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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2017 23:43:24 GMT
I don't even know if it is a good idea to start this thread. It probably isn't in all honesty but of all the criticisms leveled at this game (some valid, some not so much) this has to be the single dumbest simply because it isn't in the actual game itself or at least not anything really noticable. Yet the derp brigade insists that there is some sort of "sjw conspiracy" going on with this game yet they never offer proof to back their crap up. Usually it is something like "herr derr I don't like how default Sara looks" or "the cc was deliberately designed to stop me from making a hot chick" or some other dumb crap like that. I am generally not a fan of sjws but I suspect some of these idiots have a much broader definition of "sjw" than I do. Fortuately it isn't as bad as here as even those that don't like the game usually don't fall back on the "it's sjw" routine (though they do pop up once in a while). Yet we have all run across these idiots in different parts of the internet. Youtube for example is infested with them. What I want to know where is the damn actual proof that this game in and of itself is "sjw propoganda". Welcome to the world of the sane. I think these days that group defines SJW as anything with a whiff of any kind political correctness (because we should all be loser racist, misogynistic savages and neanderthals of yesteryear). The way I see it, the whole SJW battlecry for me is the biggest, brightest most useful red flag ever. The minute someone gripes about SJW, PC or feminist anything, I KNOW I am dealing with a dick of the highest order who likes to camouflage their hate as something else while still spewing it everywhere. And these people have gotten very clever in how they do it. But in the end, barring a few very confused, uninformed or naive people, it's just about hating and trying to look just and self righteous in their hate. Frankly, the more time passes, the more grateful I am that this whole SJW/PC hating nonsense exists because now I know exactly what kind of person I am dealing with so that I can choose to deal with them less (as in never again).
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I don't like MP!
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Post by warrior on Jun 25, 2017 0:03:51 GMT
It all comes down to the quality of writing. If your character exists solely as a walking stereotype/wikipedia and only represents a minority without having any other personality traits then it's considered to be a character created simply for SJW pandering. Example: Steve from ME3. His whole character is based on being gay. He lost his husband, is grieving and later he is ready to hook up with Shepard. He doesn't show any other traits aside from his job as an engineer and a pilot. Every interaction Shepard has with Steve is basically screaming 'romance me'. Note: I'm only talking about the main game, I haven't played the DLC. Another example is that trans character in Andromeda that just dumps a huge exposition on being a trans...no other traits. And notorious downgrade on Sara's original attractive face model. TL;DR: Bioware probably don't do the SJW propaganda/pandering deliberately but their poor writing of certain characters representing minority makes it look like that. *pssssssst* These "SJWs" don't much like walking stereotypes and blatant tokenization, either. I think they want those characters to be as well-written as anyone else. Which is why the Hainly interaction was patched. It was "pandering" in the most irritating sense of the word.
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Post by setokaiba on Jun 25, 2017 0:23:59 GMT
I don't even know if it is a good idea to start this thread. It probably isn't in all honesty but of all the criticisms leveled at this game (some valid, some not so much) this has to be the single dumbest simply because it isn't in the actual game itself or at least not anything really noticable. Yet the derp brigade insists that there is some sort of "sjw conspiracy" going on with this game yet they never offer proof to back their crap up. Usually it is something like "herr derr I don't like how default Sara looks" or "the cc was deliberately designed to stop me from making a hot chick" or some other dumb crap like that. I am generally not a fan of sjws but I suspect some of these idiots have a much broader definition of "sjw" than I do. Fortuately it isn't as bad as here as even those that don't like the game usually don't fall back on the "it's sjw" routine (though they do pop up once in a while). Yet we have all run across these idiots in different parts of the internet. Youtube for example is infested with them. What I want to know where is the damn actual proof that this game in and of itself is "sjw propoganda". Welcome to the world of the sane. I think these days that group defines SJW as anything with a whiff of any kind political correctness (because we should all be loser racist, misogynistic savages and neanderthals of yesteryear). The way I see it, the whole SJW battlecry for me is the biggest, brightest most useful red flag ever. The minute someone gripes about SJW, PC or feminist anything, I KNOW I am dealing with a dick of the highest order who likes to camouflage their hate as something else while still spewing it everywhere. And these people have gotten very clever in how they do it. But in the end, barring a few very confused, uninformed or naive people, it's just about hating and trying to look just and self righteous in their hate. Frankly, the more time passes, the more grateful I am that this whole SJW/PC hating nonsense exists because now I know exactly what kind of person I am dealing with so that I can choose to deal with them less (as in never again). I wouldn't go that far. SJWs are a thing and are a problem they just not as widespread as people believe. Remember the big debate aboutJaal after the patch? People was giving good reasons as to why they thought making Jaal bi was a mistake or a misuse of resources but instead of giving reasons as to why they disagree they just decided to label us bigots. Being an SJW don't make you none racist, sexist, ect it makes you a close minded fool who label those you disagree with the worse kind of person because you have no argument and all they are doing is creating more haterd and resentment. I say this as a black man, SJWs are no better than a actual bigot.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2017 0:40:30 GMT
There are more than enough evidence to show how Bioware is mediatized and pushing certain agendas in their games. If you happen to consider these agendas "social justice", then good for you. It used to be different opinions were viewed as good thing for democracy, but these days the new left just goes and bully into silence anyone who dares question them. Actually, it used to be that the kind of issues or 'agendas' that BW brings up were considered some of the most forward thinking and progressive types of writing out there whether it be in TV, movies, or afternoon kid specials. Learning about social issues, any social issues, through popular media was well received for a very, very, very long time. Granted the writing has to be well done for that to really be a consideration and the sloppy writing we had with some of this stuff from BW really doesn't help. But it's only in the last decade (probably right around the time that Obama was elected) that hate came in to such a predominant rise to power after being hushed for a while. This cycle of backlash is nothing new. It's part of the natural ebb and flow or hate vs anti-hate cycles. The only different is that labels change, certain topics might change but in the end, it's all been done before and will be done again. And this cycle of hate will die out after enough people come to their sense and call it for what it is. Hate. Plain and simple. Tolerance for progressive thinking has gone to shite. But it won't last. It never does. The only thing political about any of this is that people use it as yet one more reason to blame others for what they dislike in the world. Nothing new their either.
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Post by anacronian on Jun 25, 2017 0:45:21 GMT
Honestly, the writing in this game is so bad it can only be labeled Tumblr fanfic propaganda.
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Post by cheeseandonion on Jun 25, 2017 0:48:42 GMT
I'd say that there are sjw elements but not propaganda. Nothing I can't live with.
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Post by Trilobite Derby on Jun 25, 2017 0:50:42 GMT
It all comes down to the quality of writing. If your character exists solely as a walking stereotype/wikipedia and only represents a minority without having any other personality traits then it's considered to be a character created simply for SJW pandering. Example: Steve from ME3. His whole character is based on being gay. He lost his husband, is grieving and later he is ready to hook up with Shepard. He doesn't show any other traits aside from his job as an engineer and a pilot. Every interaction Shepard has with Steve is basically screaming 'romance me'. Note: I'm only talking about the main game, I haven't played the DLC. Another example is that trans character in Andromeda that just dumps a huge exposition on being a trans...no other traits. And notorious downgrade on Sara's original attractive face model. TL;DR: Bioware probably don't do the SJW propaganda/pandering deliberately but their poor writing of certain characters representing minority makes it look like that. Personally, I thought the more interesting aspect of Steve is that for FREAKING ONCE, we got a fighter jock pilot who isn't a shameless adrenaline junkie. Steve has a bit more depth then I think you're giving him credit for. See his friendship with Vega, his almost ridiculous reliability, and yes, his grief. His whole character isn't 'based on being gay'. Maybe 'based on dealing with loss', but Steve's personality wouldn't have changed if Robert was a Roberta and he was an option for femShep instead.... And say, Joker was maleShep's backup Kaidan. I mean, yes, he has a case of Carth syndrome, but that's not exactly rare. Or his whole character. All that being said, I think we can both agree that a character who seems to just be written to check a box isn't good. I strongly disagree that Cortez is one, and frankly think Bioware usually does the whole representation thing pretty well. Not great, and sure, there's room for improvement (and subtlety), but sheesh.
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Post by setokaiba on Jun 25, 2017 0:51:27 GMT
Honestly, the writing in this game is so bad it can only be labeled Tumblr fanfic propaganda. lmao It's not that bad. It has it's problem true but I wouldn't go as far to call it a Tumblr fanfic.
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I don't like MP!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by warrior on Jun 25, 2017 0:56:26 GMT
Honestly, the writing in this game is so bad it can only be labeled Tumblr fanfic propaganda. lmao It's not that bad. It has it's problem true but I wouldn't go as far to call it a Tumblr fanfic. Archive of Our Own fanfic?
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GIF Addict
Workin' so hard, to make it easy.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Workin' so hard, to make it easy.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Jun 25, 2017 1:00:55 GMT
I don't even know if it is a good idea to start this thread. It probably isn't in all honesty but of all the criticisms leveled at this game (some valid, some not so much) this has to be the single dumbest simply because it isn't in the actual game itself or at least not anything really noticable. Yet the derp brigade insists that there is some sort of "sjw conspiracy" going on with this game yet they never offer proof to back their crap up. Usually it is something like "herr derr I don't like how default Sara looks" or "the cc was deliberately designed to stop me from making a hot chick" or some other dumb crap like that. I am generally not a fan of sjws but I suspect some of these idiots have a much broader definition of "sjw" than I do. Fortuately it isn't as bad as here as even those that don't like the game usually don't fall back on the "it's sjw" routine (though they do pop up once in a while). Yet we have all run across these idiots in different parts of the internet. Youtube for example is infested with them. What I want to know where is the damn actual proof that this game in and of itself is "sjw propoganda". And these people
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2017 1:17:36 GMT
Welcome to the world of the sane. I think these days that group defines SJW as anything with a whiff of any kind political correctness (because we should all be loser racist, misogynistic savages and neanderthals of yesteryear). The way I see it, the whole SJW battlecry for me is the biggest, brightest most useful red flag ever. The minute someone gripes about SJW, PC or feminist anything, I KNOW I am dealing with a dick of the highest order who likes to camouflage their hate as something else while still spewing it everywhere. And these people have gotten very clever in how they do it. But in the end, barring a few very confused, uninformed or naive people, it's just about hating and trying to look just and self righteous in their hate. Frankly, the more time passes, the more grateful I am that this whole SJW/PC hating nonsense exists because now I know exactly what kind of person I am dealing with so that I can choose to deal with them less (as in never again). I wouldn't go that far. SJWs are a thing and are a problem they just not as widespread as people believe. Remember the big debate aboutJaal after the patch? People was giving good reasons as to why they thought making Jaal bi was a mistake or a misuse of resources but instead of giving reasons as to why they disagree they just decided to label us bigots. Being an SJW don't make you none racist, sexist, ect it makes you a close minded fool who label those you disagree with the worse kind of person because you have no argument and all they are doing is creating more haterd and resentment. I say this as a black man, SJWs are no better than a actual bigot. No, SJWs have their issues too. I never said they didn't. I said that it's pretty easy to recognize that a lot of the people crying out about SJWs are on some kind of a hate wagon. Not all. In some cases it's lack of understanding. Like for one, I would not say that gay males wanting a decent romance (which actually existed within the game before they changed it for whatever reason) makes them SJWs and labeling them as such is shitty. They are not SJWs but gamers who happen to be gay who want and deserve just as much as non gay gamers to have a romance that doesn't look like it was written in a 25 min session (which Gil is kind of that - I mean he's not even a very well developed character). If you are labeling them as SJWs then that's exactly what I am talking about. They deserve just as much as anyone else to have a decent romance. They are consumers just as much as any other player. I'm personally not a fan of them changing Jaal and do agree that it should have been handled better and spending resources on it when there are other game issues probably wasn't the best plan (because the plan should have been to not give that demographic one sub par romance and to keep jaal as bi if he was written that way). the fact that you label them as SJWs is the precise issue I am talking about. It should have been handled properly from the start. But failing that, BW should correct it because gay males pay as much for the game as everyone else and it's part of the reason they buy the games. I suppose I now would fall into the category of being an SJW as well, which frankly I don't care about. I do care that people are treated equally and fairly. If you had only one sub par romance and you played in part for romances, you'd want them to fix it too. But they get labeled SJWs for wanting what they want.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2017 1:22:14 GMT
I don't even know if it is a good idea to start this thread. It probably isn't in all honesty but of all the criticisms leveled at this game (some valid, some not so much) this has to be the single dumbest simply because it isn't in the actual game itself or at least not anything really noticable. Yet the derp brigade insists that there is some sort of "sjw conspiracy" going on with this game yet they never offer proof to back their crap up. Usually it is something like "herr derr I don't like how default Sara looks" or "the cc was deliberately designed to stop me from making a hot chick" or some other dumb crap like that. I am generally not a fan of sjws but I suspect some of these idiots have a much broader definition of "sjw" than I do. Fortuately it isn't as bad as here as even those that don't like the game usually don't fall back on the "it's sjw" routine (though they do pop up once in a while). Yet we have all run across these idiots in different parts of the internet. Youtube for example is infested with them. What I want to know where is the damn actual proof that this game in and of itself is "sjw propoganda". Because the women look like men, Addison walks like she shit herself and Asari now identify as whatever gender they like
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Post by KaiserShep on Jun 25, 2017 1:40:51 GMT
I don't even know if it is a good idea to start this thread. It probably isn't in all honesty but of all the criticisms leveled at this game (some valid, some not so much) this has to be the single dumbest simply because it isn't in the actual game itself or at least not anything really noticable. Yet the derp brigade insists that there is some sort of "sjw conspiracy" going on with this game yet they never offer proof to back their crap up. Usually it is something like "herr derr I don't like how default Sara looks" or "the cc was deliberately designed to stop me from making a hot chick" or some other dumb crap like that. I am generally not a fan of sjws but I suspect some of these idiots have a much broader definition of "sjw" than I do. Fortuately it isn't as bad as here as even those that don't like the game usually don't fall back on the "it's sjw" routine (though they do pop up once in a while). Yet we have all run across these idiots in different parts of the internet. Youtube for example is infested with them. What I want to know where is the damn actual proof that this game in and of itself is "sjw propoganda". Because the women look like men, Addison walks like she shit herself and Asari now identify as whatever gender they like So like us.
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Post by KaiserShep on Jun 25, 2017 1:41:57 GMT
Honestly, the writing in this game is so bad it can only be labeled Tumblr fanfic propaganda. Is Tumblr really known for fanfic?
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N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
XBL Gamertag: V4vendetta82
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Post by zaeedisking on Jun 25, 2017 1:44:16 GMT
Honestly, the writing in this game is so bad it can only be labeled Tumblr fanfic propaganda. Is Tumblr really known for fanfic?
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N4
The path up and down are one and the same.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
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The path up and down are one and the same.
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Post by kino on Jun 25, 2017 2:13:29 GMT
Welcome to the world of the sane. I think these days that group defines SJW as anything with a whiff of any kind political correctness (because we should all be loser racist, misogynistic savages and neanderthals of yesteryear). The way I see it, the whole SJW battlecry for me is the biggest, brightest most useful red flag ever. The minute someone gripes about SJW, PC or feminist anything, I KNOW I am dealing with a dick of the highest order who likes to camouflage their hate as something else while still spewing it everywhere. And these people have gotten very clever in how they do it. But in the end, barring a few very confused, uninformed or naive people, it's just about hating and trying to look just and self righteous in their hate. Frankly, the more time passes, the more grateful I am that this whole SJW/PC hating nonsense exists because now I know exactly what kind of person I am dealing with so that I can choose to deal with them less (as in never again). I wouldn't go that far. SJWs are a thing and are a problem they just not as widespread as people believe. Remember the big debate aboutJaal after the patch? People was giving good reasons as to why they thought making Jaal bi was a mistake or a misuse of resources but instead of giving reasons as to why they disagree they just decided to label us bigots. Being an SJW don't make you none racist, sexist, ect it makes you a close minded fool who label those you disagree with the worse kind of person because you have no argument and all they are doing is creating more haterd and resentment. I say this as a black man, SJWs are no better than a actual bigot. Cool, cool. Then let me explain why making Jaal romanceable by both characters was necessary; you couldn't get the achievement for romancing three characters if your male Ryder was gay, not unless you romanced a female. That was the biggest reason I saw in the romance forum. Maybe it was less about "wasting resources" and righting an oversight in the original game? Because that's what it was. When I tried a couple of times to point this out it was as if people who were against making Jaal romanceable either didn't want to hear it or couldn't understand it. Shit, I'm not even a gay man and I understood where those who were wanting it were coming from.
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I don't like MP!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by warrior on Jun 25, 2017 2:22:37 GMT
Some upset w/ BW's trends are no doubt the type that used to get off on telling sandwich and kitchen jokes about femshep during the trilogy days. Not all, but some.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2017 2:26:40 GMT
Sure are a lot of people failing to see things these days.
So be it. The cycle culture war continues.
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Post by kaind on Jun 25, 2017 2:29:57 GMT
It's not about some bright example that stands out, it's just the impression I got after completing the game. It's how the game feels, its atmosphere, and I can tell that the game was made by SJW's. It's how all the characters including Ryder talk, how they think, how they act, their mentality, in every scene from the beginning of the game till the end.
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Post by setokaiba on Jun 25, 2017 2:35:21 GMT
I wouldn't go that far. SJWs are a thing and are a problem they just not as widespread as people believe. Remember the big debate aboutJaal after the patch? People was giving good reasons as to why they thought making Jaal bi was a mistake or a misuse of resources but instead of giving reasons as to why they disagree they just decided to label us bigots. Being an SJW don't make you none racist, sexist, ect it makes you a close minded fool who label those you disagree with the worse kind of person because you have no argument and all they are doing is creating more haterd and resentment. I say this as a black man, SJWs are no better than a actual bigot. Cool, cool. Then let me explain why making Jaal romanceable by both characters was necessary; you couldn't get the achievement for romancing three characters if your male Ryder was gay, not unless you romanced a female. That was the biggest reason I saw in the romance forum. Maybe it was less about "wasting resources" and righting an oversight in the original game? Because that's what it was. When I tried a couple of times to point this out it was as if people who were against making Jaal romanceable either didn't want to hear it or couldn't understand it. Shit, I'm not even a gay man and I understood where those who were wanting it were coming from. I understand why they did it I just don't agree with it. If someone aren't willing to play a none gay male Ryder for a stupid trophy that is their problem, it's a stupid trophy and if you trying to get a trophy in a video game you sometimes have to go out of your way to get said trophy. Someone in that very thread used DAO as an example in that game if you wanted every trophy you had to play as a character who probably isn't what you want them to be. Another example is I hate playing evil characters but in order to get all the trophies in Infamous Second Son I had to play as a bad guy.
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Post by shechinah on Jun 25, 2017 2:40:10 GMT
Honestly, the writing in this game is so bad it can only be labeled Tumblr fanfic propaganda. Is Tumblr really known for fanfic? It's really more art.
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Post by KaiserShep on Jun 25, 2017 3:01:50 GMT
Well looks like we are going there...Cassandra is the best female Character in fiction. So of course she is the best dai companion. I like Cassandra but I'll take Morriagan or Leliana over her I like Morrigan, but her approval is pretty whacked since she generally disapproves of anything generous that isn't directed at her. Of course, you can easily bribe your way to max affection so whatever. I like Leliana, but she can be rather treacle-y. Izzy's clearly better than both.
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Lost in bosom, consumed by abs.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2
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Post by yeah rip on Jun 25, 2017 3:03:34 GMT
I wouldn't go as far as to say that MEA is "sjw propaganda", but Bioware did put in some things that didn't have any other purpose other than to pander to some specific parts of fandom. Like the Asari pronoun thing that came out of nowhere, Angara apparently seeing gender with fluidity or whatever, a trans character who felt the need to inform you of her being trans at the first opportunity (I know they've changed it a bit, but that's how it was shipped anyway). And the Jaal thing of course. I don't hate the game, but those devs are hopeless. I find it funny and sad how they wanted to show how ~progressive~ they are, but, paradoxically, failed to notice that the gay players had less romance options than others. I wouldn't go that far. SJWs are a thing and are a problem they just not as widespread as people believe. Remember the big debate aboutJaal after the patch? People was giving good reasons as to why they thought making Jaal bi was a mistake or a misuse of resources but instead of giving reasons as to why they disagree they just decided to label us bigots. Being an SJW don't make you none racist, sexist, ect it makes you a close minded fool who label those you disagree with the worse kind of person because you have no argument and all they are doing is creating more hatred and resentment. I say this as a black man, SJWs are no better than a actual bigot. Cool, cool. Then let me explain why making Jaal romanceable by both characters was necessary; you couldn't get the achievement for romancing three characters if your male Ryder was gay, not unless you romanced a female. That was the biggest reason I saw in the romance forum. Maybe it was less about "wasting resources" and righting an oversight in the original game? Because that's what it was. When I tried a couple of times to point this out it was as if people who were against making Jaal romanceable either didn't want to hear it or couldn't understand it. Shit, I'm not even a gay man and I understood where those who were wanting it were coming from. Not a good enough reason to change a character post-release, especially in a patch, imo. Why not remove the achievement or reduce the required romance number to two? Wouldn't have had to waste the resources that way, at least not as much. Or why not add an entirely new romance option or make another character romanceable, someone who wasn't straight at the release? And I don't remember the devs stating this as the reason they did it, IIRC the patch notes just said that they came to the conclusion that it "made sense" for him.
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KaiserShep
Party like it's 2023!
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Post by KaiserShep on Jun 25, 2017 3:04:09 GMT
Is Tumblr really known for fanfic? It's really more art. Yeah I've been at it on Tumblr for years now. I've seen some whacky fanfic on deviantart, but Archive of our own had some doozies.
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kino
N4
The path up and down are one and the same.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
Origin: kinom001
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The path up and down are one and the same.
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kino
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
kinom001
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Post by kino on Jun 25, 2017 3:12:51 GMT
Cool, cool. Then let me explain why making Jaal romanceable by both characters was necessary; you couldn't get the achievement for romancing three characters if your male Ryder was gay, not unless you romanced a female. That was the biggest reason I saw in the romance forum. Maybe it was less about "wasting resources" and righting an oversight in the original game? Because that's what it was. When I tried a couple of times to point this out it was as if people who were against making Jaal romanceable either didn't want to hear it or couldn't understand it. Shit, I'm not even a gay man and I understood where those who were wanting it were coming from. I understand why they did it I just don't agree with it. If someone aren't willing to play a none gay male Ryder for a stupid trophy that is their problem, it's a stupid trophy and if you trying to get a trophy in a video game you sometimes have to go out of your way to get said trophy. Someone in that very thread used DAO as an example in that game if you wanted every trophy you had to play as a character who probably isn't what you want them to be. Another example is I hate playing evil characters but in order to get all the trophies in Infamous Second Son I had to play as a bad guy. Nope. I disagree. If you create an achievement in a video game it should be attainable by everyone, whether you think it's "stupid" or not. Particularly a romance trophy. If it had been the other way around every straight dude from here to Timbuktu would've set up such a collective whinge to burn the heavens. Hell, I would've been one of them. So try that; put yourself in the gay community's shoes and tell me you wouldn't have bitched a bit. Truth is, it wouldn't have mattered who they made the other romanceable character for that achievement. There was going to be a subset that was going to bitch about it regardless, even if it didn't actually affect their game or not.
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