Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Jul 21, 2017 18:21:24 GMT
Hey, you're the one saying I need "every aspect of the last 10% of the game". That's literally what you asked for. You had a list of questions going into such detail that clearly expected every aspect to be explained and indicated that they were just the ones off the top of your head, and that you were only focused on the ending (which had been previously expressed as being everything happening after 90% of the game) If your intention wasn't to ask for extra detail then I'm not really sure what your original point was. If you're asking questions about how the specifics of shooting a tube enacted the results of the destroy ending then you can't then start saying that you didn't need detail. No I didn't. I asked for an ending that actually made sense, at least as far as the lore of the universe and the story told thus far went. As it is, ME3 could have ended with Shepard exclaiming "My God, it's full of stars!" and a cut to credits and it would have made as much sense. And once again, you put words in my mouth. You keep trying to turn this into a binary question. No , not every detail is needed. But some details are. Including why the "on" switch for the Crucible is a pipe that has to be shot. My point was, and still is, the endings are nonsensical garbage.
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linksocarina
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Post by linksocarina on Jul 21, 2017 18:29:31 GMT
I worked with Joe at the time of that video, right before he left Blistered Thumbs. He was not the most pleasant person to work with, although credit to him for working hard to get to the point he is now. Thing is, Joe has passion but doesn't think a lot of things though, its less thought out, more on feeling. Nothing wrong with that either...but id like more of the former vs the latter. Well recently, I had to disagreed with joe on many things, one of them being mass effect andromeda. Now his reviews belongs to him and he has the right to his opinion, but he made several points that had nothing to do with the quality of MEA and more of what he wanted the game to have, for exemple he consider the absence of space battle to be a negative and same for no choice of alien species for the SP of Andromeda. Now I would have loved both of those things to be there in MEA, but it was never part of what ME did, ME was always about a defined character and no space battles were playable. IF bioware wants to make a game with multiple species, I would love to see that but they wanted a defined character like ryder than they should do what they want. And for space battles, while I was dissapointed when I learned there was not going to be any, That modes takes up ressources to create and maybe the team was not interested into making it, and if they were not interested I don't think they should be forced to do it. Another thing I hated that he did was during his injustice 2 review, where he unfortunately said that injustice brought the final nail in the coffin of MEA because it had better facial animation... I was like "Ok joe, I am not saying MEA had acceptable facial animation at release they should definately have been more worked on before they sell it. The problem is comparing a fighting game who has much less work to do not only as a game, but can have full motion capture for their facial animation because they have at best 2 to maybe 3 hours cinematic to do with less than 30 characters, some of them completely masked and during the fight you don't see them upclose for most of the fight. Comparing it with MEA who had hundreds of characters, not all scripted cutscenes and dozens of hours of cinematics... its comparing magic apples to a mutant sci fi oranges". If he compare dragon age inquisition to mass effect andromeda, ok it would have already been a better comparison because they are both rpg with a lot of character and non scripted cutscenes and like I said the facial animation of MEA were bad for an rpg. But asking rpg to have the same facial animation than a very short fighting game, that would blow up the budget. I remember around my tenure at BT, Joe did a video where he gave Skyrim a perfect score, calling it one of the best RPG's he ever played because of the full-blown control he had over the world. That bothered me, mostly because I hold the belief that no game is ever worth a perfect score, but also because our written stuff at the time gave it more realistic take at a low 9. It undercut our written review basically. I remember going to Joe regarding the video...and he didn't seem to really care so much about the written portion of the site, and wanted to promote his work, of course, and other video-based content more for the site (mostly by mandate of Channel Awesome, which is a whole other story.) As a sort of response to it though, I was allowed to do a long-form editorial on Skyrim that I got a decent amount of flak for at the time to point out issues with Skyrim and it's perceived shortcomings to me at least as an Elder Scrolls game. That article sort of still exists...even I think it comes off as too ranty at times and making it five pages long is stupid on my part though. Joe was never really operating on a logical basis, but rather just the excitement and the passion at play. That is perfectly valid, but that is also entertainment first, and informative second. Most YouTubers are that, it would be good if they were honest about it.
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Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Iakus on Jul 21, 2017 18:30:55 GMT
That makes no sense. The war "began" a billion-odd years ago. We have nothing but vague references to how it began. *shrug* Definitional fights are stupid. I was defining the Reaper War the way the codex does. But if you want to define the war as everything that happened since the Catalyst put its plan into action, that's workable, if a little strange because the Catalyst doesn't perceive his activities as "war," and I'm not sure the Reapers do either. If we define the war that way, of course, my comment would then apply only to the current campaign. (And probably to previous campaigns, but we only have data for Javik's) And you already knew that. What was the point of your objection, again? I sometimes can't tell if you're genuinely missing the point or not. The point was that the war - or campaign, if you like -- involved huge sacrifices, terrible choices, and brutal destruction from the first day to the last. The ending is just more of the same. I get that you probably just wanted to go off on a space magic tangential complaint, but if you're going to quote and reply to someone, shouldn't your post have something to do with what you're replying to? Fine, then, what do you define as the "beginning" of the war? Eden Prime? Arrival? The invasion of batarian space? Earth? What does the Catalyst's opinion matter in this, it's got Loki's "an ant has no quarrel with a boot" attitude. But your opinion is a bit more pertinent here, as you seem to think there is symmetry between the beginning and the end, and I'd like to know how you define the beginning. I am genuinely missing the point here. Yes, the campaign involved the Four Horsemen running roughshod on the galaxy, granted. There is no way to avoid the deaths of some current or former companions. They can be minimized, but not entirely removed. But I contest that the ending was "more of the same" That's like saying a candle is no different from a forest fire. The stuff that came before affected a person, a group of people, even the population of a world. But the ending affects the GALAXY. Everyone, everywhere, even those not touched by the current cycle. And it affects everyone who comes after. Synthesis in particular. The choice is, quite simply, too big. And the choice involved uses, yes, space magic. you may not like the term, but it is accurate. It involves tech beyond the scope of anything introduced into the setting thus far. Tech even the Reapers, OP as they were, didn't seem to be aware of. It literally comes from out of nowhere and "fixes" everything.
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jaegerbane
N3
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Post by jaegerbane on Jul 21, 2017 18:39:21 GMT
And once again, you put words in my mouth. You keep trying to turn this into a binary question. No , not every detail is needed. But some details are. Including why the "on" switch for the Crucible is a pipe that has to be shot. I'm asking that you be clear as I'm not sure what your specific point is. I'm not 'putting words in your mouth' or 'trying to turn this into a binary question', my original question was asking what it was about the endings that meant they were 'poorly explained'. You responded with a list of examples that implied that you expected quite significant detail on the various events. I pointed out that the level of detail you appeared to be expecting is not normal for this kind of genre - down to wanting to know precisely how Synthesis worked or why that tube, when broken, caused Destroy etc. At that stage you started claiming I was arguing people should leave their brain on the shelf etc, which I blatantly wasn't suggesting at all as I specifically pointed out that, while the specifics were not covered, it was pretty clear what the ultimate result you were being offered was and therefore the endings being 'poorly explained' didn't appear to fit. FWIW I'm not suggesting the endings were particularly good - I quite liked the High EMS/Destroy ending because it drew a line under everything, but also partially because both Synthesis and Control came with a lot of questionable connotations which didn't really fit the overall story the trilogy had put forward, and I'd agree that endings that all sounded like realistic options rather than Go Mad/Go Cyborg/Do what you originally set out to do would have been better. But for them actually being explained? And understanding what they actually were? As I said, I didn't feel like I was in the dark as to what they meant.
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jaegerbane
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Post by jaegerbane on Jul 21, 2017 18:46:28 GMT
He was not the most pleasant person to work with, although credit to him for working hard to get to the point he is now. Thing is, Joe has passion but doesn't think a lot of things though, its less thought out, more on feeling. It's actually really interesting you mention this, as this is the main reason why I stopped watching his channel. I initially found him quite funny while at the same time making interesting points, but long before ME3 he reached the stage where he was ranting about random stuff that I wasn't clear on why it linked to whichever game he was 'reviewing'. Passion is all well and good but if it stops you from making a coherent review, it's pointless. It's a shame really as he seemed to do a lot with TotalBiscuit, who I still watch a lot of. He's very balanced. (the fact he's a geordie helps, reminds me of home )
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Jul 21, 2017 18:48:15 GMT
And once again, you put words in my mouth. You keep trying to turn this into a binary question. No , not every detail is needed. But some details are. Including why the "on" switch for the Crucible is a pipe that has to be shot. I'm asking that you be clear as I'm not sure what your specific point is. I'm not 'putting words in your mouth' or 'trying to turn this into a binary question', my original question was asking what it was about the endings that meant they were 'poorly explained'. You responded with a list of examples that implied that you expected quite significant detail on the various events. I pointed out that the level of detail you appeared to be expecting is not normal for this kind of genre - down to wanting to know precisely how Synthesis worked or why that tube, when broken, caused Destroy etc. At that stage you started claiming I was arguing people should leave their brain on the shelf etc, which I blatantly wasn't suggesting at all as I specifically pointed out that, while the specifics were not covered, it was pretty clear what the ultimate result you were being offered was and therefore the endings being 'poorly explained' didn't appear to fit. FWIW I'm not suggesting the endings were particularly good - I quite liked the High EMS/Destroy ending because it drew a line under everything, but also partially because both Synthesis and Control came with a lot of questionable connotations which didn't really fit the overall story the trilogy had put forward, and I'd agree that endings that all sounded like realistic options rather than Go Mad/Go Cyborg/Do what you originally set out to do would have been better. But for them actually being explained? And understanding what they actually were? As I said, I didn't feel like I was in the dark as to what they meant. Why is it considered unreasonable to know why the on switch is a tube to be broken? Or why Shepard has to walk into the subsequent explosion? Hell, why is it considered unreasonable to question why Shepard has to die at all in any of the endings? Especially after five years of "these are your Shepards"? Why is it considered unreasonable to want to know how Synthesis is supposed to work? Especially if this is a choice that is going to affect everything living in the galaxy as well as everything that WILL live in the galaxy? Not to mention it was blatantly put for as the "best" ending. Why is it the best? Then if it requires that level of explanation, it should have been left out.
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linksocarina
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Post by linksocarina on Jul 21, 2017 19:33:25 GMT
I'm asking that you be clear as I'm not sure what your specific point is. I'm not 'putting words in your mouth' or 'trying to turn this into a binary question', my original question was asking what it was about the endings that meant they were 'poorly explained'. You responded with a list of examples that implied that you expected quite significant detail on the various events. I pointed out that the level of detail you appeared to be expecting is not normal for this kind of genre - down to wanting to know precisely how Synthesis worked or why that tube, when broken, caused Destroy etc. At that stage you started claiming I was arguing people should leave their brain on the shelf etc, which I blatantly wasn't suggesting at all as I specifically pointed out that, while the specifics were not covered, it was pretty clear what the ultimate result you were being offered was and therefore the endings being 'poorly explained' didn't appear to fit. FWIW I'm not suggesting the endings were particularly good - I quite liked the High EMS/Destroy ending because it drew a line under everything, but also partially because both Synthesis and Control came with a lot of questionable connotations which didn't really fit the overall story the trilogy had put forward, and I'd agree that endings that all sounded like realistic options rather than Go Mad/Go Cyborg/Do what you originally set out to do would have been better. But for them actually being explained? And understanding what they actually were? As I said, I didn't feel like I was in the dark as to what they meant. Why is it considered unreasonable to know why the on switch is a tube to be broken? Or why Shepard has to walk into the subsequent explosion? Hell, why is it considered unreasonable to question why Shepard has to die at all in any of the endings? Especially after five years of "these are your Shepards"? Why is it considered unreasonable to want to know how Synthesis is supposed to work? Especially if this is a choice that is going to affect everything living in the galaxy as well as everything that WILL live in the galaxy? Not to mention it was blatantly put for as the "best" ending. Why is it the best? Then if it requires that level of explanation, it should have been left out. It's not unreasonable. But it is unnecessary. And it is also explained the same way most fantastical sci-fi stuff is explained, through the beats of the narrative and through foreshadowing. This is why the ending is too logical; it's neat and in a weird way, overly planned to be what it was though the actions of the characters, versus the reasoning of their motivations. We can poke holes into the Reapers purpose and why the Leviathans built them, but that is kind of the point, really...to the Reapers own alien design, what they are doing is totally logical until it is disrupted full by Shepard pointing out the other side of the coin.
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jaegerbane
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Post by jaegerbane on Jul 21, 2017 21:05:33 GMT
Why is it considered unreasonable to know why the on switch is a tube to be broken? Or why Shepard has to walk into the subsequent explosion? Hell, why is it considered unreasonable to question why Shepard has to die at all in any of the endings? Especially after five years of "these are your Shepards"? Why is it considered unreasonable to want to know how Synthesis is supposed to work? Especially if this is a choice that is going to affect everything living in the galaxy as well as everything that WILL live in the galaxy? Not to mention it was blatantly put for as the "best" ending. Why is it the best? Then if it requires that level of explanation, it should have been left out. I wouldn't necessarily say it's 'unreasonable', but I'm not sure why such knowledge is required to understand what's going on. So yeah, the tube needs to be broken. Given the gravity of the situation and the ramifications that such a choice brings... why does it matter? If Shepard needed to kick it, shout at it, fart on it - would that be better? What specifically is the link between the need to break the tube and the entire situation not making sense? Same goes for the others. The biggest issue I had was the fact that the non-destroy endings matter-of-factly put forward the idea of fundamentally changing the very nature of Shepard, or the entire galaxy's worth of inhabitants, and treating it as an equal option as stopping the Reapers. I can get behind the idea that the Catalyst simply sees them as equivalents due to it's perspective, but Shepard's response didn't sound in keeping with the character. But as I say, this isn't to do with the endings not actually making sense.
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Post by themikefest on Jul 21, 2017 21:44:48 GMT
So yeah, the tube needs to be broken. Given the gravity of the situation and the ramifications that such a choice brings... why does it matter? If Shepard needed to kick it, shout at it, fart on it - would that be better? What specifically is the link between the need to break the tube and the entire situation not making sense? Why Shepard is walking towards the tube while shooting it? That doesn't make sense
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linksocarina
N5
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Post by linksocarina on Jul 21, 2017 21:54:01 GMT
So yeah, the tube needs to be broken. Given the gravity of the situation and the ramifications that such a choice brings... why does it matter? If Shepard needed to kick it, shout at it, fart on it - would that be better? What specifically is the link between the need to break the tube and the entire situation not making sense? Why Shepard is walking towards the tube while shooting it? That doesn't make sense Dramatic tension of Shepard making that choice. It's also why I suspect they threw in the easter egg ending of Shepard being alive still as well only on that ending.
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Post by themikefest on Jul 21, 2017 22:02:13 GMT
Dramatic tension of Shepard making that choice. You can believe that, but it was stupid. Shepard being in the military for over 10 years would know the effective range of the weapon and realize shooting the tube from a distance would get the same result instead of getting up close and personal with the tube
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linksocarina
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Post by linksocarina on Jul 21, 2017 22:05:07 GMT
Dramatic tension of Shepard making that choice. You can believe that, but it was stupid. Shepard being in the military for over 10 years would know the effective range of the weapon and realize shooting the tube from a distance would get the same result instead of getting up close and personal with the tube It's not really belief, it's what happened. And it's a very story-book moment that has little to do with real military experience. Focusing on such realism is poor storytelling on its own, especially when shooting it by any metric of the word would result in him not dying, when the scene calls for his sacrifice to come full circle of his journey. Now if they altered it by having him blow it up...and then subsequently blowing up the platform, it would of course work better, but it would also be with problems because it then begs the question as why the whole Crucible doesn't explode. In the end, the choice presented is not about realism in the slightest anyway. It is writers figuring out how to make his death noble. Like Aaragorn releasing the ghost army of the King or Neo sacrificing himself to stop agent smith.
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Post by themikefest on Jul 21, 2017 22:14:38 GMT
It's not really belief, it's what happened. And it's a very story-book moment that has little to do with real military experience. Focusing on such realism is poor storytelling on its own, especially when shooting it by any metric of the word would result in him not dying, when the scene calls for his sacrifice to come full circle of his journey. Now if they altered it by having him blow it up...and then subsequently blowing up the platform, it would of course work better, but it would also be with problems because it then begs the question as why the whole Crucible doesn't explode. In the end, the choice presented is not about realism in the slightest anyway. It is writers figuring out how to make his death noble. Like Frodo volunteering to go to the Gray Havens or Neo sacrificing himself to stop agent smith. That's fine. For me, it doesn't make sense.
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