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Post by alanc9 on May 6, 2017 2:47:37 GMT
It makes sense for The Iron Bull -- to use it properly -- to believe that about Cassandra, even if it's wrong. The Qun approach seems to be that while personalities might be innate, beliefs are malleable. And the qunari have had a high success rate with that, although they achieve their success rate by breaking the failures. I didn't see the Qun caste system as alien. Alien to me personally, sure, since I grew up in 20th century America (smug New York liberal subgroup). But rigid caste systems have plenty of historical precedent. The personal name thing is a bit much, though. (FWIW, I've never got that dialogue with any of my Wardens.) I still don't see what you were getting at earlier. How did Bull humanize the Qun? To me, the Qun has little room for personalities or individuality of any kind. Under the Qun, you aren't a person, you're part of a greater whole. Which is what makes it alien to me. No human government or society (except maybe some of the most reclusive of cults) so completely buries the individual. No matter how jingoistic the people, no matter how they may preach "one nation" or "one people" the Qunari took it to eleven. They are practically the borg "you will be assimilated". To the point where if you stop believing in the Qun you stop being Qunari. Like when Hawke asked the Arishok how many Qunari he lost to the Tal-Vashoth. The answer was "None" Bull humanizes it by, well, acting like a human. Making the Qun seem like just another empire, not so different from Tevinter. That's clearer. But Sten never felt inhuman to me , so I'm not really able to share the perspective..
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Post by KaiserShep on May 6, 2017 2:48:52 GMT
Sten liked cookies. Clearly a Tal-Vashoth in the making.
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Post by erikson on May 6, 2017 2:56:59 GMT
To me, the Qun has little room for personalities or individuality of any kind. Under the Qun, you aren't a person, you're part of a greater whole. Which is what makes it alien to me. No human government or society (except maybe some of the most reclusive of cults) so completely buries the individual. No matter how jingoistic the people, no matter how they may preach "one nation" or "one people" the Qunari took it to eleven. They are practically the borg "you will be assimilated". To the point where if you stop believing in the Qun you stop being Qunari. Like when Hawke asked the Arishok how many Qunari he lost to the Tal-Vashoth. The answer was "None" Bull humanizes it by, well, acting like a human. Making the Qun seem like just another empire, not so different from Tevinter. That's clearer. But Sten never felt inhuman to me , so I'm not really able to share the perspective.. He wasn't inhuman, he was just monotone and not terribly engaging. He sounded like a brainwashed cultist (which is what a Qunari should sound like). Bull sounds like a frat boy on spring break. He is more fun, but doesn't make any sense.
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Post by KaiserShep on May 6, 2017 3:09:23 GMT
That's clearer. But Sten never felt inhuman to me , so I'm not really able to share the perspective.. He wasn't inhuman, he was just monotone and not terribly engaging. He sounded like a brainwashed cultist (which is what a Qunari should sound like). Bull sounds like a frat boy on spring break. He is more fun, but doesn't make any sense. Well, he is a field agent who has to mingle with other people throughout Thedas, so he wouldn't get far if he behaved like those hardline Qunari that speak in absolutes like Sten. Tallis wasn't very different from him.
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Post by erikson on May 6, 2017 3:11:42 GMT
He wasn't inhuman, he was just monotone and not terribly engaging. He sounded like a brainwashed cultist (which is what a Qunari should sound like). Bull sounds like a frat boy on spring break. He is more fun, but doesn't make any sense. Well, he is a field agent who has to mingle with other people throughout Thedas, so he wouldn't get far if he behaved like those hardline Qunari that speak in absolutes like Sten. Tallis wasn't very different from him. True, but Talis was not a life long Qunari lke Bull (remind me, doesn't she say in DA2 they usually use converts for those kind of jobs). I think they should really have some lore dialogue explaining how covert agents are trained to not be wooden bricks while out and about in the rest of Thedas.
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Post by Iakus on May 6, 2017 3:32:18 GMT
That's clearer. But Sten never felt inhuman to me , so I'm not really able to share the perspective.. He wasn't inhuman, he was just monotone and not terribly engaging. He sounded like a brainwashed cultist (which is what a Qunari should sound like). Bull sounds like a frat boy on spring break. He is more fun, but doesn't make any sense. The monotone was part of his alienness. The codex even said, few Qunari speak the common tongue, and even fewer speak it well.
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Post by erikson on May 6, 2017 3:38:26 GMT
He wasn't inhuman, he was just monotone and not terribly engaging. He sounded like a brainwashed cultist (which is what a Qunari should sound like). Bull sounds like a frat boy on spring break. He is more fun, but doesn't make any sense. The monotone was part of his alienness. The codex even said, few Qunari speak the common tongue, and even fewer speak it well. Agreed, but even that description is not beyond human experience. I was just trying to tailor my explanaition to what I though the questioner's issue was.
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Post by Cyberstrike on May 6, 2017 12:46:51 GMT
This conflicts with the gender pronoun conversation the Asari have in Mass Effect Andromeda: Asari use the word "father" to describe the parent (regardless of gender) that doesn't give birth to their daughters. Atheytha tells Shepard in no uncertain terms that she is Liara's father and not her "other mother" (which is the human term) and gets upset/annoyed about it and also if patriarch had no meaning for asari then how did Aria know about it or what it means? Also why would that be offensive to a krogan? I mean Drack is a pretty close to being a literal patriarch he has had at least one child (Kesh's parent), a granddaughter, and great-grandchildren by the end of ME:A. He is the eldest male of family which would make him the patriarch of said family. In other words your argument is easily countered and is really pointless and this whole "debate" or argument is just downright stupid. Unless you're just being a transphobic troll. Then you can fuck yourself.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on May 6, 2017 13:12:26 GMT
Which one, I wonder? But yeah, I agree. I think sometimes when you go all out rage-mode on the SJW-topics people assume it's because you must hate diversity or live under a rock or that you are a really right-winged idiot or whatever, but it really comes down to one thing: I want to be immersed and I don't want to be patronized. I know there's a lot of infighting over the rights of LGBT+ and race equality right now and so-called "white-supremacy" that indeed does plague games because of how big corporates like EA have set a precedent that pretty much (in the past at least) locked out black protagonists from a "limited marketing potential" or what have you, but you can tell when peer-pressure or pandering takes over as the no. 1 reason why people inside the games are suddenly making points that sound like your everyday social media babble. It's that simple. Just don't make it patronizing and don't pick one side of a political standpoint and try to force it down over your players. I know people hate Trump and they're desperate right now, but when I'm playing a video game I'm specifically not thinking about those things, and also I'm not american so it all looks like a big puppet show from where I live which only makes it extra annoying and america-centric when issues related are brought up too heavy-handedly. This baffles me, can someone please point out the SJW politics in this game? Where is the game lecturing you or taking a political position? Are you just triggered by the words "bigot" being in the game? So if the character oposses bigotry it is now SJW politics? I bought into the hypocrisy of youtube rants.
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Post by Sifr on May 6, 2017 13:35:14 GMT
Well, he is a field agent who has to mingle with other people throughout Thedas, so he wouldn't get far if he behaved like those hardline Qunari that speak in absolutes like Sten. Tallis wasn't very different from him. And the fact that Sten (and the Arishok) were members of the military, whereas Bull and Tallis are both spies. The Antaam and Ben-Hassrath are meant for fight their enemies and the other is meant to infiltrate them, so their training would probably be radically different. Could be that members of the Antaam only appear this way because they're the most visible representation of the Qunari in Thedas, so it's drilled into them that around bas they must project a sense of order and discipline at all times. That's why after the Arishok lost his temper and ransacked Kirkwall, the Qunari were so adamant that they would "never speak of this again", as well as another reason why Sten felt so ashamed that he lost control and slaughtered innocent farmers. Might also explain why in Sten's Nightmare in Origins, his Qunari comrades appear far more jocular and lighthearted. Rather than the demons getting their personality "wrong" as Sten claims, this might actually be more how Qunari soldiers act when no bas are around for them to keep up the pretense for. The Qunari would probably find it deeply embarrassing to be caught slipping up like this, especially in front of bas, since they want to pretend they're above it all.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on May 6, 2017 13:37:15 GMT
To me, the Qun has little room for personalities or individuality of any kind. Under the Qun, you aren't a person, you're part of a greater whole. Which is what makes it alien to me. No human government or society (except maybe some of the most reclusive of cults) so completely buries the individual. No matter how jingoistic the people, no matter how they may preach "one nation" or "one people" the Qunari took it to eleven. They are practically the borg "you will be assimilated". To the point where if you stop believing in the Qun you stop being Qunari. Like when Hawke asked the Arishok how many Qunari he lost to the Tal-Vashoth. The answer was "None" Bull humanizes it by, well, acting like a human. Making the Qun seem like just another empire, not so different from Tevinter. To be honest, and I like the character, but Bull doesn't feel like he'd really fit in the Qun at all. The level of personality, and individuality he shows doesn't really fit the way a self-negating cult would work. That's kinda who he is though. He's a spy for the Qun and I think he has been for a while by the time of DA:I. He has his Chargers and I think what the implication is, is that he's far removed from his people and he likes that because he can allow himself to be different when his clansmen are not there to enforce their Qunari ways on him. That's also why the Chargers are diverse and why he makes a point out of Krem being a man when, according to the Qun there is no gender (or everyone is something specific, I can't remember, but Sten says it in Origins). That's why the choice in his companion quest is to fulfil his job as a Qun and sacrifice the Chargers or fuck the Qun and be who he really is.
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Post by erikson on May 6, 2017 23:27:29 GMT
To be honest, and I like the character, but Bull doesn't feel like he'd really fit in the Qun at all. The level of personality, and individuality he shows doesn't really fit the way a self-negating cult would work. That's kinda who he is though. He's a spy for the Qun and I think he has been for a while by the time of DA:I. He has his Chargers and I think what the implication is, is that he's far removed from his people and he likes that because he can allow himself to be different when his clansmen are not there to enforce their Qunari ways on him. That's also why the Chargers are diverse and why he makes a point out of Krem being a man when, according to the Qun there is no gender (or everyone is something specific, I can't remember, but Sten says it in Origins). That's why the choice in his companion quest is to fulfil his job as a Qun and sacrifice the Chargers or fuck the Qun and be who he really is. I get that, it still doesn't make much sense to me, since he was raised in the Qun his whole life, and the story gives no hint of how he developed an actual personality. In DA2 doesn't Talis say they usually use converts like her for covert actions?
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Post by erikson on May 6, 2017 23:28:01 GMT
This baffles me, can someone please point out the SJW politics in this game? Where is the game lecturing you or taking a political position? Are you just triggered by the words "bigot" being in the game? So if the character oposses bigotry it is now SJW politics? I bought into the hypocrisy of youtube rants. Can you explain?
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Post by Psychevore on May 6, 2017 23:43:55 GMT
Even if the Asari don't have gender specific pronouns originally, they WILL have them after meeting species that do have gender specific pronouns. Even if just because the universal translator will be forced to teach them (unless it's programmed to be completely insensitive to what each species actually is, which I think is highly unlikely because that would lead to a lot of diplomatic shit ) edit: I pretty much blame all of this nonsense on the writers never really thinking through the effects of the universal translator. Not just in ME:A, but in the entire OT.
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Post by Mihura on May 7, 2017 0:13:30 GMT
This conflicts with the gender pronoun conversation the Asari have in Mass Effect Andromeda: Well there is a lot of things Bioware does, that makes no sense. If it is true that Asari do not have male ids or concepts why the fuck are they attract to males? Shouldnt that be seen has to strange and weird. They were created to be sexy blue babes that fuck everyone in the galaxy. So ya I am not really that mad at the lore being altered here, it is for the best.
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Post by Cyberstrike on May 7, 2017 0:27:44 GMT
This conflicts with the gender pronoun conversation the Asari have in Mass Effect Andromeda: Well there is a lot of things Bioware does, that makes no sense. If it is true that Asari do not have male ids or concepts why the fuck are they attract to males? Shouldnt that be seen has to strange and weird. They were created to be sexy blue babes that fuck everyone in the galaxy. So ya I am not really that mad at the lore being altered here, it is for the best. Liara in ME1 says that male and female have no or very little meaning to the asari but because they have material instincts that is why other races considered them "female" which is pretty flimsy reasoning when you think about it.
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2017 0:31:29 GMT
So are the writers using the Asari as a way to inject their transgender politics into the game? Is that the prevailing wisdom?
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Post by KaiserShep on May 7, 2017 0:33:53 GMT
Even if the Asari don't have gender specific pronouns originally, they WILL have them after meeting species that do have gender specific pronouns. Even if just because the universal translator will be forced to teach them (unless it's programmed to be completely insensitive to what each species actually is, which I think is highly unlikely because that would lead to a lot of diplomatic shit ) edit: I pretty much blame all of this nonsense on the writers never really thinking through the effects of the universal translator. Not just in ME:A, but in the entire OT. The translator was always kind of weird. I remember the archive in the Citadel DLC with the captured human during the First Contact War talking to those turian dicks and wondering how humans already had translators when they weren't part of the galactic community yet.
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Post by erikson on May 7, 2017 0:38:12 GMT
Even if the Asari don't have gender specific pronouns originally, they WILL have them after meeting species that do have gender specific pronouns. Even if just because the universal translator will be forced to teach them (unless it's programmed to be completely insensitive to what each species actually is, which I think is highly unlikely because that would lead to a lot of diplomatic shit ) edit: I pretty much blame all of this nonsense on the writers never really thinking through the effects of the universal translator. Not just in ME:A, but in the entire OT. The translator was always kind of weird. I remember the archive in the Citadel DLC with the captured human during the First Contact War talking to those turian dicks and wondering how humans already had translators when they weren't part of the galactic community yet. Same way as the Transformers. Watching youtube videos apparently.
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Post by alanc9 on May 7, 2017 0:43:44 GMT
Not much of an alternative to calling asari "she," etc., in English. When ME1 was written the unisex "they" wasn't yet a thing. I don't really see much of an issue here. If an alien language used different pronouns based on, say, your Meyers-Briggs type, I'd probably want to use whatever pronoun they use for an INTP when talking to one, even if I don't think that this is really a thing.
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Post by Cyan_Griffonclaw on May 7, 2017 0:52:09 GMT
Well, he is a field agent who has to mingle with other people throughout Thedas, so he wouldn't get far if he behaved like those hardline Qunari that speak in absolutes like Sten. Tallis wasn't very different from him. And the fact that Sten (and the Arishok) were members of the military, whereas Bull and Tallis are both spies. The Antaam and Ben-Hassrath are meant for fight their enemies and the other is meant to infiltrate them, so their training would probably be radically different. Could be that members of the Antaam only appear this way because they're the most visible representation of the Qunari in Thedas, so it's drilled into them that around bas they must project a sense of order and discipline at all times. That's why after the Arishok lost his temper and ransacked Kirkwall, the Qunari were so adamant that they would "never speak of this again", as well as another reason why Sten felt so ashamed that he lost control and slaughtered innocent farmers. Might also explain why in Sten's Nightmare in Origins, his Qunari comrades appear far more jocular and lighthearted. Rather than the demons getting their personality "wrong" as Sten claims, this might actually be more how Qunari soldiers act when no bas are around for them to keep up the pretense for. The Qunari would probably find it deeply embarrassing to be caught slipping up like this, especially in front of bas, since they want to pretend they're above it all. Wow. +100 for Lore.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on May 7, 2017 0:57:20 GMT
I bought into the hypocrisy of youtube rants. Can you explain? I may have gone a bit far into the deep end of blowing the "SJW" problems of this game out of proportion because of some Youtube videos I saw about the game. I didn't ever stumble into the pronoun conversation in my playthrough and I didn't get that triggered initially at the "no bigots allowed" line even though I did maybe roll my eyes because, here was an opportunity to show us what it's like to meet a new alien who wants to get to know us for the first time as he has become part of our crew and they pull the "we're all in this together" card where they shove any potential tension or racial difference under the rug to promote what is going on in the world right now which is the totally forced acceptance and tolerance of everything that's different from yourself for the sake of being politically correct. Also disregarding what respect means or IMO the beauty of cultural difference which is exactly that we're not always going to be on the same page. Andromeda disregards this so completely by labeling Javik a "bigot" (albeit in jest) for suggesting that being with "aliens" is a bit weird for him. That harkens back to my praise of the Patriarch quest and how that was an excellent use of Mass Effect as a cornerstone for a feminist idea that showed the uniqueness and strength of this series rather than shying away from it and that harkens back to my rant where I called all of BioWare "idiots" when it comes to this game.
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Post by erikson on May 7, 2017 1:11:59 GMT
I may have gone a bit far into the deep end of blowing the "SJW" problems of this game out of proportion because of some Youtube videos I saw about the game. I didn't ever stumble into the pronoun conversation in my playthrough and I didn't get that triggered initially at the "no bigots allowed" line even though I did maybe roll my eyes because, here was an opportunity to show us what it's like to meet a new alien who wants to get to know us for the first time as he has become part of our crew and they pull the "we're all in this together" card where they shove any potential tension or racial difference under the rug to promote what is going on in the world right now which is the totally forced acceptance and tolerance of everything that's different from yourself for the sake of being politically correct. Also disregarding what respect means or IMO the beauty of cultural difference which is exactly that we're not always going to be on the same page. Andromeda disregards this so completely by labeling Javik a "bigot" (albeit in jest) for suggesting that being with "aliens" is a bit weird for him. That harkens back to my praise of the Patriarch quest and how that was an excellent use of Mass Effect as a cornerstone for a feminist idea that showed the uniqueness and strength of this series rather than shying away from it and that harkens back to my rant where I called all of BioWare "idiots" when it comes to this game. Ok, I understand, fair enough. Thanks for the clarification.
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Mihura
N4
“Major Wulf Khan and the 903rd Catachan ‘Night Shrikes’…”
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: MihuraL
Posts: 1,303 Likes: 2,754
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“Major Wulf Khan and the 903rd Catachan ‘Night Shrikes’…”
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mihura
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
MihuraL
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Post by Mihura on May 7, 2017 1:46:18 GMT
Well there is a lot of things Bioware does, that makes no sense. If it is true that Asari do not have male ids or concepts why the fuck are they attract to males? Shouldnt that be seen has to strange and weird. They were created to be sexy blue babes that fuck everyone in the galaxy. So ya I am not really that mad at the lore being altered here, it is for the best. Liara in ME1 says that male and female have no or very little meaning to the asari but because they have material instincts that is why other races considered them "female" which is pretty flimsy reasoning when you think about it. All the lore in ME 1 is weird when it comes to Asari because there were not created to challenged human notions of culture or an all female race. It was for fanservice and now they finally doing something with it.
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KaiserShep
Party like it's 2023!
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by KaiserShep on May 7, 2017 1:50:00 GMT
He wasn't inhuman, he was just monotone and not terribly engaging. He sounded like a brainwashed cultist (which is what a Qunari should sound like). Bull sounds like a frat boy on spring break. He is more fun, but doesn't make any sense. The monotone was part of his alienness. The codex even said, few Qunari speak the common tongue, and even fewer speak it well. Maybe it's just me, but Sten didn't strike me as being entirely monotone. In instances where he speaks of things he misses, like the smell of tea and incense in Seheron, his voice does have a subtle sound of longing as if he's sad. Maybe I'm just hearing things, but I thought the VO was pretty good in his subtlety. Plus, it added to the deadpan. The Arishok was anything but monotone though, and we should all be grateful.
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