kino
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The path up and down are one and the same.
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Post by kino on May 5, 2017 16:03:30 GMT
Oh it's a lulzarius thread. Oh look, linkesnki whined again. hah! That gif pretty much covers it. This poor horse has been beaten into glue at this point.
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Post by kumazan on May 5, 2017 16:20:29 GMT
Yay, bait being thrown all over the place, I'll grab my popcorn and watch people discuss how SJWs ruined their ramen.
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Post by shechinah on May 5, 2017 17:24:43 GMT
But there are some things he's up front about like how women can't be warriors and that they are supposed to do other things in society. I think he only brings this up with the female warden though. The thing about it is that Sten sees a contradiction in that the Warden claims to be a warrior and a woman. The Warden is plainly a woman yet Sten still asks whether the Warden is a warrior or a woman. He does not look at the Warden, sees their body and say with certainty that they must be a woman and therefore not a warrior while dismissing the combination as a bas thing. I believe, and I'll have to dig up the dialogue to be certain, that he opens the conversation by implying that the Warden is a warrior, not a woman. This would likely be because he's seen the Warden fight with merit. *The Qun defines gender by role. An example is how someone who is a warrior has to be male. This likely came about exactly because of how rigidly the Qunari adhere to the Qun and consider its words to be a certainty. If a woman shows great skill when it comes to combat then a contradiction to the Qun exist as it deems that there are no female warriors. To solve this contradiction, the blame is lied on the Tamassrans instead of the Qun thus the Qun remains infallible. In Krem's case, his fighting skill would mean that he was male in the eyes of the Qun but that's only because he has the skillset that fits the gender he is. If he lacked that skillset and had a female skillset then he'd be considered female in the eyes of the Qun and if he resisted that gender definition then he'd be reeducated until he did accepted it or submitted to the qamek if he was deemed a hopeless case: the Qun is not friendly to transsexuals. I don't know why people consider the Qun to be whitewashed considering Iron Bull himself notes the horrible fates that'd happen to his fellow companions under the life of the Qun like the qamek. Iron Bull does have that wierd bit but I also took that to be talking about a word for when female Qunari have to fight. I believe Sten confirms that they do this if it is necessary like in a life or death situation. Note: *confirmed by David Gaider on the old forums, I believe.
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Post by smilesja on May 5, 2017 17:34:06 GMT
But there are some things he's up front about like how women can't be warriors and that they are supposed to do other things in society. I think he only brings this up with the female warden though. The thing about it is that Sten sees a contradiction in that the Warden claims to be a warrior and a woman. The Warden is plainly a woman yet Sten still asks whether the Warden is a warrior or a woman. He does not look at the Warden, sees their body and say with certainty that they must be a woman and therefore not a warrior while dismissing the combination as a bas thing. I believe, and I'll have to dig up the dialogue to be certain, that he opens the conversation by implying that the Warden is a warrior, not a woman. This would likely be because he's seen the Warden fight with merit. *The Qun defines gender by role. An example is how someone who is a warrior has to be male. This likely came about exactly because of how rigidly the Qunari adhere to the Qun and consider its words to be a certainty. If a woman shows great skill when it comes to combat then a contradiction to the Qun exist as it deems that there are no female warriors. To solve this contradiction, the blame is lied on the Tamassrans instead of the Qun thus the Qun remains infallible. In Krem's case, his fighting skill would mean that he was male in the eyes of the Qun but that's only because he has the skillset that fits the gender he is. If he lacked that skillset and had a female skillset then he'd be considered female in the eyes of the Qun and if he resisted that gender definition then he'd be reeducated until he did accepted it or submitted to the qamek if he was deemed a hopeless case: the Qun is not friendly to transsexuals. I don't know why people consider the Qun to be whitewashed considering Iron Bull himself notes the horrible fates that'd happen to his fellow companions under the life of the Qun like the qamek. Iron Bull does have that wierd bit but I also took that to be talking about a word for when female Qunari have to fight. I believe Sten confirms that they do this if it is necessary like in a life or death situation. Note: *confirmed by David Gaider on the old forums, I believe. I always though Sten was more conservative in his view of the Qun while Iron Bull is more liberal due to time undercover.
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Post by shechinah on May 5, 2017 17:42:50 GMT
I always though Sten was more conservative in his view of the Qun while Iron Bull is more liberal due to time undercover. I think it was more that Iron Bull choose to pick and phrase his words to present the Qun in a lighter, well, light. The Qun were pretending to be in an alliance with the Inquisition so it wouldn't do if he did like Sten and outright told the Inquisitor that a treaty or agreement meant nothing to the Qun and that they'd always return to conquer. Unlike Sten and the Arishok, Iron Bull was trained to blend in which involved learning how to behave like and understand bas on a deeper level as well. I wouldn't be surprised if he did a bit of recruiting from time to time. I believe the conversation about the companions' likely fates happen if and after he defects from the Qun. Basically, he becomes more honest about the Qun when he's no longer a part of it and has given in to his disillusion with it. That said, no doubt the Iron Bull was influenced from his time undercover. He did form enough of a connection with the Chargers to be emotionally compromised when faced with the decision that could lead to their deaths.
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Post by alanc9 on May 5, 2017 17:53:31 GMT
But there are some things he's up front about like how women can't be warriors and that they are supposed to do other things in society. I think he only brings this up with the female warden though. The thing about it is that Sten sees a contradiction in that the Warden claims to be a warrior and a woman. The Warden is plainly a woman yet Sten still asks whether the Warden is a warrior or a woman. He does not look at the Warden, sees their body and say with certainty that they must be a woman and therefore not a warrior while dismissing the combination as a bas thing. I believe, and I'll have to dig up the dialogue to be certain, that he opens the conversation by implying that the Warden is a warrior, not a woman. This would likely be because he's seen the Warden fight with merit. *The Qun defines gender by role. An example is how someone who is a warrior has to be male. This likely came about exactly because of how rigidly the Qunari adhere to the Qun and consider its words to be a certainty. If a woman shows great skill when it comes to combat then a contradiction to the Qun exist as it deems that there are no female warriors. To solve this contradiction, the blame is lied on the Tamassrans instead of the Qun thus the Qun remains infallible. In Krem's case, his fighting skill would mean that he was male in the eyes of the Qun but that's only because he has the skillset that fits the gender he is. If he lacked that skillset and had a female skillset then he'd be considered female in the eyes of the Qun and if he resisted that gender definition then he'd be reeducated until he did accepted it or submitted to the qamek if he was deemed a hopeless case: the Qun is not friendly to transsexuals. I don't know why people consider the Qun to be whitewashed considering Iron Bull himself notes the horrible fates that'd happen to his fellow companions under the life of the Qun like the qamek. Iron Bull does have that wierd bit but I also took that to be talking about a word for when female Qunari have to fight. I believe Sten confirms that they do this if it is necessary like in a life or death situation. Note: *confirmed by David Gaider on the old forums, I believe. Pretty much. I think it's likely that the tamassrans would have assigned Krem as a male (of the aqun-athlok subtype) from the get-go, had he been born under the Qun. If you're going to have strict gender roles it's easier as a practical matter to assign the roles by brain gender rather than by external genitalia, especially since reproduction under the Qun is an essentially mechanical process. And if Krem isn't qualified to breed under the Qun -- we don't have any data on this -- then it wouldn't come up except when visiting the tamassrans for sexual activity, and they're professionals about this.
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on May 5, 2017 18:37:24 GMT
The same thing happened in Dragon Age with the Qun. The idea of demons falling out of the sky and killing everyone was believable but the idea of a civilization of males that put women in secondary roles was unthinkable. So they retconned the Qun to make them more PC which is just ridiculous when you realize that the Qun thinks that cutting out the tounges of mages so they can't talk is a good idea. They used to be Kilingon-lite but now they're just totally inconsistent. To be fair, the Qun didn't put women into secondary roles, it put them into different roles, and said "no man could be as good in this role as as a woman" and "No woman can be as good in that role as a man" And wanting to be otherwise is crazy-talk. Very rigid. Very alien. Then IB went and told us qunari are just humans with horns.
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Post by Iakus on May 5, 2017 19:40:44 GMT
The thing about it is that Sten sees a contradiction in that the Warden claims to be a warrior and a woman. The Warden is plainly a woman yet Sten still asks whether the Warden is a warrior or a woman. He does not look at the Warden, sees their body and say with certainty that they must be a woman and therefore not a warrior while dismissing the combination as a bas thing. I believe, and I'll have to dig up the dialogue to be certain, that he opens the conversation by implying that the Warden is a warrior, not a woman. This would likely be because he's seen the Warden fight with merit. *The Qun defines gender by role. An example is how someone who is a warrior has to be male. This likely came about exactly because of how rigidly the Qunari adhere to the Qun and consider its words to be a certainty. If a woman shows great skill when it comes to combat then a contradiction to the Qun exist as it deems that there are no female warriors. To solve this contradiction, the blame is lied on the Tamassrans instead of the Qun thus the Qun remains infallible. In Krem's case, his fighting skill would mean that he was male in the eyes of the Qun but that's only because he has the skillset that fits the gender he is. If he lacked that skillset and had a female skillset then he'd be considered female in the eyes of the Qun and if he resisted that gender definition then he'd be reeducated until he did accepted it or submitted to the qamek if he was deemed a hopeless case: the Qun is not friendly to transsexuals. I don't know why people consider the Qun to be whitewashed considering Iron Bull himself notes the horrible fates that'd happen to his fellow companions under the life of the Qun like the qamek. Iron Bull does have that wierd bit but I also took that to be talking about a word for when female Qunari have to fight. I believe Sten confirms that they do this if it is necessary like in a life or death situation. Note: *confirmed by David Gaider on the old forums, I believe. Pretty much. I think it's likely that the tamassrans would have assigned Krem as a male (of the aqun-athlok subtype) from the get-go, had he been born under the Qun. If you're going to have strict gender roles it's easier as a practical matter to assign the roles by brain gender rather than by external genitalia, especially since reproduction under the Qun is an essentially mechanical process. And if Krem isn't qualified to breed under the Qun -- we don't have any data on this -- then it wouldn't come up except when visiting the tamassrans for sexual activity, and they're professionals about this. But another problem comes up with Cassandra. She clearly sees herself as a woman, and as a warrior. And IB even acknowledges this contradiction in banter with her. But also insists that she'd do well under the Qun.
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Post by zeypher on May 5, 2017 19:42:24 GMT
The same thing happened in Dragon Age with the Qun. The idea of demons falling out of the sky and killing everyone was believable but the idea of a civilization of males that put women in secondary roles was unthinkable. So they retconned the Qun to make them more PC which is just ridiculous when you realize that the Qun thinks that cutting out the tounges of mages so they can't talk is a good idea. They used to be Kilingon-lite but now they're just totally inconsistent. To be fair, the Qun didn't put women into secondary roles, it put them into different roles, and said "no man could be as good in this role as as a woman" and "No woman can be as good in that role as a man" And wanting to be otherwise is crazy-talk. Very rigid. Very alien. Then IB went and told us qunari are just humans with horns. The "Human with horns" that part is what i have started to hate about their games now. This also applies not only to the Angara but have started for all the races now. The all speak and use terms only a human who knows western culture and English would use. They are not aliens anymore just different shaped humans and that is fuking boring. Peebee saying peanut butter, the use of latin and other inconsistencies just piss me off. The problem with the alien races in MEA is being inoffensively offensive in their blandness and grayness. Whats even worse is that this faux melting pot only happens with other races, why dont humans use some krogan language and culture? or Asari religion etc etc. Thats why its messed up and clearly shows that their game making, writing is directed by their political agendas rather than quality. I accept a melting pot, hell that situation should be ideal but what we have now is not one. All they did is just make everyone else human and that is not a bloody melting pot of civilizations. IF Bioware is interested in making it so then do it properly and carefully. Making everyone human is not the way. They neutered the Geth this way in ME3, looks like that for Krogan in MEA. They are supposed to be different races which means different customs, religions and different ways of life (culture). They have to reflect that and also reflect that other species have picked up parts of the other races. They tried a bit with Cora but it needed a better hand at it. It seemed more fake than natural but then idiots ofcourse label here a weablue or whatever. But so far she was the only human who was shown to be influenced by Asari culture and her picking up parts of it. That is what they need to do more off but written better, a lot better. Atm it felt a bit amateurish.
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Post by Iakus on May 5, 2017 20:14:34 GMT
To be fair, the Qun didn't put women into secondary roles, it put them into different roles, and said "no man could be as good in this role as as a woman" and "No woman can be as good in that role as a man" And wanting to be otherwise is crazy-talk. Very rigid. Very alien. Then IB went and told us qunari are just humans with horns. The "Human with horns" that part is what i have started to hate about their games now. This also applies not only to the Angara but have started for all the races now. The all speak and use terms only a human who knows western culture and English would use. They are not aliens anymore just different shaped humans and that is fuking boring. Peebee saying peanut butter, the use of latin and other inconsistencies just piss me off. The problem with the alien races in MEA is being inoffensively offensive in their blandness and grayness. Whats even worse is that this faux melting pot only happens with other races, why dont humans use some krogan language and culture? or Asari religion etc etc. Thats why its messed up and clearly shows that their game making, writing is directed by their political agendas rather than quality. I accept a melting pot, hell that situation should be ideal but what we have now is not one. All they did is just make everyone else human and that is not a bloody melting pot of civilizations. IF Bioware is interested in making it so then do it properly and carefully. Making everyone human is not the way. They neutered the Geth this way in ME3, looks like that for Krogan in MEA. They are supposed to be different races which means different customs, religions and different ways of life (culture). They have to reflect that and also reflect that other species have picked up parts of the other races. They tried a bit with Cora but it needed a better hand at it. It seemed more fake than natural but then idiots ofcourse label here a weablue or whatever. But so far she was the only human who was shown to be influenced by Asari culture and her picking up parts of it. That is what they need to do more off but written better, a lot better. Atm it felt a bit amateurish. Well, Christ L'etoile seemed to be the only writer they ever had that made a serious effort to do that. And he's long gone...
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Post by zeypher on May 5, 2017 20:23:11 GMT
Well what they did to the Geth in 3 i could no longer call them that, same with EDI they humanised her too damn much. So i had no issue shooting the tube and blowing all to hell.
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Post by erikson on May 5, 2017 20:51:13 GMT
It would be nice if LGBT diversity was treated naturally instead of lecturing the player at every opportunity. That Iron Bull conversation still makes me mad Which one, I wonder? But yeah, I agree. I think sometimes when you go all out rage-mode on the SJW-topics people assume it's because you must hate diversity or live under a rock or that you are a really right-winged idiot or whatever, but it really comes down to one thing: I want to be immersed and I don't want to be patronized. I know there's a lot of infighting over the rights of LGBT+ and race equality right now and so-called "white-supremacy" that indeed does plague games because of how big corporates like EA have set a precedent that pretty much (in the past at least) locked out black protagonists from a "limited marketing potential" or what have you, but you can tell when peer-pressure or pandering takes over as the no. 1 reason why people inside the games are suddenly making points that sound like your everyday social media babble. It's that simple. Just don't make it patronizing and don't pick one side of a political standpoint and try to force it down over your players. I know people hate Trump and they're desperate right now, but when I'm playing a video game I'm specifically not thinking about those things, and also I'm not american so it all looks like a big puppet show from where I live which only makes it extra annoying and america-centric when issues related are brought up too heavy-handedly. This baffles me, can someone please point out the SJW politics in this game? Where is the game lecturing you or taking a political position? Are you just triggered by the words "bigot" being in the game? So if the character oposses bigotry it is now SJW politics?
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Post by erikson on May 5, 2017 20:52:19 GMT
Are you people just bored at this point? At this point it is getting closer to this for me.
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Post by alanc9 on May 5, 2017 21:12:29 GMT
Then IB went and told us qunari are just humans with horns. That's not very sensible. If IB did anything, he made the Qun seem more alien. The standard-issue sex and caste roles Sten seemed to be pushing are familiar. (I can see the issue in the MEU, though.) As for Cassandra, she'd just have to give up the fighting thing. IB may be overestimating her ability to conform to new rules, but that didn't imply anything about the Qun.
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Post by Iakus on May 5, 2017 21:23:37 GMT
Then IB went and told us qunari are just humans with horns. That's not very sensible. If IB did anything, he made the Qun seem more alien. The standard-issue sex and caste roles Sten seemed to be pushing are familiar. As for Cassandra, she'd just have to give up the fighting thing. IB may be overestimating her ability to conform to new rules, but that didn't imply anything about the Qun. Sure it is. Cassandra has been a Seeker and the Right hand of the Divine for twenty years. Not to mention devoted to the Chantry and its ideals. How easily should she give that up? She is a woman and a warrior. She'd never give either up. And the Qun did start out alien. Alien and horrifying. You are assigned a role and that's what you are til the day you die. And you are supposed to meekly accept it. Personal beliefs and doubts never enter into the equation. The Qun is CERTAINTY. There is no personal identity whatsoever. Even your name is only a job title. Y our farmers wish to be merchants. The merchants dream of being nobles, and the nobles become warriors. No one is content to be who they are.
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Post by alanc9 on May 5, 2017 23:58:07 GMT
It makes sense for The Iron Bull -- to use it properly -- to believe that about Cassandra, even if it's wrong. The Qun approach seems to be that while personalities might be innate, beliefs are malleable. And the qunari have had a high success rate with that, although they achieve their success rate by breaking the failures.
I didn't see the Qun caste system as alien. Alien to me personally, sure, since I grew up in 20th century America (smug New York liberal subgroup). But rigid caste systems have plenty of historical precedent. The personal name thing is a bit much, though. (FWIW, I've never got that dialogue with any of my Wardens.)
I still don't see what you were getting at earlier. How did Bull humanize the Qun?
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Post by thefool on May 6, 2017 0:20:56 GMT
Cassandra would become a Ben-Hassrath. It's basically the same job she has now with the Chantry and they can be male or female.
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Post by Iakus on May 6, 2017 0:32:39 GMT
It makes sense for The Iron Bull -- to use it properly -- to believe that about Cassandra, even if it's wrong. The Qun approach seems to be that while personalities might be innate, beliefs are malleable. And the qunari have had a high success rate with that, although they achieve their success rate by breaking the failures. I didn't see the Qun caste system as alien. Alien to me personally, sure, since I grew up in 20th century America (smug New York liberal subgroup). But rigid caste systems have plenty of historical precedent. The personal name thing is a bit much, though. (FWIW, I've never got that dialogue with any of my Wardens.) I still don't see what you were getting at earlier. How did Bull humanize the Qun? To me, the Qun has little room for personalities or individuality of any kind. Under the Qun, you aren't a person, you're part of a greater whole. Which is what makes it alien to me. No human government or society (except maybe some of the most reclusive of cults) so completely buries the individual. No matter how jingoistic the people, no matter how they may preach "one nation" or "one people" the Qunari took it to eleven. They are practically the borg "you will be assimilated". To the point where if you stop believing in the Qun you stop being Qunari. Like when Hawke asked the Arishok how many Qunari he lost to the Tal-Vashoth. The answer was "None" Bull humanizes it by, well, acting like a human. Making the Qun seem like just another empire, not so different from Tevinter.
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Post by Iakus on May 6, 2017 0:35:05 GMT
Cassandra would become a Ben-Hassrath. It's basically the same job she has now with the Chantry and they can be male or female. They can, but even under the same job heading, men and women under the Qun get different specialties (per WOT vol 1). IB may work with the military as a man, but Tallis, a woman, was more of a fixer/assassin. I don't think Cassandra could wear leather the way Tallis could
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Post by thefool on May 6, 2017 0:51:37 GMT
Cassandra would become a Ben-Hassrath. It's basically the same job she has now with the Chantry and they can be male or female. They can, but even under the same job heading, men and women under the Qun get different specialties (per WOT vol 1). IB may work with the military as a man, but Tallis, a woman, was more of a fixer/assassin. I don't think Cassandra could wear leather the way Tallis could Maybe you should watch Dawn of the Seeker.
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Post by KaiserShep on May 6, 2017 0:59:29 GMT
I don't think Cassandra could wear leather the way Tallis could Considering that Cassandra is of more substantial build, I challenge this, sir.
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Post by Trilobite Derby on May 6, 2017 1:19:11 GMT
Yay, bait being thrown all over the place, I'll grab my popcorn and watch people discuss how SJWs ruined their ramen. popcorn.gif etc etc Adding nontraditional seasonings! No one even knows what rutabaga actually is. Damn hipsters and their rhubarb beer and 62 flavors of soda and whatever the hell else is trendy...
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N7
GIF Addict
Workin' so hard, to make it easy.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on May 6, 2017 1:20:47 GMT
Explaining it as a way the asari have melded with the other species, or a difference of opinion or whatever is essentially bullshit. The real reason is BioWare trying to show the world, and all the special snowflakes, that they're super sensitive the latest Tumblr zeitgeist. The end.
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Post by KaiserShep on May 6, 2017 1:27:17 GMT
Yay, bait being thrown all over the place, I'll grab my popcorn and watch people discuss how SJWs ruined their ramen. popcorn.gif etc etc Adding nontraditional seasonings! No one even knows what rutabaga actually is. Damn hipsters and their rhubarb beer and 62 flavors of soda and whatever the hell else is trendy… You haven't lived until you've had sparkling celery and pomegranate infused water.
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Post by erikson on May 6, 2017 1:34:53 GMT
It makes sense for The Iron Bull -- to use it properly -- to believe that about Cassandra, even if it's wrong. The Qun approach seems to be that while personalities might be innate, beliefs are malleable. And the qunari have had a high success rate with that, although they achieve their success rate by breaking the failures. I didn't see the Qun caste system as alien. Alien to me personally, sure, since I grew up in 20th century America (smug New York liberal subgroup). But rigid caste systems have plenty of historical precedent. The personal name thing is a bit much, though. (FWIW, I've never got that dialogue with any of my Wardens.) I still don't see what you were getting at earlier. How did Bull humanize the Qun? To me, the Qun has little room for personalities or individuality of any kind. Under the Qun, you aren't a person, you're part of a greater whole. Which is what makes it alien to me. No human government or society (except maybe some of the most reclusive of cults) so completely buries the individual. No matter how jingoistic the people, no matter how they may preach "one nation" or "one people" the Qunari took it to eleven. They are practically the borg "you will be assimilated". To the point where if you stop believing in the Qun you stop being Qunari. Like when Hawke asked the Arishok how many Qunari he lost to the Tal-Vashoth. The answer was "None" Bull humanizes it by, well, acting like a human. Making the Qun seem like just another empire, not so different from Tevinter. To be honest, and I like the character, but Bull doesn't feel like he'd really fit in the Qun at all. The level of personality, and individuality he shows doesn't really fit the way a self-negating cult would work.
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