gameplay matters. Graphics matter. ME:A does these two things very well. Gervais barely touched on those things, and from the footage used it looked like he was playing on some absurdly easy difficulty which gives his review less credibility. Also he's really off in specifics like blaming the animation on "da computer done it", the fact of sequencing being used in all these type of games seemingly going completely over his head. What is apparent to me is that every subjective flaw of Andromeda -besides story- has its root in Dragon Age Inquisition. From the map waypoints to the protruding minerals, the annoying campy characters to the MMO fetch quests this is DA:I in space. Even tonally Andromeda has inherited from Dragon Age - everything about the Reyes character made me think I was back in Thedas. Yet this isn't acknowledged because DA:I's story was 15% more engaging. Also on the subject of playing it safe - y'know what didn't play it safe? ME3's ending. The fact that the ending meant death was bold. But people went into spasming rage that you didn't get to stomp on the nasty Reapers and then have a cut scene with Shep and Garrus drinking cocktails on the beach. Bioware paid the ultimate price for the risk of that ending. You really think EA would let them do that again? The admin team probably couldn't face the death threats. And before you start up the rage in response, remember that it still counts as a risk even if you personally didn't like it. Quality > Quantity.... I will take a steak ,served with a madeira mushroom ragu over 50 cheeseburgers any day..... Wierd choice buddy...😂 Ps. You would love No Man's Sky😆
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