cobalt72
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by cobalt72 on Jun 7, 2017 22:53:48 GMT
Eh, just because someone only talks girls doesn't mean he isn't bi at least in Bioware games. Reyes only talks about his girlfriend. Iron Bull only talked about serving girls
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2017 22:58:05 GMT
From what I gathered after looking back, and that article about the development time, I'm going to say since bi code was in the game, Jaal was bi, changed to straight due to lack of time and being unsure how to handle it, and then made bi now that they had time and the ability to actually look into making it work right.
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rpgmaster
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Post by rpgmaster on Jun 7, 2017 23:05:46 GMT
Gay fanboys are just as whinging and entitled as any other fanboy. The difference is that there isn't enough of them to make pandering to them financially justifiable. Only 2% of players did the gay romances in ME3. When you consider the more pressing issues and the limited time and resources of the studio, the amount of time (and publicity) spent on this aspect of the game is ludicrous.
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cypherj
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Post by cypherj on Jun 7, 2017 23:13:27 GMT
Bioware made this change due to fan pressure, and by setting this precedent they've just encouraged people to press them to change romance options in future games.
They can explain it all they want, but they wrote Jaal as a straight character and only changed it after fans pressed them. Anyone that thinks this change would have taken place had fans not pressed them about it is kidding themselves.
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Post by duskwanderer on Jun 7, 2017 23:17:52 GMT
Well, at least you didn't launch into a diatribe about hatred of straight people. I'm projecting nothing. I think the game is all right, but my dislike of Andromeda has little to do with the whining of gay people. It just makes me hate the fanbase. I only hate BioWARE for catering to a demographic that does nothing but whine to disguise their thinly veiled hatred. yup totally not projecting, no projection here whatsoever. I don't think you know what projection is...
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Post by duskwanderer on Jun 7, 2017 23:20:50 GMT
Suvi is a lesbian. I thought you know that. And this is what I mean by gay people not being pleased. You immediately assume it's all about straight people. I think you're projecting some serious, deep-seeded hatred. lol, not being pleased? I'm pretty much content with Jaal being bi. You're the one who talk about gays not being content while you're the one who projecting your discontent on others. I'm just pointing out the irony which you somehow think have anything to do with being discontent. I don't even get the logic in that. Most of the people are happy with Jaal, so I don't know where you find gay not ever being content. Show me proofs instead of talking shit without any backing. Because they are not. That was the whole reason this stupid thing happened in the first place. They continue to whine about being "shafted", about a meaningless achievement, and other nonsense. I was perfectly content to let BioWARE fix the buggy animations (and you must admit they needed, and still need, to be fixed). Instead, they're wasting valuable time catering to a bunch of triggered little babies sad they can't get an achievement.
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Post by abaris on Jun 7, 2017 23:22:42 GMT
Bioware made this change due to fan pressure, and by setting this precedent they've just encouraged people to press them to change romance options in future games. They can explain it all they want, but they wrote Jaal as a straight character and only changed it after fans pressed them. Anyone that thinks this change would have taken place had fans not pressed them about it is kidding themselves. So, correct me if I'm wrong, you believe, they turned Jaal within 4 weeks. I can only assume you have no experience with software development.
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Post by decafhigh on Jun 7, 2017 23:28:24 GMT
Bioware made this change due to fan pressure, and by setting this precedent they've just encouraged people to press them to change romance options in future games. They can explain it all they want, but they wrote Jaal as a straight character and only changed it after fans pressed them. Anyone that thinks this change would have taken place had fans not pressed them about it is kidding themselves. So, correct me if I'm wrong, you believe, they turned Jaal within 4 weeks. I can only assume you have no experience with software development. Guess we'll find out tomorrow. If the Scott/Jaal romance is a quickly thrown together crap show it'll be fairly obvious.
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cypherj
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Post by cypherj on Jun 7, 2017 23:28:26 GMT
Bioware made this change due to fan pressure, and by setting this precedent they've just encouraged people to press them to change romance options in future games. They can explain it all they want, but they wrote Jaal as a straight character and only changed it after fans pressed them. Anyone that thinks this change would have taken place had fans not pressed them about it is kidding themselves. So, correct me if I'm wrong, you believe, they turned Jaal within 4 weeks. I can only assume you have no experience with software development. Pretty much the same timeline the extended cut was announced and released after the outrage over the endings. Unless you're going to say that was in the works ahead of time, which of course it wasn't.
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Post by abaris on Jun 7, 2017 23:33:10 GMT
Pretty much the same timeline the extended cut was announced and released after the outrage over the endings. Unless you're going to say that was in the works ahead of time, which of course it wasn't. Three months as opposed to 4 weeks. Also, implementing something like that, with all the different dialogue lines, in a game of that length is an entirely different puppy as compared to the extended cut.
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Post by cypherj on Jun 7, 2017 23:38:53 GMT
Pretty much the same timeline the extended cut was announced and released after the outrage over the endings. Unless you're going to say that was in the works ahead of time, which of course it wasn't. Three months as opposed to 4 weeks. Also, implementing something like that, with all the different dialogue lines, in a game of that length is an entirely different puppy as compared to the extended cut. Four weeks had passed April 21st, it's June.
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Post by bloodofthefirst on Jun 7, 2017 23:55:16 GMT
lol, not being pleased? I'm pretty much content with Jaal being bi. You're the one who talk about gays not being content while you're the one who projecting your discontent on others. I'm just pointing out the irony which you somehow think have anything to do with being discontent. I don't even get the logic in that. Most of the people are happy with Jaal, so I don't know where you find gay not ever being content. Show me proofs instead of talking shit without any backing. Because they are not. That was the whole reason this stupid thing happened in the first place. They continue to whine about being "shafted", about a meaningless achievement, and other nonsense. I was perfectly content to let BioWARE fix the buggy animations (and you must admit they needed, and still need, to be fixed). Instead, they're wasting valuable time catering to a bunch of triggered little babies sad they can't get an achievement. If I have a dime for everytime someone brings up other issues over Jaal romance. They already released 7 patches to fix other issues. They also have already released a time table that they said they would include a romance for gay within 2 months. They also include bug fix alongside with the Jaal patch. Where were you during that time? You just suddenly complain, despite it being announced 2 months prior. You're salty as hell. lol You have more issues with the fact that they're releasing gay contents than bug fixes or anything because they release bug fix with every patch so far.
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Post by duskwanderer on Jun 8, 2017 0:28:13 GMT
Because they are not. That was the whole reason this stupid thing happened in the first place. They continue to whine about being "shafted", about a meaningless achievement, and other nonsense. I was perfectly content to let BioWARE fix the buggy animations (and you must admit they needed, and still need, to be fixed). Instead, they're wasting valuable time catering to a bunch of triggered little babies sad they can't get an achievement. If I have a dime for everytime someone brings up other issues over Jaal romance. They already released 7 patches to fix other issues. They also have already released a time table that they said they would include a romance for gay within 2 months. They also include bug fix alongside with the Jaal patch. Where were you during that time? You just suddenly complain, despite it being announced 2 months prior. You're salty as hell. lol You have more issues with the fact that they're releasing gay contents than bug fixes or anything because they release bug fix with every patch so far. I complained about it then. There's only so much time in a day and they are not fixing bugs when they are working on stupid content to appease whiny people upset for a retcon to justify a romance. Sounds to me like you're okay with bugged games as long as they give you gay content.
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Post by bloodofthefirst on Jun 8, 2017 0:39:47 GMT
If I have a dime for everytime someone brings up other issues over Jaal romance. They already released 7 patches to fix other issues. They also have already released a time table that they said they would include a romance for gay within 2 months. They also include bug fix alongside with the Jaal patch. Where were you during that time? You just suddenly complain, despite it being announced 2 months prior. You're salty as hell. lol You have more issues with the fact that they're releasing gay contents than bug fixes or anything because they release bug fix with every patch so far. I complained about it then. There's only so much time in a day and they are not fixing bugs when they are working on stupid content to appease whiny people upset for a retcon to justify a romance. Sounds to me like you're okay with bugged games as long as they give you gay content. I played the entire game already. I seriously didn't experience any significant bugs, so I guess you're right. I'm ok with it with the new content since I didn't get whatever bugs you're talking about. If you did encounter those bugs, too bad, so sad, not my problem. I'll restart another playthrough with the new content. It's gonna be at least another 50 hours for me. I'll just enjoying the game as I drink your cup of salty tears. Sound like I'm pretty content.
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Post by marshalmoriarty on Jun 8, 2017 1:32:02 GMT
The biggest issue for me is quality of writing. Bioware have a very poor record on romances in general. They clearly don't have writers who are comfortable and feel able to deliver them, be they for straight, gay or whatever orientation you want that has most of us reaching for a dictionary.
But this is nothing new. When you consider the untold legions of awful, shallow, zero chemistry screen romances in movies, tv shows etc. And that's before we even get to the subject of romance in sci fi and fantasy etc. Writers for genre shows, games, movies etc are usually there because they want to tell big, heroic stories, adventures, explore concepts etc. They aren't really interested in romance, but common wisdom dictates you must have them.
And it rarely goes well. Look at Star Trek and its grim roll call of outstandingly terrible One Episode Romance stories, terrorising Trek fans far and wide with their utterly awfulness. Beyond the rare times that 2 actors have real chemistry, screen romances are usually a receipe for forced, unwatchable drivel. And games are at an even bigger disadvantage usually, where the standard of writing and directing is lower, plus the amount of genuine interaction the voice actors had in co ordinating their performances is often very small.
So asking writers to move even further out of their comfort zones and write sensitive, well observed, interesting amd engaging same sex romances is a tall order. Especially as the romances are subjected to such forensic examination by fans. Its no wonder Bioware writers are often quoted as wishing they could do away with all romances.
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Cyan_Griffonclaw
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Cyan_Griffonclaw on Jun 8, 2017 1:39:37 GMT
You really think they did that by popular internet demand? The internet that isn't a mirror of the player base at large? Do you really think, that something like that is developed, voiced and implemented in a game within 4 to 5 weeks if it hadn't been already there? They left it out from the original release. For whatever reasons. Maybe it was bugged or they just didn't have the time to put on the finishing touches. But it had been there from the start. They only activated what was already in the game.Except what I've read from other posters including one in this thread, it involve new animation, new voice acting and hired consultants. That doesn't seem like just putting the finishing touches on something or activating someone that was already there. That sounds like creating content. Why would you hire consultants if you're already all but done and just need to activate something? Because Flynn is talking corporate bullcrap. Who were these consultants? Did they ask all the gays to come to room B and discuss how players can get the achievement and make Jaal bisexual? I would love to have seen that. Why don't they ask all the straights about getting getting the gay-only female interests as bisexual? It's stupid. It's degrading. It's a sham. Again, where the hell was PR on this? Derp. Derp. Derp. Derp.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Jun 8, 2017 1:43:15 GMT
They can't do a lot with production right now I think. Cheap, lazy patchwork it is and a few new lines.
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Xanphal
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Post by Xanphal on Jun 8, 2017 1:59:32 GMT
The biggest issue for me is quality of writing. Bioware have a very poor record on romances in general. They clearly don't have writers who are comfortable and feel able to deliver them, be they for straight, gay or whatever orientation you want that has most of us reaching for a dictionary. But this is nothing new. When you consider the untold legions of awful, shallow, zero chemistry screen romances in movies, tv shows etc. And that's before we even get to the subject of romance in sci fi and fantasy etc. Writers for genre shows, games, movies etc are usually there because they want to tell big, heroic stories, adventures, explore concepts etc. They aren't really interested in romance, but common wisdom dictates you must have them. And it rarely goes well. Look at Star Trek and its grim roll call of outstandingly terrible One Episode Romance stories, terrorising Trek fans far and wide with their utterly awfulness. Beyond the rare times that 2 actors have real chemistry, screen romances are usually a receipe for forced, unwatchable drivel. And games are at an even bigger disadvantage usually, where the standard of writing and directing is lower, plus the amount of genuine interaction the voice actors had in co ordinating their performances is often very small. So asking writers to move even further out of their comfort zones and write sensitive, well observed, interesting amd engaging same sex romances is a tall order. Especially as the romances are subjected to such forensic examination by fans. Its no wonder Bioware writers are often quoted as wishing they could do away with all romances. All valid points. Writing to please everyone is difficult and there's never going to be a situation where everyone is happy 100% of the time. But Bioware has proven that they ARE capable of writing some well-thought-out relationships. My main point for the gay side of the spectrum is Dorian from DA:I. I think that at the least everyone was expecting anything coming out of Bioware at this point would be up to that particular calibre, and the fact that it wasn't is what hurts. We KNOW they're capable, but somehow they completely missed the mark. The bones of the Gil story is there, and with a lot more time and thought put into it it could have been something people held up like the Dorian romance as a great example; unfortunately it was rushed, and it feels a lot like huge parts of the story was skipped. Likewise, Reyes feels like they panicked at the last second upon realising they had one, half-hearted, gay romance and changed a few tags rather than going the long way around. Unfortunately, the whole game has this issue. Don't get me wrong, MEA is a GOOD game, but it isn't a great game, and there are points where you can absolutely feel how much the goal was simply to make it work, rather than have it blow your mind. Personally, I think that even a mediocre game can be saved by creating memorable characters and relationships you want to revisit, and I will always be disappointed at how much MEA missed that mark. And, honestly, I think that is what the core of most of the complaints are; people had such high expectations for character development that the crushing realization that Bioware, of all gaming companies, had released a generic game just like anyone else would, was a huge blow. When I think back on the original ME trilogy I don't think back on the quests, or the reapers, or the combat; I think back to that time I had to chose between two members of my team, or the time I had to decide if I really needed Wrex and his attitude. I think back on the companions I couldn't save because of decisions I'd made in previous games, I think back on the play-through's where I completely messed up and cause deaths that could have been avoided. I think on the characters I loved, and stories that defined them. I won't think back on the characters in Andromeda-there are no losses to mourn, no decisions I wish I hadn't made, and nothing at all to differentiate this bunch of NPC's from the NPC's of any other game. Mass Effect is not meant to be any other game, and the disappointment that Andromeda WAS just another game will be around for a long time.
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Post by setokaiba on Jun 8, 2017 2:04:48 GMT
lol, not being pleased? I'm pretty much content with Jaal being bi. You're the one who talk about gays not being content while you're the one who projecting your discontent on others. I'm just pointing out the irony which you somehow think have anything to do with being discontent. I don't even get the logic in that. Most of the people are happy with Jaal, so I don't know where you find gay not ever being content. Show me proofs instead of talking shit without any backing. Because they are not. That was the whole reason this stupid thing happened in the first place. They continue to whine about being "shafted", about a meaningless achievement, and other nonsense. I was perfectly content to let BioWARE fix the buggy animations (and you must admit they needed, and still need, to be fixed). Instead, they're wasting valuable time catering to a bunch of triggered little babies sad they can't get an achievement. It's not that they can't get it but they refuse to do another romance option or just play as Sara to romance Jaal. I agree with you this game has bigger issues then who Jaal will give oral sex to and who he won't. The last I checked this game isn't getting bad to decent reviews because people really wanted to see Scott and Jaal bang. They still need to fix a number of issues and adding a new romance option shouldn't have been that list.
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Post by duskwanderer on Jun 8, 2017 2:08:12 GMT
I complained about it then. There's only so much time in a day and they are not fixing bugs when they are working on stupid content to appease whiny people upset for a retcon to justify a romance. Sounds to me like you're okay with bugged games as long as they give you gay content. I played the entire game already. I seriously didn't experience any significant bugs, so I guess you're right. I'm ok with it with the new content since I didn't get whatever bugs you're talking about. If you did encounter those bugs, too bad, so sad, not my problem. I'll restart another playthrough with the new content. It's gonna be at least another 50 hours for me. I'll just enjoying the game as I drink your cup of salty tears. Sound like I'm pretty content. You sound like you're not telling the truth. But it's okay, you have your agenda. I just hope when reality bites you, it doesn't hurt.
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Post by setokaiba on Jun 8, 2017 2:08:46 GMT
So, correct me if I'm wrong, you believe, they turned Jaal within 4 weeks. I can only assume you have no experience with software development. Guess we'll find out tomorrow. If the Scott/Jaal romance is a quickly thrown together crap show it'll be fairly obvious. I really hope Bioware gave them a special sex scene like Cora's because people are going to pissed if it fades to black or just Sara romance scene.
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Post by marshalmoriarty on Jun 8, 2017 2:09:43 GMT
Xanphal
I would point out simply that the writer of Dorian's romance is gay himself and more importantly it was a romance and character he openly admitted he was engaged and interested to write for. I just don't think that these moments come along too often (especially as Gaider himself has openly lamented the need for romances in Bioware games as a bother to the writers, making them write out of obligation rather than any love of the subject etc).
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Post by setokaiba on Jun 8, 2017 2:15:15 GMT
Xanphal I would point out simply that the writer of Dorian's romance is gay himself and more importantly it was a romance and character he openly admitted he was engaged and interested to write for. I just don't think that these moments come along too often (especially as Gaider himself has openly lamented the need for romances in Bioware games as a bother to the writers, making them write out of obligation rather than any love of the subject etc). I watched Dorian's romance on youtube and it's very well done and imo the best written romance in the game. But Dorian is just a great character in general and I hope he is in the next Dragon Age.
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Post by bloodofthefirst on Jun 8, 2017 2:19:54 GMT
I played the entire game already. I seriously didn't experience any significant bugs, so I guess you're right. I'm ok with it with the new content since I didn't get whatever bugs you're talking about. If you did encounter those bugs, too bad, so sad, not my problem. I'll restart another playthrough with the new content. It's gonna be at least another 50 hours for me. I'll just enjoying the game as I drink your cup of salty tears. Sound like I'm pretty content. You sound like you're not telling the truth. But it's okay, you have your agenda. I just hope when reality bites you, it doesn't hurt. Yeah, I love every second of my agenda being fulfilled with the next patch. Too bad no one cares about your agenda so keep on being salty.
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Post by Xanphal on Jun 8, 2017 2:26:12 GMT
Xanphal I would point out simply that the writer of Dorian's romance is gay himself and more importantly it was a romance and character he openly admitted he was engaged and interested to write for. I just don't think that these moments come along too often (especially as Gaider himself has openly lamented the need for romances in Bioware games as a bother to the writers, making them write out of obligation rather than any love of the subject etc). A sad state, indeed. They're the ones that created this high expectation of quality story writing; if they feel like it's a chore more than a joy to put passion and life into an NPC then maybe they need new people. Characterization is what makes Bioware games unique in a sea of carbon copy games; I hate to think that the uniqueness that won people's love and loyalty is considered to be a burden.
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