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Post by R'Shara on May 16, 2017 3:32:07 GMT
Structure = boring after playing the same story over and over again. There's more to mining and fighting on Voeld than there was in Overlorld I can go to Voeld now and make my own structure or I can replay overlord dlc and expect the same route, the same exact enemy placements with no deviations at all. I'll never understand having less freedom in a game especially when the story like in MEA is separate on its own I'd be happy if the storyline part of the game was consistent and didn't have continuity errors all over the place. Even the side quests and tasks have those problems.
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Post by malgus on May 16, 2017 3:51:04 GMT
Actually I HATED the corridor shooter of the second mass effect, it was a horrible thing because it took me out of the experience for several reasons. The first mass effect may not had an open world, but it certainly had exterior where I could visualize the world where I was, It made me feel part of a universe. While in mass effect 2, lots of planet made me feel like in a fucking prison, tuchanka is among the worst. It was more claustrophobic than ever, when I was told I was going to visit the krogan homeworld, I was super excited, UNTIL I saw what was to "visit". Which was a claustrophobic base with four walls and no way to see the exterior, I got to visit the urdnot base which may have been on on another world and It would have been the fucking same because its simply an underground base like many before, and if its not one, it fucking looks like it That was Immersion breaking, because when I realize I could not go outside unless it was for mordin or grunt mission, (and there was no reason why shepard could not go outside and see the world of tuchanka for what it was), I was reminded that it was the limit of the developper made. I was reminded that this limit exists because its a game that was not program to be more open, that is the part where it reminded me I am not part of a universe, but of a game, it was a less bad version of an invisible wall but still immersion breaking. Because there is no reason that our favorite comander could not visit this planet, AT ALL. especially When you remember that shepard has the time to solve the problem of fucking everyone : miranda's sister, jacob's father, samara's daughter, thane's son, zaeed's previous associates, etc. We have all the time in the world in mass effect 2 to fucking visit tuchanka, but no, we only got and underground base and fade to black in-between mission... I hated that part because it made me feel less part of a living universe and more part of a game that put limits very quickly to his world. It was god awful and had no justification at all. Here in mass effect andromeda, the context more than justifies the exploration because as Scott ryder said : "We're explorer not an army", we go into a galaxy we don't know, we go on planets we don't know everything about, the iniative do not fight only the ketts, outlaws or remnants or roekar. The initiative has to fight for survival, their ressources are rare and disminishing constantly, we are not just a soldier fighting an ennemy, we are there to explore a new galaxy to find a new home for the species of the milky way. MEA has problems with his open world, like navigation between planets needs to be more practical, a few clicks should be enough to immediatly be teleported to an other planet, we also need to have the ability to equip things on the field and not be forced to go back to a station just to equip things that you have in your inventory. But that does not mean everything is to be thrown out, the open world should be improved instead of being remove. Right now in MEA it is better made than in DAI, but it should be upgraded to be better, to make everything feel more alive and interesting in the sequel. I hated the claustrophobic tone of ME 2 especially tuchanka and I don't want ME to return to that.
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Post by Furisco on May 16, 2017 4:35:15 GMT
Give us a bunch of planets like H-047c instead of planets like Eos. That planet was the perfect middle ground. I say kadara is. H-047 was rather boring and nothing there. Havarl is too small and compact. I don't like how you have to travel on foot there. Kadara is the perfect middle ground of a planet for me. Well... H-047c had a few cool and important quests there. The planet is beautiful, atmospheric and cool to explore. and it wasn't full of filler content. I was so happy while playing on that planet that it didn't even felt like i was playing the same game. Kadara was just like Eos but with a bunch of giant mushrooms. Hub worlds it is.
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Post by Doctor Fumbles on May 16, 2017 4:39:22 GMT
I say kadara is. H-047 was rather boring and nothing there. Havarl is too small and compact. I don't like how you have to travel on foot there. Kadara is the perfect middle ground of a planet for me. Well... H-047c had a few cool and important quests there. The planet is beautiful, atmospheric and cool to explore. and it wasn't full of filler content. I was so happy while playing on that planet that it didn't even felt like i was playing the same game. Kadara was just like Eos but with a bunch of giant mushrooms. Hub worlds it is. I found the emptiness boring on H-047. I like the filler because it is entertaining to me to stop. Pop off a few rounds while taking a little outpost, then I move on. That is one of my complaints for the worlds in ME1. Most of the them were too boring and lifeless. I like having things to do that are not main quest related.
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Post by alanc9 on May 16, 2017 4:46:31 GMT
That was Immersion breaking, because when I realize I could not go outside unless it was for mordin or grunt mission, (and there was no reason why shepard could not go outside and see the world of tuchanka for what it was), I was reminded that it was the limit of the developper made. I was reminded that this limit exists because its a game that was not program to be more open, that is the part where it reminded me I am not part of a universe, but of a game, it was a less bad version of an invisible wall but still immersion breaking. Because there is no reason that our favorite comander could not visit this planet, AT ALL. especially When you remember that shepard has the time to solve the problem of fucking everyone : miranda's sister, jacob's father, samara's daughter, thane's son, zaeed's previous associates, etc. We have all the time in the world in mass effect 2 to fucking visit tuchanka, but no, we only got and underground base and fade to black in-between mission... This is incoherent. Playing tourist on Tuchanka has no relevance to Shepard's mission, but the LMs do. (Unless your Shepards don't believe in the loyalty mechanic?) I don't se how letting Shepard pointlessly wander around a blasted ruin of a planet is worth even one zot. If anything, doing that would have hurt my immersion. Of course, I just would have passed on the pointless wandering around even if I could make Shepard pointlessly wander around, so for me it's just a resource issue.
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Post by Doctor Fumbles on May 16, 2017 4:50:28 GMT
That was Immersion breaking, because when I realize I could not go outside unless it was for mordin or grunt mission, (and there was no reason why shepard could not go outside and see the world of tuchanka for what it was), I was reminded that it was the limit of the developper made. I was reminded that this limit exists because its a game that was not program to be more open, that is the part where it reminded me I am not part of a universe, but of a game, it was a less bad version of an invisible wall but still immersion breaking. Because there is no reason that our favorite comander could not visit this planet, AT ALL. especially When you remember that shepard has the time to solve the problem of fucking everyone : miranda's sister, jacob's father, samara's daughter, thane's son, zaeed's previous associates, etc. We have all the time in the world in mass effect 2 to fucking visit tuchanka, but no, we only got and underground base and fade to black in-between mission... This is incoherent. Playing tourist on Tuchanka has no relevance to Shepard's mission, but the LMs do. (Unless your Shepards don't believe in the loyalty mechanic?) I don't se how letting Shepard pointlessly wander around a blasted ruin of a planet is worth even one zot. If anything, doing that would have hurt my immersion. Of course, I just would have passed on the pointless wandering around even if I could make Shepard pointlessly wander around, so for me it's just a resource issue. I actually would have loved to explore Tuchanka more. The same with all the alien homeworlds. Being pigeonholed into one route is not fun in my eyes when there are entire planets to explore.
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Post by malgus on May 16, 2017 4:57:34 GMT
That was Immersion breaking, because when I realize I could not go outside unless it was for mordin or grunt mission, (and there was no reason why shepard could not go outside and see the world of tuchanka for what it was), I was reminded that it was the limit of the developper made. I was reminded that this limit exists because its a game that was not program to be more open, that is the part where it reminded me I am not part of a universe, but of a game, it was a less bad version of an invisible wall but still immersion breaking. Because there is no reason that our favorite comander could not visit this planet, AT ALL. especially When you remember that shepard has the time to solve the problem of fucking everyone : miranda's sister, jacob's father, samara's daughter, thane's son, zaeed's previous associates, etc. We have all the time in the world in mass effect 2 to fucking visit tuchanka, but no, we only got and underground base and fade to black in-between mission... This is incoherent. Playing tourist on Tuchanka has no relevance to Shepard's mission, but the LMs do. (Unless your Shepards don't believe in the loyalty mechanic?) I don't se how letting Shepard pointlessly wander around a blasted ruin of a planet is worth even one zot. If anything, doing that would have hurt my immersion. Of course, I just would have passed on the pointless wandering around even if I could make Shepard pointlessly wander around, so for me it's just a resource issue. Oh they could have written something to make it justifiable, for exemple if they don,t axactly know where maelon exactly is, well we would have to search on tuchanka, to find information, speak to different krogans about him that would make us discover tuchanka by ourselves before finally knowing where he is and completing mordin mission. Its not about "playing tourist" its about exploring a world destroy by nuclear bomb, but giving you this feel of discovering a world you have never seen before and not creating barriers. Oh and I always fond the loyalty mechanic to be shitty in ME 2, I am all for personnal quest for each companion, but that their survival depends on doing their mission, I hated that.
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Post by RageUnderFire on May 16, 2017 5:01:20 GMT
The irony
Havarl is the most corridor planet but the open world planets are better.
It's like BioWare focused so much on open world that they forgot how to do shooter corridors.
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Post by R'Shara on May 16, 2017 5:12:49 GMT
It's not the open world. It's the content of the open world. Open the map the first time you land on any planet, and what are 2/3 of the quest markers?
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Post by Doctor Fumbles on May 16, 2017 5:14:03 GMT
The irony Havarl is the most corridor planet but the open world planets are better. It's like BioWare focused so much on open world that they forgot how to do shooter corridors. I say stay away from shooter corridors. If I wanted one of those, I would play the story mode on any COD game.
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Post by RageUnderFire on May 16, 2017 5:21:31 GMT
ME2 was the magical middle ground now that I feel it again.
It was primarily a corridor shooter but they made those spaces open enough to annoy straight forward time valuing players like me.
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Post by dmc1001 on May 16, 2017 5:23:20 GMT
I voted for "magic". I don't think the openish world is going away anytime soon. So, rather than fight that losing battle, how about ask them to beef up the storylines?
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Post by Doctor Fumbles on May 16, 2017 5:23:46 GMT
ME2 was the magical middle ground now that I feel it again. It was primarily a corridor shooter but they made those spaces open enough to annoy straight forward time valuing players like me. I would say the areas in ME2 were too small. Me3 did a better job of opening the spaces up.
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Post by kumazan on May 16, 2017 7:57:37 GMT
ME2 was the magical middle ground now that I feel it again. It was primarily a corridor shooter but they made those spaces open enough to annoy straight forward time valuing players like me. Open enough? More straightforward than ME2 I can only think of Time Crisis.
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Post by helios969 on May 16, 2017 8:08:12 GMT
Middle ground just because I don't see them reverting to a pure corridor game. I thought MEA was a massive improvement on the openworld system over DAI, but the problem is there are not enough critical paths storywise to maintain the narrative. In this regard, MEA was even worse than DAI. So I would say either EA needs to double the development budget in order to successfully fill these massive worlds, or seriously scale them back so the narrative stays in the foreground. I think if we would have even one less hub world and replaced with one additional "chapter" involving the Kett and the Archon that would have made a significant difference in overall impressions.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2017 8:11:13 GMT
Today, too many games are going for the over the top massive open world which on paper is s good idea but the game itself can get lost in this massive world.
ME A is huge! But it's a big open world with same things just s different backdrop. I'm really trying to finish ME A but I'm struggling to stay entertained.
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Post by mordingrimes on May 16, 2017 8:27:53 GMT
Today, too many games are going for the over the top massive open world which on paper is s good idea but the game itself can get lost in this massive world. ME A is huge! But it's a big open world with same things just s different backdrop. I'm really trying to finish ME A but I'm struggling to stay entertained.I fell asleep at one point, the open world fetch quests just boring.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2017 8:31:40 GMT
Today, too many games are going for the over the top massive open world which on paper is s good idea but the game itself can get lost in this massive world. ME A is huge! But it's a big open world with same things just s different backdrop. I'm really trying to finish ME A but I'm struggling to stay entertained.I fell asleep at one point, the open world fetch quests just boring. This. Also I am just completing the priorty missions now to get to the end so I haven't wasted my money.
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Post by projectpatdc on May 16, 2017 8:36:25 GMT
Well... H-047c had a few cool and important quests there. The planet is beautiful, atmospheric and cool to explore. and it wasn't full of filler content. I was so happy while playing on that planet that it didn't even felt like i was playing the same game. Kadara was just like Eos but with a bunch of giant mushrooms. Hub worlds it is. I found the emptiness boring on H-047. I like the filler because it is entertaining to me to stop. Pop off a few rounds while taking a little outpost, then I move on. That is one of my complaints for the worlds in ME1. Most of the them were too boring and lifeless. I like having things to do that are not main quest related. I love H-047 because of the change in gameplay but it felt too short for how awesome the planet was. I wanted there to be more missions, domes, outposts, etc there. Again, this is where vehicle combat could have been a lot of fun. Not a ton of vehicle combat but a few enemies to take out
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Post by alanc9 on May 16, 2017 14:57:13 GMT
This is incoherent. Playing tourist on Tuchanka has no relevance to Shepard's mission, but the LMs do. (Unless your Shepards don't believe in the loyalty mechanic?) I don't se how letting Shepard pointlessly wander around a blasted ruin of a planet is worth even one zot. If anything, doing that would have hurt my immersion. Of course, I just would have passed on the pointless wandering around even if I could make Shepard pointlessly wander around, so for me it's just a resource issue. I actually would have loved to explore Tuchanka more. The same with all the alien homeworlds. Being pigeonholed into one route is not fun in my eyes when there are entire planets to explore. Sure. This is a personal taste thing. I only posted to point out that "immersion" isn't a very useful argument since what immerses us doesn't transfer well. I find that exploration is bad for my immersion in most games. It just points out the unreality of the game world. (This is a problem with the CRPG genre itself, or rather, a subcategory of the general issue that a lot of the better parts of PnP didn't transfer to CRPGs.)
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Post by roivas on May 16, 2017 15:54:50 GMT
I really liked the exploration the Story & character in ME1, so I like to think that open world & good story / character is still soemthing possible nowdays.
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Post by kalasaurus on May 16, 2017 16:00:38 GMT
I'm probably in the minority here, but I liked the open world approach that MEA took. Unlike DAI, the side quests and even most of the fetch quests (like scanning native plants, animals and minerals) made sense to the main story and were far more engaging. I had an incentive to complete them because exploration was a goal of the AI.
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Post by R'Shara on May 16, 2017 16:06:32 GMT
You know, one thing that makes open world games like Skyrim feel organic is the little dungeons and townships and farmsteads and the like that you can encounter. Or NPCs that you find who you can interact with and sometimes do quests or have friendships or do business with. In MEA, there's only a few isolated groups of NPCs you can interact with, very very few dungeons and the like.
I mean sure, a random NPC standing outside their house pleading with you to help her with her rat problem is pretty silly. But it did lend the feeling of the world being alive, instead of boring and static.
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Post by RageUnderFire on May 16, 2017 18:04:30 GMT
An advantage Andromeda's open world has over ME2 and ME3.
You can go into combat without going into missions.
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Post by AnDromedary on May 16, 2017 19:47:29 GMT
I actually would have loved to explore Tuchanka more. The same with all the alien homeworlds. Being pigeonholed into one route is not fun in my eyes when there are entire planets to explore. Sure. This is a personal taste thing. I only posted to point out that "immersion" isn't a very useful argument since what immerses us doesn't transfer well. I find that exploration is bad for my immersion in most games. It just points out the unreality of the game world. (This is a problem with the CRPG genre itself, or rather, a subcategory of the general issue that a lot of the better parts of PnP didn't transfer to CRPGs.) That really depends on how it's done. there are games that do it very well and I'd say, you being the Pathfinder and all, ME:A is one of the better examples. Sure, the boundaries of the worlds are stupid but there would have been better ways to do it (e.g. on Eos, instead of holographic walls, you just make the boundaries by having extreme radiation hazards beyond, etc.). But in terms of story, I think it worked. What I was missing in ME:A though was the diversity. Basically, they made one planet and then copy/pasted the formula for it 4 times and changed some textures and effects. That's not cool for exploring (ME1 did the same, possibly even more so btw). There were only 4 places that were different: - The Loyalty missions and the story missions, which were linear but you went into them on purpose - The hub areasa, which were hub areas, we knew that much - Hawarl, which IMO was a nice change of pace - The asteroid that used to be the turian planet - finally, something a bit different with those domes and the different gravity and such, good stuff. That's a start but it still lacks diversity because with the exception of Hawarl and that asteroid, you always know in advance what you are getting into. After Eos, you know, ok, this will be the next big Nomad planet or ok, this will be a linear loyalty/story mission, etc. and then you go and tick all the boxes for the pre-established mechanics for that. That's not cool for exploring. What I want to see in Mass Effect game is the kind diversity where you as a player fly into a new star system and you do not know what you'll get. You actually have to go there and find out. It might be: - A bigger planet like Eos (maybe not quite as big, 1/3 of the size would be enough) - A very small mission like an ME2 N7 mission - A nice, story heavy linear side mission like ME3's Gellix or Grissom Academy - A smaller open area to explor with the Nomad to find some specific stuff (like the ME1 planets) - An open area that has a story to it (like BDtS) - A linear section for your the Nomad (like the first part of Virmire or the Volcano mapin Overlord) - A non-combat more puzzle and/or dialogue based mission (like Samara's LM in ME2 or - very crude example but IIRC the only one ME ever had - that shield generator N7 mission in ME2, puzzles could be expanded on with the scanner and everything, see here) - Maybe, just something dialogue based, where we stay on the Tempest and communicate with another vessel (hasn't really been done in ME for an unknown reason, happens in every single Star Trek episode though) The possibilities are almost endless. ME already has this natural division of their game world, where your ship is your mobile hub and you access maps or levels from there at your leisure. It's a great setup to introduce diverse gameplay that will never get boring but what gets me in all the ME games is that - while the devs changed things around massively between games - they stay very formulaic within each game. Despite the fact that it would be so easy to implement this kind of variety through the different levels. I guarantee, if they went away from their formula and managed to surprise us and keep us guessing what we might find in each new star system we explore, it would keep players so busy and engaged, they could get away with a lot more shortcuts in the details of things (not that I want to advertise for those, I'm just saying, if something's got to give, it shouldn't be basic design variety).
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