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Post by themikefest on May 2, 2017 21:48:08 GMT
Remember in ME2 that you were forced to take a very powerful biotic criminal with you despite the fact she has a clear hatred for organization that you were working for? Forced as a squadmate, yes. Forced to survive ME2, no.
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Post by themikefest on May 2, 2017 21:49:30 GMT
To be fair, at least ME1 allowed me to blow Kaiden up with a nuclear warhead, so I can't really complain. And let Ashley kill the krogan.
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caridounette
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by caridounette on May 2, 2017 21:49:46 GMT
Thats what happens when you just tack game mecanisms on top a new story / new purpose instead of crafting them to suit the experience you want for the player. There is just no reconciliation of the 'Not Shepard Story' and the 'Totally Shepard Gameplay'. Out of curiosity, is this a critique that there should have been broader dialogue options (which I agree with), and a freer hand in crafting your own character, or that a softer character should not even be an option? Would that apply as well to DA2 sarctastic Hawke, who kills 500 people daily while still joking all the time, as well as any quip making action film characters? Genuinely curious. To me it would totally applies to Hawke as well, which is why I did not enjoy that game as much as I would have liked. Some ppl really question the writing when a game misses its mark, but I question the implementation (dont start me on being a mage in Kirkwall and unoticebly fireballing every outlaws is see on a good night). Why make story about 'normal life and unexpected developments' (DA2) of 'junior adventurer' (MEA) and treat it like a war epic in the gameplay and not in the portrayal of the characters ? I want to be something else then a soldier or epic figure. But if youre just gonna tell me that im not and treat me like I am through the type of actions Ill be expected to perform for 40 hours, then just let me be damn soldier. Then ill know why I got to kill and fetch . If youre gonna tell me that Liam gave out sensitive info about the Initiative after I had to kill hundreds to defend it then let me kick him out of the boat. Or at least give him the mean to make amend so I can show a softer side that isnt 'oh well shit happens' but more like 'We can all benefit from second chances'. Relaying the game right now is really showing me the task it is to create a consistent character.
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erikson
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Post by erikson on May 2, 2017 21:51:37 GMT
Out of curiosity, is this a critique that there should have been broader dialogue options (which I agree with), and a freer hand in crafting your own character, or that a softer character should not even be an option? Would that apply as well to DA2 sarctastic Hawke, who kills 500 people daily while still joking all the time, as well as any quip making action film characters? Genuinely curious. To me it would totally applies to Hawke as well, which is why I did not enjoy that game as much as I would have liked. Some ppl really question the writing when a game misses its mark, but I question the implementation (dont start me on being a mage in Kirkwall and unoticebly fireballing every outlaws is see on a good night). Why make story about 'normal life and unexpected developments' (DA2) of 'junior adventurer' (MEA) and treat it like a war epic in the gameplay and not in the portrayal of the characters ? I want to be something else then a soldier or epic figure. But if youre just gonna tell me that im not and treat me like I am through the type of actions Ill be expected to perform for 40 hours, then just let me be damn soldier. Then ill know why I got to kill and fetch . If youre gonna tell me that Liam gave out sensitive info about the Initiative after I had to kill hundreds to defend it then let me kick him out of the boat. Or at least give him the mean to make amend so I can show a softer side that isnt 'oh well shit happens' but more like 'We can all benefit from second chances'. Relaying the game right now is really showing me the task it is to create a consistent character. That is fine, and makes perfect sense. What I am asking is do you think a hard and soft option should have been available to both types of players as I do?
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caridounette
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Post by caridounette on May 2, 2017 21:58:21 GMT
To me it would totally applies to Hawke as well, which is why I did not enjoy that game as much as I would have liked. Some ppl really question the writing when a game misses its mark, but I question the implementation (dont start me on being a mage in Kirkwall and unoticebly fireballing every outlaws is see on a good night). Why make story about 'normal life and unexpected developments' (DA2) of 'junior adventurer' (MEA) and treat it like a war epic in the gameplay and not in the portrayal of the characters ? I want to be something else then a soldier or epic figure. But if youre just gonna tell me that im not and treat me like I am through the type of actions Ill be expected to perform for 40 hours, then just let me be damn soldier. Then ill know why I got to kill and fetch . If youre gonna tell me that Liam gave out sensitive info about the Initiative after I had to kill hundreds to defend it then let me kick him out of the boat. Or at least give him the mean to make amend so I can show a softer side that isnt 'oh well shit happens' but more like 'We can all benefit from second chances'. Relaying the game right now is really showing me the task it is to create a consistent character. That is fine, and makes perfect sense. What I am asking is do you think a hard and soft option should have been available to both types of players as I do? My answer is a complex YES. I say complex because both are interesting if the game lets you play those characters outside of conversations too. If the only action resolution is gonna be pewpew then make me soldier. MET showed me I could have fun with that. Or hey, develop game mechanisms that lets me e a noob explorer I'd actually prefer the latter.
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erikson
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Post by erikson on May 2, 2017 22:01:16 GMT
Or hey, develop game mechanisms that lets me e a noob explorer I'd actually prefer the latter. If only! Unfortunately even more people would have hated the game if they did that. Sometimes it is impossible to please everybody.
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Post by caridounette on May 2, 2017 22:03:02 GMT
Im tring to experiment right now with the Infiltrator's cloaking hability to get into Remnant camps and steal the loot with minimal fighting. That's a start. But it feels like Im playing against the game, not with the game, if that makes sense.
Playing the game as (mechanicly) intended, id take a more renegade stance.
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Post by erikson on May 2, 2017 22:08:38 GMT
That's really great and Bioware should totally add to option to play as one. Except this should lead to an automatic 'mission failure' screen followed by a cutscene where you're fired and incarcerated. and being as weak as Ryder should lead to a 'game over' and you being tortured to death by Kett. Seriously Bioware made a game about colonialism, the only darker topic would be a game about the holocaust, genocide is exactly what colonialism IS, the eradication or subjugation of the native population by the colonial power, don't want to cover that, don't make a white wash of a truly horrible human endeavor. For example the 'least bad' empire, the British one, starved millions of Indians to death during world war 2, as a matter of policy, the 'Denial Of Rice', and the 'Denial of Boats' had British forces destroying crops and water craft to deliberately create a famine in the path of a possible Japanese invasion, and deny both the locals and the possible invaders access to craft that could be used to go further afield to get more. Lighthearted stories about colonialism? Never heard of such a thing. image upload free direct link
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Post by frank on May 2, 2017 22:13:16 GMT
"I do not need to be in full killmode and throw Addison out an airlock, telling her to shut the f.... up"
lol
Oh yes..........PLEASE!!!!!!!!
Even in Real Life, I would not - could not - have put up with her. I've walked out of jobs because of assholes like her before.
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dm04
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by dm04 on May 2, 2017 22:19:26 GMT
I gues I do not have the right words for to be understandable. So... well I am the admin of a company and have to fix something with the bosses computer, lets say, just replace a memory module. Whatever I do, I totaly destroy the HD and all data of my boss are gone and when I tell him, he says: aw it was fun to find out all data is lost, well boy, be more careful next time. That is how Ryder react to Liam and Peebee. Did the neighbors kid kill hundreds of Kett? I am pretty sure he did not, but I am also pretty sure he stomped hundreds of ants in the garden behind the house. Well and he is quite unremarkable person, a follower and thats why he is justa voice in a gang he is not the leader of. I do not know if you know such people, but there are people in the world, who enter a room and everything goes silent, everything about them "cries" for attention and they get it. And there are people, who, when talking with a bunch of friends, shout like 100times "now let me tell something" and noone listens to them. That is basicaly Ryder. I would not mind to start like this, but I am not willing to wait 3 games before my "pathfinder", who i see like the marshall from wild west, turns into a respectable person. And I am not saying I would throw Liam into jail and Peebee out of my ship, but I would like an option that is not "you did great son" in two different tones. As to your comparison, we are sometimes forced to work with people we do not like or just disagree, but we are never forced to take their crap. And if we do, that is the very reason why people look down on us. Sure, not everyone can be a leader, unfortunately, Ryder has to be one, at least in this setting. Though, with the roadtrip tone of the game, Ryder fits in perfectly. Kinda reminds me what is going on out there with millenials and generation z... special snowflakes, never tell them they are wrong, they are just special, shield them from competition and losing, always win.
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Post by frank on May 2, 2017 22:27:40 GMT
"I view it as roleplaying. Your roleplaying a situation in which someone with a personality and moral system like yourself is in the situation in the game. That's roleplaying. Might not be as in depth as having someone with different personalities or morals, but still roleplaying. I prefer doing self-insert for my first play through. It keeps me from spending forever on choices because I just choose what I would choose. "
Exactly - I've played Shepard as myself, as honourable professional, and as takes shit from no-one bad-ass. That's what makes the game so re-playable. For my first Andromeda run-through, I played Ryder, choosing the options which most closely reflected what I would have chosen in Real Life.
Now I don't claim to be a bad-ass in Real Life. I don't hassle anyone, unless they hassle me first. But I was increasingly frustrated by all the shit Ryder was putting up with from people. Even in Real Life, I wouldn't have put up with half of what he swallowed with a sheepish grin.
MEA2 really needs to re-introduce dialogue choices which actually mould the character - be it Good - Neutral - or Bad. I see no incentive to re-play MEA if Ryder will still be the same hay-seed.
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Post by caridounette on May 2, 2017 22:30:57 GMT
and being as weak as Ryder should lead to a 'game over' and you being tortured to death by Kett. Seriously Bioware made a game about colonialism, the only darker topic would be a game about the holocaust, genocide is exactly what colonialism IS, the eradication or subjugation of the native population by the colonial power, don't want to cover that, don't make a white wash of a truly horrible human endeavor. For example the 'least bad' empire, the British one, starved millions of Indians to death during world war 2, as a matter of policy, the 'Denial Of Rice', and the 'Denial of Boats' had British forces destroying crops and water craft to deliberately create a famine in the path of a possible Japanese invasion, and deny both the locals and the possible invaders access to craft that could be used to go further afield to get more. Lighthearted stories about colonialism? Never heard of such a thing. /snip I would add there is a definite different between reading a lighthearted story set in a violent setting and being givent a similar setting to play in and be expected to follow a lighthearthed story. Its the nature of video games. Your immersion is shaped as much by the story as it is by the actions youre expected to perform. Not padding the game with 20 extra hours of pewpew / fetch would have done a big diffrence to the situation IMO.
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erikson
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Post by erikson on May 2, 2017 22:40:39 GMT
Lighthearted stories about colonialism? Never heard of such a thing. /snip I would add there is a definite different between reading a lighthearted story set in a violent setting and being givent a similar setting to play in and be expected to follow a lighthearthed story. Its the nature of video games. Your immersion is shaped as much by the story as it is by the actions youre expected to perform. Not padding the game with 20 extra hours of pewpew / fetch would have done a big diffrence to the situation IMO. I think my dissconnect is that, unlike some here, I am more into the character than the story (although I do hope that the story is good) and as long as I can play a character I want, any jarring aspects are irrelevant to me. The "placing yourself in the characters shoes" aspect of gaming is why I am really here. The closest equivalent I can make is the Batman Arkham games. I consider myself a fan of the character, but have found that don't enjoy playing as him very much. I get much more enjoyment playing as Catwoman, Nightwing, Robin or Batgirl in the DLC then Batman in the main game. There just isn't, for me, anything aspirational about playing as the character (same as Geralt in Witcher). Good for one playthough, but after that I find it very hard to get back into.
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Post by KaiserShep on May 2, 2017 22:42:54 GMT
I imagine Tann would relish the idea of murdering exiles. he's a politician he doesn't strike me as being murderous. Sure, not directly, but if they all expired somehow, he probably wouldn't be broken up about it.
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Post by caridounette on May 2, 2017 22:56:13 GMT
I would add there is a definite different between reading a lighthearted story set in a violent setting and being givent a similar setting to play in and be expected to follow a lighthearthed story. Its the nature of video games. Your immersion is shaped as much by the story as it is by the actions youre expected to perform. Not padding the game with 20 extra hours of pewpew / fetch would have done a big diffrence to the situation IMO. I think my dissconnect is that, unlike some here, I am more into the character than the story (although I do hope that the story is good) and as long as I can play a character I want, any jarring aspects are irrelevant to me. The "placing yourself in the characters shoes" aspect of gaming is why I am really here. The closest equivalent I can make is the Batman Arkham games. I consider myself a fan of the character, but have found that don't enjoy playing as him very much. I get much more enjoyment playing as Catwoman, Nightwing, Robin or Batgirl in the DLC then Batman in the main game. There just isn't, for me, anything aspirational about playing as the character (same as Geralt in Witcher). Good for one playthough, but after that I find it very hard to get back into. Well we do meet on that. I do not personally aspire to be a renegade. It is not a specific form of escapeism from real life to me, nor is it a 'lets give snowflakes what they deserve' moral stance. Its a completely ingame contextual perspective. Sometimes my professional Ryder would have needed a Renegade interrupt to make it clear some things are unacceptable when saying it lound and clear has failed. Sometimes my hothead Ryder would have needed a renegade interrupt to show his temper because hes been pretty affected by his father's death. So its really about the character too. Im not into 'clicking all the renegade interrupt to see what kind of dumb shit Ryder can do'.
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erikson
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Post by erikson on May 2, 2017 23:00:21 GMT
I think my dissconnect is that, unlike some here, I am more into the character than the story (although I do hope that the story is good) and as long as I can play a character I want, any jarring aspects are irrelevant to me. The "placing yourself in the characters shoes" aspect of gaming is why I am really here. The closest equivalent I can make is the Batman Arkham games. I consider myself a fan of the character, but have found that don't enjoy playing as him very much. I get much more enjoyment playing as Catwoman, Nightwing, Robin or Batgirl in the DLC then Batman in the main game. There just isn't, for me, anything aspirational about playing as the character (same as Geralt in Witcher). Good for one playthough, but after that I find it very hard to get back into. Well we do meet on that. I do not personally aspire to be a renegade. It is not a specific form of escapeism from real life to me, nor is it a 'lets give snowflakes what they deserve' moral stance. Its a completely ingame contextual perspective. Sometimes my professional Ryder would have needed a Renegade interrupt to make it clear some things are unacceptable when saying it lound and clear has failed. Sometimes my hothead Ryder would have needed a renegade interrupt to show his temper because hes been pretty affected by his father's death. So its really about the character too. Im not into 'clicking all the renegade interrupt to see what kind of dumb shit Ryder can do'. In my MT playthroughs the only renegade interupts I use are during the Archangel mission, when you're sabotaging all the mercs equipment. I have no idea how that can realistically be clased as "renegade" since you'll be shooting these mooks to death 20 minutes later anyway. It's strategy, not ruthlessness.
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Post by cypherj on May 2, 2017 23:04:11 GMT
Yeah, the game needed you to be able to law down the law, or tell people how you felt if need be. One one hand you're the one who has final say who gets woken up from pods, or what types of personnel you're going to put at an outpost. Then on the other when you're talking with Initiative leadership it's like you have to be quiet while grown folks are talking, and sit through blatant disrespect by Tann and Addison to name a couple.
I won't even go into when your crew just walks out on you during the meeting and they have you standing there looking all pitiful saying, well I didn't say the meeting was over. Then, of course, your Ryder makes a joke out of being disrespected by the crew/squad and does nothing. I was so hoping for an interrupt to say get the fuck back here, and then lay down the law on how things were going to work on the ship. If someone wanted to say respect is earned and not given, or say I was given Pathfinder by my father, so be it. Would have added a little bit more the game and broken up the spring break feeling on the ship.
Too many times it was either professional and respectful or corny, not casual, corny.
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Post by colfoley on May 2, 2017 23:04:12 GMT
he's a politician he doesn't strike me as being murderous. Sure, not directly, but if they all expired somehow, he probably wouldn't be broken up about it. well he is Salarian.
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erikson
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by erikson on May 2, 2017 23:08:48 GMT
Sure, not directly, but if they all expired somehow, he probably wouldn't be broken up about it. well he is Salarian. Wouldn't that mean he'd just sterilize all of them?
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cypherj
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by cypherj on May 2, 2017 23:17:37 GMT
Paragon/Renegade never panned out to what it was supposed to be.
Example: You have a prisoner and torturing prisoners is against rules.
Paragon: We torture this prisoner we're no better than they are. Renegade: Our enemy doesn't play by the rules, why should we, torture this guy if it helps get the intel we need to win
A Paragon should have been a person that held to a certain moral code, someone who was trying to be moral in an immoral world, and a Renegade should have been someone who took the world as it was and did what they felt they needed to do to change it even if they had to cross some lines.
Somewhere along the way renegade decisions just turned into killing people for no reason sometimes. I remember on Mordin's recruitment mission, when you're going to find his assistant. You tell the Batarian let him go and you can leave here I give you my word. The Batarian lets the guy go, and the renegade option is just to go back on your word and kill the Batarian anyway. It added nothing to achieving your overall goal, it was killing for the sake of killing, and too many renegade choices came out this way.
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Post by caridounette on May 2, 2017 23:23:52 GMT
Well we do meet on that. I do not personally aspire to be a renegade. It is not a specific form of escapeism from real life to me, nor is it a 'lets give snowflakes what they deserve' moral stance. Its a completely ingame contextual perspective. Sometimes my professional Ryder would have needed a Renegade interrupt to make it clear some things are unacceptable when saying it lound and clear has failed. Sometimes my hothead Ryder would have needed a renegade interrupt to show his temper because hes been pretty affected by his father's death. So its really about the character too. Im not into 'clicking all the renegade interrupt to see what kind of dumb shit Ryder can do'. In my MT playthroughs the only renegade interupts I use are during the Archangel mission, when you're sabotaging all the mercs equipment. I have no idea how that can realistically be clased as "renegade" since you'll be shooting these mooks to death 20 minutes later anyway. It's strategy, not ruthlessness. If youve never played much of the renegade options in MET but enjoy roleplaying, you could have a great time weaving them in with some of the paragon choices. Instead of playing the game in 'color-coded' form it is a nice change of pace to choose some aspects of the renegade persona for a Shepard and pick the renegade dialogues now and then to whne they fit that character trait. I was able to create pretty consistent cold-professional characters and hothead characters that way (I rarely went for the earth-first renegade answers after the beginning of ME1 since I feel they are pretty much overwritten by the bigger story arc and I did not feel compelled to craft a bigot Shepard). To me it helped cut into the 'MarySue' taste of playing full Paragon and gave some depth to my Shepards.
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frank
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Post by frank on May 2, 2017 23:31:16 GMT
Paragon/Renegade never panned out to what it was supposed to be. Example: You have a prisoner and torturing prisoners is against rules. Paragon: We torture this prisoner we're no better than they are. Renegade: Our enemy doesn't play by the rules, why should we, torture this guy if it helps get the intel we need to win A Paragon should have been a person that held to a certain moral code, someone who was trying to be moral in an immoral world, and a Renegade should have been someone who took the world as it was and did what they felt they needed to do to change it even if they had to cross some lines. Somewhere along the way renegade decisions just turned into killing people for no reason sometimes. I remember on Mordin's recruitment mission, when you're going to find his assistant. You tell the Batarian let him go and you can leave here I give you my word. The Batarian lets the guy go, and the renegade option is just to go back on your word and kill the Batarian anyway. It added nothing to achieving your overall goal, it was killing for the sake of killing, and too many renegade choices came out this way. Not how I see it. Example: To me - a Paragon is someone, who would never have shot Mordin - no matter what the justification might have been. The Renegade did what he considered necessary for the "Greater Good". R.I.P Mordin....*sniffle* But the point is - you had the choice. No soul-wrenching choices in MEA. I've now played ME1 five times, and the others several times as well. And every play-through was different. The various incarnations of Shepard were all enjoyable. Ryder is Vanilla - and I don't see any difference if I were to play MEA again.
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erikson
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by erikson on May 2, 2017 23:33:53 GMT
Paragon/Renegade never panned out to what it was supposed to be. Example: You have a prisoner and torturing prisoners is against rules. Paragon: We torture this prisoner we're no better than they are. Renegade: Our enemy doesn't play by the rules, why should we, torture this guy if it helps get the intel we need to win A Paragon should have been a person that held to a certain moral code, someone who was trying to be moral in an immoral world, and a Renegade should have been someone who took the world as it was and did what they felt they needed to do to change it even if they had to cross some lines. Somewhere along the way renegade decisions just turned into killing people for no reason sometimes. I remember on Mordin's recruitment mission, when you're going to find his assistant. You tell the Batarian let him go and you can leave here I give you my word. The Batarian lets the guy go, and the renegade option is just to go back on your word and kill the Batarian anyway. It added nothing to achieving your overall goal, it was killing for the sake of killing, and too many renegade choices came out this way. In many cases it coiuld have been renamed the Paragon/Psychopath option. My only instance of using a renegade dialouge choice was after the derelict collector because I wanted to express my anger at TIM. Shepard sounded so crazy and megalomaniacal I was expecing Edward G Robinson's voice to come out of her mouth rather than Jennifer Hale's. Last time I used a renegade dialouge choice.
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erikson
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Post by erikson on May 2, 2017 23:36:15 GMT
In my MT playthroughs the only renegade interupts I use are during the Archangel mission, when you're sabotaging all the mercs equipment. I have no idea how that can realistically be clased as "renegade" since you'll be shooting these mooks to death 20 minutes later anyway. It's strategy, not ruthlessness. If youve never played much of the renegade options in MET but enjoy roleplaying, you could have a great time weaving them in with some of the paragon choices. Instead of playing the game in 'color-coded' form it is a nice change of pace to choose some aspects of the renegade persona for a Shepard and pick the renegade dialogues now and then to whne they fit that character trait. I was able to create pretty consistent cold-professional characters and hothead characters that way (I rarely went for the earth-first renegade answers after the beginning of ME1 since I feel they are pretty much overwritten by the bigger story arc and I did not feel compelled to craft a bigot Shepard). To me it helped cut into the 'MarySue' taste of playing full Paragon and gave some depth to my Shepards. Thanks! I have tried a few of them out, and I admit, they are not for me. All of my chaarcters in any Bioware game go for the pure altruistic route. I am a goodie goodie it seems.
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Post by vonuber on May 2, 2017 23:41:00 GMT
I won't even go into when your crew just walks out on you during the meeting and they have you standing there looking all pitiful saying, well I didn't say the meeting was over. Then, of course, your Ryder makes a joke out of being disrespected by the crew/squad and does nothing. I was so hoping for an interrupt to say get the fuck back here, and then lay down the law on how things were going to work on the ship. That does happen at the second meeting. I'm not sure what else you want - it pretty much happens as you state you want it to.
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