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Post by Daft Arbiter on May 13, 2017 6:47:47 GMT
I guess I'm one of the freaks in the "Doesn't care about ME:A, will never play it, but is patiently waiting for ME4 with no ill will whatsoever" camp. ME:A doesn't interest me at all. An ME4 however? That'd be a whole different story. Either way, I'm fine with whatever Bioware chooses to do. I already lost my shit when ME3 was released, so the series can't really upset me at this point. ME4, or ME5? Andromeda is too tangential to the main story and its narratives to be considered an absolute sequel. I look on it as being sort of the equivalent of what Rogue Squadron is to the main Star Wars films. It is indeed a legitimate part of the Mass Effect franchise, but considering that even the devs didn't put a number next to its name, calling it a sequel seems a bit out of sorts.
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Post by dm04 on May 13, 2017 9:43:15 GMT
With the future of Mass Effect being a bit unclear because of Mass Effect Andromeda, I started thinking about all the moments leading up to the release of MEA. I remember most fans just wanting to "move on" and eagerly leave everyone and everything we knew in the past. New stories, new characters,new adventures and a whole new setting ,while others felt the franchise should have continued somehow with Shepard. I know , MEA' s failings have less to do with its setting and more to do with a myriad other things,but I wanted to open a discussion for fans to talk about their opinions on whether the departure to a spin-off was better or worse than making an actual sequel. Yes, a sequel (ME4) would mean rewriting the endinds of ME3 and that wouldn't be feasible anyway. However, having seen and played Mass Effect Andromeda ,would anyone have preferred a ME4 with Shepard instead of what we got, afterall? Just a hypothetical question. My humble opinion is that the franchise is so rich and ripe for stories we could have gotten both. If only,Bioware had planned it better. Feel free to discuss. I am fine with MEA, what they tried, it works. Unfortunataly the game does not catch up with the premise. If not for this "myriad" of problems, I would love it. Actualy more then "true" ME4 in the milky way.
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Post by The Arbiter on May 13, 2017 9:58:11 GMT
With the future of Mass Effect being a bit unclear because of Mass Effect Andromeda, I started thinking about all the moments leading up to the release of MEA. I remember most fans just wanting to "move on" and eagerly leave everyone and everything we knew in the past. New stories, new characters,new adventures and a whole new setting ,while others felt the franchise should have continued somehow with Shepard. I know , MEA' s failings have less to do with its setting and more to do with a myriad other things,but I wanted to open a discussion for fans to talk about their opinions on whether the departure to a spin-off was better or worse than making an actual sequel. Yes, a sequel (ME4) would mean rewriting the endinds of ME3 and that wouldn't be feasible anyway. However, having seen and played Mass Effect Andromeda ,would anyone have preferred a ME4 with Shepard instead of what we got, afterall? Just a hypothetical question. My humble opinion is that the franchise is so rich and ripe for stories we could have gotten both. If only,Bioware had planned it better. Feel free to discuss. NOPE I DID NOT WANT TO MOVE ON... AT ALL Back when the original BioWare forums still existed, I created the "RESTART OR REBOOT" thread and the "SAVE THE MILKYWAY THREAD". People ignored me and laughed at my notion. I still gave BioWare the respect for their decision where they want to take their IP next, but I stressed that the chances of failure or fuck up is great since moving to Andromeda in the first place is idiotic. I mean how the F is it hard to canonize just one fucking ending just to save the bloody franchise? bloody hell now look at this shite.
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Post by Muddy Boots on May 13, 2017 10:03:36 GMT
While I loved my Shepards, I think there's nowhere left for them to go. I mean, what do you do after saving the entire galaxy? Go to Disney World? I think Shepard and friend paid enough of a price and deserve to retire to just do their own thing.
I really do like my Ryders and would love to see them grow, but that looks like it won't happen, unfortunately.
I don't think the problem is that it's a new story with new protagonists. I like the game, but I think there are too many shortcuts taken and it shows. I don't know if it's EA pushing them to finish the product and get it out there, or just something on Bioware's side, but they could have done a lot better if they'd had more time and more thought into the whole thing.
Usually these things come down to the powers that be and the top leaders. I think a fresh perspective from someone new might help move the Ryders forward.
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Post by abaris on May 13, 2017 10:28:08 GMT
While I loved my Shepards, I think there's nowhere left for them to go. I mean, what do you do after saving the entire galaxy? Go to Disney World? I think Shepard and friend paid enough of a price and deserve to retire to just do their own thing. In that you are right. And I have no problem with this being an entirely new approach. That said, I would have liked for them to create an equally strong lead. People play these kinds of games for escapism, to identify with something they aren't in real life. Larger than life. For me at least, Ryder's a douche and for the largest part stays a douche. That could have been easily remedied by supplying the character with snide responses to all the insinuations of not taking them seriously, but the game goes to great lengths of rubbing into your face, you're not taken seriously. Also, the more I played, the more I realized the companions not being on par with previous games. In other games, even after playing them three of four times, I went to them to get their opinions and to see what they have to say. Not here. I find myself pushing the X button to speed things up. Which is largely a result of whatever your character says, the response almost always is the same. Which reminds me of FO4 where you could outright insult a character and get the same response as if you just had applauded them.
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2017 11:12:32 GMT
Moving on always benefits the one that has the courage to dare begin a new change. Change is not an easy and enjoyable path especially at the very beginning. It's full of hit and miss and mistakes but it's a new path to something different. A foundation is being set and now it should be given the chance to tell its story in full.
Ryder should get the chance to mature from an inexperienced brat into a competent person. In real life none is born hardened as there was a time in which even Shepard was green albeit we've never really seen that part. I want to see how the story of Andromeda will continue but I want to see changes in it, I want people growing up and feel these fictional characters getting real life personal growth.
Living in the shadows of Shepard and the Reapers is not going to benefit the franchise after three games where its story was already told. Living with the memories of the past is indeed sweet but it won't help achieve anything meaningful in the future.
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Post by auu on May 13, 2017 12:24:59 GMT
It feels like there's zero history in Andromeda. All the fun stuff is gone. I don't like it.
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Post by commandercryptarch on May 13, 2017 12:44:45 GMT
And what it is shapes the perception of what Mass Effect as a whole is. ... because people won't stop bringing it up to the forefront. A case in point... whenever a thread on this topic starts to die here, another two are immediately started... sometimes by the same OPs. Some of them word the question just a hair's breath differently eachc time, but always boiling down to the same thing. This one starts with a statement that I'm quite sure the OP knew was an utter lie. Many of the "fans" simply have never moved on... You've stated yourself that you simply cannot move on. It's impeding what Mass Effect could be... because they don't want to let it be anything different. They revel in putting Bioware into a "box" - giving them the effective ultimatum - "Rewrite the endings because it's the only thing "we" (i.e. those disgruntled fans) are going to let you (i.e. Bioware) do." Everything else the company tries to do will get ripped apart online. They (disgruntled fans) started a "war" back in 2012 when ME3 was released and they aren't giving up on it. The irony is that now, 5 years later, even if Biware rewrites the endings, the complaining about their games is so entrenched that it is unlikely to end even then. IMO, to get anywhere, Bioware may have to dissolve as a company and start up again under a completely different name. I like how you just assume things and are so sure about the assumptions you make about the OP. You are being very dramatic in your post. I am not a "disgruntled fan" who wants a rewrite of the endings or whatever.I wasn't even around during that period.I finished playing the trilogy in 2014 and I don't recall ever opening a similar thread and the "moved on" in the title only means moving on to a new setting and whether the spin-off/new story approach was better than a sequel.To which, I even wrote that I believe the MEU is so rich and ripe for many stories where we could have had both,if only Bioware had planned ahead a bit better. I am not against Andromeda, as many stated i this thread, the idea was pretty solid but poorly executed.
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Post by Reorte on May 13, 2017 13:20:40 GMT
I keep reading the notion, that somehow the ME3 endings made it impossible for them to continue making games in the Milky Way. That is simply put untrue. There are ways to write past all 3 endings of ME3, but they didn't have the writing talent to do it. Heck MEA is proof of that. They had complete open field and opportunity to do anything they wanted and they managed to screw up even that opportunity. There are ways but there aren't ways that'll annoy quite a few people, no matter what you do it'll get some worked up by it essentially removing some consequence. Andromeda is the easy option, although since the Milky Way is vast one I've always though unnecessary, and one that indtroduces its own problems (if the Milky Way races can get there in 600 years it seems very unlikely that it wouldn't have been tried in the past, and that the Reapers wouldn't already be there - my point about the size of the MW notwithstanding). I really don't think that they've screwed up Andromeda though, by any stretch of the imagination. Sure the game had its flaws, but none of them renders the whole setting messed up, plenty of scope to move on from there.
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Post by Obsidian Gryphon on May 13, 2017 13:30:39 GMT
I don't think ME:A benefited the franchise at all. What is the difference between rebuilding the Milky Way, establishing new colonies, finding new aliens to deal with, and exploring new areas of the MW galaxy, vs establishing new colonies, finding new aliens to deal with, and struggling for existence and exploration in another galaxy? It would not have bothered me if the Shepard 'destroy ending' choice had been made cannon, and Shepard survives for "one more story' (as an extended DLC, and released 2-3 years ago). Perhaps a civil war breaks out in the MW following the destruction of the Reapers, and Shepard has to make a lot of 'gray' decisions after getting all of the MW species to band together. Suddenly, all h*ll breaks loose in the big power-vacuum left in the wake of the Reaper's destruction. Then skip forward 100 years after the "One More Story" and develop new Milky Way stories in new MW star clusters and star systems. This type of story-game could still be made! And ME:A does not preclude a final ME:3 DLC or two with much more satisfying ending choices where our RP decisions really make a difference in the possible outcomes. I know it won't happen. Perhaps that's my real problem with ME:A - I envision so many missed opportunities that could have extended the Shepard timeline and pass the torch to a new set of protagonists in the MW for 1-2 more games. Maybe one day I'll write my own ME:4 DLC. And I really miss Ashley! Edit: And now that all of the Frostbite efforts are basically working.... *nods* imo, MEA is not a ME title. I can't speak for the others but I'd prefer to stay in the MW and see what comes after. As a few had suggested, begin ME4 with a simple and concrete resolution, Reapers killed with mass relays not badly damaged, and officially retire Shepard with LI and loyal crew. What comes after could go anywhere. I have a thought though on the aftermath. Does that mean everything is very rosy, everyone goes home all happy ever after? Rebuilding the war torn homeworlds wouldn't be simple. Why? The Reapers and all their thralls converted with Reaper tech may have been killed but what about those who have been indoctrinated (akin to Dr Kenson) and were not killed by the beam transmission but were damaged as the change over was slight? The victors may just go back home to find themselves fighting another war. This time, against their own, to get back their homeworlds. The conflict will not be so black and white. Someone else will step up to the plate. Not Shepard. And it need not be a singular or human protag. Heck, two sides of a tale can be shown. The ones fighting to get back their homes and the ones out to avenge their slain masters.
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Post by vilegrim on May 13, 2017 13:43:46 GMT
I've wondered if the game had released in exactly this consition, minus the name 'Bioware' in the credits, if the backlash would have been as nasty. If say, 'Bethesda' had been on the logo, people tend to forgive them for bugs, y'know, like the 'I lost 300 hours on Skyrim due to save game corruption, crashing in Riften 100 percent of the time?' kind of bugs. BW came back into the scene still smoking from the ME3 ending nightmare. They might have been better to take the hiatus then, and re think the series at that time, not now with a whole new story arc, questions and lingering story (Quarians) now up in the air. Well, and if you have slapped CDPR logo on it, we'd have retorts about everything that is now considered a design flaw in the vein "it's the lore, stupid, and that's how they do things in their greatness, the game's a revelation, and if you don't think so you are a f***g moron." HArdly, the difference you are missing is the last 2 CDPR games have been good, the last 3 BW games have been mediocre if you are being really, really kind.
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Post by Reorte on May 13, 2017 14:00:06 GMT
*nods* imo, MEA is not a ME title. I can't speak for the others but I'd prefer to stay in the MW and see what comes after. As a few had suggested, begin ME4 with a simple and concrete resolution, Reapers killed with mass relays not badly damaged, and officially retire Shepard with LI and loyal crew. What comes after could go anywhere. I have a thought though on the aftermath. Does that mean everything is very rosy, everyone goes home all happy ever after? Rebuilding the war torn homeworlds wouldn't be simple. Why? The Reapers and all their thralls converted with Reaper tech may have been killed but what about those who have been indoctrinated (akin to Dr Kenson) and were not killed by the beam transmission but were damaged as the change over was slight? The victors may just go back home to find themselves fighting another war. This time, against their own, to get back their homeworlds. The conflict will not be so black and white. Someone else will step up to the plate. Not Shepard. And it need not be a singular or human protag. Heck, two sides of a tale can be shown. The ones fighting to get back their homes and the ones out to avenge their slain masters. I'd be happy with that but all the Control and Synthesis (and Refuse) people would get up in arms. There are also the quarians / geth and the genophage decisions to somehow resolve without annoying too many people. I've chucked this idea out in the past - Reapers gone, relays damaged, but only the active ones. There's nothing saying that they aren't well outnumbered by still dormant relays, and those could remain unaffected. So you could use them to have an explore the galaxy game, running into new areas, perhaps even a group of active relays disconnected from the rest and a new power using them for new enemies and allies (after all fear of that was why reactivating dormant ones was illegal), and every now and then reconnecting to a bit of the familiar Mass Effect universe.
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Post by Mad Cassidy on May 13, 2017 14:29:40 GMT
Despite the hiccups and bugs and such (of which I experienced very little on PC version and I played three times through) the only thing that keeps it from being as re-playable as the other games I play over and over is that the Ryder twins are not larger than life. People are ordinary in RL. We play RP games as an escape to be something larger than what we are. For those exciting hours we are Shepard, we are the Inquisitor, we are the Warden, Hawk, the Witcher, the Dragonborn Dovakiin, the Jedi bearing a lightsaber, we go forth boldly on the Enterprise. It makes a player feel capable, strong, the hero. As Ryder, I play a kid that never really becomes something bigger, who could never fill their distant (and now deceased) father's shoes were it not for Sam and even then, it feels like the successes are more accident than coming into one's own. Instead of being on a ship with a team of specialists with some expertise in their fields, I feel like my character is fresh out of college with a handful of people that are also just out of college and they're sort of wading through it. Andromeda might have been a really great game if we'd been playing Alex Ryder (or Alexa for female protaganist.) Andromeda would have been so much more, at least to me, if we'd entered this brand new galaxy of hope and danger while in the shoes of the capable hero that everyone was expecting to be looking up to when they woke up from Cryo. I have to disagree. I think it was a good move to go with someone who has to grow into their role. Starting off as a hero gives you much less potential for growth; "you set off as a hero everyone respects and admires, you continue to be a hero everyone respect and admires, you end as a hero everyone respects and admires" doesn't really have the ring of interesting character development. To me, that's much less engaging. I would rather a character to whom I can more easily relate, because I get to see them become something more, and not just sit in on an episode of them being a hero. Besides, the Warden, Hawke, Inquisitor, Dragonborn... all of these characters started off untested. By the end of MEA, I felt like Ryder had stepped out of the their father's shadow to become a hero in their own right (and, I would argue, something 'larger than life'). I would also disagree with all of Ryder's successes being accidental. And sure, they needed SAM, but so would an Alec homologue in the same situation. SAM's no different than the Warden's taint-turned-Archdemon-destroying-ability, the Inquisitor's mark, or the Dragonborn's... whatever it is that the Dragonborn has (incredible lung capacity?). All of these characters relied on something special, something not really intrinsic to themselves. And maybe this time we had a crew of misfits rather than hardened veterans and specialists... but that hasn't really been the case for any of the games you've brought up either (except perhaps ME2 and ME3). And if you want to talk about a kid who seems to succeed by folly and fluke, Hawke is a prime example; Hawke felt like the blindsided victim of circumstance just muddling through a bunch of horrible events and doing their best to keep their head afloat, whereas Ryder, at least, seemed to have some kind of direction and end-goal.
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Post by abaris on May 13, 2017 14:39:16 GMT
Then give them the opportunity to grow, damn it. Apart from a select few instances, this character doesn't evolve. The developers made sure of it. I don't know if it was getting rid of Paragon/Renegade or the insufferable attempts at humor they felt like inserting into this game. But I don't feel the vibe of my character growing.
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2017 14:54:25 GMT
Well, and if you have slapped CDPR logo on it, we'd have retorts about everything that is now considered a design flaw in the vein "it's the lore, stupid, and that's how they do things in their greatness, the game's a revelation, and if you don't think so you are a f***g moron." HArdly, the difference you are missing is the last 2 CDPR games have been good, the last 3 BW games have been mediocre if you are being really, really kind. No, I am not missing positive critical reception of the Witcher series. what I refer to is Witcher fan base habit to dismiss simple statements of fact about the essential design choices in that game with the:"it's the lore, stupid, and that's how they do things in their great---etc, etc, etc, essentially dismissing criticism as not relevant, because they did like the game overall. That attitude may lead to the Cyberpunk developed exactly the same way as W3, instead of evolving into something more players can enjoy, while retaining the features current fans like.
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Post by Mad Cassidy on May 13, 2017 14:56:06 GMT
Then give them the opportunity to grow, damn it. Apart from a select few instances, this character doesn't evolve. The developers made sure of it. I don't know if it was getting rid of Paragon/Renegade or the insufferable attempts at humor they felt like inserting into this game. But I don't feel the vibe of my character growing. I'm not sure about you, but in terms of people's reactions to my character, at least, it felt like Ryder went from someone everyone questioned at the start of the game to the respected senior pathfinder by the end. It's also tricky to pull off significant player-character growth in a single game that isn't jarring and doesn't take away player agency. Paragon/Renegade doesn't really have anything to do with it, and you could always try moving more towards the 'professional' or 'logical' tones as the game progresses (that would cut down on some of the humour). That's not to say they couldn't have done a better job. A more serious tone in the sequel would certainly help foster that feeling of character growth. You just have to be willing to play the long game.
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Post by abaris on May 13, 2017 15:02:03 GMT
That's not to say they couldn't have done a better job. A more serious tone in the sequel would certainly help foster that feeling of character growth. You just have to be willing to play the long game. I'm certainly not larger than life. But the crap Addison says at the start, not even me would have swallowed without a comeback along the lines of "you need me, so kindly cut the crap". But that's not an option. You have to take her comment and many ensuing ones. At some points, such as the meetings on the Tempest, the game even goes into autopilot to deliver the stupid lines of not being killed, in order for Cora having her comment about Krogans. Or the squadmates simply filing out without turning back to leave my character looking like an idiot. These are the things not sitting well with me. The things pointing out you're a douche and can't do anything about it.
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Post by alanc9 on May 13, 2017 15:21:27 GMT
Andromeda is too tangential to the main story and its narratives to be considered an absolute sequel. I look on it as being sort of the equivalent of what Rogue Squadron is to the main Star Wars films. It is indeed a legitimate part of the Mass Effect franchise, but considering that even the devs didn't put a number next to its name, calling it a sequel seems a bit out of sorts. Gotcha. I'm not sure the chance of an ME4 ever showing up is very high, though.
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Post by vilegrim on May 13, 2017 15:23:37 GMT
HArdly, the difference you are missing is the last 2 CDPR games have been good, the last 3 BW games have been mediocre if you are being really, really kind. No, I am not missing positive critical reception of the Witcher series. That attitude may lead to the Cyberpunk developed exactly the same way as W3, instead of evolving into something more players can enjoy, while retaining the features current fans like. which would be a good thing, BW tried it and ended up making terrible games that are roundly hated, which have no redeeming features or worth, in my case the last BW game I thought was genuinely good, rather than 'ok' was released in 2010.
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Post by Iakus on May 13, 2017 15:26:56 GMT
I keep reading the notion, that somehow the ME3 endings made it impossible for them to continue making games in the Milky Way. That is simply put untrue. There are ways to write past all 3 endings of ME3, but they didn't have the writing talent to do it. Heck MEA is proof of that. They had complete open field and opportunity to do anything they wanted and they managed to screw up even that opportunity. The endings are a roadblock because Mac won't let his Art be touched.
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Post by abaris on May 13, 2017 15:30:12 GMT
The endings are a roadblock because Mac won't let his Art be touched. Minimalistic art. As in RGB.
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Post by alanc9 on May 13, 2017 15:37:21 GMT
*nods* imo, MEA is not a ME title. I can't speak for the others but I'd prefer to stay in the MW and see what comes after. As a few had suggested, begin ME4 with a simple and concrete resolution, Reapers killed with mass relays not badly damaged, and officially retire Shepard with LI and loyal crew. What comes after could go anywhere. I have a thought though on the aftermath. Does that mean everything is very rosy, everyone goes home all happy ever after? Rebuilding the war torn homeworlds wouldn't be simple. Why? The Reapers and all their thralls converted with Reaper tech may have been killed but what about those who have been indoctrinated (akin to Dr Kenson) and were not killed by the beam transmission but were damaged as the change over was slight? The victors may just go back home to find themselves fighting another war. This time, against their own, to get back their homeworlds. The conflict will not be so black and white. Someone else will step up to the plate. Not Shepard. And it need not be a singular or human protag. Heck, two sides of a tale can be shown. The ones fighting to get back their homes and the ones out to avenge their slain masters. I'd be happy with that but all the Control and Synthesis (and Refuse) people would get up in arms. There are also the quarians / geth and the genophage decisions to somehow resolve without annoying too many people. I've chucked this idea out in the past - Reapers gone, relays damaged, but only the active ones. There's nothing saying that they aren't well outnumbered by still dormant relays, and those could remain unaffected. So you could use them to have an explore the galaxy game, running into new areas, perhaps even a group of active relays disconnected from the rest and a new power using them for new enemies and allies (after all fear of that was why reactivating dormant ones was illegal), and every now and then reconnecting to a bit of the familiar Mass Effect universe. I don't think the Control and Synthesis fans are all that big a problem. Hysterical hate of the non-preferred endings seemed to be confined to Destroy fans, from what I saw on the old boards, and there aren't very many Synthesis fans in the first place. I'm not sure we need to keep non-active relays functional. You'd still have the problem of getting to the local terminus of the inactive relay. Anyway, mass effect drives are about as good as Star Trek warp drives (Reaper drives are better.)
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Sairys on May 13, 2017 15:46:21 GMT
That's not to say they couldn't have done a better job. A more serious tone in the sequel would certainly help foster that feeling of character growth. You just have to be willing to play the long game. I'm certainly not larger than life. But the crap Addison says at the start, not even me would have swallowed without a comeback along the lines of "you need me, so kindly cut the crap". But that's not an option. You have to take her comment and many ensuing ones. At some points, such as the meetings on the Tempest, the game even goes into autopilot to deliver the stupid lines of not being killed, in order for Cora having her comment about Krogans. Or the squadmates simply filing out without turning back to leave my character looking like an idiot. These are the things not sitting well with me. The things pointing out you're a douche and can't do anything about it. That scene where Ryder is having a meeting with everyone and they all turn and leave on her and she responds like a 14 yr old with the weak "I didn't dismiss everyone." was so full of ugh. Her own team treated her like that. There was no growth to her at all. And her weak forgiving of Peebee for that stunt with the escape hatch? A stronger character would have had the ability to either accept that OR KICK HER OFF THE SHIP and off the team. Ryder never got a backbone in this game.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Sairys on May 13, 2017 15:50:26 GMT
Then give them the opportunity to grow, damn it. Apart from a select few instances, this character doesn't evolve. The developers made sure of it. I don't know if it was getting rid of Paragon/Renegade or the insufferable attempts at humor they felt like inserting into this game. But I don't feel the vibe of my character growing. I'm not sure about you, but in terms of people's reactions to my character, at least, it felt like Ryder went from someone everyone questioned at the start of the game to the respected senior pathfinder by the end. It's also tricky to pull off significant player-character growth in a single game that isn't jarring and doesn't take away player agency. Paragon/Renegade doesn't really have anything to do with it, and you could always try moving more towards the 'professional' or 'logical' tones as the game progresses (that would cut down on some of the humour). That's not to say they couldn't have done a better job. A more serious tone in the sequel would certainly help foster that feeling of character growth. You just have to be willing to play the long game. I disagree whole-heartedly. The leaders at Nexus went from rude to just a tad tolerable. Her own team walked out at the end of a meeting, and you have people like Peebee that disrespect your authority enough to hit that escape pod button. Shepard/Jedi/Hawk/Dovakiin/Pick a Big-Damn-Hero would have dismissed her from the team on the spot at the very least.
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Post by abaris on May 13, 2017 15:51:18 GMT
That scene where Ryder is having a meeting with everyone and they all turn and leave on her and she responds like a 14 yr old with the weak "I didn't dismiss everyone." was so full of ugh. Her own team treated her like that. There was no growth to her at all. And her weak forgiving of Peebee for that stunt with the escape hatch? A stronger character would have had the ability to either accept that OR KICK HER OFF THE SHIP and off the team. Ryder never got a backbone in this game. Pretty much, yes. It's what the writers obviouly mistook for humor. Forgetting that, since we're supposed to identify with that character, the joke's obviously on us. And a lame one at that.
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