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Post by mofojokers on May 5, 2017 14:22:53 GMT
"No art should be censored. Except MEA because I don't like it." I don't believe he said MEA should be censored. At least not in this thead. Definitely didn't say MEA should, if anything it needs more freedom for the creators. David Gaider (Dragon age bloke) said himself that he wished he didn't have to write in so much romance into games. Expectations and the need for games to be socially correct these days is getting old.
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Post by pessimistpanda on May 5, 2017 14:26:01 GMT
"No art should be censored. Except MEA because I don't like it." I don't believe he said MEA should be censored. At least not in this thead. How else would you describe the assertion that "political crap" needs to be removed? Removing a political message from a given media product sure sounds like censorship to me.
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Post by pessimistpanda on May 5, 2017 14:29:50 GMT
I don't believe he said MEA should be censored. At least not in this thead. Definitely didn't say MEA should, if anything it needs more freedom for the creators. David Gaider said himself that he wished he didn't have to write in so much romance into games. Well, hey, we agree that the game should have less romances. I suspect we will clash over which specific ones should be cut.
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Post by mofojokers on May 5, 2017 14:33:17 GMT
Definitely didn't say MEA should, if anything it needs more freedom for the creators. David Gaider said himself that he wished he didn't have to write in so much romance into games. Well, hey, we agree that the game should have less romances. I suspect we will clash over which specific ones should be cut. O we definitely wouldn't lol... The romance side of ME has never been big for me. I'm more for the return of old school renegade choices if anything. Some called it choices that went too far but i always enjoyed the ruthless / fearless hero style.
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Post by pessimistpanda on May 5, 2017 14:41:29 GMT
Well, hey, we agree that the game should have less romances. I suspect we will clash over which specific ones should be cut. O we definitely wouldn't lol... The romance side of ME has never been big for me. I'm more for the return of old school renegade choices if anything. Some called it choices that went too far but i always enjoyed the ruthless / fearless hero style. Okay, so you'd be cool with it if the straight female romances got cut and an extra gay guy was added to the game instead? I care about the romance aspect and you don't, so we both win, right?
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Post by CrutchCricket on May 5, 2017 14:42:30 GMT
How else would you describe the assertion that "political crap" needs to be removed? Removing a political message from a given media product sure sounds like censorship to me. I recall him saying political correctness. Whether PC is itself a political statement is debatable. And in other news I don't agree with removing romances. I can get behind making them more efficient though.
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Post by kelarqshah on May 5, 2017 14:50:05 GMT
It would be nice if LGBT diversity was treated naturally instead of lecturing the player at every opportunity. That Iron Bull conversation still makes me mad Which one, I wonder? But yeah, I agree. I think sometimes when you go all out rage-mode on the SJW-topics people assume it's because you must hate diversity or live under a rock or that you are a really right-winged idiot or whatever, but it really comes down to one thing: I want to be immersed and I don't want to be patronized. I know there's a lot of infighting over the rights of LGBT+ and race equality right now and so-called "white-supremacy" that indeed does plague games because of how big corporates like EA have set a precedent that pretty much (in the past at least) locked out black protagonists from a "limited marketing potential" or what have you, but you can tell when peer-pressure or pandering takes over as the no. 1 reason why people inside the games are suddenly making points that sound like your everyday social media babble. It's that simple. Just don't make it patronizing and don't pick one side of a political standpoint and try to force it down over your players. I know people hate Trump and they're desperate right now, but when I'm playing a video game I'm specifically not thinking about those things, and also I'm not american so it all looks like a big puppet show from where I live which only makes it extra annoying and america-centric when issues related are brought up too heavy-handedly. I totally agree. One issue that I do take though when people do go rage-mode on SJW topics like this is that their first allegation is usually 'Bioware is pandering to SJWs' and 'forcing it down my throat', when for me my first allegation is simply 'this is awful writing,' on a par with forced exposition, cringe-worthy dialogue etc. Bioware have shown with characters like Krem that they can represent minority groups in a more meaningful way that actually contributes to our understanding of the world and the lore. MEA drops the ball there, as it does in pretty much every other area. I don't think trying to be inclusive and representative is pandering. Doing it lazily for the sake of a box-ticking exercise is. Just look at Hainly on Eos, which was handled so borderline offensively it ended up upsetting the very group it was trying to represent.
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Post by mofojokers on May 5, 2017 14:50:51 GMT
O we definitely wouldn't lol... The romance side of ME has never been big for me. I'm more for the return of old school renegade choices if anything. Some called it choices that went too far but i always enjoyed the ruthless / fearless hero style. Okay, so you'd be cool with it if the straight female romances got cut and an extra gay guy was added to the game instead? I care about the romance aspect and you don't, so we both win, right? Depends if that's what they truly wanted to do and not what was just correct. Should point out : The Witcher 3 God Of War 1 - 3 Doom These are some of my favorite games because they are not defined by whats considered correct. They just tell some really amazing stories with nothing hidden. Well besides Doom story but that was picked on for its excessive violence...
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Post by pessimistpanda on May 5, 2017 14:54:53 GMT
How else would you describe the assertion that "political crap" needs to be removed? Removing a political message from a given media product sure sounds like censorship to me. I recall him saying political correctness. Whether PC is itself a political statement is debatable. I would assert that ALL statements are political, regardless of intention, and that being silent on an issue is itself a statement. The ME games were not an apolitical utopia when they lacked LGBT characters. Keeping LGBT characters out of media is a policy espoused by many. When people say something is "non-political", all they really mean is that it didn't offend them personally. Maybe the ME OT didn't offend you, or anyone else in this thread. But seeing a company almost completely ignore its LGBT audience while going deliberately out of its way to craft extra content that will appeal to heterosexual players is offensive to me, and to many other posters on this forum.
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danishgambit
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Post by danishgambit on May 5, 2017 14:59:25 GMT
The same thing happened in Dragon Age with the Qun. The idea of demons falling out of the sky and killing everyone was believable but the idea of a civilization of males that put women in secondary roles was unthinkable. So they retconned the Qun to make them more PC which is just ridiculous when you realize that the Qun thinks that cutting out the tounges of mages so they can't talk is a good idea. They used to be Kilingon-lite but now they're just totally inconsistent.
Anyway I think the idea of a civilization having controversial views is just something that they're afraid that the viewers aren't mature enough to handle and that if every society isn't about holding hands and singing kumbayah then it can't be written into a story. Just imagine how dull and uninspired something like Game of Thrones would be if they did something like that... I still do a double-take when people try to compare Dragon Age to game of thrones. There are no cardboard villians in GOT and you get to see the good side of everyone. But ok I'm going off topic now...
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Post by danishgambit on May 5, 2017 15:04:17 GMT
Which one, I wonder? But yeah, I agree. I think sometimes when you go all out rage-mode on the SJW-topics people assume it's because you must hate diversity or live under a rock or that you are a really right-winged idiot or whatever, but it really comes down to one thing: I want to be immersed and I don't want to be patronized. I know there's a lot of infighting over the rights of LGBT+ and race equality right now and so-called "white-supremacy" that indeed does plague games because of how big corporates like EA have set a precedent that pretty much (in the past at least) locked out black protagonists from a "limited marketing potential" or what have you, but you can tell when peer-pressure or pandering takes over as the no. 1 reason why people inside the games are suddenly making points that sound like your everyday social media babble. It's that simple. Just don't make it patronizing and don't pick one side of a political standpoint and try to force it down over your players. I know people hate Trump and they're desperate right now, but when I'm playing a video game I'm specifically not thinking about those things, and also I'm not american so it all looks like a big puppet show from where I live which only makes it extra annoying and america-centric when issues related are brought up too heavy-handedly. I totally agree. One issue that I do take though when people do go rage-mode on SJW topics like this is that their first allegation is usually 'Bioware is pandering to SJWs' and 'forcing it down my throat', when for me my first allegation is simply 'this is awful writing,' on a par with forced exposition, cringe-worthy dialogue etc. Bioware have shown with characters like Krem that they can represent minority groups in a more meaningful way that actually contributes to our understanding of the world and the lore. MEA drops the ball there, as it does in pretty much every other area. I don't think trying to be inclusive and representative is pandering. Doing it lazily for the sake of a box-ticking exercise is. Just look at Hainly on Eos, which was handled so borderline offensively it ended up upsetting the very group it was trying to represent. Krem was definitely preachy at some points. In fact at one point the game railroads you into either asking when Krem knew he wanted to be a guy (something which no one would ever ask and isn't any of my business anyway) or to be a total dick to him in three different ways and look like some kind of asshole. Then he preaches about who he is and how you need to respect it. It's cringe-worthy and it's there.
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Post by mofojokers on May 5, 2017 15:05:48 GMT
The same thing happened in Dragon Age with the Qun. The idea of demons falling out of the sky and killing everyone was believable but the idea of a civilization of males that put women in secondary roles was unthinkable. So they retconned the Qun to make them more PC which is just ridiculous when you realize that the Qun thinks that cutting out the tounges of mages so they can't talk is a good idea. They used to be Kilingon-lite but now they're just totally inconsistent. Anyway I think the idea of a civilization having controversial views is just something that they're afraid that the viewers aren't mature enough to handle and that if every society isn't about holding hands and singing kumbayah then it can't be written into a story. Just imagine how dull and uninspired something like Game of Thrones would be if they did something like that... I still do a double-take when people try to compare Dragon Age to game of thrones. There are no cardboard villians in GOT and you get to see the good side of everyone. But ok I'm going off topic now... This is my biggest fear danishgambit is that this is the future of video games. Every single race , sex, religious view and person identity must be all equal footing. If they are even a margin off watch out creators of said video games!. I have no issues with any of it but as i said above. When it affects art and things start to move to one direction because its correct... then it annoys me.😧 Things then tend to suffer because the checklist of what has to be in grows even larger and larger.
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Post by dmc1001 on May 5, 2017 15:07:42 GMT
I think the whole thing is stupid, but we can get some weak logic. It's like how asari use the word "father" to denote the parent that does not give birth to the child. Perhaps some asari only go the "father" route and use the male pronoun as a result. Like I said, I know it's weak, and even having that pop up in this game was dumb, but maybe it can fit in somehow. Anyway, a handful asari using the male pronoun could still constitute "some" and not contradict Aria in any meaningful way.
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Post by alanc9 on May 5, 2017 15:12:40 GMT
I totally agree. One issue that I do take though when people do go rage-mode on SJW topics like this is that their first allegation is usually 'Bioware is pandering to SJWs' and 'forcing it down my throat', when for me my first allegation is simply 'this is awful writing,' on a par with forced exposition, cringe-worthy dialogue etc. Bioware have shown with characters like Krem that they can represent minority groups in a more meaningful way that actually contributes to our understanding of the world and the lore. MEA drops the ball there, as it does in pretty much every other area. I don't think trying to be inclusive and representative is pandering. Doing it lazily for the sake of a box-ticking exercise is. Just look at Hainly on Eos, which was handled so borderline offensively it ended up upsetting the very group it was trying to represent. Krem was definitely preachy at some points. In fact at one point the game railroads you into either asking when Krem knew he wanted to be a guy (something which no one would ever ask and isn't any of my business anyway) or to be a total dick to him in three different ways and look like some kind of asshole. Then he preaches about who he is and how you need to respect it. It's cringe-worthy and it's there. This is false. The PC doesn't have to use those investigate options.
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Post by alanc9 on May 5, 2017 15:21:49 GMT
The same thing happened in Dragon Age with the Qun. The idea of demons falling out of the sky and killing everyone was believable but the idea of a civilization of males that put women in secondary roles was unthinkable. So they retconned the Qun to make them more PC which is just ridiculous when you realize that the Qun thinks that cutting out the tounges of mages so they can't talk is a good idea. They used to be Kilingon-lite but now they're just totally inconsistent. This theory doesn't match the evidence too well. Have you ever really examined Sten's conversation? There's no actual contradiction. Thanks mostly to the Warden not asking some perfectly obvious questions, and a bit to Sten's laconic style, we don't really leave the convo with a clear understanding of how gender operates under the Qun. So most players slotted in standard-issue patriarchy and figured we knew what was going on. The standard pattern for DA lore is for material to be presented in a way that allows or even encourages player misinterpretation. For instance, the lore on magic comes from Circle mages, and it turns out that their opinion on magic is about as accurate as Aristotle's on physics. Why should the Qun have been different in this regard?
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Post by danishgambit on May 5, 2017 15:21:53 GMT
Krem was definitely preachy at some points. In fact at one point the game railroads you into either asking when Krem knew he wanted to be a guy (something which no one would ever ask and isn't any of my business anyway) or to be a total dick to him in three different ways and look like some kind of asshole. Then he preaches about who he is and how you need to respect it. It's cringe-worthy and it's there. This is false. The PC doesn't have to use those investigate options. Well I mean no but why wouldn't you? Is it realistic to expect people to just decide not see this part of the game because it's framed badly? Unless you're sure that the convo is going to lead to something concrete like a change in a relationship or something I don't see why anyone would just avoid it.
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Post by CrutchCricket on May 5, 2017 15:22:40 GMT
I would assert that ALL statements are political, regardless of intention, and that being silent on an issue is itself a statement. The ME games were not an apolitical utopia when they lacked LGBT characters. Keeping LGBT characters out of media is a policy espoused by many. When people say something is "non-political", all they really mean is that it didn't offend them personally. Maybe the ME OT didn't offend you, or anyone else in this thread. But seeing a company almost completely ignore its LGBT audience while going deliberately out of its way to craft extra content that will appeal to heterosexual players is offensive to me, and to many other posters on this forum. If you say so. The place for political statements on this forum however, is that way -> bsn.boards.net/thread/3573/political-discussion-2We now return to the topic of this thread.
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Post by alanc9 on May 5, 2017 15:28:38 GMT
This is false. The PC doesn't have to use those investigate options. Well I mean no but why wouldn't you? Is it realistic to expect people to just decide not see this part of the game because it's framed badly? Unless you're sure that the convo is going to lead to something concrete like a change in a relationship or something I don't see why anyone would just avoid it. You don't avoid the convo. You just avoid picking that path through it. If my PC is an asshole, I need to have opportunities for him to act like an asshole. Most of my PCs aren't, though, and don't choose those options. And there's a genuine investigate option for a curious PC too. If anything, DAI needed more opportunities for bad PC behavior.
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Post by KaiserShep on May 5, 2017 15:30:31 GMT
This is false. The PC doesn't have to use those investigate options. Well I mean no but why wouldn't you? Is it realistic to expect people to just decide not see this part of the game because it's framed badly? Unless you're sure that the convo is going to lead to something concrete like a change in a relationship or something I don't see why anyone would just avoid it. I didn't pick it because I didn't think it was pertinent to the discussion, and really, I didn't care. I never really knew the exact words in that dialogue option, but I pretty much knew the gist from the paraphrase. The Inquisitor was there to shoot the shit with the Chargers, not put any one of them on the spot. My Inquisitor did go into the subject more later, when Krem was alone, however. It's like the asari mating dialogue in ME1. It's dumb as hell, so I knew not to pick it.
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Post by kelarqshah on May 5, 2017 15:38:39 GMT
I totally agree. One issue that I do take though when people do go rage-mode on SJW topics like this is that their first allegation is usually 'Bioware is pandering to SJWs' and 'forcing it down my throat', when for me my first allegation is simply 'this is awful writing,' on a par with forced exposition, cringe-worthy dialogue etc. Bioware have shown with characters like Krem that they can represent minority groups in a more meaningful way that actually contributes to our understanding of the world and the lore. MEA drops the ball there, as it does in pretty much every other area. I don't think trying to be inclusive and representative is pandering. Doing it lazily for the sake of a box-ticking exercise is. Just look at Hainly on Eos, which was handled so borderline offensively it ended up upsetting the very group it was trying to represent. Krem was definitely preachy at some points. In fact at one point the game railroads you into either asking when Krem knew he wanted to be a guy (something which no one would ever ask and isn't any of my business anyway) or to be a total dick to him in three different ways and look like some kind of asshole. Then he preaches about who he is and how you need to respect it. It's cringe-worthy and it's there. I'd agree the Quizzy's dialogue options left a lot to be desired. Definitely didn't find Krem preachy though. My point being though that Krem's presence shed more light on Qunari gender roles, which from conversations with Sten in DAO seemed rather rigid. It helped develop Qunari culture and Iron Bull as a character, rather than being a token addition
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Post by flyingovertrout on May 5, 2017 15:41:26 GMT
Oh it's a lulzarius thread. Oh look, linkesnki whined again.
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Post by danishgambit on May 5, 2017 15:41:43 GMT
The same thing happened in Dragon Age with the Qun. The idea of demons falling out of the sky and killing everyone was believable but the idea of a civilization of males that put women in secondary roles was unthinkable. So they retconned the Qun to make them more PC which is just ridiculous when you realize that the Qun thinks that cutting out the tounges of mages so they can't talk is a good idea. They used to be Kilingon-lite but now they're just totally inconsistent. This theory doesn't match the evidence too well. Have you ever really examined Sten's conversation? There's no actual contradiction. Thanks mostly to the Warden not asking some perfectly obvious questions, and a bit to Sten's laconic style, we don't really leave the convo with a clear understanding of how gender operates under the Qun. So most players slotted in standard-issue patriarchy and figured we knew what was going on. The standard pattern for DA lore is for material to be presented in a way that allows or even encourages player misinterpretation. For instance, the lore on magic comes from Circle mages, and it turns out that their opinion on magic is about as accurate as Aristotle's on physics. Why should the Qun have been different in this regard? But there are some things he's up front about like how women can't be warriors and that they are supposed to do other things in society. I think he only brings this up with the female warden though.
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Post by Eterna on May 5, 2017 15:44:59 GMT
Are you people just bored at this point?
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August 2016
kaisershep
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by KaiserShep on May 5, 2017 15:49:28 GMT
Are you people just bored at this point?
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Light
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 109 Likes: 157
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Light
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Apr 15, 2017 12:38:16 GMT
April 2017
light
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Light on May 5, 2017 15:54:57 GMT
I think so. This is not the topic we started out with.
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