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Post by colfoley on May 28, 2017 23:14:31 GMT
but the thing is the Tok'ra...or different philosophies in the Wrath Empire were introduced in season 2 and i believe season 3 respectively. Andromeda is roughly season 1 of a long term story. And the Goa'uld were about as interesting as the kett in season 1. Besides its not like Bioware hasn't done this before. Introduce us to a pathetically one dimensional villain factions only to flesh them out later. True enough. But this is an excuse for why things aren't great, and why they *may* get better in the future, which isn't ideal.
There's also something to be said for the fact that things which are excusable once or twice, aren't necessarily excusable when you repeat them ad nauseam. DA:O and ME1 had a lot of things going for them, the take on the formula was rather fresh, and so was the style of the game, there weren't too many games like them at the time.
Now the situation is quite different.
no one makes games like Bioware does...well in the western hemisphere .
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Post by Elfen Lied on May 29, 2017 14:22:30 GMT
The only good villain BioWare has done, id argue, is Loghain. Imho Jade Empire had the best BW villain.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2017 15:08:01 GMT
The only good villain BioWare has done, id argue, is Loghain. Imho Jade Empire had the best BW villain. It indeed, did, but I want to see where they are going with DA4. I want to see if the updated version of Jon Irenicus is going to blow me away. But, Solas needs to actually play as an antagonist for a bit before everything will come together as one heck of a villain package.
I am also hoping for intermediate bosses like Kai Leng and Skavak (I know folks did not like Kai Leng, but I did) that are persistent, have a bit of development and a lot of fun to eventually kill.
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Post by linksocarina on May 29, 2017 17:16:03 GMT
True, I think the Kett has potential though. In particular how the Primus went against the Archon... That small little scene, while it may mean nothing in Andromeda, makes the Kett somewhat more power-hungry and ambitious on their theocratic mandate. There is so much potential there...the hope is BioWare can get the chance to do something about it. Sure, there is some intrigue and backstabbing, but that's hardly enough to make up for the fact that the Kett have the word "generic" practically carved into their foreheads, or the fact that their genetic consumption of other species is a reboot of the Reaper thing - and I would argue an inferior reboot if only due to the fact that you just told this story not long ago, you don't get to regurgitate it again and expect everyone to applaud just because you want to call the new game a "soft reboot" or whatever.
The idea that the Kett have different factions within them isn't half as dramatic as you are making it sound, certainly not enough to make them seem less like "generic hostile aliens number 37".
To me, the Kett look like an unholy mix of elements taken from existing designs of aliens from different franchises, the Turians, the Protheans, the Collectors, and some resemblance to certain enemies from Halo, Destiny, and the "Grineer" faction from Warframe.
They could have made even that more interesting if they went with a similar route to how Stargate handled the Goa'uld Vs. Tok'ra conflict. The idea that some Kett could be against these practices, perhaps those that retained much of what they were before the "exaltation".
It's just one example, but the way they were handled was extremely disappointing. We went all the way to another galaxy just to meet an adversary that didn't have anything original or even "Alien" about him. It's as if the more things change, the more they stay the same.
The Kett (and the Angara) needed their own version of space magic, that just happens to work almost exactly like Biotics, but contrary to biotics which were invented as a whole including the pseudo-scientific explanation for why they work, the new "aliens" just happen to control "bio-electricity" and "electromagnetic-fields", and are using them in a way which most certainly makes no sense.
The difference is that with Biotics, assuming Eezo exists, one could suspend their disbelief into accepting these fantastic applications. But this? This is lazy as fuck and breaks suspension of disbelief for anyone with even a vague understanding of how "electromagnetic-fields" and "bio-electricity" work.
Irenicus has generic on his forehead too though...megalomaniacal, vengeful elf wizard with god-like powers who is trying to exalt revenge for his dead lover because of personal reasons, arrogant and doing what he can to manipulate events to unlock your potential so he can steal it. I mean, write the cliches there too...but it works with Irenicus (even though I personally find him overrated) because of the charisma of the performance and the actual depth he is given in a game series which previously had none (original Baldur's Gate, I mean.) I agree, the Kett are very safe in their design and kind of generic, but it is the retelling of such cliches that can be the twist that makes them fresh. It's why people gravitated toward Irenicus in the first place; he is a walking cliche, but he's good at it. The Kett can be the same...the question is will they in the future?
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Post by KaiserShep on May 29, 2017 17:29:10 GMT
The only good villain BioWare has done, id argue, is Loghain. Imho Jade Empire had the best BW villain. Personally I always considered Howe more of a villain than Loghain, especially if you play the human noble. Loghain could fall in a ditch for all I cared, but Howe? I wanted to gut him alive.
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Post by Reorte on May 29, 2017 17:34:49 GMT
The only good villain BioWare has done, id argue, is Loghain. Solas has potential to be even better...and the Archon...kind of weak, but the Kett themselves (especially with the Primus) might be more interesting in the long run. Loghain's good. I had shivers run down my spine when I first had that scene with him recalling his troops in DAO. He's not twodimensional either, since you can win him as an ally to reappear in DAI. Solas, stands to argue that he's not really a villain. The Archon, I for one get the feeling of him not being more or less generic than other villains we had before. Loghain was doing what he did for entirely convincing reasons, not because he was a "Mwahahaha I'm evil and I'm doing nasty things for evil's sake!" villain. For that reason he feels much more like the genuine bad guy of DAO, and his non-enemy parts seem just as convincing because they're still entirely in character. The kett had a few moments of showing some inclination of being more than just weaker mindless Reapers, there's potential to flesh them out. A good villain needs to have some redeeming features and something we can emphasis with I think, whilst at the same time making us want to punch them (Loghain's arrogance did that).
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Post by Reorte on May 29, 2017 17:35:46 GMT
Personally I always considered Howe more of a villain than Loghain, especially if you play the human noble. Loghain could fall in a ditch for all I cared, but Howe? I wanted to gut him alive. Howe's the one with no redeeming features, so an easier guy to hate but less interesting. My first playthrough was as human noble, and it felt so good when I got to kill him.
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Post by linksocarina on May 29, 2017 18:04:38 GMT
Howe's the one with no redeeming features, so an easier guy to hate but less interesting. My first playthrough was as human noble, and it felt so good when I got to kill him. A well-written revenge story is always guaranteed to elicit reactions from most people. And Tim Curry...he helps a ton.
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Post by vonuber on May 29, 2017 18:15:54 GMT
I think TIM is the best villain.
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Post by colfoley on May 29, 2017 19:20:58 GMT
no one makes games like Bioware does...well in the western hemisphere . That's not quite true anymore, but even if it was, it wouldn't make the criticism any less valid.
criticisms...especially the ones you brought up...are only really valid if i agree with them. And i don't. I see your point. But i disagree.
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Post by KaiserShep on May 30, 2017 1:35:00 GMT
Howe's the one with no redeeming features, so an easier guy to hate but less interesting. My first playthrough was as human noble, and it felt so good when I got to kill him. A well-written revenge story is always guaranteed to elicit reactions from most people. And I love a good old fashioned revenge story. In the end, Loghain was more Alistair's demon than my Warden's. Just about the only thing that really bugged me about this though was the last minute presentation of the Joining choice. The fact that this was supposed to be super secret really tried its damnedest to take me out of the scene. Like, shut up Riordan and Anora. Your'e totally screwing this up. Now stand back while I behead this fool.
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Post by SeranusGaming on May 30, 2017 1:42:50 GMT
I think TIM is the best villain. I think I'd have to agree with you there. In some ways, I could understand his point of view and see how parts of his plans might have worked. His problem was that he simply went too far - he forgot the ethical boundaries and ultimately went down a road from whence there is no recovery.
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Post by colfoley on May 30, 2017 1:49:31 GMT
Tim is hard to guage. Loved him as an anti hero but somehow him being a villain cheapened him.
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Post by bshep on May 30, 2017 3:13:25 GMT
TIM was never a anti-hero. He was a brutal and very manipulative villain.
The "shades of gray" on his actions were only a play so Shepard could tolerate to work with him.
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Post by KaiserShep on May 30, 2017 3:17:07 GMT
TIM was never a anti-hero. He was a brutal and very manipulative villain. The "shades of gray" on his actions were only a play so Shepard could tolerate to work with him. Eh, the whole indoctrination thing was basically his undoing. In his own way, TIM saved the galaxy, even if he ended up being a pain in the ass trying to undo that.
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Post by bshep on May 30, 2017 3:27:47 GMT
TIM was never a anti-hero. He was a brutal and very manipulative villain. The "shades of gray" on his actions were only a play so Shepard could tolerate to work with him. Eh, the whole indoctrination thing was basically his undoing. In his own way, TIM saved the galaxy, even if he ended up being a pain in the ass trying to undo that. I am talking about all the shady things that Cerberus as doing on ME1, like using Dragon's teeth tech on a colonist team on Chasca or cloning Rachni and sending them against soldiers to test their might, and also ME2 with the whole Overlord thing. Then by the ending of this game (ME2) there is that line "Cerberus is humanity!". Even before ME3 it was clear to me TIM wasn't "morally gray".
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Post by colfoley on May 30, 2017 3:34:15 GMT
If his actions saved the Galaxy though? One interesting thing about how the MET did its morality, the Paragon and Renegade system, is that it played with common morality. It wasn't about 'good' and 'evil' or 'darkside' and 'lightside' but about doing what was neccessary or trying to find a dipplomatic soultion to your problems.
Besides, as it was revealed countless times in ME 2, and even a fair few times in Andromeda even, TIM was someone and Cerberus in general was someone who did not have good control over his organization. he had rogue cells all over the place. Which is a really interesting philosophical point but I suspect in universe it might be a side effect of his Reaper indoctrination.
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Post by decafhigh on May 30, 2017 15:41:27 GMT
If his actions saved the Galaxy though? One interesting thing about how the MET did its morality, the Paragon and Renegade system, is that it played with common morality. It wasn't about 'good' and 'evil' or 'darkside' and 'lightside' but about doing what was neccessary or trying to find a dipplomatic soultion to your problems. Besides, as it was revealed countless times in ME 2, and even a fair few times in Andromeda even, TIM was someone and Cerberus in general was someone who did not have good control over his organization. he had rogue cells all over the place. Which is a really interesting philosophical point but I suspect in universe it might be a side effect of his Reaper indoctrination. Meh, I always assumed TIM covered his tracks just well enough to have "plausible deniability". I never thought any of the cells were actually "rogue" cells, they were doing exactly what he told them to do. TIM was just careful enough to make sure nothing ever got tracked back to him.
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Post by SeranusGaming on May 30, 2017 17:49:09 GMT
TIM was just careful enough to make sure nothing ever got tracked back to him. And this is why we will find out in ME:A2 that TIM is actually in Andromeda and he's behind everything the Archon has done in some attempt to build an army to defeat the Reapers. It is, the ultimate Mass Effect conspiracy theory! Time to go and put my aluminum hat back on... -the voices in my head told me to post this.
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Post by bshep on May 30, 2017 17:49:34 GMT
If his actions saved the Galaxy though? One interesting thing about how the MET did its morality, the Paragon and Renegade system, is that it played with common morality. It wasn't about 'good' and 'evil' or 'darkside' and 'lightside' but about doing what was neccessary or trying to find a dipplomatic soultion to your problems. Besides, as it was revealed countless times in ME 2, and even a fair few times in Andromeda even, TIM was someone and Cerberus in general was someone who did not have good control over his organization. he had rogue cells all over the place. Which is a really interesting philosophical point but I suspect in universe it might be a side effect of his Reaper indoctrination. Meh, I always assumed TIM covered his tracks just well enough to have "plausible deniability". I never thought any of the cells were actually "rogue" cells, they were doing exactly what he told them to do. TIM was just careful enough to make sure nothing ever got tracked back to him. Indeed. TIM had full control over all cells, EDI reveals this after Joker frees her.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2017 19:37:54 GMT
I never let the reviews taint the game for me. Come to think of it, the last time I actually put any faith in the "games media" and their "critics" was when I... I actually can't remember as its been so long. xD
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Post by bacon4breakfast on May 30, 2017 19:56:23 GMT
This game is better than my initial impressions. However, I find myself skipping most of the dialogue and insanity is too easy.
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Post by SeranusGaming on May 31, 2017 14:50:35 GMT
Honestly, I think the thing that bothers me the most are just some of the really dumb "fetch" quests. It's similar to what was done in DA:I where, as a player, you're initially wondering if the quest is important to the story or if this is just something else to skip. As a completionist player, this drives me nuts. MUST...NOT...CLICK...ON...THE...FETCH...QUEST... DOH! Too late!
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Post by KLGChaos on Jun 1, 2017 0:42:18 GMT
The game has some issues, but for the most part it was really enjoyable. I do wish certain characters, like Captain Dunn, were fleshed out a bit more as they play an important role during the last mission.
But hey, the combat is great, I liked most of the crew, and they've done a lot to fix MP, so I'm fairly happy.
Now they just need to fix those gargantuan cheekbones everyone has that makes them look like they have the mumps.
I think the only problem I have storywise is that outside of the Angara, who are interesting, the cluster does feel a bit empty (though there are story line reasons for it). The original trilogy felt very alive, with the Citadel, a lot of different races in conflict, and even corporate corruption everywhere. Andromeda is missing a lot of that.
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Post by KaiserShep on Jun 1, 2017 0:50:23 GMT
Now they just need to fix those gargantuan cheekbones everyone has that makes them look like they have the mumps. Yeah, when I first went into the CC, the first thing I did when I got to the face sculpting tab was bring those cheekbones in a lot for both male and female.
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