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Post by shechinah on Jun 7, 2017 19:49:34 GMT
Wasn't Jaal supposed to be bi originally? I know a lot of times actors will read dialogue that will never make it into the game like Harkin hitting on Princess BroShep. I do seem to recall Jaal being mentioned as an option for both male and female Ryder very early on though. Not confirmed by an official word that I've seen: I've only seen it as fandom speculation. While there is cut content for Jaal, I've heard that it's only one soundfile and it's from Scott: "I love you too, Jaal" This seems the same cut content as the placeholder line for Sera. The only other evidence I've seen is an absence of a scene in which Jaal turns down the player but and I may be mistaken, I don't think there are any flirt lines implemented and so there wouldn't be a need for Jaal to turn down male Ryder as no advances has been made. I haven't seen the team portray this as something that they wanted to implement earlier but were unable to for whatever reason and instead they seem to portray it as a change that they feel can be justified enough to avoid inconsistency. Basically: it's not something that they always intended to do and could only do now. It's something that they decided to do that they didn't previously plan on doing.
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Post by turianlannister on Jun 7, 2017 19:51:19 GMT
Great! So they have spent time money and resources into giving us YET another alien to bugger up? Bioware needs help, they are losing the plot. 'Yet another alien to bugger up?' Since when were aliens available for gay male sex? This is the first one, so he can't be 'yet another' one, I think you're confused dearie
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Post by turianlannister on Jun 7, 2017 19:54:09 GMT
I know there is cut content for Kaidan and Ashley in ME1 for gay romances, just as there is cut content for Tali and Miranda for femshep. Probably never got developed though. The nexus modders have restored each and every scene that didn't make it into the finished game, but was hidden in the files somewhere. Such as the original meeting with the Cerberus engineers instead of just having a mail about them being allowed back. They did the same with FO4, which provided quite a few more meaningful scenes than the finished game showed us. So there may have been plans, but it's certainly not in the game. Otherwise one of them would have found them. Especially since there's a mod allowing for a lesbian Ashley romance. Without voice though. There's a voiced lesbian romance mod for Ashley for ME1 because Jennifer Hale recorded male Shepard's lines as well. (same with Mark Meer and FemShep, if you use the s/s romance mod Harkin hits on MShep)
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Post by turianlannister on Jun 7, 2017 20:07:33 GMT
Apparently Jaal was supposed to be bi from the jump according to dev tweets. Seems to me further proof EA rushed the game out the door and now BW is retroactively trying to make good on promises. Whatevs... doesn't really effect me in any way... besides the whole, resources could be put to better use in other areas, but fuck me, right? The irritating part about it is that Suvi was supposed to be bi as well, but that got nixed and she is lesbian only. You can bet your ass that that won't ever be changed because something something political agenda, no matter how much the fans beg. Suvi's writer always intended her to be a lesbian though
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2017 20:09:48 GMT
Apparently Jaal was supposed to be bi from the jump according to dev tweets. Seems to me further proof EA rushed the game out the door and now BW is retroactively trying to make good on promises. Whatevs... doesn't really effect me in any way... besides the whole, resources could be put to better use in other areas, but fuck me, right? The irritating part about it is that Suvi was supposed to be bi as well, but that got nixed and she is lesbian only. You can bet your ass that that won't ever be changed because something something political agenda, no matter how much the fans beg. Suvi's writer always intended her to be a lesbian though Early builds pretty much debunk that.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jun 7, 2017 20:14:28 GMT
Just be warned, there are some truly terrible graphics in Babylon 5, which can make it very jarring at first. You'll eventually get used to it, and its well-worth getting past season 2 as it gets better every season. I do wish they would do a remaster of it with graphics for the space scenes that do the series justice. I think I read something about the originals being lost or damaged somehow so they can't do that. I mean you could always recreate the space only scenes, but the ones where you have to composit the actors? Tougher to pull off. And then there's the cost...
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Post by sil on Jun 7, 2017 20:23:58 GMT
Just be warned, there are some truly terrible graphics in Babylon 5, which can make it very jarring at first. You'll eventually get used to it, and its well-worth getting past season 2 as it gets better every season. I do wish they would do a remaster of it with graphics for the space scenes that do the series justice. I think I read something about the originals being lost or damaged somehow so they can't do that. I mean you could always recreate the space only scenes, but the ones where you have to composit the actors? Tougher to pull off. And then there's the cost... The cost would be worth it. But then, I want Stargate SG-1 to be tuned up too, man, I'd love to watch that Blu-ray quality with updated visuals
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Post by shechinah on Jun 7, 2017 20:27:32 GMT
well liam quite EXPLICITLY TELLS YOU hes not into dudes. Jal does not. Jaal never talk about dudes like I for two years never talked about dudes either because none tingled my nethers. Thought I was maybe only into girls, then after two years I found out that, eh.. some dudes are also tingling me nethers.I think its the same for jaal and I grew up with humans- the angara never even met humans until maybe 1,15 years..So jaal coming out as bi makes so much more sense than turning liam who says hes not into dudes (or maybe not into scot? whatever, its a explicit rejection) into someone who now suddenly likes scott? The reason why I'm having trouble accepting this argument is because Jaal is a fictional character whose development is decided upon by writers. That kind of realization works for a real person but not for a fictional character. For Jaal to have come to that realization, it would have happened through development. That's not what was done, though. We know Jaal was not romantically interested in Ryder before they changed his character because we've played through the game. Jaal was not programmed to be interested in Scott, Jaal was not written to be interested in Scott and Jaal was not implemented to be interested in Scott. This is the team changing how that worked by re-programming Jaal, rewriting Jaal and implementing Jaal as also being interested in Scott. Basically, it's re-writing events so to speak: going back and changing how something was instead of building on top of it. Jaal did not develop in-game from a guy who only thought he liked women and then discovered he liked men as well. Jaal was changed by from only liking women to liking both men and women by programmers. *There was no discovery involved. There was no realization that occurred. That's why I don't feel that argument really works when it comes to fictional characters and this specific situation. It'd have been different if Jaal's bisexuality came about in DLC since then it could have been the result of personal development in the game instead of just changing something outside of the game. Basically, building on top of something. Maybe that's poorly explained. Note: *as what is so far known.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jun 7, 2017 20:28:38 GMT
I think I read something about the originals being lost or damaged somehow so they can't do that. I mean you could always recreate the space only scenes, but the ones where you have to composit the actors? Tougher to pull off. And then there's the cost... The cost would be worth it. But then, I want Stargate SG-1 to be tuned up too, man, I'd love to watch that Blu-ray quality with updated visuals I'd buy it too. But we'd need to convice a couple hundred thousand more people to do the same before they'd be willing to listen
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Post by abaris on Jun 7, 2017 20:36:06 GMT
I haven't seen the team portray this as something that they wanted to implement earlier but were unable to for whatever reason and instead they seem to portray it as a change that they feel can be justified enough to avoid inconsistency. Basically: it's not something that they always intended to do and could only do now. It's something that they decided to do that they didn't previously plan on doing. Well, there's a save bet, they didn't come up with it within the last few weeks. That's virtually impossible to implement in that kind of game within that short period of time. So maybe they started working on it, shortly after release or they already had laid out the groundwork. The results would be more than cringeworthy and possibly a bugfest, if they really decided on turning Jaal bi, four weeks ago.
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Post by sil on Jun 7, 2017 20:36:11 GMT
The cost would be worth it. But then, I want Stargate SG-1 to be tuned up too, man, I'd love to watch that Blu-ray quality with updated visuals I'd buy it too. But we'd need to convice a couple hundred thousand more people to do the same before they'd be willing to listen Or win one of the insane american lotteries, didn't someone win a billion once? That'd more than fund it
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Post by Cyonan on Jun 7, 2017 21:02:23 GMT
Months ago before any of this was announced I made the point in the Character Romance thread that ideally they would create a new M/M romance, bolster up the quality of the content for Gil and Reyes, or both.
The problem is that we live in a world were time and money are limited resources and those are both rather expensive options for what is honestly a change that is probably not going to make them a great deal of money.
That said BioWare still did make themselves the "inclusive RPG developer" so their LGBT fanbase is generally large enough to actually want to do something about this even if it's not creating an amount of content that would constitute a small DLC more than a patch.
That's where making Jaal bi comes in, especially with the rumour that it was at least at one point being considered to make him bi during the actual development and the possibility that they already had some voice lines recorded. Even if they didn't, setting up the ScottxJaal romance is quite a bit less work than the other alternatives people want.
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Post by duskwanderer on Jun 7, 2017 21:30:40 GMT
I can understand why they did it: The gay audience is loud, annoying, and seems to think they are the only thing that matters. Now, instead of fixing bad animations like that weird way Ryder runs if you change direction in the middle of a run, they're retconning characters to appease a crowd that, by definition is never pleased.
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Post by griffith82 on Jun 7, 2017 21:36:33 GMT
Suvi's writer always intended her to be a lesbian though Early builds pretty much debunk that. Where? I don't recall that.
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Post by dark8sage on Jun 7, 2017 21:38:04 GMT
I can understand why they did it: The gay audience is loud, annoying, and seems to think they are the only thing that matters. Now, instead of fixing bad animations like that weird way Ryder runs if you change direction in the middle of a run, they're retconning characters to appease a crowd that, by definition is never pleased. Neither are you by what it looks like, given most of their patches have continuously addressed animations/glitches; yet somehow you found yourself compelled to come into a thread by an annoying gay audience to be an even bigger annoyance yourself in stating that your straight concerns are all that matter instead. It's almost like you're projecting your shitty personality traits onto an entire group of people.
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Post by bloodofthefirst on Jun 7, 2017 21:49:23 GMT
I can understand why they did it: The gay audience is loud, annoying, and seems to think they are the only thing that matters. Now, instead of fixing bad animations like that weird way Ryder runs if you change direction in the middle of a run, they're retconning characters to appease a crowd that, by definition is never pleased. Let's talk about people who never please. Have the most options, the most quality romances, Cora's hair is too manly, Peebee is too ugly, why isn't Suvi a lesbian. Talking about how Bioware only catering to gay when the ones with the most contents are straight. lol I heard a lot of ridiculous things from you, but the irony of this post is delicious though.
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Post by abaris on Jun 7, 2017 21:49:30 GMT
Suvi's writer always intended her to be a lesbian though Did they also intend for her to be boring? In my opinion that's the bigger issue than the sexual orientation of the characters. There's a general rule for writing fictional characters. Make them larger than life. So, if I am to compare the gay characters of DAI to MEA, there's Gil, yawnworthy cardboard and Dorian. Gorgeously mannered and self inflated and with a gripping backstory he reveals when he comes to trust you. Then there's Suvi, largely glued to the copilots seat, not much to say besides her search for a higher meaning or shrill and overconfident Sera. Also with a backstory that's well worth exploring. The bi character is Jaal, might be unfair, but I find him less than appealing too and the Bull. In my book that's the real problem with the characters. They're ordinary people in MEA and while you have the time and opportunity to find interesting aspects in ordinary people in real life, you haven't got the luxury in fiction. What you see is what you get and there's little to get you hooked.
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Post by mikeymoonshine on Jun 7, 2017 21:51:23 GMT
I can understand why they did it: The gay audience is loud, annoying, and seems to think they are the only thing that matters. Now, instead of fixing bad animations like that weird way Ryder runs if you change direction in the middle of a run, they're retconning characters to appease a crowd that, by definition is never pleased. They were never going to be able to fix all the problems with the animations and no Bioware game has good animations anyway. They fixed or at least improved the worst of it, that is a lot more than I ever expected them to do. I mean you really seem to just be projecting, like you aren't truly going to ever be happy with this game are you? I don't even blame you, it's a very disappointing game for many reasons but Bioware deserves some credit for making the fixes they said they would at least. But what do I know, I'm a gay person so obviously I just think I am the only thing that matters and I am never happy with everything.
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Post by duskwanderer on Jun 7, 2017 22:17:43 GMT
I can understand why they did it: The gay audience is loud, annoying, and seems to think they are the only thing that matters. Now, instead of fixing bad animations like that weird way Ryder runs if you change direction in the middle of a run, they're retconning characters to appease a crowd that, by definition is never pleased. Neither are you by what it looks like, given most of their patches have continuously addressed animations/glitches; yet somehow you found yourself compelled to come into a thread by an annoying gay audience to be an even bigger annoyance yourself in stating that your straight concerns are all that matter instead. It's almost like you're projecting your shitty personality traits onto an entire group of people. My "straight" concerns? Are bad animations not seen by gay people? This is exactly what I mean when I say the gay community will never be pleased.
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Post by duskwanderer on Jun 7, 2017 22:22:39 GMT
I can understand why they did it: The gay audience is loud, annoying, and seems to think they are the only thing that matters. Now, instead of fixing bad animations like that weird way Ryder runs if you change direction in the middle of a run, they're retconning characters to appease a crowd that, by definition is never pleased. Let's talk about people who never please. Have the most options, the most quality romances, Cora's hair is too manly, Peebee is too ugly, why isn't Suvi a lesbian. Talking about how Bioware only catering to gay when the ones with the most contents are straight. lol I heard a lot of ridiculous things from you, but the irony of this post is delicious though. Suvi is a lesbian. I thought you know that. And this is what I mean by gay people not being pleased. You immediately assume it's all about straight people. I think you're projecting some serious, deep-seeded hatred.
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Post by duskwanderer on Jun 7, 2017 22:25:23 GMT
I can understand why they did it: The gay audience is loud, annoying, and seems to think they are the only thing that matters. Now, instead of fixing bad animations like that weird way Ryder runs if you change direction in the middle of a run, they're retconning characters to appease a crowd that, by definition is never pleased. They were never going to be able to fix all the problems with the animations and no Bioware game has good animations anyway. They fixed or at least improved the worst of it, that is a lot more than I ever expected them to do. I mean you really seem to just be projecting, like you aren't truly going to ever be happy with this game are you? I don't even blame you, it's a very disappointing game for many reasons but Bioware deserves some credit for making the fixes they said they would at least. But what do I know, I'm a gay person so obviously I just think I am the only thing that matters and I am never happy with everything. Well, at least you didn't launch into a diatribe about hatred of straight people. I'm projecting nothing. I think the game is all right, but my dislike of Andromeda has little to do with the whining of gay people. It just makes me hate the fanbase. I only hate BioWARE for catering to a demographic that does nothing but whine to disguise their thinly veiled hatred.
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Post by Suaimhneas on Jun 7, 2017 22:27:08 GMT
Jaal was written as straight, period. All he talked about was his previous girlfriend. I used to date girls and I'm gay AF
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Post by abaris on Jun 7, 2017 22:30:25 GMT
I only hate BioWARE for catering to a demographic that does nothing but whine to disguise their thinly veiled hatred. Yeah sure. There was never any whining and bitching over SJW agendas and such. Talk about whining. Nothing to see here, kindly move on.
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Post by mikeymoonshine on Jun 7, 2017 22:39:21 GMT
They were never going to be able to fix all the problems with the animations and no Bioware game has good animations anyway. They fixed or at least improved the worst of it, that is a lot more than I ever expected them to do. I mean you really seem to just be projecting, like you aren't truly going to ever be happy with this game are you? I don't even blame you, it's a very disappointing game for many reasons but Bioware deserves some credit for making the fixes they said they would at least. But what do I know, I'm a gay person so obviously I just think I am the only thing that matters and I am never happy with everything. Well, at least you didn't launch into a diatribe about hatred of straight people. I'm projecting nothing. I think the game is all right, but my dislike of Andromeda has little to do with the whining of gay people. It just makes me hate the fanbase. I only hate BioWARE for catering to a demographic that does nothing but whine to disguise their thinly veiled hatred. yup totally not projecting, no projection here whatsoever.
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Post by bloodofthefirst on Jun 7, 2017 22:47:55 GMT
Let's talk about people who never please. Have the most options, the most quality romances, Cora's hair is too manly, Peebee is too ugly, why isn't Suvi a lesbian. Talking about how Bioware only catering to gay when the ones with the most contents are straight. lol I heard a lot of ridiculous things from you, but the irony of this post is delicious though. Suvi is a lesbian. I thought you know that. And this is what I mean by gay people not being pleased. You immediately assume it's all about straight people. I think you're projecting some serious, deep-seeded hatred. lol, not being pleased? I'm pretty much content with Jaal being bi. You're the one who talk about gays not being content while you're the one who projecting your discontent on others. I'm just pointing out the irony which you somehow think have anything to do with being discontent. I don't even get the logic in that. Most of the people are happy with Jaal, so I don't know where you find gay not ever being content. Show me proofs instead of talking shit without any backing.
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