cobalt72
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Post by cobalt72 on May 3, 2017 14:18:33 GMT
Meh, where was the option for Shepard to murder Miranda and Jacob when he found out they were Cerberus. Might've ended in a game over but it would've been nice.
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Post by Sairys on May 3, 2017 14:37:05 GMT
Ryder doesn't have the authority to do that. You want a compete Mary sue power fantasy there's still the OT to play. Not even that. Where was Shephard's option to murder the Citadel council? Actually, she DID have the choice to either send the Fleet to save them or let them die during the final fight with Saren at the Citadel. The first time I played, I let them die.
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Post by Sairys on May 3, 2017 14:44:57 GMT
Me neither, fortunately (or unfortunately) I know what it takes to be one. Ryder is a believable good character, however an unbelievable leader, and unfortunately he is one. I gues, to me, this boils down to be an immersion breaking point. So if you know what it takes to be one you probably could agree... it's easy to become leader but it takes time to be a good leader. This is a group of "kids". Some "elder" pointed a finger on one of them and said "this is your leader now. Do as he/she says". LOL These "I haven't said dismist..." scenes in the meeting room nails is so perfectly. I don't know, maybe it's just me, maybe I'm too old, maybe I have worked for too long in teams with "kids", have been responsible for kids (being "leader" and having "trainees", being "parent"), maybe I have too much "kids" around me... but I can so easily recognize my Andromeda crew in RL kids and that is what makes it so funny and interesting for me. This are KIDS, no leaders, Ryder needs to learn being one. But as Vonuber said so perfectly: This isn't about not being Mass Effect, this is about not being Shepard. People don't want something new, it has to be a Shepard clone. Actually what I want to play is a bad-ass hero, like Shepard, like Chief, like Inquisitor, like Warden, Like Hawke, like my character in Skyrim, like my Revan in KOTOR, like any Jedi I've played in a plethora of games. like every MMO character I've created in EQ and WoW and Elder Scrolls Online, like....you get my drift. I don't want to play a fumbling kid trying to fill a parent's shoes. I play games to be the capable hero. To me, that's why I play games. That's what keeps me replaying them. To me, Ryder is a weak character so she has little replay in there for me.
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Post by kino on May 3, 2017 15:10:55 GMT
And yet others are wanting a "badass". I do not. Seems to be quite the quandary. I do not need a badass either, unfortunately Ryder is the CO of a ship, the commander of a crew, the pathfinder everyone relies on. This means, s/he has to be a leader to some degree. Ryder is not. And I would not mind starting as an average joe and grow to be one during the course of the game. Ryder is not. Maybe this is just another continuity problem BW forgot about, but Peebees loyalty comes so late, any hint of "growth" is blown out the window when Peebee releases the escape pod, we can be mad at ther, but 5min later during the "too friendly banter" on the surface it is already forgotten and back on the Tempest it is as if it never happened. It just does not work. There is a big difference between what Ryder is and what Ryder has to be, MUST be, in this setting. It is like the tone of the game, this lighthearted tone does not fit the setting. It is easy as that. During my military service, well lets just say, noone would follow Ryder, not into combat and noone would trust Ryder they can solve anything. And in civilian matters? Ryder would never be entrusted to be head of a department, not even speaking about being boss of a big company. Actually, there are plenty of professional dialog options where Ryder sets a commanding tone. Freeing the Moshae mission when speaking with Jaal, "My team, my rules", is one. Making PB pay for the escape pod whether than just sweeping it under the rug. Telling Drack you made your decision. The statement that there aren't parts of the story where Ryder can behave in a manner that's forceful is, well, just wrong. There's are plenty of scenes where Ryder can be by the book. And you fight with the army you have, not the one you want. People will follow results.
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Post by caterpillar on May 3, 2017 15:15:57 GMT
I'm not hung up on being a 'badass' but I would like for my Ryder to actually believe in the options I choose for them. What I mean is, in my current playthrough, my Ryder full on supported Sarissa's choice to sacrifice her Pathfinder for the intel she believed would give her people the best chance against the Kett. My Ryder agreed with her decision, and would have made the same choice. But when we encounter Sarissa again in Tann's office, my conversation choices did not reflect this at all. The best I could do was tell Sarissa that I hoped she learned from this, in a tone that suggested I only reluctantly supported her as Pathfinder. If I could have walked away without saying anything, I would have preferred that to what came out of Ryder's mouth.
I do get that you aren't going to get 100% dialogue agreement with your character in even the most well written game, but for Bioware to give you a choice and then not let your character express firm resolve in that choice feels really off. Why give us the decision to make at all, if they are going to force us to walk back on it in dialog later?
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Post by Conquer Your Dreams on May 3, 2017 15:22:35 GMT
Slightly disagree. There are real choices in ME. Small ones - You can kill Wrex, you can decide between Ash or Kaidan, you can kill Council,you can let your companions die just by not doing their loyalty quests in ME2/easiest way to get rid of Liam, but again no possible/ - Big ones - you can save the whole race - Krogans - or you can let them die. ME3 ending ? There is still life after Starchild - after Shep will make his choice - and it depends on you who will be still there - Geth, Quarians, Batarians, Rachni- or maybe none of them. Many choices my friend. Civil society ? Agree. But Pathinder is a military. Alec, all other pathfinders. They did whatever was necessary. Many people strongly disagree with me about kicking off Tann from Nexus, because of who he is and what he did - but at the same time many of them easily forgive Asari Pathfinder making her choice. It's always about saving lives. If I have to sacrifice one to save many, I will do that. That's Pathfinder role. Slightly disagree: You can decide between Ash and Kaidan? No - you HAVE to. You HAVE to decide wether or not to kill the council. Loyalty mission or not in ME2 to kill them at the end of the story doesn't help me to love my forced alliance with Cerberus, Jacob and Miranda any better. I have no choice to say no and handle the collectors with my alliance buddies. This would be my "freedom of choice". Also all that choices - it's three games to one. If I let the rachni go in ME1 has no imidiate impact at all - in both cases the counsil yells at me (and I can't shoot them...). It's the same "meaningful" choice as with "Sleeping dragons" for example. It may just sound a bit more meaningful. Batarians gone without any choice at all. Geth or Quarians? Both? Doesn't matter at all after Starbrat offers my the endings. Shallow choices my friend - but they do look nice at first. Pathfinder is military? No. It just happens that some of them are ex-military. Two, to be exaclty. The human and the turian. And well, even our good old Alec was more of a scientist than military if you want to be correct. The N7 thing was just some kind of funny fanservice. Asari was a diplomat/matriarch, Salarian a politician/dalatrass. So to me the role of a Pathfinder is more of exploration and finding vialble places for settlements. Not fighting against an aggressive race like the kett - but now they have to. For you the role of a Pathfinder is fighting and a bit of exploring if you find the time, at least that's my impression. Sorry if I got that wrong. So let's just agree that we disagree, that I like the game and you don't. Hard to agree with you, because at least I CAN DECIDE. To do something, or not to do. Not all the time of course, but enough times to make me happy. Batarians gone ? Not in my playthrough, after i take Batarian fleets from Balak - later i even got a note that there is a hope for Batarians to rebuild without Hegemony. Geth or Quarians doesn't matter ? Not in my playthrough my friend, cause i save both and i didn't choose destroy. So no matter how much You hate ME3 endings, there is still life after Starchild. Pathinder ex-military is not military anyone ? Just because of their background ? Well, it's not only Alec or Turian Pathinder. Did you see what Asari or Salarian Pathinder been doing around ? One man army. Scientist are not able to do something like that. They act like soldiers when it's needed, and they do really good job. Sara is also not military, and she is smashing every single Kett she meet, so... Of course You are right about one thing - Andromeda is like ME1, just opening to much larger and /hopefully/ better story, so it's hard to get conclusion about many things. I can only hope, that in the next installment Ryder will grow up and i will have much more to say, not only to agree with anyone else. I'm happy You like the game, and i like it too in some ways, but i see how many things go wrong - and how much better it could be. Just the matter of perspective.
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Post by brad2240 on May 3, 2017 17:16:29 GMT
As to these "airlock" comments going around, let me play devil's advocate for a minute. In SWTOR, playing the Sith Warrior, there is a point in the story where a companion betrays you. Actually betrays you to your enemy. And I can't kill him. Let me emphasize that: as a Sith I can't kill somebody that double-crossed me. Makes no sense, right? I read on the SWTOR forum that in early or beta versions of the game (well before I was playing) you could, in fact, kill that companion. But players complained when they no longer had access to that character. I repeat: Players killed a character and then complained because that character was gone.Before you lament BW not letting you kill off your squadmates at will, try to remember that this is the level of player they have to satisfy. DAI did it very well with getting rid of them another Bioware game. Mind you DAI had its own other problems as well. I remember that very well and he did betray you to that fat prick. Taking away our choice to remove him was very silly. But that was more the MMO fans sparking up than the rpg lovers. But we rarely played the game for the online side and more for the stories and singleplayer side. Single player games especially need to give the choice to players and not make it themselves. Especially in a game that heavily marketed itself on deep and meaningful decisions. I feel like it took a step backwards from DAI while trying to sidestep things from it like the open world and filler content. Everything about MEA feels like DAI in a ME skin just worse in every way. 😕
I agree with the bolded part, to a point. There's obviously going to be many times the developers/game has to make the choice so the narrative can continue. I generally prioritize story over mechanics in games so I'll take a tighter narrative that comes at the cost of some player freedom. That's why I get more out of Bioware games than Bethesda games, for example.
As far as quality and meaningfulness of choices, I was pretty happy with most of them in MEA, big and small. Several of them brought me to a halt and made me think, like the Angaran AI, Raeka vs. the Krogan, or giving Morda the drive core. These were well done and I got a lot of enjoyment out of them, I'd call them some of my favorite decision moments from the whole series to date.
I can't agree with MEA being worse than DAI. Inquisition was a disappointment for me, the only BW game I've played that I didn't instantly fall in love with and replay immediately after finishing the first time. For my money, BW improved on just about everything I had issues with in DAI. I will say, though, that a lot of my gripes about DAI were because of technical problems on the 360 and that replaying it on PS4 has been a much better experience, so the game has risen in my estimation.
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Post by brad2240 on May 3, 2017 17:22:55 GMT
Not even that. Where was Shephard's option to murder the Citadel council? Actually, she DID have the choice to either send the Fleet to save them or let them die during the final fight with Saren at the Citadel. The first time I played, I let them die.
But that's not murdering the Council. That's a tactical decision made in the heat of battle. And it's completely different from pulling out a gun and shooting someone in the face, as has been asked for in this thread.
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Post by KaiserShep on May 3, 2017 18:00:14 GMT
Actually, she DID have the choice to either send the Fleet to save them or let them die during the final fight with Saren at the Citadel. The first time I played, I let them die.
But that's not murdering the Council. That's a tactical decision made in the heat of battle. And it's completely different from pulling out a gun and shooting someone in the face, as has been asked for in this thread.
It would've been kind of crazy/stupid if you could though, because the game would never be able to realistically account for that outcome. You'd be stripped of Spectre status and be made an example of by the Alliance to maintain any kind of standing with the Council species. Needless to say that journey would be over. Thinking about this, there's one time where Shepard can off a politician, and that's in Thane's loyalty mission, but I thought that was stupid too. No way should someone be able to just straight up murder an elected official on the Citadel with absolutely zero consequences. Bailey might be a crooked cop, but not even he should be able to have the power to just make that go away.
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Post by themikefest on May 3, 2017 18:21:23 GMT
But that's not murdering the Council. That's a tactical decision made in the heat of battle. And it's completely different from pulling out a gun and shooting someone in the face, as has been asked for in this thread.
True, though I like that Shepard can say, "Hold off Joker. We're not sacrificing human lives to save the council" and when choosing who to be councilor, Shepard can say, "The council was always holding us back. When I saw an opportunity to get rid of them, I took it."
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2017 18:23:37 GMT
I do not need a badass either, unfortunately Ryder is the CO of a ship, the commander of a crew, the pathfinder everyone relies on. I don't remember them ever using that language (CO, commander) in the game - you're carrying that over from the trilogy. The Ai is a civilian organization. The game isn't clear about reporting structure, but the only people who might be direct reports to Ryder are Cora and Liam. The services of the rest of the crew are either Nexus related (provided by Tann) or volunteers. And at the bottom of it all - us Sheeple forking out hard-earned dough for an inferior product. Maybe that's why they left Steam - didn't like their refund-policy.......... Origin also allows refunds. But why the hell should EA hand Steam a chunk of their revenue? Steam offers nothing that EA doesn't also provide, and using their own software distribution probably makes it much easier for them to deal with localization and various legal issues internally. The only time they ever used Steam was before Origin was fully developed, and some people had a resistance to installing Origin. There are real choices in ME. Small ones - You can kill Wrex, you can decide between Ash or Kaidan, you can kill Council,you can let your companions die just by not doing their loyalty quests in ME2/easiest way to get rid of Liam, but again no possible/ - Big ones - you can save the whole race - Krogans - or you can let them die. ME3 ending ? There is still life after Starchild - after Shep will make his choice - and it depends on you who will be still there - Geth, Quarians, Batarians, Rachni- or maybe none of them. Many choices my friend. Some of the choices provided in the trilogy ended up being very costly - and for what, really? The death of any character simply meant that BioWare had to provide replacements to fulfill the same role, and in the case of Kaidan/Ashley, they had a pretty much identical storyline for the remainder of the series. Wrex/Wreav, Original Council/New Council, Mordin/Wiks, Legion/GethVI, Jacob/Other guy, etc., and they wrote minor storylines for all of the squadmates who could have survived ME2 in ME3. It was a helluva lot of baggage to carry forward. A lot of optional content they had to provide - and even then, people were pissed that their ME2 LIs couldn't ride out ME3 on the Normandy. I also think that some people have forgotten all of the non-choices that Shepard had. - Shepard automatically knocked Kaidan/Ash away from the beam. - Shepard could not negotiate with the thorian, but had to kill it. - Shepard had to accept the cipher and mind-meld with Liara. - Shepard was required to interact with the Virmire beam. - Shepard was required to work with Cerberus in ME2. ... etc. Players had to accept Shepard doing all of these things (and many, many more) in order to play through the trilogy. Given the costs associated with the baggage that accumulated in the trilogy, I'm not at all surprised that they decided to restrict some of that in their fresh start. Even so, players made some choices that could create baggage - like the new asari pathfinder, and whether the existing salarian pathfinder survives. Sara is also not military, and she is smashing every single Kett she meet, so... Yes, she was. Both of the Ryder twins served in the Alliance military.
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Post by erikson on May 3, 2017 18:35:01 GMT
Not even that. Where was Shephard's option to murder the Citadel council? Actually, she DID have the choice to either send the Fleet to save them or let them die during the final fight with Saren at the Citadel. The first time I played, I let them die. That is a battle tactic (for what it's worth I never took that option). What was being proposed is that Ryder walk into Tann's office and murder him. That is all together different.
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Post by themikefest on May 3, 2017 18:38:12 GMT
I don't remember them ever using that language (CO, commander) in the game - you're carrying that over from the trilogy. The Ai is a civilian organization. The game isn't clear about reporting structure, but the only people who might be direct reports to Ryder are Cora and Liam. The services of the rest of the crew are either Nexus related (provided by Tann) or volunteers. Even though they volunteered, they agreed to follow Ryder's lead. It doesn't excuse them from doing dumb crap. They have to be held accountable for their actions just like the others. I agree that Shepard did a lot of stuff that wouldn't fit each Shepard. One of my main issues is Shepard wasn't given the opportunity to ask questions throughout the trilogy
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Post by colfoley on May 3, 2017 18:38:48 GMT
Ok fine kick him out...no one will do that, you know why? Because they haven't done it. No one lifted a finger to stop him or remove him from power, for fourteen months they have just been sitting there, doing nothing. Why? Because Tann is their political leader. They may not like him, how many of us IRL like our political leaders? But for the moment anyways they are stuck with him. And in this situation if Ryder were to act, however Ryder would act to remove Tann from power, they'd be laughed at, and then they would be exiled because no one would back them. You know why they didn't react ? Because they didn't know what to do, because everything go wrong, because they lost their leaders. They been waiting for Ark's, for Pathfinders, for someone who will show them the way. Tann just take advantage of this and he make false promises to Krogan, after mutiny finished he lied again... well, you know the story. But now there is a Pathfinder. I am not saying that he should start to make cleaning minute after he arrived, but after establish the first colony in EOS, people start to trust him. Even Addison see that now there is a hope, cause there is a right person on the right place. From that moment it depends on him. Cause it's about people lives, cause there are Kett, cause there are a lot of problems which need to be resolved. So from now on Tann should cooperate, or be replaced. It's simple as that. I don't understand where you see the problem. i see a problem because the course of action you propose is entirely insane. And shouldn't be possible given the plot, the lore, or the back story of the game. Not without a crisis point similar to the first game. That never happened. It would have ruined the plot if Bioware tried it. Jumping the shark even.
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Post by erikson on May 3, 2017 18:39:21 GMT
Not even that. Where was Shephard's option to murder the Citadel council? It was there. My Shepard has no problem letting them die. But then again I blame the commander of the destiny for putting the destiny and council in harms way Again...not that same thing as going into the characters' office and executing them in cold blood. Entirely different scenario.
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Post by erikson on May 3, 2017 18:41:34 GMT
Then, like I said before, this conversation has no purpouse other than to go round and round endlessly. I have no idea what BW's intentions were. I play these games to experience a character and a story, I have no personal asperations to lead a crew or command a squad in real life. That is true of me now, and it has been so the last three times I played the trilogy. Me neither, fortunately (or unfortunately) I know what it takes to be one. Ryder is a believable good character, however an unbelievable leader, and unfortunately he is one. I gues, to me, this boils down to be an immersion breaking point. We'll have to agree to disagree.
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Post by themikefest on May 3, 2017 18:42:53 GMT
Again...not that same thing as going into the characters' office and executing them in cold blood. Entirely different scenario. Never said it was.
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Post by KaiserShep on May 3, 2017 18:43:56 GMT
The whole Council decision was kind of a farce from the start, and was rightly corrected, somewhat, in ME2.
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Post by colfoley on May 3, 2017 18:45:48 GMT
So the moral of the story is the Inquisitor is a bad leader for doing too much...but Ryder is a bad leader for doing too little.. Like being unable to forcibly remove political leaders from office.
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Post by erikson on May 3, 2017 18:49:10 GMT
So the moral of the story is the Inquisitor is a bad leader for doing too much...but Ryder is a bad leader for doing too little.. Like being unable to forcibly remove political leaders from office. The Bioware Goldilocks zone is a real killer to find. cheap image hosting
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Post by themikefest on May 3, 2017 18:50:19 GMT
The whole Council decision was kind of a farce from the start, and was rightly corrected, somewhat, in ME2. There should have never been a decision to be made had the commander of the destiny did her job. The other is I would have left the decision up to Hackett since he can see the battle and knows if the ship can be saved or not
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Post by KaiserShep on May 3, 2017 18:52:53 GMT
How would Ryder even be able to accomplish that anyway lol. Just walk into Tann's office and blow his brains out? We'd then just have to fight the legions of security personnel led by Kandros afterward, and out [former] squad members won't be there to help us. It'll be like that time I killed a man in Vault 81, only this time I have no way out.
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erikson
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Post by erikson on May 3, 2017 18:53:40 GMT
The whole Council decision was kind of a farce from the start, and was rightly corrected, somewhat, in ME2. There should have never been a decision to be made had the commander of the destiny did her job. The other is I would have left the decision up to Hackett since he can see the battle and knows if the ship can be saved or not It doesn't make sense that Commander Shepard would have the authority to give such an order, but if not people would be complaining about the lack of choices. I'm surprised some of the people here aren't angry they didn't have an option to blow up the DA themselves.
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Post by colfoley on May 3, 2017 18:55:27 GMT
How would Ryder even be able to accomplish that anyway lol. Just walk into Tann's office and blow his brains out? We'd then just have to fight the legions of security personnel led by Kandros afterward, and out [former] squad members won't be there to help us. It'll be like that time I killed a man in Vault 81, only this time I have no way out. nah. No one is suggesting that we kill him...only put him on a shuttle to Kadara. How that does not lead to Ryder having to still fight through countless security...i do not know.
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Post by themikefest on May 3, 2017 18:55:57 GMT
I like the way you think. When Bioware remakes the trilogy, they'll put that in as an option. I know I would take it.
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