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Post by AnDromedary on May 5, 2017 20:46:06 GMT
Because the question is "Would you trust SAM?" And my response in the first post I made was (paraphrased) "I trust SAM as much (or more) as anyone I know very well but I wouldn't trust myself to him in the same way Ryder did for reasons that have nothing to do with SAM specifically." IMO, that was a perfectly legitimate answer in this thread. Every further elaboration spawned from our follow=up discussion where I tried to clarify my position to you. I don't see a problem. neither do i. Well other than problems of language because when i was talking about SAM i was talking about beings with the same integration and abilities as SAM. So was I. |
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Post by beholderess on May 5, 2017 21:00:57 GMT
I'd trust an AI as much as I would trust an organic - that is, not much. It has nothing to do with SAM being artificial, and everything to do with SAM being a person. I wouldn't trust a human to have a kill switch in my head  That being said, Ryder's SAM has proven himself benevolent and trustworthy, and it is clear that keeping Ryder siblings safe is high on his personal agenda. Also, anyone else feels like SAM is invested in their Pathfinder's wellbeing in the same way as the player invested in their videogame character? Having a living and active Pathfinder is exactly as much a requirement for SAM to keep having new and interesting experiences as it is for the player to keep their character alive if they want to continue experiencing the game Well, Cora and Liam also have Pathfinder implants. And all would take is a little surgery to get others fitted with one  True, that. And SAM needs a Pathfinder, not necessary the particular Pathfinder. I am pretty sure that SAM could kill the Pathfinder if he was dissatisfied with them and thought their replacement would be better. I fully trust Ryder's SAM. He proved himself. But the important thing about SAMs is that they are persons, not just a bunch of software, and should be treated as such. A partner. Who can also kill you. This could work, but requires a lot of mutual trust and is not given lightly. |
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Iakus
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Iakus on May 5, 2017 21:11:15 GMT
And frankly, there are signs in the game that SAM does influence Ryder's being in a few ways, even if not deliberately. He suggests and concludes so much for you, he basically almost does control your actions within the game. Sure, you could disagree, probably but would you? How would you even know anymore if you could? And if something did go wrong, would you even know about that? Or would it just seem like you changed your own mind about something when in fact, your implants changed some hormone levels and neurotransmitter uptake, not necessarily because the other entity wants to manipulate you but just because that's what would help you in that situation. And then what if you disagree on something? Hmm, I wonder if this explains some of the complaints about Ryder's dialogue. WHy he/she doesn't seem so upset about Alec or the sibling. SAM is surreptitiously messing with Ryder's brain chemistry to alleviate grief and "help the Pathfinder focus" Purely for their own good of course  |
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Post by AnDromedary on May 5, 2017 21:17:13 GMT
Hmm, I wonder if this explains some of the complaints about Ryder's dialogue. WHy he/she doesn't seem so upset about Alec or the sibling. SAM is surreptitiously messing with Ryder's brain chemistry to alleviate grief and "help the Pathfinder focus" Purely for their own good of course I don't think BW wanted to go in this direction though. They seemed to do everything to make Ryder's and SAM's relationship completely symbiotic but separate somehow. It would be cool to see some acknowledgement of the dilemma's and grey areas that should logically come with this setup in a sequel, but at least for now, it doesn't look like BW wants to deal with these issues. |
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Post by beholderess on May 5, 2017 21:26:47 GMT
It has long been my headcanon that SAM messes with things like pain perception in combat, to prevent it from impacting Ryder's performance. Wouldnt be out of character for him to also adjust some emotional reactions - extremely high level of stress all the time is harmful, after all. So I like this idea. My only issue with it is that usually Ryder's SAM tells them what he is doing. He is a pretty honest being. But he doesnt have to |
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Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 21,298 Likes: 50,667
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Post by Iakus on May 5, 2017 21:28:00 GMT
Hmm, I wonder if this explains some of the complaints about Ryder's dialogue. WHy he/she doesn't seem so upset about Alec or the sibling. SAM is surreptitiously messing with Ryder's brain chemistry to alleviate grief and "help the Pathfinder focus" Purely for their own good of course I don't think BW wanted to go in this direction though. They seemed to do everything to make Ryder's and SAM's relationship completely symbiotic but separate somehow. It would be cool to see some acknowledgement of the dilemma's and grey areas that should logically come with this setup in a sequel, but at least for now, it doesn't look like BW wants to deal with these issues. Aw, come on! You think Sam wouldn't make Scott oversleep because it thinks he's been pushing himself too hard and needs rest? Or make Sara forget certain memories because they are "too traumatic"? Or make them hungry because they're looking a little undernourished...and while we're at it, give them a craving for Drack's new chili recipe...  |
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Post by AnDromedary on May 5, 2017 21:30:31 GMT
I don't think BW wanted to go in this direction though. They seemed to do everything to make Ryder's and SAM's relationship completely symbiotic but separate somehow. It would be cool to see some acknowledgement of the dilemma's and grey areas that should logically come with this setup in a sequel, but at least for now, it doesn't look like BW wants to deal with these issues. Aw, come on! You think Sam wouldn't make Scott oversleep because it thinks he's been pushing himself too hard and needs rest? Or make Sara forget certain memories because they are "too traumatic"? Or make them hungry because they're looking a little undernourished...and while we're at it, give them a craving for Drack's new chili recipe...  What if SAM pushed Sarah into the sex scene with Jaal because he is kinky? |
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Post by smilesja on May 5, 2017 23:21:14 GMT
First of all, I've got nothing against SAM, I think SAM is cool and I am also not afraid that he'd suddenly go berserk or something. I'd definitely work with SAM like Shepard and crew worked with EDI (probably even more so since SAM was created by a family member and not a shady and duplicitous terrorist organization). However, I wouldn't trust anyone with implants like those Ryder and the PF team got for themselves. It would freak me the hell out. And I am really not a Luddite, quite the contrary, I am all for cybernetics research and brain machine interfaces in real life. But something that interfaces so directly with my body and mind and has so much control over any aspect of my physiology, I would not want to have any intelligence. A machine that I can program and control, yes, sure but definitely not a sentient being (no matter if organic or synthetic in nature). I am too much of an individualist to share my body and mind with another entity, no matter how benign or useful it might be. So in my opinion, Ryder and the PF team are already badshit crazy for undergoing the procedure to get those implants in the first place. But hey, what do you expect from people who think they need to go into 600 year cryo sleep for a completely useless and super risky voyage to another galaxy just to be explorers, when they could literally do the exact same stuff in the MW? ME:A is a fun game but from time to time, I just burst out laughing about all those silly people that are in it. Well there are benefits with merging with SAM like the profiles, there are risks but SAM has proven himself capable throughout the game and presumably the other SAMS with their Pathfinders. |
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Post by colfoley on May 6, 2017 1:22:02 GMT
Aw, come on! You think Sam wouldn't make Scott oversleep because it thinks he's been pushing himself too hard and needs rest? Or make Sara forget certain memories because they are "too traumatic"? Or make them hungry because they're looking a little undernourished...and while we're at it, give them a craving for Drack's new chili recipe... What if SAM pushed Sarah into the sex scene with Jaal because he is kinky? while i did have the thought as well there is no evidence. What would be worse though is having SAM whispering suggestions in your head during intercourse. |
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n7ltrobbiesann7
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
XBL Gamertag: N7LtRobbiesanN7
PSN: N7LtRobbiesanN7
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Post by n7ltrobbiesann7 on May 6, 2017 1:26:00 GMT
The idea is exciting. The things that could be experienced. But, versus pretty heavy risks, I'd have to say no.
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Post by beholderess on May 6, 2017 1:55:34 GMT
What if SAM pushed Sarah into the sex scene with Jaal because he is kinky? while i did have the thought as well there is no evidence. What would be worse though is having SAM whispering suggestions in your head during intercourse. That should be a fic. "Pathfinder, changing your position to... would increase efficiency by 6.32%" |
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Post by paradigm on May 7, 2017 3:09:48 GMT
Personally, no. There was a time when the idea of a headjack was the coolest thing to me. Then came malware, adware and spam. Now I'm walking down the street and I'm suddenly screaming at people trying to sell them viagra. No way in hell, no computers in my head.
In the game, initially no. As others have said it's not a fear of machines/AI, I just wouldn't give anyone that kind of access to my brain.
That being said, in the context of the game, it's clear that it's a sacrifice that I'd begrudgingly be willing to make because apparently the lives of the entire Initiative depend on my success. So you gotta do what ya gotta do.
One thing makes me suspicious though and that's the idea that SAM is learning from me. Given the scope of sentient existence, trying to learn about sentience on a one person at a time basis seems ridiculous. Like saying you want to learn about the universe by spending all your time studying one atom. It sounds like BS to me and it would make me super reluctant.
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Post by djbare on May 7, 2017 4:10:02 GMT
In Andromeda, a big story point is the importance of S.A.M., your AI implant. Throughout the game, you'll hear a lot of arguments about the dangers of having an AI directly in your head, and there's even a sidequest revolving around an Anti-AI regime. But S.A.M. in the game is interesting. The idea behind an AI implant is that it's designed to be a symbiotic relationship. The AI gifts the user with enhancements to his/her physical and mental capabilities, while at the same time, the AI learns about the world through the user's experience. This raises a neat hypothetical question though. S.A.M. is capable of a lot of things, including killing you and somehow reviving you. With that knowledge, would you trust a S.A.M. implant in real life? Why or Why not? Not sure about real life AI, I'm not a fan of 'sentient' AI, it'll have the wrong people teaching it, by that I mean humans, as for SAM, I don't trust it now, it seems obvious to me that the mysterious benefactor will have had some say in it's programming, we know AI are capable of lying, especially if you do a certain mission. |
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Post by unwanted on May 7, 2017 6:14:21 GMT
Only if he went to my head.
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obatalaryder
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by obatalaryder on May 7, 2017 6:15:28 GMT
Knowing my father was the one who programmed it? Yes. As a required implant for a role to be filled? Still yes, but perhaps not as enthusiastically. Yeah I think Ryder trusting SAM makes complete sense to me. It's their father's passion project (that developed into fruition in part of their dying mother), one in which he put his entire life into it for it to succeed. Ryder wouldn't go to Andromeda period if they didn't believe in S.A.M. or their father's belief about AI. |
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gplayer
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I love nailing asari. So ageless and superior -- then you get them and they squeal like school girls
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Post by gplayer on May 7, 2017 10:56:19 GMT
I think the Technological aspect of SAM is interesting, but not key to the conversation. This is not so much about AI for me as it is sharing a conciousness with another entity. I don't think the question is would you work with an artificial intelligence - its would you be ok with a voice in your head?
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on May 7, 2017 11:32:50 GMT
This is a question of identity.
I think, in reading this entire idiotic thread, maybe two people understand this completely, and they posted and ran for the hills.
Anyone that wants an AI sharing their brain cavity, simply does not understand the implications of what they think they want.
In short, a person that wants this and really thinks it is a great idea is as dumb as paint. Sorry if that is a bitter pill to swallow, but ffs educate yourself on what logical implication means.
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Post by anddill on May 7, 2017 12:14:15 GMT
You actually do every day stuff machines told you to do. Its nothing new.
Walk some more steps to reach your fitness goal.
You have to leave to reach your goal in time.
Here you have some news that may interest you.
Eat less, your to fat.
Take an umbrella with you, it will rain today.
Stop here to let other cars pass.
And much more. You dont think about it, because generally it benefits you to follow your artificial overlords. And so AI will creep in our everyday lives, until we all are AI/Human hybrids. And no one will care aside from some nutjobs.
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Post by Psychevore on May 7, 2017 12:22:30 GMT
You actually do every day stuff machines told you to do. Its nothing new. Walk some more steps to reach your fitness goal. You have to leave to reach your goal in time. Here you have some news that may interest you. Eat less, your to fat. Take an umbrella with you, it will rain today. Stop here to let other cars pass. And much more. You dont think about it, because generally it benefits you to follow your artificial overlords. And so AI will creep in our everyday lives, until we all are AI/Human hybrids. And no one will care aside from some nutjobs. We won't be humans by that point anymore and that's fine. Or at least, not homo sapiens anymore but some other form of homo. Homo Deus. |
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Post by griffith82 on May 7, 2017 15:55:47 GMT
I don't know I don't have enough knowledge of S.A.M yet but EDI hell yes!!!
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Post by AnDromedary on May 7, 2017 17:45:27 GMT
while i did have the thought as well there is no evidence. What would be worse though is having SAM whispering suggestions in your head during intercourse. That should be a fic. "Pathfinder, changing your position to... would increase efficiency by 6.32%" "Pathfinder, I detect above normal temperature."  |
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Post by colfoley on May 7, 2017 18:53:38 GMT
You actually do every day stuff machines told you to do. Its nothing new. Walk some more steps to reach your fitness goal. You have to leave to reach your goal in time. Here you have some news that may interest you. Eat less, your to fat. Take an umbrella with you, it will rain today. Stop here to let other cars pass. And much more. You dont think about it, because generally it benefits you to follow your artificial overlords. And so AI will creep in our everyday lives, until we all are AI/Human hybrids. And no one will care aside from some nutjobs. 'would you kindly'? |
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Post by griffith82 on May 7, 2017 20:12:36 GMT
That should be a fic. "Pathfinder, changing your position to... would increase efficiency by 6.32%" "Pathfinder, I detect above normal temperature." What if Sam came on the radio every morning like this. |
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malgus
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by malgus on May 10, 2017 8:17:08 GMT
I would be careful with sam in real life but I would still trust him for the most part, nothing indicates he would go Hall9000, but I would not put too much responsability on him, AI are very complex.
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What if SAM pushed Sarah into the sex scene with Jaal because he is kinky? 
